Local Wood Varieties . .

[jojothai]

JoJo - personally I'd avoid mai nhang (yang - to the untrained ear is what it sounds like but you have to be careful since yang mean what . . well it does in Lao not sure about Thai) - mai nhang is termite fodder they consume it with ease!

Also for those interested I've done some tests with Elmers Interior glue in terms of water resistance and basically if your joint is good the water won't penetrate it even after 2 days! That is fully submerge in water - not just rained on!

Thanks for confirming Technocracy, thats what I thought.

jojo

[Majiko]

JoJo - personally I'd avoid mai nhang (yang - to the untrained ear is what it sounds like but you have to be careful since yang mean what . . well it does in Lao not sure about Thai) - mai nhang is termite fodder they consume it with ease!

Also for those interested I've done some tests with Elmers Interior glue in terms of water resistance and basically if your joint is good the water won't penetrate it even after 2 days! That is fully submerge in water - not just rained on!

Thanks for confirming Technocracy, thats what I thought.

jojo

I wonder if anyone else has experience of mai yang? Have a load of old mai yang - which, as opposed to the young stuff, my wife reckons we won't have termite trouble with - lying around which I would like to use as flooring.

How would it stand up and how would be the colour do you reckon?

[technocracy]

JoJo - personally I'd avoid mai nhang (yang - to the untrained ear is what it sounds like but you have to be careful since yang mean what . . well it does in Lao not sure about Thai) - mai nhang is termite fodder they consume it with ease!

Also for those interested I've done some tests with Elmers Interior glue in terms of water resistance and basically if your joint is good the water won't penetrate it even after 2 days! That is fully submerge in water - not just rained on!

Thanks for confirming Technocracy, thats what I thought.

jojo

I wonder if anyone else has experience of mai yang? Have a load of old mai yang - which, as opposed to the young stuff, my wife reckons we won't have termite trouble with - lying around which I would like to use as flooring.

How would it stand up and how would be the colour do you reckon?

I've never seen any mai yang which is resistant to termites!

You'd have to coat it in the anti termite stain and make sure you have a plastic sheeting underneath it to stop any sub-terrain termites coming up for lunch!

It doesn't finish to great either from my experience.

ps . . . for those interested I've finished the guitar (and another - with a 3rd just waiting bit from the US which seemingly have been lost in the post! ) . .. . but just haven't had time to put up pictures - as I am busy working on a website for said guitars!

[simon43]

Excellent thread! I am getting close to designing and building a Thai-style house for myself in a rural part of north Phuket.

I have discussed sourcing suitable wood from a few builders, but their opening line is always 'very expensive blah blah blah...'

You previously gave a typical price for some woods per yoke. So I have to ask 'How much is a yoke?!' I suppose it is not a measurement by weight, so presumably by size? Can you explain this a bit more so I can guesstimate my building costs?

As an aside, since I will be probably be using old, weathered wood, do you have any suggestions where I can source a suitable supply of wood? I have previously assumed that I would use Teak or Mai Daeng, but your useful post perhaps offers other alternatives that are termite-resistant etc.

Thanks

Simon

[technocracy]

Excellent thread! I am getting close to designing and building a Thai-style house for myself in a rural part of north Phuket.

I have discussed sourcing suitable wood from a few builders, but their opening line is always 'very expensive blah blah blah...'

You previously gave a typical price for some woods per yoke. So I have to ask 'How much is a yoke?!' I suppose it is not a measurement by weight, so presumably by size? Can you explain this a bit more so I can guesstimate my building costs?

As an aside, since I will be probably be using old, weathered wood, do you have any suggestions where I can source a suitable supply of wood? I have previously assumed that I would use Teak or Mai Daeng, but your useful post perhaps offers other alternatives that are termite-resistant etc.

Thanks

Simon

Simon,

I'm not exact sure what the per 'yoke' size is either - however most timber yards in Thailand and Laos have it cut to common sizing such boards 15cm, 20cm or 25cm x 1cm or larger stuff like 2cm x 4cm or 5cm x 10cm and varying other sizes.

I would hazard a guess that a yoke is an un-cut piece of lumber for most lumber merchants they'll charge per Kg. Obviously this comes in a large chunk and is more useful to furniture makers, carvers etc since people can cut it to there required size.

Mai Daeng (Burmese Ironwood or Pyinkado) is an excellent timber for building purposes - however I've never seen any cut in board sizes the majority of it comes in larger 5cm x 10cm length or sleeper sizes (since one of it uses is railway sleepers!). One thing I can confirm on mai daeng is it makes and excellent sounding guitar . . . but that's another thing!

Also the other problem you have is getting carpenters who'll actually finish the timber decently for most the smoothest they get is a run over with an electric planer. Really for the quality of timber cuts in Thailand you need a decent thicknesser to get it perfectly square and level - however buying say a Makita thicknesser in Thailand is nigh on impossible.

Also working on timber of the kind of hardness of Mai Daeng needs blades constantly sharpening since it'll take the edge off the blade in just a few passes, also trying to plane it to fast like most 'carpenters' do in this part of the world ends up taking large nicks out of it.

Teak (mai sak) on the other hand is far considerably softer compared to mai daeng but due to it's high oil content is exceptional for outdoor use.

Either way you do it - it will be expensive. Especially when you want long 5x10 or 10x10 beams - the bigger the cut the more expensive it gets. I put down a Mai Khaen Hin deck here 5m by 8m and the boards alone cost $600 - the supports were similar in cost - I believe the timber here is quite a bit cheaper than Thailand as well.

But yes there is plenty of termite resistant timber - just avoid mai nhang - mai khaen is commonly used for supports - being an ironwood it is plenty strong enough. But like I said before the problem with Khaen Hua for finishing purposes is unless it's kiln dryed it'll crack, Khaen Hin is the superior of the two - but obviously more expensive of the two.

Edited January 10, 2009 by technocracy

[simon43]

Thanks for that information. When I drive around the Krabi/Ao Nang area I see many old wooden houses. I'm not sure what wood is used, but it is in the form of narrow planks of wood placed vertically and slightly overlapping each other, (so no wide planks or panels). The wood looks 'old', ir is light-greyish in colour. There are also more modern wooden houses where the design is the same but the wood is much redder in colour - looks like it has been stained.

Since the old houses have not rotted away I presume that it is a hardwood that was used. Would it be teak? Does teak lighten with age?

The actual house style is not really that pretty, (in my view!), and I'm wondering how I can use these narrow planks to build a house that is pleasant on the eye. Perhaps I need to use a mixture of brick and wood planks?? (I need some ideas!)

Simon

[technocracy]

All of the woods I mention are classified as hardwoods - hardwoods is a generic term for timber which is useable for outdoor purposes without the need for protection from the elements (i.e. varnish or paint). Ironwoods are also hardwoods but to be being classified as an ironwood mean in general are a lot denser and heavier than hardwoods.

Softwoods will if left outside in a short period of time rot and will be eaten by termites in double quick time - although termites can eat quite a few hardwoods (mai nhang is a prime example).

As you mention the timber used for house turns grey when weathered this is usual for ALL hardwood not just teak - once in this state it is relatively difficult to workout what the timber is unless you know the grains of wood well.

On the note of teak and the often sold 'teak oil' - this is probably one of the biggest marketing cons known to man kind! ANY oil makes a sheen finish on timber however all vary in there sheen and hardness however it never dries although drying oils such as Tung or Linseed (and other mixtures) leave a hard, dried finish. Walnut oil is an excellent finishing oil and even your humble cooking oils (particularly Palm Oil) provide very good finishes and can be used on ANY hardwood not just teak! Teak has a very high oil level hence it's excellent water resistance ala the Titanic deck board still in good condition.

As an example of the cooking oil - the finished piece of Mai Doo in the picture on the previous page was finished with cooking oil and I have the piece of timber still and it looks exactly the same now as it does in the picture.

In terms of house building part timber part brick work is no problems - mainly using shuttering on the upstairs but brick downstairs or just for decorative purposes over the brick work.

Thailand and Laos have some of the best timbers in the world and anything can be achieved with it - the only problem is finding people who can make what you want to the standard you desire!

[simon43]

I also have an option of buying an old rice barn or house from north Thailand and using the wood from that to build my house... It seems a reasonably cheap option but I will still have to find a couple of craftsmen who can build the new house.

One question that I have - Most (all?) of the old wooden houses that I see seem to use vertical 'shuttering' (ie wooden planks slightly overlapping). That doesn't seem particularly attractive! Is there a better way that I can use the salvaged hardwood in a new build?

Simon

Edited January 12, 2009 by simon43

[simon43]

As an addendum to my last post, I have located a source of salvaged Mai Daeng. This was apparently an old house that used to stand near to Kanchanaburi, (the wood retailer showed me photos as they dismantled it). There are a total of 615 massive planks, each about 4 meters long x 20cm wide x 5cm thick, (and as hard as nails!). There are also 20 massive 'stilts/tree trunks', each about 5 meters in length by 20cm diameter.

The whole lot totals 36 cubic meters and comes complete with government papers to indicate that it is legally salvaged wood.

Now - how much should I pay in total for that wood??? Any ideas what a realistic price would be??

Additionally, as per your previous comments about Mai Daeng, how on earth can my builders finish this wood to enhance the grain/appearance etc? It is so hard that I cannot imagine how each plank could be worked... Would it be better to stain this weathered wood to the same colour as the hardwood (teak?) doors and window frames?

Your advice is much appreciated, especially about a fair price for this wood.

Simon

[technocracy]

36 cubic meter of Mai Daeng . . . hmmmmmmmm blimey . . . that'll cost a fair bit! Mai Khaen here in Lao for 1 cubic metre was if I remember rightly around $200 . . . so mai daeng probably will set you back more.

Probably the wisest thing to do is go to a local timber yard and check out what they price 1 cubic metre of it at - then deduct about 25% for salvage damage.

In terms of finishing it - well belt sander with lots and lots of 120 grit belt and plenty of time will do the trick since 120 grit is the finest you'll get for belt sanders if you want to sand it more than it's hand sanding time. The other thing after the 120 will provide a quick and smooth finish is a cabinet scraper however I've never seen any for sale in Thailand - I import mine from the UK - since they don't sell them in Thailand I'd assume a Thai carpenter wouldn't know how to use them.

I finished the mai daeng guitar body down to 2000 grit - it's hard timber but not unworkable - it just take time and patience. 120 grit and maybe a going over with a 240 will put a smooth enough finish on timber particularly for timber not of highly decorative purposes.

On the strength of mai daeng I demonstrated this to a friend the other night where I have a piece less than a cm thick which I attempt to snap with my hands . . . regardless of how hard I tried I could merely bend it slightly - it is tougher than old boots and heavy with it!

I wouldn't even attempt to stain it just a waste of money and effort - the timber is so dense the stain doesn't penetrate the wood in the slightest and will just wash off in a very short period of time.

Could you not get Mai Doo window and door frames - which will then match this timber?

[simon43]

The wood wholesaler here in Phuket is selling the 615 planks of Mai Daeng and 20 very large 'stilts' for - wait for it - 750,000 baht.....

Simon

[technocracy]

The wood wholesaler here in Phuket is selling the 615 planks of Mai Daeng and 20 very large 'stilts' for - wait for it - 750,000 baht.....

Simon

Roughly $20k . . . . sounds pretty somewhere in the right region maybe a bit pricey . . get a 100k discount and that'll be a decent deal I reckon (obviously depending on the size of the timber).

Unfortunately you have to pay what the want and timber isn't cheap . . . it cost me over $5k for the all the windows and doors in my house - mainly mai doo but interior doors mai khaen hin.

It costs just over $10 per metre of 5x10 mai daeng or over $20 for Teak in Vientiane and on the other hand it costs me $30 per Kg for Mun Ebony . . . so just be glad the price isn't by Kg!

[simon43]

Considering the amount of wood and the supporting documents etc, the price didn't sound too bad. I can see how I could use the planks for flooring and the heavy stilts for .. er... stilts! But back to my previous question about the walls. What is the best way to use this planking to make the walls in an attractive manner? All the houses that I have seen have the planks running vertically and overlapping slightly. Would it not be better to abutt them, rather than overlap them? (assuming that they fit tightly against each other?).

A house that is being built nearby is using tongue and groove planks for the walls, but the planks have also been profiled so that they are thinner near the edges. This gives a pleasing appearance. (Maybe Mai Daeng is too hard to profile!)

Simon

[technocracy]

Considering the amount of wood and the supporting documents etc, the price didn't sound too bad. I can see how I could use the planks for flooring and the heavy stilts for .. er... stilts! But back to my previous question about the walls. What is the best way to use this planking to make the walls in an attractive manner? All the houses that I have seen have the planks running vertically and overlapping slightly. Would it not be better to abutt them, rather than overlap them? (assuming that they fit tightly against each other?).

A house that is being built nearby is using tongue and groove planks for the walls, but the planks have also been profiled so that they are thinner near the edges. This gives a pleasing appearance. (Maybe Mai Daeng is too hard to profile!)

Simon

I'd pity the man who would be profiling all the edges on those planks! Mai daeng is by no mean hard to profile - a decent carbide bit in a router and away you go the only problem is it blunts bits faster than most timbers.

In terms of using butt joint you would need the use of an industrial large bed jointer/planer to put a straight edge on each of the planks - otherwise you will just have gaps. Once the edges are straight the planks could then be tongue and grooved using a router again ideally this would be done on an industrial bed router but could be done by hand.

The other problem with butt joints or tongue and groove is that I'd reckon all the planks vary in thickness by a few mm - so when butted up to each other you'd see the varying heights of the boards. Again you could have all the boards thicknessed to a uniform size but again industrial equipment is necessary.

The overlap is used not only because in general most of the plank edges aren't straight but also the over lap keeps the water out - much the same reason you over lap roof tiles.

[Somtham]

As an addendum to my last post, I have located a source of salvaged Mai Daeng. This was apparently an old house that used to stand near to Kanchanaburi, (the wood retailer showed me photos as they dismantled it). There are a total of 615 massive planks, each about 4 meters long x 20cm wide x 5cm thick, (and as hard as nails!). There are also 20 massive 'stilts/tree trunks', each about 5 meters in length by 20cm diameter.

The whole lot totals 36 cubic meters and comes complete with government papers to indicate that it is legally salvaged wood.

Now - how much should I pay in total for that wood??? Any ideas what a realistic price would be??

Additionally, as per your previous comments about Mai Daeng, how on earth can my builders finish this wood to enhance the grain/appearance etc? It is so hard that I cannot imagine how each plank could be worked... Would it be better to stain this weathered wood to the same colour as the hardwood (teak?) doors and window frames?

Your advice is much appreciated, especially about a fair price for this wood.

Simon

Simon - the "yoke" used for selling wood is technically 16 boards 8 sok (4 meters) long and 10 inches wide. So you'll get 64 meters of length with 10 inch wide boards.

Your 615 planks 4 meters long and ~7.9 inches wide woukld be 615 x 4 = 2460 meters / 64 = 38.43 x 0.79 = 30.4 yoke. Not sure what price 2 inch thick Mai Daeng is but I would guess B25K/yoke would be close. 25,000*30.4 = B760,000. The columns should cost around B700 each so add another B14K and the works should be ~B774,000.

In a later thread you mentioned a price of B750,000 si it looks pretty good. I would ask the guy the price per yoke for Mai Daeng.

rgds

[simon43]

Somtham, thanks very much for that info.

A price of 700 baht per column actually seems way too low! These are massive timbers! I would have thought a couple of thousand baht was ok.

Simon

PS - what's the Thai for yoke?

Edited January 16, 2009 by simon43

[Somtham]

Somtham, thanks very much for that info.

A price of 700 baht per column actually seems way too low! These are massive timbers! I would have thought a couple of thousand baht was ok.

Simon

PS - what's the Thai for yoke?

No, that's what the columns cost around KPP. I've bought mai daeng, teak, pradoo, and some other wood columns for B500-700 for 4-6m lengths.

The term 'yoke' is Thai.

Have you looked at the mai daeng the guy is trying to sell you? Is it rough sawn, hand planed, or machine planed. How much 'effort' is it going to take to get it usable for your house? As Techno has suggested this is very hard wood and dulls cutters quickly. 12" carbide cutters are about B4000 a pair and another B300 to sharpen. I'd guess you might get a quarter yoke planed with one sharpening so that's another 40k in sharpening costs.

Have you looked into the prefabbed teak houses built in Ayudaya (sp)? There are several factories making them along the main highway. They look nice but I've never stopped to check on pricing. I imagine the prefab would save you a lot of construction headaches, time, and possibly money.

My dream house would be teak exterior siding and wall studs, drywall interior walls, mai daeng living room floor, mai makah office floor, and teak bedroom.

Enjoy your project.

Techno - post a picture of the finished guitar. Would love to see it. Curious, how much does it weigh?

rgds

[mgjackson69]

When you speak of mai doo having a distinctive scent...is it something similar to fresh cinnamon?

I was working on a little project the other day with some lumber odds and ends and ran across some of this. It was not quite like cutting iron, but almost...

[technocracy]

When you speak of mai doo having a distinctive scent...is it something similar to fresh cinnamon?

I was working on a little project the other day with some lumber odds and ends and ran across some of this. It was not quite like cutting iron, but almost...

Yep something similar to fresh cinnamon - it's actually a relation of sandalwood so it smells more like that really!

As for pictures . ..

This is the Mai Daeng one . . .

This is what Mai Daeng can look like!

Yes the centre part of the body is mai daeng - I mixed it for something more of an effect. The neck is lovely Afzelia Xylocarpa aka Mai ta kha . . .. speaking of which here is a full Afzelia Xylocarpa guitar .. ..

Which finishes something like this . . .

My third model has been delayed due to supplier problems (well actually those tosser who took over Swampy are to blame as the part I ordered haven't turned up) but should be finished in the next few days.

Edited January 17, 2009 by technocracy

[technocracy]

Oh in terms of weight . . . I haven't actually weighed it yet.

It certainly heavier than the Afzelia - but it's not overly heavy. It just feels a nice meaty guitar and is very nice played with a strap.

I'll weigh it in the morning and get back to you on that!

[Somtham]

As for pictures . ..

This is the Mai Daeng one . . .

This is what Mai Daeng can look like!

Yes the centre part of the body is mai daeng - I mixed it for something more of an effect. The neck is lovely Afzelia Xylocarpa aka Mai ta kha . . .. speaking of which here is a full Afzelia Xylocarpa guitar .. ..

Which finishes something like this . . .

My third model has been delayed due to supplier problems (well actually those tosser who took over Swampy are to blame as the part I ordered haven't turned up) but should be finished in the next few days.

Thanks for the pics. You're quite the craftsman and the guitars are beautiful. Hope you get your parts for the third one.

rgds

[simon43]

Somtham - the wood comes from an old house that was located near to the Burmese border (I have seen the photos as they deconstructed this house). so the wood is only rough-planed and will need a lot of work get a good planed finsih to it.

Yes, I know about the 'prefabs' at Ayuthaya (and Petchaburi also). When I have a little time I will drive up and chat with those companies re price, quality etc.

Simon

[technocracy]

The Baritone has landed . .. . 27" Baritone Guitar - Burmese Rosewood body and Afzelia Xylocarpa fretboard and neck:

In terms of weight:

Mai Daeng - Guitar 1 - 4.5kg

Afzelia Xylocarpa - Guitar 2 - 3.5kg

Mai Doo Daeng (Burmese Rosewood) - Guitar 3 - 4.5kg

Time for the next creation . . it's gonna be a monster (in guitar terms of course!)!

Edited January 27, 2009 by technocracy

[gerryBScot]

Absolutely excellent & highly informative thread. At the risk of lowering the tone of the thread but because you guys know what you are talking about, what about ordinary cheaper timber for building furniture, tables,chest of drawers,book cases and shelving? What do you recommend. I am interested in wood with nice grain that will finish well purely for indoors. Would appreciate your expertise on what is available locally. I am not yet ready to move into hard woods but this really has got me thinking.Many thanks

[technocracy]

Absolutely excellent & highly informative thread. At the risk of lowering the tone of the thread but because you guys know what you are talking about, what about ordinary cheaper timber for building furniture, tables,chest of drawers,book cases and shelving? What do you recommend. I am interested in wood with nice grain that will finish well purely for indoors. Would appreciate your expertise on what is available locally. I am not yet ready to move into hard woods but this really has got me thinking.Many thanks

Gerry,

The problem is in Thailand (and Laos) there isn't really any 'ordinary' timber as such. There is some pine about but it's not the greatest of quality but the main problem for most normal DIY'ers is with most timber availble over here is virtually all come rough sawn so there is a lot of work and equipment needed to get it to a true form. For me having a bandsaw, table circular, table planer/jointer it's not such and issue but for the average DIY'er this is beyond them.

For basic stuff I would suggest MDF and finish it with a clear laquer or paint it (hel_l that's what most of Ikeas' stock it!) but the problem is getting MDF! I believe it might be available in Global Home but I cannot confirm this or the thicknesses available.

On the other hand there is Plywood however the plywood in Laos is absolutely shocking and falling apart before it's even cut - I don't know if there is decent Plywood in Thailand?

A good quality plywood looks great finished in a clear laquer - Sept last year I visited the UK for the first time in a few years and my dad was put in a new kitchen and on the floor he was using a plywood to level up the uneven floor board for the rubber tiles going down. I had forgot just how good the plywood in the UK was it made the plywood here look like exactly what it is - total and utter junk - the plywood in the UK has perfect flawless grain and is totally true unlike the bent and failing apart Viet/Chinese junk here.

Personally if I was you and you live in a major city in Thailand I'd check if there is any importers of decent plywood - beech, ash or even oak ply - all you need to do with this cut it to size and glue it's perfectly true and square and will make excellent indoor household furniture and have nice grain.

Edit: Forgot to mention the ash and oak plywood I mention in general are a standard ply core with a veneer of the finsh on the outer so it's not hugely expensive compare to standard lightweight ply. How I'd love beable by this in Laos!

Edit2: Just done a quick search and on alibaba and there is numerous high quality Thai plywood manufacturers - so I am pretty sure it'll be easy enough to locate some.

Edited January 29, 2009 by technocracy

[gerryBScot]

Thanks Techno very helpful. MDF is widely available here in a variety of thicknesses and i have done some work with it, stacking boxes etc for open plan shelving; painted up it looks good. very happy with results. I just recently bought a timber table and chairs with some blemishes on the finish and got the old sander out and am in the process of applying a new finish with good old TOA varnish and thinners. I am half way done and just love the way the finish is coming up; was just thinking if only I could get my hands on some decent quality pine. Got some ply from Globalworld with a timber finish but it was really poor quality and I have given up on it for the moment. But thanks for the info and thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[matte]

Very interesting subject!

Today "we" cut down a quite big old tree that my wife calls "Mai Gra-tawn".

Does anybody know what this might be? It seems like we are making a new stair for indoor use. Planks abt 2,5-3" thick and 15-20" wide.

I've been looking in this post but not found it.

We live in Sukhothai, maybe different lingo?

[GungaDin]

"A picture is worth a thousand words" Anon

68 posts and now a supermod.... gee wizz !

[matte]

Ok, GungaDin!
So with this several thousand words long description I feel confident that You can enlighten me.

[GungaDin]

You're the one telling the story, get on with it.