Penang To Impose Stricter Rules When Issuing Tourist Visas

[danfred]

Also, correction to quoted portion:

You can own a car and house (just not the land under it...distinction without a difference in most cases)

Thanks, I wanted to retract that as I remember I once purchased and registered a motorbike in my own name. I didn't use my name for the cars as we wanted the finacing option on the purchases and to my knowledge farang cannot qualify for verhicle finanacing.

[distortedlink]

This will be the last I will post on this. If you still think that a person cannot claim the credit on their income from a US company while living in another country, well, it does not really matter to me what you think because I have the IRS on my side.

I can confirm this having lived overseas in various jobs while being paid in US dollars to my US accounts from our US office, including times that I lived in middle eastern countries that assessed no income taxes. Our company tax professionals, several of whom are ex-IRS, were available to help us with our returns, and we all got the exclusion.

However, I believe that the guy working for a US company from Thailand owes Thailand income tax under Thai law.

I am getting this US tax credit also (based on presence test method). It all seems like a grey area to me. I mean this day and age where one has the option to "virtually" work from anywhere. How does tax law, residency and working status account for it. None of the examples online mention anything about "virtual" work.

My company has clients in 45 different countries (none of which are Thailand) and I service those clients via an Internet connection (regardless of my location). I do not have any business relationships or interactions with Thai nationals while performing my job. I am not doing business in Thailand period.

In the US if someone is a resident of California and working for a company based in another state you will pay taxes to the state in which you maintain residence (California)... even if you are working virtually from anywhere else in the world (vacation home, hotel room, internet cafe, etc.). Technically I am not a resident of Thailand and I am still a resident of California and continue to pay California state taxes.

Of course I don't know anything about Thai tax law, but it seems unreasonable to me that I would owe Thailand income tax given the following:

1. They won't allow me to have resident status.

2. I can't own land.

3. I can't own a house.

4. I can't own a car.

5. I can't benefit from any public service programs.

6. The money I spend in Thailand is already taxed in the US.

Why would they think I need to pay income tax?

Wrong:

We do have resident status. We are considered residents after living in Thailand for 6 months.

You can own land in some circumstances.

You can own your car and motorbike, I own my vehicles. All in my name.

You do benefit from public service programmes, such as road building, road repairs, use of low cost government hospitals, police service, the option of free schooling if you have a child of Thai nationality, street lighting.

You use the roads don't you? You expect the roads to be kept in reasonable condition, don't you, you like the urban areas to be lit don't you? If a crime is committed against you or family, you expect the police to help, don't you?

These public services are paid for by taxes. Why shouldn't you pay income tax or any other type of taxes in Thailand, if you live here and are benefiting from the use of public amenities?

Edited February 1, 2008 by distortedlink

[tijnebijn]

1. Taxable Person

as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand

and i am sure that is what most foreigners do...bring only enough to cover their living expenses. the question also arises that are the retireds living here liable for tax on the money they bring over as they generally reside for over 180 days a year.

Also, correction to quoted portion:

You can own a car and house (just not the land under it...distinction without a difference in most cases)

Retirees getting pensions do not have to pay taxes , because there are treaties ,

which most western countries have with Thailand , so there is no double taxing .

[kopite]

It seems rather clear, or as clear as it can get, that tourists are visitors. People here long term are not tourists. They work from their computers or mom and pop send a stipend to get them by. They have jobs or businesses, pay taxes or not, work or not, but they are not tourists and should not be awarded continuous tourist visas just because it is easy for them. The "millionaire" posters here can easily secure year-round visas as investors and us old guys can spend an hour a year renewing our retirement visas.

People here for the long term should follow the rules not try to just meander around them. If you are not qualified to be here find somewhere else where you're welcome. Yes, in some cases it will be a great loss to Thailand that you will no longer be able to contribute to the bottom line of the economy but it is their loss. Your new country of choice will hopefully welcome you with open arms. Please don't ruin it for me in your country of choice as the visa rules here change often and I may be joining you at any moment.

oh dear god

[risky11]

I saw this one coming a long way off... and it's only a matter of time before all Thai consulates and embassies have similar rules. That's why I'm headed to live in The Philippines at the end of this month: Up to 16 months on a single tourist visa without having to leave the country.

I'll be waiting for the rest of you to show up.

wow, i have been thinking about moving to the Phils too. 16 month at a time! good deal......

[jomtienbob]

This we all should do, instead of complaining here :

Send a written complaint to your Embassy (country of origin), explain the difficulties you meet with the never ending visa changes. When your embassy get enough complaints, I bet the embassy will make a formal "request" to the Thai Goverment, about their strict (failed) visa policy, and ask them to consider more "foreign friendly" changes.

You might say "they'll never change" but I bet more happend, than if we all just sit here and "weening" like a bunch of old women :-)

I've done it already (sent a written complaint, that is) lol.

LOS is dead = LOFF (Land Off Frustrated Foreigners)

But this is a long way before anything happend (if ever). In the meantime, all of us end up without a visa - so - we all move to neighbour more visa friendly country. And Thailand will loose 500-600 Billion Baht every year .....

Talk about Failed Visa Policy !

How do you calculate or where do you get 500-600 Billion baht from?? Isn't there less than 250k foreign residents in Thailand in total?

[thaibkk]

This will be the last I will post on this. If you still think that a person cannot claim the credit on their income from a US company while living in another country, well, it does not really matter to me what you think because I have the IRS on my side.

I can confirm this having lived overseas in various jobs while being paid in US dollars to my US accounts from our US office, including times that I lived in middle eastern countries that assessed no income taxes. Our company tax professionals, several of whom are ex-IRS, were available to help us with our returns, and we all got the exclusion.

However, I believe that the guy working for a US company from Thailand owes Thailand income tax under Thai law.

I am getting this US tax credit also (based on presence test method). It all seems like a grey area to me. I mean this day and age where one has the option to "virtually" work from anywhere. How does tax law, residency and working status account for it. None of the examples online mention anything about "virtual" work.

My company has clients in 45 different countries (none of which are Thailand) and I service those clients via an Internet connection (regardless of my location). I do not have any business relationships or interactions with Thai nationals while performing my job. I am not doing business in Thailand period.

In the US if someone is a resident of California and working for a company based in another state you will pay taxes to the state in which you maintain residence (California)... even if you are working virtually from anywhere else in the world (vacation home, hotel room, internet cafe, etc.). Technically I am not a resident of Thailand and I am still a resident of California and continue to pay California state taxes.

Of course I don't know anything about Thai tax law, but it seems unreasonable to me that I would owe Thailand income tax given the following:

1. They won't allow me to have resident status.

2. I can't own land.

3. I can't own a house.

4. I can't own a car.

5. I can't benefit from any public service programs.

6. The money I spend in Thailand is already taxed in the US.

Why would they think I need to pay income tax?

Wrong:

We do have resident status. We are considered residents after living in Thailand for 6 months.

You can own land in some circumstances.

You can own your car and motorbike, I own my vehicles. All in my name.

You do benefit from public service programmes, such as road building, road repairs, use of low cost government hospitals, police service, the option of free schooling if you have a child of Thai nationality, street lighting.

You use the roads don't you? You expect the roads to be kept in reasonable condition, don't you, you like the urban areas to be lit don't you? If a crime is committed against you or family, you expect the police to help, don't you?

These public services are paid for by taxes. Why shouldn't you pay income tax or any other type of taxes in Thailand, if you live here and are benefiting from the use of public amenities?

Roads (use, building, repair)... don't we pay 3O baht per littre of petrol ? Don't we pay toll on some motorways ?

Don't we pay high tax when buying a car ?

I would like to see the farang that is admitted to a government hospital, i really do ...

Police ... mhh, only see them when its time for a bribe ...

[Jingthing]

wow, i have been thinking about moving to the Phils too. 16 month at a time! good deal......

That's deceptive. To stay 16 months, you must go in for very frequent in-country extensions, and pay money each time as well. (In the Philippines.)

Edited February 1, 2008 by Jingthing

[jstumbo]

I've circumvented the Thai's by getting an APEC card (Asia Pacific Economic Conference). Took me about 5 months to get as police checks had to be done in all 30, or so, member countries but well worth it as it gives me a 90 day entry stamp on arrival, regardless of how many times I come and go. It's well woth having if your an Australian or kiwi (Austalia and NZ APEC members) as the 90 day entry on arrival applies to all member countries. It's good for three years and is renewable.

It will only be a matter of time before they crack down on the "abuse" of this card. This is a card to come to Thailand to do business, not to live here. They will probably have a problem with people getting back to back to back 90 day entries, just like they have a problem with people getting back to back to back tourist visas.

They will probably do the same thing with B visas for people that do not have a work permit. They will probably do away with the ED visa for people learning Thai. Spending only about 2 hours a week to learn Thai and get a visa is pretty easy. They will probably change it so that you have to be in class 4+ hours a day or something like that to weed out the "abusers" that are only using it to live in Thailand.

[baboon]

One sadly wonders how long it will be until there is also a huge crackdown on back to back O visas. I dont think being married to a Thai will count for a great deal in the future.....

You you and you however can rest assured the Thai authorities would not DARE to touch you. You are far to important to the country.

[jstumbo]

Course, it's all debatable (as we are and will) just how much these things tightening of rules will actually benefit their country, but then if you're coming out to Thailand for 6 months or so to have a ball after earning your big, fat hard earned wad of cash in the UK, it shouldn't really be a problem to pay your extra 100 quid to get the 1 year O Visa so you don't have to mess about taking crazy bus trips to Cambodia, Burma, Laos, etc every 30 days anyway (for as long as that lasts!)

Don't know how you qualify for an O visa. You must have a Thai wife? The Hull Consulate is "abusing" the process when they give out O visas. Anyone that is glad that they are cutting down on the number of people that using tourist visas should be hoping that Hull starts to follow the requirements for O visas.

[baboon]

Don't know how you qualify for an O visa. You must have a Thai wife? The Hull Consulate is "abusing" the process when they give out O visas. Anyone that is glad that they are cutting down on the number of people that using tourist visas should be hoping that Hull starts to follow the requirements for O visas.

Would have to agree with this point.

[Crossy]

Don't know how you qualify for an O visa. You must have a Thai wife? The Hull Consulate is "abusing" the process when they give out O visas. Anyone that is glad that they are cutting down on the number of people that using tourist visas should be hoping that Hull starts to follow the requirements for O visas.

You do NOT have to have a Thai wife for an "O" visa, the O is for OTHER ie. activities that don't come under any of the other visa classes.

"Other", could be investigating retirement, investigating business opportunities and a myriad of 'other' reasons at the discretion of the Consul. I would however agree that Hull is bending the definition somewhat with a 'visiting friends' visa, as that really comes under 'tourism' for which there is a proper visa.

BTW I am most definately NOT glad at the latest set of hoops provided by Penang, how are they going to check every E-Ticket they are given? Let's face it, it's not exactly difficult to edit a genuine e-ticket from a previous flight to provide something that passes muster at a visual inspection, or have they got an online setup into every airlines booking system?

[cclub75]

I think you're perfectly right.

And, by the way, it shows that this apparently new regulation misses the point.

If they really wanted to stop the "perpetual tourist" syndrome... it would be enough to say : no more than 2 tourist visas per year. Period.

And actually, this what they said during the "big visa shakeup" october 2006 : "more than 6 months in Thailand, you're not a tourist anymore".

It's a basic rule in many countries.

And they came up with very complex calculations schemes (creating on ThaiVisa probably thousands of messages).

Of course, it would require a little bit of serious work from themselves : for instance a central database with all the tourist visas given around by every consulate.

The point is : as usual they come short. They show apparently a will, an aim, along with some technical solutions. And then , few months later, the whole package crashes into the wall.

So : people are going to use the trick of the "refundable" air ticket.

And then, Penang will have to find something else to cover their own flaws.

It's a cycle.

It's a typical thai cycle.

if they want an airticket for international destination.............

where is the problem???? compare to all shit before ( visa canncelation of investmentvisa and and and)

airticket no problem................

go to a good agency, buy a onewayticket from gulfair or whatever,,pay 15 or 20k,,ghet an iata ticket no electronic ticket

when you come back from your visatrip give it for refund cost 500-1.500 depend on agency

[danmtl]

[could some one fill me in?

they just don't like white people. Philippines is far more foreigner-friendly.

Just to warn you the Philippines is more Foreigner friendly but some laws are totally screw up opening a Bank account is a pain if you have to get a pension check if you have cash to deposit no problem but be aware , check take m30 to5 days to clear before you get your money and make sure when you come here to apply for a ACR ( Alien registration card ) it will bring you a long way it take 6 months to get but worth it .Infrastructure are not as good as Thailand depending where you live Cebu is not such a place dirty , not friendly and very noisy many thiefs there too Davao is much nicer as well as Bacolod or Dumaguete i use to live in Thailand and because of all the visa regulation i left i am now in the Philippines good luck to myou my tel is 63 9054146630 if you want to reach me

[mike_rad]

Yup. I'm headed to The Philippines at the end of this month. Been planning it for 5 months now actually.

What's the part of the country that is the lowest risk from typhoons, do you know?

[Jingthing]

So : people are going to use the trick of the "refundable" air ticket.

Maybe not a trick. Aren't those kinds of tickets usually purchased with credit cards? If you have a credit card, you have some money. Isn't that usually the real bottom line with these crackdowns?

[mike_rad]

wow, i have been thinking about moving to the Phils too. 16 month at a time! good deal......

That's deceptive. To stay 16 months, you must go in for very frequent in-country extensions, and pay money each time as well. (In the Philippines.)

Only every two months, no big deal. You can even get a travel agent to do it for you for a few hundred pesos extra.

[ovenman]

So : people are going to use the trick of the "refundable" air ticket.

Maybe not a trick. Aren't those kinds of tickets usually purchased with credit cards? If you have a credit card, you have some money. Isn't that usually the real bottom line with these crackdowns?

That's debatable. I'd argue that the real bottom line regarding this crackdown is that the Thai consulate in Penang no longer has the desire to issue tourist visas. Period. Speculation as to the reason for this mindset can be found on this linked thread. That being the case, requiring applicants to produce an air ticket to Timbuktu is simply a nuisance imposed by the powers-that-be in the hopes that applicants will go away. If the consulate is still inundated with visa applications along with the certified, notarized copy of an air ticket to Timbuktu, they'll simply raise the bar on the goalposts, again.

[mike_rad]

If you are planning a retirement in Thailand these jokers shouldn't be allowed to put you off. I'm here retired and have no problems with the rules. I read this site and tremble at the knees a little each time Visa renewal time comes around but never a problem. Meet the criteria, keep your head down and enjoy your retirement.

But they're tightening those rules all the time. First there was the increase to 800 grand, and now I hear you have to present proof of income at every renewal (if you're using the combined method) instead of once only.

The way things are going they'll up it to one and a half million with no grandfathering!

[laxman1960]

This is not correct. Sunbelt has posted many times as well.

You do NOT NEED 4 Thai staff to get a work permit.

You DO NEED 4 Thai staff if you want to get your visa extension based on business.

Dan

Well, if you want to legally work for your own company, you have to hire four Thai people to work there also, which will cost you about 20,000 baht per month at minimum wage. That's not counting laywer's fees, management headaches of dealing with Thai corporate law, learning accounting, etc.

I ran my own company for a while. After nine months I found out that at the end of the fiscal year we had to have a specially licensed outside accountant go over our books to swear that our books met Thai government accounting standards and create end-year financial statements from those books. My reaction was "Books? We're supposed to have books?"

[mike_rad]

What? Were you abused by a visa runner as a child? Are you afraid that if you spend too much time around visa runners, you might become a visa runner too? Perhaps you should just pray to God for visa runners to give up their sinful ways, eh? Perhaps you could set up an ex-visa-runner ministry to bring them out of the darkness.

LOL!

[Jingthing]

Yup. I'm headed to The Philippines at the end of this month. Been planning it for 5 months now actually.

What's the part of the country that is the lowest risk from typhoons, do you know?

Is Davao Mindanao safe for Yanks to go to avoid having their heads cut off? I have been meaning to check out Davao. I like Cebu City OK but its hard to get excited about it.

[Jingthing]

So : people are going to use the trick of the "refundable" air ticket.

Maybe not a trick. Aren't those kinds of tickets usually purchased with credit cards? If you have a credit card, you have some money. Isn't that usually the real bottom line with these crackdowns?

That's debatable. I'd argue that the real bottom line regarding this crackdown is that the Thai consulate in Penang no longer has the desire to issue tourist visas. Period. Speculation as to the reason for this mindset can be found on this linked thread. That being the case, requiring applicants to produce an air ticket to Timbuktu is simply a nuisance imposed by the powers-that-be in the hopes that applicants will go away. If the consulate is still inundated with visa applications along with the certified, notarized copy of an air ticket to Timbuktu, they'll simply raise the bar on the goalposts, again.

Hey, I agree it is debatable.

But even this new hoop will surely trim the numbers of applicants, so maybe that is good enough for them for now. Some people will not have the funds for the ticket, some won't like the idea of playing that game with the consulate and the airlines, so it surely will cut down the applicants, by how much, who knows.

[mike_rad]

I think it's simpler than many perceive. Penang gets a lot of visa requests. The authorities there think it's too many. They look for a way to lessen the tide of apps. They add another hoop to jump through.

If that is the case then the same thing will probably happen in Vientiane, which appears to be the only one in the region, including South Asia, which can be regarded as anywhere near friendly.

[ovenman]

But even this new hoop will surely trim the numbers of applicants, so maybe that is good enough for them for now. Some people will not have the funds for the ticket, some won't like the idea of playing that game with the consulate and the airlines, so it surely will cut down the applicants, by how much, who knows.

Indeed. Time will tell...

[bill1960]

So ,in the case of Pattaya long term tourists, will all the visa run buses now be deployed to run a bunch of tatooed biker dude/football hooligans off to once a week Thai language school in Bangkok.

The education visa could be a short term solution but the challenge might be not to get too pissed on the bus ride up.

[mike_rad]

check out Guam just a short flight east. It's an American territory

So does that mean we don't get fingerprinted on arrival???

[kopite]

So ,in the case of Pattaya long term tourists, will all the visa run buses now be deployed to run a bunch of tatooed biker dude/football hooligans off to once a week Thai language school in Bangkok.

The education visa could be a short term solution but the challenge might be not to get too pissed on the bus ride up.

i doubt it. bangkok smells of rat piss

[ericB]

Well! just how easy isit to get a long term turist visa in EU for a thai citizen? Or in US? I'm sure of that it can't be done by going in and out of the border. The visa rules in Thailand are indeed very generously compared with EU and US.

Well , in France it's difficult as to go to the nearest Police Station or Town house.

Call it complicate, still I do believe it's easier than a trip to KL, Laos, Cambodia ....

What is complicate for a Thai is to ENTER (mean get a visa while being in Thailand), the day the Thai person get it and enter LEGALLY in France, then the hassle are very little.

For what I know and feel since 2002, is we are in a total opposite situation : very easy to enter, but very complicate to stay here legally.

In the poster can not read my barking language, I do precise my answer is for a thai living IN E.U., not a thai living in thailand wishing to enter in E.U. (things being quite different and requirements being totally differents too)