Law Firm

[liberiosyah]

Dear all i would like to know about the law firm in Bangkok that gives service like Company Registration,Work permit,1 year Visa and Etc....

I am a foreigner when i called these firm that i saw in Bangkok post different company charegs prices..and when my Thai wife calls them and speaks in thai its totally different the price may comedown by 40%...Whats going on /???

And also we tried to called a thai owne lw firm which is owned a thai its much more cheaper ??

Are Foreigner nationality being charge from thai???

Or what is the differently from each other company ???

Need and Answer...As i am now confuce on choosing a law firm to start my Bussiness

Thank You

Joe

[kenkannif]

A lot of them are BS! I had one friend pay over 30K and all he got was a single Non-imm B (they promised him a multi and/or WP).

[george]

Have you asked Sunbelt Asia or Indo-Siam for a quote?

[liberiosyah]

Sunbelt prices are resonable and they are in my chooise list...but i need to know why are other are different price?? and as a managing director am i sure to get a work permit as i am married to a local...

[Sumitr Man]

There's a saying where I come from:

"You want to eat at the Ritz, be prepared to pay the Ritz's prices. You want to pay less, go to McDonalds!"

IOW - if you are looking for law firms out of the Bangkok Post or Yellow Pages, don't hold out for too much.

OTH, both Sunbelt and Siam-Indo do appear to be above board [and good]- and not too expensive. Alternatively, the British Embassy has a list of lawyers you may wish to give a call.

As to why your wife is getting quoted less for speaking in Thai than you are in English, only the person who answered the phone can do that: but next time, why not phone Thai Inter and see if the same trick works...

TiT

PS - IMHE a BP or Yellow Pages law firm would not be able to guarantee you a WP, nor will they be able to answer many of your questions. They'll only be able to sell you an off-the-shelf pre-registered company.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Sunbelt prices are resonable and they are in my chooise list...but i need to know why are other are different price?? and as a managing director am i sure to get a work permit as i am married to a local...

I wouldn't be too inclined to think a work permit is an entitlement based on marriage to a Thai. Reality is gonna arrive fast.

[kanbur1]

I suggest that if you are farang you choose an expat-run company. A lot of the advertisers in the Bangkok Post are "back of the noodle shop" operations. Reputable and well-established companies in Bangkok are:

Sunbelt Asia: www.sunbeltasia.com

Indo-Siam: www.indo-siam.com

The big advantage with using expat-run companies is that they will have a better understanding of your requirements and can explain the process to you in a language that you can understand. They also tend to be more reliable.

You could ggo for the cheapest option, but in Thailand you get what you pay for. You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

Hope this helps.

[Indo-Siam]

I'll toss in a few thoughts - not in any particular order.

1) I finally figured out that what my company sells is not company start-up services. What we really sell is time - we sell people's time back to them. What I want to do is charge the opportunity cost of the client's time. One thing I learned after a while was - I'm not particularly interested in the people who are only interested in finding the lowest cost provider. The lowest rent (and thus least profitable) clients are usually the ones that have the highest maintenance costs. They skirt the edge of every rule, and are often dodgy types that will end up giving us a black mark at the Thai government processing offices. I now specifically nurture a reputation that my firm has built with some of the ministry officials - they know that if we are handling a client, that client's "package" is solid - not marginal. This was one of the reasons I gave up advertising in the Bangkok Post - we got lots of calls, but too many of them were from bums - dodgy bottom feeders who were just looking for the lowest cost way to scrape by. I'm delighted if my competitors get bogged down with such disaster cases - that keeps them tied down.

2) So - pricing levels are somewhat operative in defining the type of clients that we do take. And - we offer some services that set us a bit a part - but which are only useful to a minority of clients. We offer an integrated set of services - bookeeping, website development, business intelligence, office hosting, staff recruitment. I have a motorcycle courier on staff, so that clients don't have to come to our office - he carries documents, and passports/work permits back and forth.

3) At the extreme, we offer services for people who are VERY time constrained. As in - they wire us a certain amount, sight unseen. They tell us just: what company name they want, what amount of initial capitalization, and what company objectives they want included. We then provide business address, directors, and seven shareholders - and we go register their company. If they want, we can also go find them a permanent office, and furnish it - right down to the King's portrait, furniture, computers, printers and software, phone and ADSL lines, and paper clips. Client then lands in Bangkok, meets us - and we then turn over to them a turnkey company - with office. They then arrange for their own slate of directors and shareholders to replace our initial group - we execute the regsitration change - and they now have the company they want, where they want it, and with the directors and shareholders they want. And - it was completely painless for them - they just applied money to make their hassles go away.

4) We also vary our prices somewhat throughout the year - to balance supply and demand. Summers are quiet - demand is low, we lower our prices. Fall and spring are busy - when we get a full plate of clients, I ratchet up our prices to select out only higher-value clients - if we are going to be maxed out, we might as well be working for the best-paying clients that will have us.

5) Service (thinking) outside the box. If you want plain vanilla, there are lots of "bucket shops" out there. We try to satisfy particular niche needs. Example: At fairly low cost, we can reserve a company name, and file a Memorandum of Association for a client. We can then put together all the rest of the documents, collect the signatures, and be one day away from completing incorporation - and we then "hold fire" and wait in that "poised to strike" mode until customer decides to pull the trigger - maybe six-months later. For various reason, this sort of approach might be needed by some clients - and they can't even get other companies to grasp what they want. But we can - for a fee.

6) Setting - and then meeting - expectations. I try to cultivate a reputation for being able to lay out a timeline, with all key events laid out (including some hidden factors), and - if client accepts - what unfolds meets their expectations. This doesn't sound like much - but we regularly inherit "riccochet" clients who have fled from competitors, after they got fed up with unexpected surprises and delays - and after hearing their stories, I'm amazed at the total lack of process at some other service providers. It sounds like some companies just stumble along and occasionally manage to complete a process through blind chance.

'You want cheap? Go somewhere else. 'You want fast? - talk to us.

Many service providers will give you what you ask for. My company will at least try to guide you into following the path you SHOULD HAVE asked for.

So - I haven't provided any concrete answers - but I've given some insights into some of the behind-the scenes-philosophy.

Cheers!

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

Bangkok

[email protected]

www.thaistartup.com

[Sunbelt Asia]

In reference to..a lower rate if your wife calls and speaks Thai.I guarantee that would never happen at our firm. Our rates are so low for an expat, they couldn't be possibly lower for anyone else even Thai. :-)

Our company philosophy is to help as many people we can but give accurate advice. Yes that even means working with almost everybody. Steve is right, bootstrap companies do take time but certainly they are grateful once they have a company and work permit. We feel they should have the same rights as a well financed company. If they are looking to be legal and pay tax as a corporation and individual then certainly they deserve better treatment than people working without a work permit. If they are looking to be a productive part of Thai society, thats good enough for us to process their paperwork and let the Thai government decide if they are accepted. They must be as we never had someone not accepted. Fortunately we get the multinational companies that want regional offices as well. They certainly seem to go much smoother.

In business, generally a managing director has a decision to make. Have low rates and savings for the client or offer a premium service and be on the high end. Now as a businessman, the format that makes the most sense is be more expensive and offer service. Certainly is less hassle and more profitable!

We feel that if you offer a low rate, then certainly you have to work harder. Our philosophy is different that we strive to save time but we choose to forsake time for ownership security. If the foreigner is looking to get a company formed, we protected his interests, so they always stay happy. Hence he or She will come back and give us referrals. Believe me when you are using the company as a vehicle to create cash flow or purchase real estate or house, it's better to think what the worst outcome will be (i.e, was kicked out by wife or girlfriend) then saving a few more days and protect yourself. Relationships come and go but you and your assets should stay. We only charge 3000 baht extra for preferred share setup but believe me, the headache that we earned is a lot more...more like 30,000 baht worth!

Yes speed is important and that's why we have expanded now to eight licensed lawyers, 5 paralegal and 3 messengers. We feel however that protection of the foreigner is more important than even speed. For instance it now takes 3 extra days to get approval for preferred/ordinary shares. The Director-General of the Department of Commercial Registration must sign off on the by-laws. We feel though for the extra three days and the officer checking every word is well worth it versus using standard by-laws as the different class of shares gives extra protection to the foreigner. It takes a lawyer who is well- versed in corporate law to properly set up a company to protect a foreigners interests, especially when they are a minority shareholder.

As for getting work from other expats leaving other firms. We do as well, most are just fed up paying for a renewal of a work permit for 20,000 Baht when we charge 3,800 for the renewal. The outcome is the same, they get the work permit or renewal of their extension of stay visa most of the time, they tell us we did it faster and of course they saved money.

I've never seen a Managing Director refused a work permit. As long as you have a 2 million baht registered company and are paid 45,000 Baht a month( as you are married), you should get a WP.

www.sunbeltasia.com

[haha]

about 3 years ago before they allowed retirement visas at age 50, I was thinking of ways to get a one year visa.

I mentioned my desire to get a one year visa to several of my friends. one of them told me that he was getting ready to get his retirement visa because he had just reached age 55. and that he was going to stop his business here in thailand.

when he told me that, I asked him if he would transfer ownership of his business to me. he said yes. in fact, he agreed to give his business to me free. ..I couldn't believe my ears. this was one nice guy.

with a established business here in thailand, I thought to myself that I should be able to get a one year visa with no problems.

so, off we went to SMC at the pacific park plaza near the landmark hotel. ..this is where my friend originally paid 15k baht to setup his business.

anyway, we asked the people there that we wanted to transfer the business from my friend to me, or to just add me onto the list of directors whichever was cheaper.

the lady there replied that to do either of the above would cost us another 15k baht.

we then said 15k baht is the cost of setting up a new business, so shouldn't the cost of transferring one be cheaper?

she replied that 15k baht is the price of transferring. the cost for setting up a new business is now 45k baht.

I then said quote, "your ad in the newspaper says you charge 15k baht for opening up a new business."

she replied that the ad needed to be updated to reflect the new pricing scheme that her company (SMC) was planning on implementing.

upon hearing the new pricing scheme of SMC, we decided to not continue with the transfer.

it's been about 3 years now since the scenario occurred. and the last time I bothered to look at their ad in the newspaper, I still see the price of setting up a business listed as being 15k baht.

[ArtfulD]

"I've never seen a Managing Director refused a work permit. As long as you have a 2 million baht registered company and are paid 45,000 Baht a month( as you are married), you should get a WP."

If I set up a guest house company do I have to apply for a WP to stay in Thailand and thus pay myself 45 000 a month? If I was content to be a director but recieve no wages is that possible and staying under a different visa? My folks can stay under a retirement visa with no problems, but I need to arrange something different. We are happy to do some limited guest house stays to keep a company ticking over, but not to the extent of making enough profit to live off (other business interests take care of that). Thus my goal would be : Set up LLC to purchase guest house. Folks live under retirement Visa there, I get some other visa as director to stay there but not intent on paying myself a wage. Take guest house business only during peak season.

[Sumitr Man]

If I was content to be a director but recieve no wages is that possible and staying under a different visa?

This is a toughie. Most people (farangs) in Thailand are under the assumption that one needs to earn X-amount [say Bt. 50k] in order to be entitled to apply for the WP. The reality is a little different. What is required is evidence of your having having paid tax on that sum; which does not necessarily mean that you need to be paid it. However, in any declaration of income [to government officials] you'll need to declare that your salary is, at minimum, the X-amount sum required. You then need to ensure you pay tax on that declared sum. This would be the case, regardless of whether or not you have, in fact, been paid less.

Having said that, you set out another problem, namely:

We are happy to do some limited guest house stays to keep a company ticking over, but not to the extent of making enough profit to live off (other business interests take care of that

it is unlikely, given this scenario, that any WP provided to you would be extended beyond the initial first year. That said, Steve (at Indo-Siam) could give you some very good advice on this.

SM

[Indo-Siam]

Anyone can be a director of a company - regardless of nationality, or Immigration status.

A director need not be a shareholder, nor an employee of the company.

A shareholder may serve as a director without being an employee.

There are some situations (wsuch as contract signings, and even controlling a Thai corporate bank account - at some banks), where a non-immigrant visa and work permit are required. As long as you have some other director who can sign in these situations, you are OK.

You can get a work permit without any particular salary requirements. Labor Ministry does not care about what salary you declare - it is Immigration that cares.

Good luck!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[Sunbelt Asia]

Y Labor Ministry does not care about what salary you declare - it is Immigration that cares.

They do if you apply under condition 5. I myself am under a multi entry non immigrant visa as I travel in and out of Thailand so no need to apply for the extension of stay based on business even though I have 6 foreign employees that have the extension of stay. Just never bother with the hassle of immigration as I travel so much anyway.

However on my renewal of my work permit, the Labor Ministry just this past Friday wanted to see proof that I paid taxes in the past year. So they do care what salary and tax that was paid.

It has to be as my work permit is under the condition... “minimum salary of 30,000 per month and minimum tax paid of 18,000 per year. “

The criteria for a work permit is that if you are a director seeking employment, the registered capital must be 2 million baht. (Notice I said director.... an employee who is NOT also a director then the 2 million baht registered capital is not required)

As for an employee you must meet only ONE of these conditions

1. Working for an establishment with a registered capital of at

least paid up 2,000,000 Baht. One expatriate can be hired for every 2,000,000

Baht of capital but not more than 10 expatriates.

In our case we are a 4.3 million baht paid up capital but have 6 foreigners so we don't qualify as we would need 10 million paid up capital.

(Please note this is NOT a requirement. If you can't meet this condition... fine simply go to the next condition.)

2. Working in an establishment, which has already paid income tax

for juristic company to the Revenue Department in the past 3 years not

less than 5,000,000 Baht. For every 5,000,000 Baht tax payment is

allowed to hire 1 expatriate.

In our case we did not pay 30 million in tax in the last 3 years so we don't qualify for this condition. We did pay 650,000 Baht corporate tax but that don't even get us a lollipop. :-)

(Don't qualify... no need to panic, go to #3)

3. Working for an establishment, which engages in export business

and remit foreign currency of at least the equivalent of 3,000,000 Baht

last year. For every 3,000,000 Baht, an establishment is allowed to

hire 1 expatriate but not more than 3 expatriates.

Were not a export company so no help here.

( Doesn't help? Go to #4)

4. Working in an establishment, which employs 50 Thai employees.

An establishment is allowed to hire 1 expatriate for every 50 Thai

employees but not more than 5 expatriates in total.

We employ 32 Thais but would need to hire 250 Thais to get 5 Work permits We still would have to let one foreigner go, as its a max of 5 foreigners, so we go to the next condition.

( Still no help...go to #5)

5. An expatriate having an income and duty to pay personal income

tax to the Revenue Department of equivalent or more than 18,000 Baht, or

already paid personal income tax in the past year of equivalent or more

than 18,000 Baht.

( This is where most applicants qualify... single getting 30,000 Baht personal income per month or married getting a salary of 45,000 Baht) Yes note the minimum salary of 60,000 Baht for an American does not apply or 50,000 Baht for an European. as this is the Labor Ministries conditions NOT the Immigration.

This is where I qualify.

Notice in #1,2,3 or #5 no mention of having 4 Thai employees per work permit. This requirement is for the one year extension of stay visa. Don't get confused :-)

You still don't qualify with one of these 5 conditions, then don't panic . The Authorized Officers, on reasonable grounds, may consider work permit approval, renewal, and modification of employment descriptions and positions or locations of workplace regardless of restrictions on the number of expatriates stated above, if the work falls under the followings:

1. Representative office conducting quality control, procurement,

or marketing research.

2. The work in investment consulting, administrative consulting,

technical and technology, or periodical internal audit.

3. Tourism representatives who bring in foreigners to travel in

Thailand.

4. International financial institutions approved by the Bank of

Thailand.

5. Temporary business of entertainment, religious, social welfare,

cultural or sporting without intention to make profit and paying income

tax to the government.

6. Working as a contractor on projects with the governmental bodies

or state enterprises.

7. Work using mostly local raw material as an essential component

in the production process or work that can reduce the use of imported

raw material.

8. Work supporting export of Thai products.

9. Work, which brings new technology, which Thai people are not

capable of, in order to distribute and transfer to Thai people.

10. Work in the area where there is a shortage of Thai labour.

11. Having a residency in the Kingdom.

12. Being a married couple with Thai citizen, with legally married

registration, publicly cohabiting as husband and wife, and

with a legal profession, which is socially respectable.

Now I could apply under #2 of the special conditions but in my case, no need.

We had one client last week where the he was from Belgium. The Labor Ministry said they would only approve the WP if the salary was increased from 40K to 50K per month. First time, our lawyers had heard that from the Labor Ministry. The client said "no problem rather than argue" :-) But of course the salary of 50K per month is NOT required for a WP as per the regulation.

www.sunbeltasia.com

[LivinLOS]

I would just like to say that I am very grateful for the efforts of Indo-Siam and SunBelt here on this forum, you guys are amazing at the level of help and advice you give out and I fully respect your personal business approaches.

If I ever needed business legal advice here (real advice not just forum research on what to ask) you guys would be the only people I would be contacting.

Thanks for taking the time out of your work to help us.

[Sunny Valentine]

Now, Sunbelt, I understand that getting the Work permit under clause #5 would be possible.

But, makes me wonder, how do you get the necessary b Visa then.

I understand that most if not all embassies at least in Asia only give one-time B Visas.

So the sitaution would than be having to travel to an Embassy / Consulate every 3 Month, for 2 Days, and then reapply for the WP. Seems like a ###### of of an effort!

Please correct me if I am wrong!

Sunny

[Sunbelt Asia]

LivinLOS: Happy to help out when I can. Thanks for the comments.

Sunny: Every consulate and Embass in the World( except one) will issue a multi entry one year visa if you have a work permit. The exception is Singapore.

So once you have the multi entry, you have no need to visit the Consulate or Embassy again for a year. You go on your trip and then come back in with a fresh 90 days.

If I had to do special visa runs then for sure would apply for extension of stay based on business and sign my name 126 times. Having to do it for our foreign employees is purgatory enough of signing the docs 126 times. The employee themselves have to only sign their name 3 or 4 times! Talk about not fair. :-)

On the extension of WP every 90 days. Its very smooth, sign 2 or 3 docs and the power of attorney and its done in a hour.

The only downside is I could apply this year for a residence permit if I had done a extension of stay visa based on business. That seems to take several years to get approved but still who knows, if one day I had wish I had applied.

www.sunbeltasia.com