This went on in a UK court regardingUS Law, in my view it means, as stated by Supreme Court, that US law covers the entire Globe.

What do you think?

Moss

Lets keep it within boundaries, this is not a US knocking thread, but a valuable understanding of what is going on today in UK courts regarding the courts in the US.

Kidnapping??? Good God!!! They could have used the term 'extradition' at least... it's in The Times so I expect it's a fairly reliably sourced piece

The majority of people in this world may disagree with what are illegal and immoral actions by the US administration,

but while the politicians that we vote and pay for continue to refuse to make an issue out of it the US administration will continue to do as it pleases.

Say what you like about him or those that refuse to condem him, but if more politicians had balls as big as Chavez the world would become a much better place.

Problem with this is the " bully" theory.

If a bully has the biggest stick on the block, he will laud it over the entire playground doing as he will, until someone stands up to him. Now two things can happen here, either the bully backs down and a more equitable world emerges, or the bully uses his big stick until enough of the members of the yard gang up on him to take him down.

Better the little angels inside the bully get the better of the devils in his head, or the playground will get rather messy.

This is unacceptable.

We, as citizens of other nations, do not Vote for the US administrators nor it's law makers. We aren't in any way entitled to. Yet we may be held subject to it's Laws.

As far as I'm concerned - had I ever commited a crime against or within America, which I haven't - the British Court needs to state very clearly that such an act of kidnapping, or rendition, would be considered an Declaration of War.

Indeed, were I the perpetrator of such a crime, I would rest in comfort - relative - knowing that Britain's courts extradited me to the US. That's the way it works.

But for my gov't to do nothing while I am snatched by the US?! <deleted>?

I guess it takes real balls to hold a referendum at the height of your popularity to instal yourself as "President For Life"

Chávez on to a winner with referendum gamble

· Venezuelans back leader's attempt to extend powers

· Exit polls predict victory but turnout is low

Rory Carroll in Caracas

Monday December 3, 2007

The Guardian

President Hugo Chávez appeared to have won a narrow but convincing victory yesterday in a referendum on constitutional reforms which would cement his power in Venezuela.

Two government exit polls suggested most voters approved sweeping revisions to abolish presidential term limits and enshrine socialism. The opposition was sombre but did not immediately concede defeat.

Turnout appeared to be low despite claims from both sides that a yes vote would mark a radical acceleration towards what Chávez terms "21st century socialism". The 53-year-old president said last week he would rule until 2050, as long as he continued winning elections.

If someone get's kidnapped in Canada isn't it Canadian law that applies?

I'm not condoning the actions of any gov't which bypass legal processes and break laws (in this case persumably Canada has a law against kidnapping) but it does seem that laws broken in Canada should not be adjudicated in the US......maybe I'm missing something.

Example: Suppose there is a country where kidnapping by foreign law enforcement agents is legal. Would it then be alright for the US to send kidnappers to that country to bring back people accused of breaking US law even if there are laws against kidnapping in the US?.....the kidnapping would happen in a jurisdiction where it was legal.

Chownah

I suppose another example of America's rendition policy happened in 1989.

The US invaded Panama to arrest and convey to their own country a man accused of drug dealing. He is still in prison in Miami today.

The fact that Noriega was President of Panama at the time didn't slow "Operation Just Cause" in any way.

The term "Kidnapping" hints very strongly at the use of force. I can assure the United States Government through the good vehicle of this forum, that if they send a team to my Division in HK, try to kidnap some poor soul by the use of force and refuse to cease their actions forthwith. The lads in blue here would shoot them.

'extradition' at least... it's in The Times so I expect it's a fairly reliably sourced piece

Extradition is an agreement between parties, whereas Rendition is a supposedly surrepticious avenue of kidnapping, I say supposedly surrepticious, because I cannot believe this gov't does not know what is going on and as far as I know, they never challenged this statement in court.

It is a very reliably sourced, it is acknowledged by their supreme court, who state that the kidnapping itself is probably against the letter of the law, 'however you are here now, so off to trial you go'!!

The majority of people in this world may disagree with what are illegal and immoral actions by the US administration,

but while the politicians that we vote and pay for continue to refuse to make an issue out of it the US administration will continue to do as it pleases.

This is my biggest issue, it was in a UK court for Heavens Sake!!

But I am afraid old Chavez is a different character all together

Problem with this is the " bully" theory.

If a bully has the biggest stick on the block, he will laud it over the entire playground doing as he will, until someone stands up to him. Now two things can happen here, either the bully backs down and a more equitable world emerges, or the bully uses his big stick until enough of the members of the yard gang up on him to take him down.

Better the little angels inside the bully get the better of the devils in his head, or the playground will get rather messy.

I really cannot imagine any of this happening right now

Moss

The lads in blue here would shoot them.

The very response I would expect from any Gov't.

This is unacceptable.

We, as citizens of other nations, do not Vote for the US administrators nor it's law makers. We aren't in any way entitled to. Yet we may be held subject to it's Laws.

Of course it is unacceptable but it would appear this Gov't is rolling over, but what reason I have no idea, unless it is to be carried along with the bigger and more influential Statemen, Ramorras spring to mind, parasitic fish.

- had I ever commited a crime against or within America, which I haven't - the British Court needs to state very clearly that such an act of kidnapping, or rendition, would be considered an Declaration of War.

Although you are very important to us Kayo, a declaration of war over your rendition maybe asking a litte too muck

The fact that Noriega was President of Panama at the time didn't slow "Operation Just Cause" in any way.

Hope, certainly didn't

Moss

If someone get's kidnapped in Canada isn't it Canadian law that applies?

I'm not condoning the actions of any gov't which bypass legal processes and break laws (in this case persumably Canada has a law against kidnapping) but it does seem that laws broken in Canada should not be adjudicated in the US......maybe I'm missing something.

Example: Suppose there is a country where kidnapping by foreign law enforcement agents is legal. Would it then be alright for the US to send kidnappers to that country to bring back people accused of breaking US law even if there are laws against kidnapping in the US?.....the kidnapping would happen in a jurisdiction where it was legal.

Chownah

You are not missing anything, that is the point I feel, it is also I think against US Law, but their Supreme Court treats it with derision, by stating that, 'Oh well, now that you are here, we might as well carry on', the fact he was kinapped against his will, on foreign soverign territory and against their own law.

Moss

Extradition is an agreement between parties, whereas Rendition is a supposedly surrepticious avenue of kidnapping, I say supposedly surrepticious, because I cannot believe this gov't does not know what is going on and as far as I know, they never challenged this statement in court.

It is a very reliably sourced, it is acknowledged by their supreme court, who state that the kidnapping itself is probably against the letter of the law, 'however you are here now, so off to trial you go'!!

The majority of people in this world may disagree with what are illegal and immoral actions by the US administration,

but while the politicians that we vote and pay for continue to refuse to make an issue out of it the US administration will continue to do as it pleases.

This is my biggest issue, it was in a UK court for Heavens Sake!!

Moss

The very response I would expect from any Gov't.

Kayo

This is unacceptable.

We, as citizens of other nations, do not Vote for the US administrators nor it's law makers. We aren't in any way entitled to. Yet we may be held subject to it's Laws.

Of course it is unacceptable but it would appear this Gov't is rolling over, but what reason I have no idea, unless it is to be carried along with the bigger and more influential Statemen, Ramorras spring to mind, parasitic fish.

- kayo-

had I ever commited a crime against or within America, which I haven't - the British Court needs to state very clearly that such an act of kidnapping, or rendition, would be considered an Declaration of War.

Although you are very important to us Kayo, a declaration of war over your rendition maybe asking a litte too muck

Yeah, okay, but what a story to tell Jude's children in years to come...."I remember when we went to war with the only superpower in the world, over a fuzzy elphant pink rabbit friend of mine from back in the day"

But reading back, We can't vote for the US administrators, but as Robski correctly pointed out, we CAN vote for ours. If ours are not protecting our interests, then I call upon Robski to lead the revolution.

Been there mate it didn't solve anything, thing with Anarchists is.. can't get organazised,

So like all good revolutionaries these days I am screwing the Capitalisto's for what I can and making plans for a life in exile.

Seriously though, there doesn't seem to be anything that will stop the US administration continuing with their foreign policy agenda.

Legal intervention? Armed conflict? Financial collapse? Peaceful dialogue? Purlease...

Even if it were reduced to a core, it will still continue it's drive for dominance as will any other nation emerging to take it's place.

If the minority become disgustingly rich and insulated from the problems they have created and protected from the vagaries of the future, they have succeeded in their objectives.

They are following the same objectives the've had since the end of WWII only now the public is better informed, that's the only difference.

Why doesn't the UK government stand up to them? Because they support them despite any rhetoric to the contrary or rulings by the judiciary.

All world governments benefit or fail at the will of the US, but for how long? Is it a house of cards ready to fall?

The relationship between the US admin and those of other countries is dirty and incestuous and stretches back a long way.

They have our future already planned out, the laws are already in place to control us and if not our rights will be disregarded by force.

There won't be a revolution against the obvious injustice, there will just be a further breakdown in the relationship between government and the population the whole world over and between people themselves. There is no stopping it, you can only insulate yourself from it if you are lucky.

The only obvious solution to me is to switch off the television, stop reading the newspapers, grab that dirty cash and concentrate on the things that make me happy.

Sorry for my negativity, but if anyone has a more constructive solution or scenario I will gladly listen.

If they kidnapped and got away with it and took the person back to the US then i suppose there isn't much that can be done. As it would be construed as legal in the US.

However, if they where caught in the act of kidnapping in the UK, then surely they would banged up, as it is an offence in the UK and that is where the crime was taking place.

Wouldn't it?

Yeah, okay, but what a story to tell Jude's children in years to come...."I remember when we went to war with the only superpower in the world, over a fuzzy elphant pink rabbit friend of mine from back in the day"

But reading back, We can't vote for the US administrators, but as Robski correctly pointed out, we CAN vote for ours. If ours are not protecting our interests, then I call upon Robski to lead the revolution.

With me you and Robbo leading the charge.

But who to vote for, that is the question? They are all the same.

The only obvious solution to me is to switch off the television, stop reading the newspapers, grab that dirty cash and concentrate on the things that make me happy.

Sorry for my negativity, but if anyone has a more constructive solution or scenario I will gladly listen.

That was a sneaky addendum Robbo, but maybe not negative. perhaps a little too much Realism and I have a friend who says a Realist is just an Optimistic Pessimist but also realize that, 'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing'.

However, if they where caught in the act of kidnapping in the UK, then surely they would banged up, as it is an offence in the UK and that is where the crime was taking place.

Wouldn't it?

You would think so, wouldn't you!

But do you think this Gov't knew nothing about the use of it's airfields and airspace regarding, 'Extraordinary Rendition', which in itself is a whole lot worse than Rendition itself.

Moss

Robbo, the trick is not to overthrow the power, but to remove that which they want.

Burn the oilfields!

With me you and Robbo leading the charge.

But who to vote for, that is the question? They are all the same.

The SCOUSER

Seriously! He's got the posh voice, so the south will like him. He's from the Norf, so that wraps that up. And he knows his immigration inside out, so we get the Welsh and Scottish votes as well. And he's worldly.

BadaBing! We have our next Prime Minister!