Working in exports- no work permit

[NathanV23]

If a US citizen has an import business in the US, is it illegal to come to LOS on a tourist visa and spend some time choosing a product line, working on packaging and buying and shipping product? If so, is the law enforced? I have a hard time believeing that all the farangs you see shipping large amounts of product back home at UPS, DHL etc. are here on work permits.

[Morgan]

Well you do have to declare that your trip is for pleasure only if you go for a tourist visa.Why dont you get a non-immigrant-( business visa then you will be O.K.would be better visa for you anyway. Some people on the board use them maybe they will give you some first hand advise.

Morgan.  

[NathanV23]

So I don't need a work permit to come and work on my business? I just need a non-im b visa?

[NathanV23]

Hi Morgan,

I looked up the rules for a non im ( visa and you need all kinds of documnetation which doesn't exist for a US importer who comes here to put together a product line and ship products. There is no Thai company sponsoring me. There is no Thai guarantor etc.

So I guess that takes us to the original question. i'm assuming its technically illegal, but I can't imagine it is enforced. how many people take product back to sell? You'd have to say that they are involved in work, not just pleasure, right?

If it was really enforced, when you went to UPS to ship $5,000 worth of product, they would ask to see your Thai work permit. Am I right?

[caughtintheact]

As you are not getting paid in Thailand, you should have no problem coming here on a tourist visa and lining up products and suppliers, unless a tourist visa doesn't give you enough time to complete your business here.  While you could apply for a business visa under Urgent and Essential Work, i.e., . Foreigners who come to Thailand for temporary periods of up to 15 days in order to perform urgent and essential work and those who come to attend a seminar may be granted a temporary exemption [to work permit requirements]

Note that in your case the following probably applies:

Severity of Enforcement. In practice the Labor Department is reasonable in the manner in which its enforcement procedures and foreigners who come to Thailand to negotiate business do not have difficulties although in theory they should have work permits or obtain an Urgent and Essential work exemption. But this leniency in enforcement is by grace of the Labor Department, not by an exception to the law.

Source: http://www.bia.co.th/chapter_19.htm

So if a tourist visa allows you enough time, then that is the best way to do it.  Caution:  Do not open an office here, but you might be able to rent the facilities in a serviced office company.  Do not go telling prople that you have no work permit - any time or place.  Avoid direct contacts with officials involved in getting your products exported...have the factory from which you are buying give you a liaison person (pretty girl on the staff of the company is best)  if you really think you have to go to Customs.  Do not get angry or get people angry at you as one may just decide to have you checked out with the Labor people.  Be calm, cool and collected when talking to Thai people.  

I do not ask you to believe anything I say.  You can if you wish, but to be certain of your position, I recommend you consult a lawyer, and I will recommend Bangkok International Associates (I am not associated with them).  Just call 02-231-6201 and ask to speak with Khun Ronachhai.  If he's in and available he will get on the line without further questions, and MIGHT just give you the advice you need without charge, unless the situation is more complex than than it appears on the surface.

[NathanV23]

Thanks for the advice!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Whatever you do ......DO NOT DO BUSINESS whilst here on a tourist visa. It is illegal and you may wind up in the detention

center pending your last trip out of Thailand because you will also be declared persona non grata.

[NathanV23]

Dr. Pat Pong,

I'm assuming you consider developing a product line and shipping it overseas a form of business, in which case I suppose I would concurr. Although if you look at previous posts, it has been pointed out that you would be receiving no money or pay here, so perhaops it is overlooked by immigration. As I said before, if this was enforced, every shipping agent in Thailand would be required to ask for your work permit before shipping any large amount of product.

At any rate, how do you suggest doing it by the book? There is no Thai company to speak of. You wouldn't be working for anyone in Thailand or abroad apart from yourself. So the documents required for non im b or work permit do not exist. I really don't see how you can possibly do it by the book and comply with the law. And I assume that 95% of farangs I see shipping at my local UPS are here in tourist visas. Any advice you can offer would be appreciated. Thanks.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Print off the last reply and reread it when the stuff hits the fan. Read previous postings about the definition of work in particular the part that says with or without reward IN Thailand and note the wording on a tourist visa  EMPLOYMENT PROHIBITED. Trust me, a tourist is a tourist. You MAY get by without a work permit, but without a Business visa the rules of Monopoly prevail..." Go to jail...go directly to jail "

[Bob Chittie]

Dr. Pat Pong.

Okay, so how do you get a NON-IM B Visa or a work permit for coming to Thailand to 'work' buying product, developing a product line and shipping it?

If your response is that it is not possible, because you're not working for anyone here and you don't have a Thai company to sponsor you etc. etc. then are you saying anyone who owns a business abroad who wishes to come here and buy product for that business must do so while risking going to prison and paying large fines? Surely the thai governemnt is a little more reasonable than that? Thanks.

[Morgan]

Hi Nathan I have a visa application form to quote/ In case of business trip a letter from employer and/

or business counterpart in Thailand. As you have your own company the first letter you do yourself setting out what business you intend to do in Thailand.

As for the Thai business counterpart  have you done any research to find companies that have

products you want? If so you could contact them and use any correspondence to back

up your visa application. Even with out a Thai business counterpart I would still go and talk to the Thai embassy and explain  

my situation and get advise  on how to proceed. Any work you do now on your

visa will pay divends in the long run.

Morgan.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Where do you come from Bob ?

[Indo-Siam]

Thailand is very happy to assist anyone interested in exporting Thai products.  The government is heavily pro-export.

You may purchase whatever you want here and export it, using a legal shipping organization (post office, or whatever).  You will not have any problems.

Without a business here that has an export liecense, you will NOT be eligible to apply for refund of VAT taxes paid for products that were exported - which you can do if you run a legal business.  But - even for legal companies, obtaining such refunds is a long, hit-or-miss prospect.

If you wated to go legal, with long-term entry permit and work permit, you would need to open a Representative Office - which is a special legal category.  But such an office can only be established on behalf of a coporate legal identity that exists somewhere outside Thailand - not a private individual.

A Rep Office must obtain an Alien Business License - 42,000 baht,plus processing fees (my company does the processing for 8,000 baht).   This license then allows you to obtain work permit and entry permit extension, and export license.

Unless VAT refund is significant to you, or you need extended entry, or you wish to sign contacts or maintain control over a corporate bank account here - I do not see any need for you to get work permit or non-immigrant entry permit.

If you have no place of employment here, receive no local salary here, and issue no local purchase orders or invoices, Thai government will not view you as being employed - any more than a trade show visitor who is here sourcing products.

I run a company that both assists foreigners with incorporation, work permits and entry permit extensions, and that also runs a division that provides sourcing assistance to  overseas clients interested in sourcing products or services from Thailand.

Good luck!

Indo-Siam

[dr_Pat_Pong]

In my view that is dangerous advice .Check with a lawyer or Immigration ..the IDC has a number of guests who ran foul of the law.

[Bob Chittie]

If you wated to go legal, with long-term entry permit and work permit, you would need to open a Representative Office - which is a special legal category.  But such an office can only be established on behalf of a coporate legal identity that exists somewhere outside Thailand - not a private individual.

A Rep Office must obtain an Alien Business License - 42,000 baht,plus processing fees (my company does the processing for 8,000 baht).   This license then allows you to obtain work permit and entry permit extension, and export license.

Hi Indo Siam,

Thanks much for the detailed information. I'm quite interested in the above quote. Does this mean that if I have a registered corporation in the US, for just 50,000 Baht I can set up a representative office which would allow me to work on exporting legally? Surely, it can't be that simple?

Once I have an alien business license, does this alone allow me to conduct my exporting legally or do I then need to apply for a work permit? If the business license is enough, doe sit act like a visa allowing me to come and go or do I then need to apply for non-im visa or work permit? Also, if I own a sole proprietorship in the US, does this rule still apply or do I need to own a corporation? Any more details you can provide in this area would be greatly appreciated.

Dr. Pat Pong-Are you familiar with this Alien Business License? By the way, I'm from the US.

[Morgan]

Hi Indo Siam, Im no expert on visas, but a bit surprised on your reply to Nathan. You say (i do not see any need for w/permit or non-imm ( visa.) So is your advise to nathan who wants to (in his words) Develop a product line / work on packaging / buying and shipping products to do this on a tourist visa.?

Morgan.

[george]

Hi Indo Siam, Im no expert on visas, but a bit surprised on your reply to Nathan. You say (i do not see any need for w/permit or non-imm ( visa.) So is your advise to nathan who wants to (in his words) Develop a product line / work on packaging / buying and shipping products to do this on a tourist visa.?

Morgan.

I do NOT agree with Indo-Siam. This is dangerous advise. Tourists are allowed to be here on holiday nothing else!

Non-Immigrant "B" is the requirement.

[NathanV23]

Hi Indo Siam, Im no expert on visas, but a bit surprised on your reply to Nathan. You say (i do not see any need for w/permit or non-imm ( visa.) So is your advise to nathan who wants to (in his words) Develop a product line / work on packaging / buying and shipping products to do this on a tourist visa.?

Morgan.

I do NOT agree with Indo-Siam. This is dangerous advise. Tourists are allowed to be here on holiday nothing else!

Non-Immigrant "B" is the requirement.

Hi george

I appreciate your take on it and agree that by the book a tourist visa is for holiday only. But among all the people who have said 'no, it is illegal' no one has explained how it is possible to get a non-immigrat ( visa for this purpose. As I think i've said before, there is no thai company I'm working for to write the letter. I do of course know many thais who own companies producing various products for exports. Is a letter from one of them enough to get the non-im b or am I supposed to be actually working for the company and receiving a salary from them? Also, as Chaing Mai Thai posted, if the non-im b let's you work, what is the need for a work permit? Thanks!

[Sunbelt Asia]

The only correct legal way is to form a Thai company( obtain  the work permit) or work for someone and obtain a LEGAL work permit.

If you're just talking to a vendor on a commercial basis, that can be grounds to be deported, if you have no work permit.

[Indo-Siam]

I'm sorry, but the reality is that virtually all trade show visitors, conference attendees, people coming to Thailand to perform pre-shipment inspections on capital goods assembled here, etc. are welcomed and can get all sorts of assistance from Thailand - even after entering with a visa on arrival.  

All the nay-sayers here refer to a "toursit visa".  These are the same folks who talk about "visa extensions" - which do not exist (there is no such thing).  Folks - if you are from most western countries, you do NOT get a 30-day "tourist visa" when you arrive.  What you get is a "visa on arrival" - the passport stamp says on the Visa Class line simply "30" (go ahead - look at yours).  "Tourist" visa is a misnomer.  The immigration rule does not specify "visa on arrival" as a tourist visa - but visiting tourists are a typical recipient.  If YOU check the "tourism" block on the entry TM card, then YOU are specifying that you are a tourist.

On your arrival TM card, do not check "tourist" - check "other" and then write in "purchasing trip".  or "visiting vendors".   As long as they then stamp you in (which they will), then you are absolutely legal.

The second key to all this is that you are EXPORTING Thai-made goods.  You can talk to Thai exporters all day, with bells on.

The PM himself, or the labor Minister, or the Chief of Police would all smile warmly as you worked out details of purchasing and exporting Thai products.

For my first 20 months living here, I worked regionally, and simply lived here as a convenient hub.  I travelled so much that I simply let my Class O visa expire,and simply lived on 30 day visas on arrival.  I always checked "other" and then wrote in "reside in Bangkok".  I did this maybe 50 times.  I never got even a second look.   You are not a "tourist" unless YOU say you are.

Concerning the Rep Office - the key to what sort of overseas incorporated entity qualifies as a "Head Office" is really up to your local Thai embassy.  AThai consular official must certify the affidavit that describes the nature of the head office (the affidavit must include various specified details).  If the Thai embassy overseas issues the certification, then no one on this side will question it (literally - they cannot question anything about a head office overseas that has been diplomatically certified - all they can do is review the documentation that must be submitted here that describes the office in Thailand).

There is a financial remittance requirement - you must remit into Thailand five million baht - one million first 6 months, one million second 6 months, and one million each of the next three years.  These funds are expected to be used to carry out rep office functions - including paying the staff.

If an Alien Business License is issued to a Rep Office, then two work permits are automatically authorized.  Once you have work permit, you are entitled to an employment-based entry permit extension.  These are not "maybe" items - they are items that WILL follow, if an ABL is issued, and you submit required application attachments (and demonstrate that required funds have been remitted).

I can supply additional details about Rep Offices - send PM requests to [email protected].

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

[Butterfly]

Indo-Siam thanks for your good advice. This is exactly what I have been told by the Thai Embassy here. Glad to see they didn't give me "bad" info.

Funny to see two "law & consulting" firms (Sunbelt Asia and you) here in this forum competing for advice. This is great.

[Pinkster]

Well who is right? Indo-Siam has given some great 'advice' here, certainly advice that seems hard to question?

I find it strange that Sunbelt Asia did not point what now seems (thanks to Indo-Siam) obvious out.

I can understand how the administrators would not want to be seen in print to endorse illegal behaviour, but if Indo Siam is correct, then surely it is not illegal behavior?

Id like some answers!!  

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Mr Indo....do you have any qualifications at all ?  Your advice is spurious and dangerous.  You and I will agree to disagree.

[Sunbelt Asia]

Here is the crux of the matter. Indo ( Steve who I’ve met and seems like a good guy) is talking about a gray area. If you delve into it further, you’ll find that its black and white, if the police know about you exporting without a work permit. You may be finding yourself at the detention center and being deported. Why take the chance… do it the right way.

We strongly advocate not taking any shortcuts in Thailand. I know Steve is trying to help but the truth is, it can be dangerous. George have you talked with your connections? Our three registered lawyers are all saying "work permit is needed"

[george]

George have you talked with your connections? Our three registered lawyers are all saying "work permit is needed"

Yes, and it's crystal clear. You need work permit to work in Thailand. Buying/shipping is considered work.

[caughtintheact]

The thing that seems to cause the confusion is whether or not "doing business in Thailand" is the same as "working in Thailand". They are apparently not the same. See below.  For example, If everyone needed a work permit to do business here that would mean that no one can come here to sign a contract without getting a work permit.  The requirements for doing business and employment are not the same either. If you go to

Thai Embassy Los Angeles it differentiates between the two:

"The Visa Section at the Royal Thai Consulate General in Los Angeles will be granting  Visas according to the PURPOSE of the applicant who will travel into the Kingdom of Thailand based on the rules and regulations set forth by the Immigration Bureau of Thailand and the authorities concerned. It must be understood that we will not issue a visa beyond the category which is appropriate to the purpose of the applicant's travel to Thailand.

I.  For the purpose of conducting business in Thailand (NOT INCLUDING EMPLOYMENT),[NOTE, CAPS ARE MINE] the visa applicant must include with his or her visa application any such documentation the Consulate deems necessary for consideration of the visa application which includes the following:

1. An original letter of invitation on company letterhead from the business host in Thailand;

2. A copy of the host's Registration of Trade which states the amount of capital investment which is issued by the Department of Commercial Registration with certification by the Department not more than six months earlier;

3. Documentation of the payment of taxes by the business host of the past two years;

4. Any documents that prove you are  traveling for business purposes;..."

II.  For the PURPOSE OF EMPLOYMENT IN THAILAND [CAPS ARE MINE], the applicant must receive approval from the Ministry concerned , this means that the employer of the applicant must first apply ( by Form WP3) for and receive approval for the applicant's employment through the Alien Occupational Control Division, Department of Employment, Ministry of Labour and Social Welfare, Mit-Maitree Road, Dindaeng, Bangkok 10400 - Tel. (662) 617-6578 or 617-6587 / Fax (662) 617-6576, in case of up-country the employer apply through the District Office or the Province Office , Once the approval has been granted, the applicant would then attach  this approval to his or her visa application and submit it to the Consulate.

Now the question is whether the folks in LAZ are on the same line of communications as the people here.

[Indo-Siam]

My only qualification is that I run a company that has four business divisions.  Descriptions of these divisions at:

www.thaistartup.com - Company incorporations, work permits, entry permit extensions

www.thaitradedata.com - Market and trade data reserach

www.bangkokstaff.com -  Sourcing assistance and special project assistance for overseas clients needing work accomplished inside Thailand.

www.siamwebsite.com  -  Helping clients establish an initial website presence.

I also have an unrelated division that imports consumer and industrial goods into Thailand for sale here (and I have an import license) - www.thaisupercool.com.

Yesterday, I had a staff member at Immigration processing entry-permit extensions.  Today I have a staff member at Labor Minstry, processing work permits.  This is standard weekly activity for my company.

I also do sub-contract work for other consulting companies, mostly with respect to processing documents at ministries.

For one client or another, over 16 months, my company has dealt with a  large number of issues.

My businress practice is built upon compliance with Thai requirements.  

In order to get a business-based entry permit extension here, you must have a work permit.  In order to get a work permit, you must occupy a job position within the organizational structure of some sort of legal entity here.  If there is no oreganziation that you are working as a part of, and you are not involved with receiving income here, you are not considered eligible to seek a work permit.  If you are "shopping" or "researching shopping" or "planning shopping", or "negotiating shopping" - FOR EXPORT - fine.  Thailand has no problem with that, and you are not considered to be "seeking to avoid compliance with Thai law."

Where you need a work permit is if you are doing something here for an organization, or earning income, doing something that would make you eligible for a work permit - teaching, providing advice, etc. on behalf of some entity that already exists in Thailand - and you have avoided getting that work permit.  

Thai Labor Inspectors, or Immigration inspectors do not cruise hotels, or markets, or Thai manufacturing plants, or trade shows, looking for foreigners to arrest or hassle for pursuing acquisition of export products.  It is simply ridiculous to suggest that this is a risk that original poster will face.

Likewise, if you are a sales manager for an overseas firm, and you visit Thailand periodically to make sales presentations to potential clients here (as I did for five years before moving here), no one in Thai government is going to give you a hard time.

Here is what is true - if you are involved in some sort of unrelated illegal activity, or cause high-profile embarrasment in Thailand, then - and only then - obscure interpretations may be pulled out of dusty corners to find an excuse to punish you.  I distinctly remember a few years back when two western journalists who wrote critical articles about an incumbent Thai government were arrested and deported for "violating their work permits" - because they attended a ministerial press conference and asked embarrasing questions - and they were subsequently found to be "working at a place other than the location specified in their work permits" (the work permits listed their office address as "place of employment").

Another point - if you ever make an entry onto a Thai government form which you know is false, and are then found to have lied, you may be in trouble.  So do not attempt to deceive anyone.  I never advise anyone to lie or misrepresent themselves to Thai government.

Purpose of visit:  Other, then:  "Tourism + medical treatment"

"Tourism + sales calls"     "Tourism + arrange exports"  "Tourism + explore employment opportunities".

If they let you in, and you do what you said you were going to do, then you are OK.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if you wrote

in "Other - perform illegal employment".  That is probably just about what you would have to write in to be barred from entry - and I will bet that an American would just be told to fill out a new TM card.  It is NOT illegal to ask to do something that you want to do, and then have them say no.

In most routine public situations, Thai officials do have some sense of the spirit of the laws.  Coming here to work out a package of Thai products to consolidate and export is not going to attract negative attention because it is not violating the spirit of the law - which is to protect Thai jobs (is a guy coming here to arrange export of Thai products back to his country stealing a job from a Thai"  Is this export-promoting activity going to help Thai employment, or hurt it?), and to ensure that workers who are working and being being paid in Thailand, with Thailand as their primary home, are paying their fair share of income taxes (and corporations earning profits here are paying their share of corporate taxes).  

Now - my turn to ask a question.  Would one of the nay-sayers please outline in detail a realistic, on the ground, one-hour confrontation situation/scenario that you would propose would represent the "threat" that the original poster would face here?   Say, in his hotel room, or at a marketplace, or at a manufacturing plant, or at an internet cafe, or at an ATM machine, or at a Western Union office, or walking down the street, or at the airport, or getting into or out of a taxi, or at a restaurant, or at a post office or shipping company?  I mean - let's get right down in the dirt, and outline for the supposed "felon"  any sort of reasonable scenario that might hurt this guy - if he is doing exactly what he stated he is doing here.

I mean this as a very direct challenge to the nay-sayers - and I will vigorously cross-examine/rebut.   Dr. Pat Pong - you please go first.  Please outline for us the initial moments of a likely confrontation situation that would mark the beginning of the "doomsday sceanrio".

Other nay-sayers plaese also ante up your doomsday vignettes - paint us a vivid picture of the initial confrontation.   You all must have had specific images in mind of the dangers that faced the poster.  Be specific about who, what, when, where, how, and why.  No vague generalities.

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

[NathanV23]

While I'm pretty satisfied with all the information I have received and feel comfortable in my current status, this is looking like a fun discussion, so i thought I'd jump back in.

Sunbelt Asia and Dr. Pat Pong, I think indo-siam and caught in the act have very valid points here. First, Conducting business and employment are clearly referred to as two different things completley.

Second, I understand this theory that work is work and all work requires a work permit. So are you saying then that for every person who wishes to come here and arrange exports from thailand, if they don't have 6 million baht to start a company and get on a work permit or if they aren't working directly for a thai company, then the thai law prevents them from conducting these activities?

If your answer is yes, it can not be done without a work permit, then surely you recognize the reality of the situation, that the thai government is okay with small exporters coming here to source product and ship it back home without a work permit and that as indo-siam pointed out, you'll only have a problem if you run afoul of the powers that be in some other capacity.

Furthermore, what do you suggest to the thousands of everyday people who don't have the money to or don't wish to start a company here and have no reason why a thai company would hire them, but do wish to come buy some product, ship it back home and sell it. Is this simply impossible and illegal? As I've said before, the reality of the situation does not always mirror written law.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Most erudite...but nevertheless you remain wrong.  You pay no attention whatsoever to Sunbelt's opinion contributed by three lawyers. I wouldn't continue a debate with a know all with very limited experience in Thailand and a bit of hearsay  information upon which you base your opinion. You are a danger to people visiting here.

[NathanV23]

Dr. Pat Pong,

I respect your opinion and you obviously have experience here. But you still have failed to answer the question, 'what option is available to someone who does not have 6 million baht to start a company and get a work permit and will not be working for any thai company who wishes to export product?' Are you really saying that it is impossible?