Which Government Will Be Better, Coup Vs. Samak?

[Pierrot]

However, many voters didn't care about platforms and policies and just voted TRT incarnate without giving it another thought. It sounds like that is the "strategy" you would have followed as well.

Believe it or not, at the beginning I was no great fan of Thaksin either. But it was after talking with many voters, who, as you say, "didn't care about platforms and policies and just voted democrat incarnate without giving it another thought" I would add "as long as they were against Thaksin" that I started switching allegiance. And so far, I haven't change my mind.

[Pierrot]

There is another post similar to this. The strange feeling one. I get so confused that sometimes I think I'm on the How many farangs are here for sex? thread.

"The problem is Thailand needs to find an individual who has this sort of vision and bring a large population of people together. It's a very difficult feat and i'm not sure if Thailand has the sort of aggressive leadership required to bring it together."

Absolutely. Long live the King.

Is the USA a Democracy? Bush stole both elections. This is not a shot at anyone, but Stalin also said something like - It's not the voters who decide an election, it's the people who count the votes that decide an election. He could have added "or the Supreme Court." Not that I have a problem with this. Why can't a good man play dirty? Watch this election coming up. I'm hoping people are so sick of what's been going on, and the bad guys will reveal just what kind of pigs they are, that the people will say enough. They'll have to trash all the computer voting machines and film each person verbally voting.

As Sartre used to say "hel_l is paved with good intentions".

The year is 2008, the world has changed, time to wake up ...

PS : To the people in charge of this forum, is "hel_l" such a bad word that you have to automatically change the spelling ?

[Samuian]

PS : To the people in charge of this forum, is "hel_l" such a bad word that you have to automatically change the spelling ?

No it's the software, as in the recent "exploitics", known as politics, introduced as Taksinomics, it was nobody, at least nobody accountable nor responsible, as in

Q: "so it was a lie",

A: "yes, but an honest lie!"

yes, there are only good people out there, all with just but good intentions, it's the riff-raff of the bad guys, the "lefties" or "troublemakers", would they only go home and let "us" do as we pleased to do.... "Welcome to Mugabe-Country!"

[Huey]

I vote Coup, just because I would like to see the Baht drastically devaluate.

[Huey]

If anyone was voting on a policy basis, PPP would never have got in!

That's just another great example that perfectly underscores the gap between many people's perceptions here and Thai policitics (or Thailand & Thai people in general I guess.)

-> PPP HAVE policies that their voters want. (Ok they're making a mess of it but the allegation was that they don't have policies or that these policies are meaningless)

-> Those policies appeal to a majority of the voting public currently. (Hence election after election being won by TRT/PPP)

-> Those policies are in some publications (The N.) classified as 'populist'. To the voters themselves however, they mean getting health care, a viable market for their produce, roads built and generally an acknowledgement of their existence and aspirations that the Democrats (and other elements with potential power) so far seem so blind to.

To sum it up: "Rural Thais Are Not Stupid!" Anyone ever planning to achieve anything in elected politics in Thailand better respect them!

Or pay them.

[Pierrot]

I vote Coup, just because I would like to see the Baht drastically devaluate.

As far as selfishness is concern, it’s not the worst reason I’ve heard

[Pierrot]

Edited for double post

Edited July 5, 2008 by Pierrot

[Plus]

I liked the first page of this thread.

It's the quality of people at the top that matters, not how they got there.

Usually it is assumed that democracy would eventually bring out the best governments, but if the best government is the goal, then I don't see why not accept fast shortcuts. In the long term shortcuts are unsustainable, true, but look at the time frame - ten years of bad governance can completely wipe the country off the map. There's simply no time for slow learning.

Surayud has been a disappointment, Samak will be a disaster - great choice.

Second page is descending into the usual TRT vs Democrats. My opinion is that this country is too corrupt to elect Democrats any time soon. A few bright people at the top there will never be accepted by multitudes of crooks and thieves that make up political scene here, and after Thaksin has successfully turned the whole region against Democrats simply out of spite, there's simply no hope for them winning the elections. Last December they had their best showing in history, btw, and the future is theirs, as demographics slowly change towards middle class and urbanites. That offers some hope.

[Shotime]

There is another post similar to this. The strange feeling one. I get so confused that sometimes I think I'm on the How many farangs are here for sex? thread.

"The problem is Thailand needs to find an individual who has this sort of vision and bring a large population of people together. It's a very difficult feat and i'm not sure if Thailand has the sort of aggressive leadership required to bring it together."

Absolutely. Long live the King.

Is the USA a Democracy? Bush stole both elections. This is not a shot at anyone, but Stalin also said something like - It's not the voters who decide an election, it's the people who count the votes that decide an election. He could have added "or the Supreme Court." Not that I have a problem with this. Why can't a good man play dirty? Watch this election coming up. I'm hoping people are so sick of what's been going on, and the bad guys will reveal just what kind of pigs they are, that the people will say enough. They'll have to trash all the computer voting machines and film each person verbally voting.

As Sartre used to say "hel_l is paved with good intentions".

The year is 2008, the world has changed, time to wake up ...

PS : To the people in charge of this forum, is "hel_l" such a bad word that you have to automatically change the spelling ?

I'm not sure what I said has to do with Sartre, who I could never identify with because he was too depressing, but I'd like everybody to wake up too

[Pierrot]

I liked the first page of this thread.

It's the quality of people at the top that matters, not how they got there.

Usually it is assumed that democracy would eventually bring out the best governments, but if the best government is the goal, then I don't see why not accept fast shortcuts. In the long term shortcuts are unsustainable, true, but look at the time frame - ten years of bad governance can completely wipe the country off the map. There's simply no time for slow learning.

Surayud has been a disappointment, Samak will be a disaster - great choice.

Second page is descending into the usual TRT vs Democrats. My opinion is that this country is too corrupt to elect Democrats any time soon. A few bright people at the top there will never be accepted by multitudes of crooks and thieves that make up political scene here, and after Thaksin has successfully turned the whole region against Democrats simply out of spite, there's simply no hope for them winning the elections. Last December they had their best showing in history, btw, and the future is theirs, as demographics slowly change towards middle class and urbanites. That offers some hope.

Plus, you seem to be a difficult man to satisfy. But I believe I found the right party for you ...

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I vote Coup, just because I would like to see the Baht drastically devaluate.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. (sincerely, actually, I'm not trying to be sarcastic)

This because your comment helps a lot to explain and put in perspective the poll results and general attitudes I witness on this forum when it comes to topics of this nature.

[steveromagnino]

If anyone is voting on a policy basis, the democrats will never get in. They don't have any besides getting rid of Thaksin. Before the election, they just managed to show a number of pretty faces, hoping the "old order" will take care of the "administrative" things. Since, it's the PAD that holds the front of the stage.

The only people who have the qualification to run this country are the 111. Anybody who isn't completely selfish should know what to do. After that, if the democrats wake up and decide to play their role as a (real) opposition party, it could only be a win win situation for this country.

Almost every party showed up with the same policies; free everything and cheaper prices. Read their policies; the only major difference was PPP was promoted as a proxy for Thaksin and intended to change the constitution ASAP so the 111 could get back into power and Thaksin could be let off. Most of the other parties that were also TRT proxies had much the same flavour of policy but didn't say too much about the constitution in case that wasn't the most popular angle.

And yes, there was vote buying but most of Isaan and the North voted for the same factions as they have voted for the last 20 years and also many love Thaksin whether paid or not.

ThHe Democrat policies were if anything not different enough; now everyone is going the same way with unsustainable giveaways of healthcare, education, debt forgiveness and all the other things that the poor loved about TRT and all roughly similar in end result for the voters although probably different in speed of implementation and cost effectiveness for the tax payers.

It is for this reason I say if for policies PPP would never have got in....because at least in most educated voters' opinions, the only reason to vote for them was because they are a TRT proxy and would bring back the 111; all other policies were not different and arguably worse in detail and actual level of giveaways than some of the other TRT proxy parties such as Ruamjai Thai for instance if I recall correctly.

If you want to 'claim' that the 111 were actually doing anything positive, please outline which specific ministers you felt were doing a good job and what specifically they accomplished FOR THAILAND (as opposed to for themselves, I am quite happy to fill in the details for you on that second one). The reality is 109 of them (IMHO) were as useless as the current batch in power, only real difference was leadership and also goals - the goal of the current administration began to change the constitution to bring back their pals; now their goal is to survive the multiple threats of global slowdown, oil price hikes, subprime fallout, inflation, lack of consumer confidence and the red cards and scandals so far of their administration. Some might expect some policy, but rather we instead have the fight to change the constitution, the insider deal to trade land for casino licenses (and yes, I know about some of the TRT plans and land ownership when they had a ruling mandate to do similarly but on Thai soil) and as a result the PAD as an additional threat.

I worked for one of the 111 families representing by a banned MP. I saw the inside. I doubt any of them would do much better.

Of would you rather former TRT Governor Jatumas another TRT insider was perhaps one of the MPs in power now (she wasn't banned, just connected via a court case to receiving bribes for the Thai film festival).

The damage to the Thai economy of the TRT years leaves us not much better off than we were in 2001; one wonders where we would be now had we just slowly and steadily improved rather than blowing our wad on pointless money losing mad schemes to shift money from the government purse into the hands of specific individuals in every single TRT endeavour.

Lest you think I am a Democrat, I will state and did state ages ago that there will never be a Democrat government as they don't have the cash needed to fund it (and it isn't just vote buying that takes cash, it is buying candidates, buying the regional powerhouse factions, buying advertising and media channels). In addition they don't have the reputation to speak to the rural poor of Isaan and the North; I point those areas out because TRT NEVER had the ability to speak to the rural poor of the south.

This rift encourages Isaan farmers to call Democrats 'paak sator' a southern bean (in case you don't know Thai) and there is indeed a good healthy rift exploited by TRT strategically at the cost of a few hundred southerners, well a few thousand really, which probably cannot be bridged by one party.

Since there are a lot more seats in Isaan, the Democrats really need a quality Isaan party to form and promote the long term sustainable interests of the poorest provinces for the most part in Thailand.

THe only issue is that Isaan is faction politics, and the stranglehold, for instance, of the Chidchob clan in the area my family owns land is almost unbreakable; so the only way to get that area's votes...is to buy the Chidchobs. It will take some serious long term effort to build a genuine voter base in Isaan - to me this idea that the rural poor are suddenly all worthy of talking to is somewhat rubbish; IF I was a dollar billionaire, I am confident I could become PM by simply buying the key factions, the key kamnan and teachers and so forth in rural Thailand - and I could probably get in without a single detailed policy!

So....to claim that PPP didn't get in by vote buying is not strictly true....but to understand what Isaan needs and to understand that the Dems are not going to get in without spending a lot more time getting serious....well that is true and I really cannot see that changing.

What I do believe is that 111 are good ridance, they were cr*p, in the words of the soup nazi, no soup for you. NEXT

Edited July 7, 2008 by steveromagnino

[Pierrot]

Steveromagnino, I have to retract one of my previous posting : some people who know do talk. Some of your posts should be a mandatory reading for anybody willing to join this forum, we would probably be spared some very dump comments.

Now your post is too long and I have too little time to try a smart answer. Anyway, it would be difficult to argue with someone I almost agree with. If all democrats were like you, I wouldn't mind to see them back in power. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it won't happend any time soon ...