Australian Aged Pension

[Nemises]

1 hour ago, rhodie said:

 

It's 10 years ago now, but I have a friend who was in the Philippines for 15 years and returned at age 63. Was on Newstart for 2 years until he got the pension at 65 and left to return to the Philippines with portability.

Nice!

 

Whilst on Newstart, do you know if they made him report in person every fortnight to his local Centrelink office for those 2 years?

[georgegeorgia]

1 hour ago, rhodie said:

 

It's 10 years ago now, but I have a friend who was in the Philippines for 15 years and returned at age 63. Was on Newstart for 2 years until he got the pension at 65 and left to return to the Philippines with portability.

Oh please don't quote things on heresay 

You have a friend who told you ,a friend they did that this but haven't seen your "friend" in 20 years etc 

It's based on heresay 

[Peterw42]

27 minutes ago, Nemises said:

Nice!

 

Whilst on Newstart, do you know if they made him report in person every fortnight to his local Centrelink office for those 2 years?

I think you will find once you are over 60 the in person reporting and looking for a job etc goes out the window, but they point you towards volunteering.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

18 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I agree - the Aust system is one where you must be a resident to be able to apply for the Pension. In order to keep the Pension while living overseas temporarily or permanent (portability)  you must be a 'Resident' and approved for Portability. Which means a Citizen or a Permanent Resident. You cannot lose Citizenship, but if you are away a long time, then Permanent Residency can be withdrawn - and you would therefore lose the Pension (and it has happened and will probably happen more). 

 

There is also a 'benefit' in regards to Thailand taxation of the Pension - the Australian Pension is only paid to residents of Australia - wherever they are living - that is why Portability (of Residence) was created.  And as per the Aust-Thai DTA, taxation of a Pension paid by one State to residents of that State, can only be taxed by that State (the State that pays the Pension). There is an exemption, and that is where the person receiving the Pension from one State is a Citizen of the other State and is living in that other State and is a tax resident.  What that means is that an Aussie living in Thailand's Pension is not taxable by Thailand, but a Thai Citizen/Resident (that part means permanent Resident) living in Thailand who is receiving an Aust Pension, can be taxed by Thailand under the DTA.  Yes I know there are some saying it is taxable, and some saying it is not - but IMO the meaning and intention is clear - the Pension is not taxable.

 

 

I think this discussion has been had - I have posted a thing before - can find it if wanted - that appears to say there is nothing in the Double Tax Agreement to exclude the age pension being taxed by Thailand. 

You seem to be saying that the Age Pension is paid to residents by definition - and if you live in Thailand but are not a citizen of Thailand - you are excluded. If you can point to something that says that it might be helpful. 

 

[Nemises]

16 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

I think you will find once you are over 60 the in person reporting and looking for a job etc goes out the window, but they point you towards volunteering.

Indeed volunteering is an option but they can't make you do that. Looking for a job and getting the dole is still available to you up until pension age.

 

 

[Lacessit]

41 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I think this discussion has been had - I have posted a thing before - can find it if wanted - that appears to say there is nothing in the Double Tax Agreement to exclude the age pension being taxed by Thailand. 

You seem to be saying that the Age Pension is paid to residents by definition - and if you live in Thailand but are not a citizen of Thailand - you are excluded. If you can point to something that says that it might be helpful. 

 

The age pension can only be taxed if it is transferred to Thailand. If it is left to accumulate in a Australian bank account, there's nothing Thailand can do.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

Just now, Lacessit said:

The age pension can only be taxed if it is transferred to Thailand. If it is left to accumulate in a Australian bank account, there's nothing Thailand can do.

I haven't been keeping up with it that much but isn't the point that now your world wide income would be taxed. So in theory they may not know about anything not transferred but it would be taxable as such. With all the intergovernmental information transfers it may pop up I suppose. But a lot of water to go under the bridge till it is a thing. 

[Artisi]

6 hours ago, georgegeorgia said:

Do they speak english?

Do you? 

[georgegeorgia]

2 minutes ago, Artisi said:

Do you? 

I certainly don't, I don't associate myself with a Country 

You sound very injudicious 

[LosLobo]

2 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I think this discussion has been had - I have posted a thing before - can find it if wanted - that appears to say there is nothing in the Double Tax Agreement to exclude the age pension being taxed by Thailand. 

You seem to be saying that the Age Pension is paid to residents by definition - and if you live in Thailand but are not a citizen of Thailand - you are excluded. If you can point to something that says that it might be helpful. 

 

I would much prefer to pay my tax liability on the age pension in Thailand, where in my case it's approximately 7%, rather than face KH's prediction of an ATO 32.5% tax rate as a non-resident for tax purposes.

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I haven't been keeping up with it that much but isn't the point that now your world wide income would be taxed. So in theory they may not know about anything not transferred but it would be taxable as such. With all the intergovernmental information transfers it may pop up I suppose. But a lot of water to go under the bridge till it is a thing. 

Part of the ATO's tax structure is the fact one can opt out of submitting a tax return if one's income is below the threshold, using a non-lodgment advice form.

 

I submitted the form three years ago. I have not heard from the ATO since. I have not filed a tax return for three years.

 

I assume someone in the ATO looked at my returns for a few years prior to submitting the form, and concluded there would be no tax payable in future years.

 

I would have to be reinstated in the tax system before I could be taxed again. IMO I would be too small a fish to fry.

 

As far as Thailand goes, I have enough non-taxable pre-2024 savings to last for 5-6 years.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

12 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Part of the ATO's tax structure is the fact one can opt out of submitting a tax return if one's income is below the threshold, using a non-lodgment advice form.

 

I submitted the form three years ago. I have not heard from the ATO since. I have not filed a tax return for three years.

 

I assume someone in the ATO looked at my returns for a few years prior to submitting the form, and concluded there would be no tax payable in future years.

 

I would have to be reinstated in the tax system before I could be taxed again. IMO I would be too small a fish to fry.

 

As far as Thailand goes, I have enough non-taxable pre-2024 savings to last for 5-6 years.

As has been said most  pensioners  don't need to lodge in Australia - pension is taxable but rebates would mean nil tax. There's the residency issue but lets not go there.

The only issue is that last sentence - I think what you state is the existing system - but I think now they are saying you are taxed on world wide income regardless of whether it is taken to Thailand. As the other poster said the worst case likely is pretty low tax. The way they could catch up in a simple way is if they linked immigration and lodging tax returns but that's all likely years ahead if at all. 

[Lacessit]

15 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

As has been said most  pensioners  don't need to lodge in Australia - pension is taxable but rebates would mean nil tax. There's the residency issue but lets not go there.

The only issue is that last sentence - I think what you state is the existing system - but I think now they are saying you are taxed on world wide income regardless of whether it is taken to Thailand. As the other poster said the worst case likely is pretty low tax. The way they could catch up in a simple way is if they linked immigration and lodging tax returns but that's all likely years ahead if at all. 

If I really wanted to mess with bureaucratic heads, I could bring across just enough non - exempt funds to result in a tax bill of 5 baht.

 

As you say, getting the entire structure in place will take years.

[Will27]

Just waiting for KH to get off of his meds and see all of these new posts.

 

Looking forward to 50 plus replies that we're all wrong, Paul Hogan and non-resident tax.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

10 hours ago, georgegeorgia said:

Please show me a case where it's being denied because you didn't pretend to "stay" 

All the cases of appeals are public on the AAT website if you want to read all of them just type in Thailand or Philippines as a search in the website 

Once you hit 67 and got the OAP  you can go overseas no need to pretend 

Anyone who wants to read the appeals head to the AAT federal tribunal website there's a stack of them 

Been there did that years ago - but I just did it again and AAT has changed the 'openness' of their published decisions. Now they seem to publish a monthly list of their basic decisions only. I previously was able to search for specific issues - not so much. And I dont have the time or inclination to do it all again.  Suffice to say that I saw cases back in 2010-2015 and it is a fact that portability was denied when someone had returned to Australia at Pension age. Perhaps you think I meant when living in Australia until you get the Pension and then leaving - not the case. I was talking about returning to Australia and then getting the Pension and then leaving again.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

6 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I think this discussion has been had - I have posted a thing before - can find it if wanted - that appears to say there is nothing in the Double Tax Agreement to exclude the age pension being taxed by Thailand. 

You seem to be saying that the Age Pension is paid to residents by definition - and if you live in Thailand but are not a citizen of Thailand - you are excluded. If you can point to something that says that it might be helpful. 

 

Here is the DTA - australia : article 1-5 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

 

Do you have legal contracts training and experience - I do - many years of it.

My read is the same as several other tax lawyers - but the truth is others have said they think it is taxable.

IMO are just touting for business and reading it the way they want to read it - it is ambiguous.

 

But at this point I have not found or heard of any Pensioner paying income taxes to Thailand.

The current law/rule is that if earned this year (as the Pension is) you pay tax this year - if it is remitted. 

 

I think the issue is not so much a legal one 'is it taxable' - IMO the issue is will TRD try to tax retired Expat's Pensions.

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

34 minutes ago, Will27 said:

Just waiting for KH to get off of his meds and see all of these new posts.

 

Looking forward to 50 plus replies that we're all wrong, Paul Hogan and non-resident tax.

STFU mate - he is asleep or something 😁

[scorecard]

4 hours ago, Will27 said:

Just waiting for KH to get off of his meds and see all of these new posts.

 

Looking forward to 50 plus replies that we're all wrong, Paul Hogan and non-resident tax.

 

Following is from a report in a source which cannot be quoted in Thailand, about 9 September 2024:

 

" Income earned inside Thailand during retirement is the only income subject to tax, while personal income from pension, interest, or other income sources in your home country is not subject to income tax in Thailand. This creates a 100% tax-free retirement in Thailand."

[scorecard]

1 minute ago, scorecard said:

 

Following is from a report in a source which cannot be quoted in Thailand, about 9 September 2024:

 

" Income earned inside Thailand during retirement is the only income subject to tax, while personal income from pension, interest, or other income sources in your home country is not subject to income tax in Thailand. This creates a 100% tax-free retirement in Thailand."

 

If correct, good news for Aussies living in Thailand and dependant on regularly receiving  OAP transfers into Thailand, and no other income.

[rhodie]

12 hours ago, georgegeorgia said:

Oh please don't quote things on heresay 

You have a friend who told you ,a friend they did that this but haven't seen your "friend" in 20 years etc 

It's based on heresay 

Go back to mopping those floors. Hopefully it'll help you develop a brain.

[rhodie]

12 hours ago, Nemises said:

Nice!

 

Whilst on Newstart, do you know if they made him report in person every fortnight to his local Centrelink office for those 2 years?

 

I'm not sure of the rules he was under, but he didn't seem to be under pressure to do much. Transition to the pension was very easy as already on benefits. Left within a week of receiving the pension.

 

Heavy smoker but strangely gave up when he returned to the Philippines where smokes are so cheap. Used to return to Sydney every 6 months as he only had 22 of the 35 working life years required so he could receive the full pension. Sadly, passed from emphysema last month.

[norbra]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

 

Following is from a report in a source which cannot be quoted in Thailand, about 9 September 2024:

 

" Income earned inside Thailand during retirement is the only income subject to tax, while personal income from pension, interest, or other income sources in your home country is not subject to income tax in Thailand. This creates a 100% tax-free retirement in Thailand."

Exactly what was quoted to me when I applied for a TIN at BKK Revenue department for personal tax.

My application was denied as I had no income from Thai employment.

[Artisi]

10 hours ago, georgegeorgia said:

I certainly don't, I don't associate myself with a Country 

You sound very injudicious 

Injudicious, of course that wouldn't apply to your original comment  "do they speak english? ", now would it?

 

Hypocritical in the extreme wouldn't you say? 

[georgegeorgia]

5 hours ago, Artisi said:

Injudicious, of course that wouldn't apply to your original comment  "do they speak english? ", now would it?

 

Hypocritical in the extreme wouldn't you say? 

I beg your pardon..... I never promised you a rose garden!

[scorecard]

18 hours ago, Lacessit said:

The age pension can only be taxed if it is transferred to Thailand. If it is left to accumulate in a Australian bank account, there's nothing Thailand can do.

 

From above:

"The age pension can only be taxed if it is transferred to Thailand..."

 

After transferred to Thailand, taxed by: Australia or Thailand or both?

[scorecard]

7 hours ago, norbra said:

Exactly what was quoted to me when I applied for a TIN at BKK Revenue department for personal tax.

My application was denied as I had no income from Thai employment.

Strange. I'm aware from personal experience that foreigners can be subject to withholding tax when working as a consultant (with a WP) for a Thai company; paid monthly and withholding tax deducted monthly.

 

The company had never before employed a foreigner, so they called the Thai Revenue dept., who asked if the foreigner already had a Thai Tax number. The answer was YES, then the Rev. Dept., advised to deduct withholding tax. 

 

Revenue Dept., officer also suggested the company concerned might like to (in the following January) help the foreigner to claim the withholding tax and that's what happened. In fact all very simple and the tax was refunded to me very quickly. 

[norbra]

4 hours ago, scorecard said:

Strange. I'm aware from personal experience that foreigners can be subject to withholding tax when working as a consultant (with a WP) for a Thai company; paid monthly and withholding tax deducted monthly.

 

The company had never before employed a foreigner, so they called the Thai Revenue dept., who asked if the foreigner already had a Thai Tax number. The answer was YES, then the Rev. Dept., advised to deduct withholding tax. 

 

Revenue Dept., officer also suggested the company concerned might like to (in the following January) help the foreigner to claim the withholding tax and that's what happened. In fact all very simple and the tax was refunded to me very quickly. 

 

i

If I had applied for a  TIN for withholding tax purposes I am sure it would have been  approved

[Lacessit]

4 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

From above:

"The age pension can only be taxed if it is transferred to Thailand..."

 

After transferred to Thailand, taxed by: Australia or Thailand or both?

It won't be taxed in Australia. While it is part of taxable income, it is below the threshold at which income is taxed. As yet, there is no indication the 32.5% tax rate for non-residents will apply to those whose sole income is the OAP.

 

It MAY be taxed after transfer to Thailand. Again, there is no indication the TRD intends to tax pensions from any country. They do intend to tax earnings.

 

Due to double tax agreements, it's highly doubtful a pension could be taxed in both Australia and Thailand.

 

I guess the first person to have their pension taxed will let us know quite speedily.

 

 

[LosLobo]

33 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

It won't be taxed in Australia. While it is part of taxable income, it is below the threshold at which income is taxed. As yet, there is no indication the 32.5% tax rate for non-residents will apply to those whose sole income is the OAP.

There’s a contradiction in your argument.

You mention that the Age Pension won’t be taxed due to the taxable threshold, but non-residents don’t benefit from a tax-free threshold.

 

Being a non-resident and having a tax-free threshold are mutually exclusive.

 

Non-residents are taxed at 32.5% on all Australian-sourced income, from the first dollar.

 

[scorecard]

On 9/22/2024 at 1:45 PM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Here is the DTA - australia : article 1-5 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

 

Do you have legal contracts training and experience - I do - many years of it.

My read is the same as several other tax lawyers - but the truth is others have said they think it is taxable.

IMO are just touting for business and reading it the way they want to read it - it is ambiguous.

 

But at this point I have not found or heard of any Pensioner paying income taxes to Thailand.

The current law/rule is that if earned this year (as the Pension is) you pay tax this year - if it is remitted. 

 

I think the issue is not so much a legal one 'is it taxable' - IMO the issue is will TRD try to tax retired Expat's Pensions.

 

 

Last paragraph of above very meaningful.