If The Roles Were Reversed?

[sylviex]

'Culture' (and within it "sexual morals") reflects to some extent the economic reality in which people exist.

Only to some extent. People living in poorer countries/poorer communities around the world have vastly different cultural values.

So let's make a few changes to sylviex's vision of Australia:

Please note that I am not promoting Australian values over those of any other culture. Simply, they are my reference point as a female who grew up there.

Step 1. remove government welfare entirely for both the woman, her siblings and elderly parents

Yes, but the necessary corollary is not "therefore, have your daughter marry a rich guy".

Step 2. remove the right to claim >50% of the husbands assets (including pre-marriage assets) in the event of divorce - but only if they marry another Aussie

Don't understand. Divorcees here can't claim 50% ?

Step 3. slash the minimum wage to, well, virtually nothing

etc etc

Earnings are relative. That's more than half the problem .

Now throw in the cultural value that the women in the family have a strong duty of care to those around them, rather than focussing on what they themselves want

Precisely my point.

"regardless of other factors" is a state that exists only in a test tube.

The whole question is. It is interesting to entertain the notion, though, because it highlights the set of attitudes and circumstances that contribute to the situation here.

Edited August 17, 2008 by sylviex

[dutchguest]

Also the families of the girls will -I think- make life almost impossible for the foreigners.

In reality most of the families of these ladies would not chose to bite the hand that feeds them.

roy gsd

In the west we don't have anymore the extended families and the duty for girls to support their parents. So if the parents bite they don't necessarely bite the hand that feeds them.

'Culture' (and within it "sexual morals") reflects to some extent the economic reality in which people exist. So let's make a few changes to sylviex's vision of Australia:

Step 1. remove government welfare entirely for both the woman, her siblings and elderly parents

Step 2. remove the right to claim >50% of the husbands assets (including pre-marriage assets) in the event of divorce - but only if they marry another Aussie

Step 3. slash the minimum wage to, well, virtually nothing

etc etc

Now throw in the cultural value that the women in the family have a strong duty of care to those around them, rather than focussing on what they themselves want

Then leave this new set-up to run for a year or two, and revisit and run your comparison again and see what you find.

"regardless of other factors" is a state that exists only in a test tube.

I agree that in the end economic realities are determining the morals.

So it is hard to compare the situations in so different countries.

[Bangyai]

I can't speak for the rest of the nation but if these rich wallas ever turned up in Bury I would open a factory producing white walking canes and dark glasses. As my old grandad used to say " where there's muck there's money " Yep, I could retire a rich man in no time. Not that the females in Bury are uglier than anywhere else, its just that they have honed the skill of ' the slovenly appearance ' to a fine art. I only spent a year there but soon understood why there are so many sheep shagging jokes in circulation.

[sylviex]

Another question, if I may ...

If you were a rich old man, would you marry a poor young woman knowing/sensing she had no attraction to you or love for you ?

[Shotime]

Another question, if I may ...

If you were a rich old man, would you marry a poor young woman knowing/sensing she had no attraction to you or love for you ?

What kind of question is that? No attraction to me? No love for me? How about this question? Would I ever marry any woman from anywhere if she felt that way about me (and I can name a few)? It's almost as ridiculous as the OP's question.

What is it you really want to know?

[mrcheshire]

Another question, if I may ...

If you were a rich old man, would you marry a poor young woman knowing/sensing she had no attraction to you or love for you ?

IN THAILAND ILL ANSWER FOR MANY, NOT MYSELF THOUGH, THE ANSWER IS YESTHEY WOULD. DO ADD GIRL HAS NOT PASSED 2ND GRADE EDUCATION ALSO.

[britmaveric]

To answer the ops question I could care less.... good thing about any relationship one has the choice to be in or not. Why would I have a say in who someone else chooses?

[yabaaaa]

What would be the reactions in your homecountry if thousends of more or less old, rich foreign man would come to your country and marry with more or less young, poor girls from your country?

How would people look at this?

Slightly reversing the question, but if you look at what is happening in the UK for instance. You find a huge flow of Eastern European women entering the country looking for jobs and a better life. If they subsequently hook up with British guys who will by and large be significantly wealthier than they are, then who is to say they are not gold diggers too? Should we look down on men who marry girls from Eastern Europe? Or feel sorry for the men who are left in their own country who are now minus one potential mate?

You are trying to racialise what is basically a biological equation that has existed since the dawn of time.

In Thailand though I have to say having a farang husband is not really an impediment to a Thai woman carrying on their existing relationship with a Thai man, and sadly most Thais know this to be the case so are not overly concerned with puah farang.

See recent very sad case for just one example out of thousands.

JJ

How do you know its "thousands" I know quite a fewn who are happily married with no money grabbing wife or family.I'd say a small minority is nearer the mark but like all good stories the bad ones stand out.

[keestha]

Sure a lot of westerners marry Thai women who are considerably younger. But for the vast majority of these women it would be difficult to find a Thai husband, since they have at least one child resulting from a previous relationship.

[uptou]

What would be the reactions in your homecountry if thousends of more or less old, rich foreign man would come to your country and marry with more or less young, poor girls from your country?

How would people look at this?

I've often thought about this.Say for instance if Brighton beach was the english version of Pattaya,yes i know its hard getting that picture in your head,but try to imagine Brighton with sunsine,palm trees,loose women,swivel bar stools,chrome poles,& sang som.How would the already angry english lads take to thousands of rich thai blokes[who spoke no engish] coming over & grabbing their women?

But then i start to think about the supply side of it,& if it wasnt there in the first place then neither would the sex tourists.

The only difference between the thai man,& a farang man seeking out a bar girl,is that the thai will probably go to a more discreet,out of public eye place to do the transaction so he doesnt have too many eyes on him,whereas the thai gogo bar owner is supplying the farang with what he knows,or thinks will make him the most money out of the farang.

Also you have to ask yourself why the young thai ladies want to get hooked up with a farang dinosaur in the first place.Yes,maybe with some of them its because they are waiting for them to croak it so they get the inheritance,or lump sum,but i would figure alot are with them because they wont stray,& will look after them,which is not what they have been used to.

Edited August 17, 2008 by uptou

[MKAsok]

i dont think old men would be interested in fat spotty english girls

I think you're probably right. However, the prospect of London pubs being full of old Asian blokes surrounded by fawning teenage girls from, say, Minehead in Somerset, shouting "handsome man" in bad Thai is an intriguing one. Particularly if these old chaps - in an attempt to be 'more English' - dressed up as say, Pearly Kings on a Monday and spoke to all their fellow countrymen in some heinous 'pidgin' dialect. Actually, this is great stuff. Excuse me while I go and pitch this to some cretin of a tv executive at Endemol...

[Maigo6]

But for the vast majority of these women it would be difficult to find a Thai husband

Haha.........

Another Farang with absolutely no idea how it really works.

Others will tell you that she already has a Thai Husband when she marries the Farang, or at least a Thai Boyfriend, so where does leave your theory ?

It's actually rather pitiful, totally naive, and typically Farang, they are all out to get you!!!!

Jeez, don't overestimate yourself mate, you ain't that desirable.

[britmaveric]

If you know the game, you are immune to most of this rubbish.

[Maigo6]

I dunno maybe I'm wrong, I've only lived in Thailand for 18 years so maybe I am not experienced enough.......

But get this, there are many genuine Thai women who marry Farangs that are total dixheads, and there are also many girls who met farangs in Bars who married total dixhead Farangs.

Yet many here amongst the Farang population lay the blame fairly and squarely at the feet of Thai women should a relationship flounder.

Many cases I know of the Thai women who has got a really bad husband when he has found a diamond, he uses his economic power to do what the fawk he wants, whereas a western women would have kicked his azz into touch long ago.

More power to Thai women I say.

Keep buying those houses boy's, you know it makes sense!

Edited August 17, 2008 by Maigo6

[Maigo6]

If the roles were reversed.....................

Would that mean that us Farangs would be stone broke poor and our parents would be stone broke poor with no pensions or state houndouts and our children couldn't afford an education, some old women comes along and offers the equavilent of 2 weeks salary for a roll in the hay that is gonna cost me 1 hour ?

Would I do it, H-ell Yea!

[Heng]

Keep buying those houses boy's, you know it makes sense!

[jetjock]

What would be the reactions in your homecountry if thousends of more or less old, rich foreign man would come to your country and marry with more or less young, poor girls from your country?

How would people look at this?

I would welcome old rich foreign men that want to come to my homecountry to marry our poor young uneducated girls so we could help reduce our welfare roles and help elevate some of the girls above trailer trash status so they could have a decent life. Lack of education whether it be in Thailand or any western country, is almost like a prison sentence of poverty which I cannot blame any girl for trying to escape. A girl in my country that is young and poor but also happens to be beautiful with some education has a big advantage since she will usually have no problem in marrying a rich old man of her own country.

[scotwumman]

For Gaw'ds sake you two pals Maigot and Heng you cannot buy houses unless you put it into the Thai girl's name. Had you said "condo" foreigners would be all ears. To the OP it is my opinion that you cannot reverse the roles. Different cultures. Ok you say imagine it.

Imagine Thailand was not a closed shop where property is concerned (fair play to them btw) the country would end up being an accident waiting to happen, as is the UK, a joke on the face of the earth imo. Their motto is "Let them all come" take the money the brits have put into the economy and work for less money, send it home but even if you can't work you got into the country so send the money home. You can buy any property, live off of benefis, good grief the English own most of the Scottish Highlands (they had the money at the time).

Look at this scenario

A western woman starts to question the male- maybe because she is starting to realise he is a waster from down the road- he will shame the children, maybe doesnt work so hard as she does. Not much different from the choices open to the women of whatever class in Thailand. I can relate to most of these women but I was very distressed to learn from a person who is very valued on Thaivisa (male) that western women travelling to Thailand are looked down on by male and female Thais. Distressed but glad to learn I was not imagining the scathing looks.

I am the eldest of a family of men and am only now at this late stage of my life realising they (the men) are not that bad just do not grow up, sorry Maigot, they wear cowboy hats but are too feart to clean up the town, you're a gunslinger but the sheriff's badge is missing. Two of my brothers and my son are tip top characters in their field. The woman of the family who got them their start in life is conveniently forgotten. I know that some Thailand women can relate to that whether they wish to do so or not is their business. They have had too much responsibility placed upon their shoulders. A woman's point of view, no more

[Heng]

For Gaw'ds sake you two pals Maigot and Heng you cannot buy houses unless you put it into the Thai girl's name. Had you said "condo" foreigners would be all ears.

I was laughing at Maigo's comment, which is clearly t-i-c sarcastic advice.

I've said all along that a foreigner's first home purchase here should be a condo (and that's only if he/she has plan B back home somewhere with bridges unburnt).

[scotwumman]

ok heng that's you off the hook- got it ass for elbow as I sometimes do (make that mostly do)

[jimjam23]

What would be the reactions in your homecountry if thousends of more or less old, rich foreign man would come to your country and marry with more or less young, poor girls from your country?

How would people look at this?

I would pity the poor sods:)

[PapiRico]

What would be the reactions in your homecountry if thousends of more or less old, rich foreign man would come to your country and marry with more or less young, poor girls from your country?

How would people look at this?

I don't think many "poor" Australian girls would be interested. They have other dreams and other options and would see many disadvantages to marriage with a much older person, if financial gain were the only motive.

One exceptional group might be girls living in extremely disadvantaged indigenous communities. This would soon produce some interesting reactions.

It all comes from how you where brought up, what ethics etc. What are you goals etc, if there was no escape from poverty and you couldnt take it anymore and you want to "get out" any way you can, then marrying a rich guy would be the way, but thanks to the USA you can be poor but work hard and come up in the world without the help of a rich man.

[ade100]

What would be the reactions in your homecountry if thousends of more or less old, rich foreign man would come to your country...

This was happening where I used to live on the South of France. The whole area was being bought up by rich, elderly Russians. Contrary to popular belief, the South of France is a very poor area with the locals living a hard life. However I never heard of one single French girl getting involved with one of the Russian guys.

While the locals were often poor, they still had healthcare, pensions, unemployment benefit, etc.

Conclusion: It's only when you take away the welfare state that young women start marrying old guys they don't like.

[onzestan]

Conclusion: It's only when you take away the welfare state that young women start marrying old guys they don't like.

Augh come-on now, are you saying that in the west money doesn't buy younger partners. Just look at the movie- pop-stars and other filthy rich. Just look at Hugh Heffner. Makes a big difference if you drive a Ferrari or any other very expensive car, for picking up girls.

I can think of better things to do than to compare everything in Thailand to our moral standards (if we have any).

my 2 cents

onzestan

[PhilHarries]

The only way it would work in the UK is if they shipped a few thousand sick buffalos over first.

Seriously though I guess the question is if the entire roles were reversed i.e. the UK had the same social structure and GDP per capital as Thailand and Thailand was the same setup as the UK but the people remained as is how would we British males view the situation? Well given "our" lack of mai pen rai attitude I'd guess there'd be gangs of angry young men roaming the streets smashing up bars and restaurants drunk on cheap liquor.....................

Hold on, that's what it's like now.

So the answer is : No change.

[sylviex]

Sure a lot of westerners marry Thai women who are considerably younger. But for the vast majority of these women it would be difficult to find a Thai husband, since they have at least one child resulting from a previous relationship.

Good point. This is another cultural factor in the situation here. Even if there are no children, do Thai men mind much if a woman is divorced ? I would think that certain forms of work experience would exclude a Thai woman from marriage to a Thai man, in many cases.

[dutchguest]

What would be the reactions in your homecountry if thousends of more or less old, rich foreign man would come to your country...

This was happening where I used to live on the South of France. The whole area was being bought up by rich, elderly Russians. Contrary to popular belief, the South of France is a very poor area with the locals living a hard life. However I never heard of one single French girl getting involved with one of the Russian guys.

While the locals were often poor, they still had healthcare, pensions, unemployment benefit, etc.

Conclusion: It's only when you take away the welfare state that young women start marrying old guys they don't like.

I think apart from economic reasons Thailand has also a more tolerant, pragmatic attitude towards "deviating" behavior. Think about the many ladyboys and the fact that many homosexuals from the "liberated" west move to Thailand for this climate of tolerance, of "mai pen rai". Also in heterosexual relations have a less stricter etical moral than the west; they don't make too much fuss about sex.

This can also be explained historically if we accept that about 1700 years ago the mainstream of the Thai population moved from Yunnan in China to what is now Thailand. And I think there was a great sexual freedom there long ago:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...women-rule.html

You can see some parallels with Thailand?

[onzestan]

What would be the reactions in your homecountry if thousends of more or less old, rich foreign man would come to your country...

This was happening where I used to live on the South of France. The whole area was being bought up by rich, elderly Russians. Contrary to popular belief, the South of France is a very poor area with the locals living a hard life. However I never heard of one single French girl getting involved with one of the Russian guys.

While the locals were often poor, they still had healthcare, pensions, unemployment benefit, etc.

Conclusion: It's only when you take away the welfare state that young women start marrying old guys they don't like.

I think apart from economic reasons Thailand has also a more tolerant, pragmatic attitude towards "deviating" behavior. Think about the many ladyboys and the fact that many homosexuals from the "liberated" west move to Thailand for this climate of tolerance, of "mai pen rai". Also in heterosexual relations have a less stricter etical moral than the west; they don't make too much fuss about sex.

This can also be explained historically if we accept that about 1700 years ago the mainstream of the Thai population moved from Yunnan in China to what is now Thailand. And I think there was a great sexual freedom there long ago:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...women-rule.html

You can see some parallels with Thailand?

I believe the biggest contributing factor is that there are no sexual taboo's in Buddhism. S&x is something to be enjoyed, not

to be (obligatory) confessed to the local priest with all its implications.

onzestan

[sylviex]

I believe the biggest contributing factor is that there are no sexual taboo's in Buddhism. S&x is something to be enjoyed, not

to be (obligatory) confessed to the local priest with all its implications.

I think there are taboos, especially as applied to women -- virginity or "virginity" favoured in a bride, for example. Thai men might visit "bars" but they don't do so openly. I think the idea that Thailand is the land of sexual liberty is largely a Western invention.

[dutchguest]

I believe the biggest contributing factor is that there are no sexual taboo's in Buddhism. S&x is something to be enjoyed, not

to be (obligatory) confessed to the local priest with all its implications.

I think there are taboos, especially as applied to women -- virginity or "virginity" favoured in a bride, for example. Thai men might visit "bars" but they don't do so openly. I think the idea that Thailand is the land of sexual liberty is largely a Western invention.

Sexual liberty in Thailand is not a western invention. May be the west has used c.q. misused the existing freedom and naivity. If you talk about lack of sexual freedom I think primarely of moslimcountries. They are maledominated and especially woman have very less sexual freedom. In Thailand woman are relatively free, also in their sexlife.

There are many indications that Thailands development goes from more or less matriarchal, tribal organisation to a more patriarchal direction with the rise of buddhism and a centralised state. Matriarchal organisation is characterised by sexual freedom, common property (people share everything) and mainly animistic beliefs. Especially in the countryside in Thailand we can see these characteristics more or less. Also heredity is still in the female line:

“So why is the Thai dowry paid to the woman whereas the rest of world does it, or did it, differently?” I asked him, sitting atop a stool in a room stacked full of books and newspapers. Speaking English impeccably well he replied, “Land in Thailand is usually taken care of by the woman, or inherited by the woman. It is usual for the man to move in with her family after marriage, whereas in Western and Chinese cultures the woman will move in with the man and he will take care of her and the land. She will pay to be part of his wealth and his family status. Thailand is the opposite.

( http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.php?id=1650 )

Another indication in this direction is the labour participation of woman in Thailand.

http://www.cpamedia.com/culture/thai_women_commerce/