But if someone want to say that the Warsaw Ghetto and today's Gaza have at least a few things in common, well, I don't think that is too much a stretch.

I agree, but, the statement ,"Comparing Gaza to the Warsaw ghetto is reasonable if not 100% accurate" is not even close to that.

OK, take my first statement as a poor attempt on conveying my thoughts. What I have subsequently written is a more specific on what I actually think.

Thank you for being more specific.

Proportionality is the key here, the amount of death amongst innocents is appalling, both sides have committed war crimes, but how anybody can justify the death of 400 children is beyond me.

Hamas would be quite happy to kill 400 Israeli children if they could and they very well might hit a school someday with one of their rockets. Is it OK that they play Russian Roulette with Jewish children's lives?

But they can't, so killing theirs at such a proportion is beyond justification, apart from the apologists of such a large scale destruction, how long do you have to feel guilty for the atrocities of the second world war?

"Proportionality" is rather foolish in wartime

Dresden was quite correct too, apart from it had no real tactical advantage apart from terror and supposed aid to the Soviet Union

Weighing Proportionality in Gaza

Since Hamas wants Israel destroyed, Israel claims its actions have become a just cause

Quite an impartial view.

Moss

Hamas would be quite happy to kill 400 Israeli children if they could and they very well might hit a school someday with one of their rockets. Is it OK that they play Russian Roulette with Jewish children's lives?

But they can't, so killing theirs at such a proportion is beyond justification, apart from the apologists of such a large scale destruction, how long do you have to feel guilty for the atrocities of the second world war?

Moss

Why can't they kill 400 Israeli children if the rocket hits the wrong place? It is certainly not through lack of trying to kill .

What does the second world war have to do with allowing a sovereign country to defend themselves against missles purposely fired at civilians. Any country would do the same.

Do you see that one could compare the Waffen S.S. and the U.S. Marine Corps because both are military organizations, but if you say, "Comparing the Marines to the Waffen S.S. is reasonable if not 100% accurate", that you are slandering the Marines? That pretty much means that the Marines go around commiting genocide without provocation.

After the My Lai Massacre, comparing the Waffen SS and the Charlie Company was reasonnable and even 100% accurate. Other massacres took place in Vietnam, Irak and almost everywhere you went to.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to bash America once more. Comparing some French Forces in Algeria and Indochina and the Waffen SS would be pretty accurate as well.

Why Israel should be immune from such a comparison? If it's good enough for the Frogs and the Yankees...

Our respective forces commited crimes against humanity. In this moment in time the Israeli forces are doing the same. With America's blessing and more support from France since the crazy garden gnome (cocaine?) was crowned. Period.

Alright; before UG would say it; adjan Jb is a buddy of mine too...

After the My Lai Massacre, comparing the Waffen SS and the Charlie Company was reasonnable and even 100% accurate.

As a Marine, I feel compelled to point out that My Lai was perpetrated by the Army, not the Marines. Regardless, I understand the point you make. Although the Waffen SS's failures in combat are a far cry from the Marines or the US Army.

I would reject a comparison with the Allgemeine-SS as that was the SS who ran the extermination campign and death camps.  These were not actual combat troops but politically selected executioners.

After the My Lai Massacre, comparing the Waffen SS and the Charlie Company was reasonnable and even 100% accurate.

As a Marine, I feel compelled to point out that My Lai was perpetrated by the Army, not the Marines. Regardless, I understand the point you make.

there is a striking resemblance between My Lai and Ouradour sur Glane

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane#History

What does the second world war have to do with allowing a sovereign country to defend themselves

I forgot you were an American Male, so understandable that the noise that you heard whistling over your head is called irony.

Any country would do the same.

That, I seriously doubt.

What does the second world war have to do with allowing a sovereign country to defend themselves

I forgot you were an American Male, so understandable that the noise that you heard whistling over your head is called irony.

Any country would do the same.

That, I seriously doubt.

Sorry, but I think that you need to look at a dictionary definition of irony. It looks like Americans aren't the only ones that don't know what it is.

Do you really think most countries would just ignore rockets being fired at them every day for months at a time by a small terrorist-governed territory? Why don't you point out a country that has done so.

What does the second world war have to do with allowing a sovereign country to defend themselves

Any country would do the same.

That, I seriously doubt.

Sorry, but I think that you need to look at a dictionary definition of irony. It looks like Americans aren't the only ones that don't know what it is.

Do you really think most countries would just ignore rockets being fired at them every day for months at a time by a small terrorist-governed territory? Why don't you point out a country that has done so.

I agree. I don't think any country would sit back and do nothing if a neighbouring country were to continuously lob mortars and rockets at it. Do you think that if Hamas decided to start lobbing rockets into Egypt instead of Israel that Egypt would just bow down and take it ?

I seriously doubt that.

How long do you think Cuba would last if they started firing rockets into southern Florida ? Or if Mexico started firing into Texas and southern California ? What if Nepal started firing rockets into India ? Or Bangladesh into Burma ? East Timor into West Timor ?

I can't think of any nation that would just sit back idly and let that happen week after week, month after month, year after year, and not try to do something about it.

Can you ?

Do you see that one could compare the Waffen S.S. and the U.S. Marine Corps because both are military organizations, but if you say, "Comparing the Marines to the Waffen S.S. is reasonable if not 100% accurate", that you are slandering the Marines? That pretty much means that the Marines go around commiting genocide without provocation.

After the My Lai Massacre, comparing the Waffen SS and the Charlie Company was reasonnable and even 100% accurate. Other massacres took place in Vietnam, Irak and almost everywhere you went to.

As usual, our left- wing contributers stretch the truth to some pretty amazing lengths. As bonobo pointed out, Mai Lai was an Army Operation and had nothing to do with the Marine Corps but, more importantly, the troops were acting illegally and went out of control and went far beyond their mission. Mai Lai turned into a rogue operation and the Army command certainly was not pleased about it.

Pretty much every army has had troops that flipped out and commited attrocities, but the Waffen SS kidnapped, killed and tortured non-combatants as a "normal" activity. The orders came from the top and were santioned by the German Government. After WW 2, they were ruled to be an illegal organization.

You can compare the SS and the Mai Lai Massacre, but they are apples and oranges. One organization was supposed to commit war crimes and the other wasn't.

One thing I don't get is why the posters who get so upset about every American or Israeli mistake seem to care less when the Palestinians purposely target civilians and do not even pretend otherwise. Can you say Hypocrite?

Chalk one up for the little guy !

The fact that Hamas has won the battle should quiet down the protests against Israel for a while ! After all, if a little terrorist group can win a major victory against a larger, better trained, better armed, technologically advanced army, why protest ?

What's that you say ? You don't think Hamas won that confrontation ? Well according to their "exiled" leader (living in safety in Syria) they did.

"Mr Meshaal said that Hamas had withstood Israel's attacks, despite its military superiority.

"The Gaza Strip has scored a victory. The enemy has failed and the resistance, together with our people and nation, has scored victory. "This is the first war we have won, the first real and large-scale war. That is why the battle in Gaza is a real turning point in the struggle against the Zionist enemy," he said."

Wow. Israelis must be feeling pretty bad right now. To have rolled over Gaza, killed hundreds of militants while losing only a few of their won, hopefully put a halt (short term at least) to Hamas's ability to fire rockets into Israel, only to find out they lost the "war" ?

It would be funny if it weren't so sad. I haven't seen any groups or world leaders praising this "stunning victory". I think most would be embarrassed to be seen agreeing with this nut. Reminds me of the Iraqi (Minister of Information or something ?) that was making all those ludicrous claims during Gulf War 2, and the world was laughing at him.

Full story: Hamas leader urges West to talk

Hamas was so concerned with their "victory" that they gave Israel all the time they needed to destroy their whole infrastructure with the (reluctant) approval of most of the world. All they had to do was cease firing those rockets and Israel would have been forced to halt their mission.

Guess who really won?

One organization was supposed to commit war crimes and the other wasn't.

Did it make a difference for their victims?

Why don't you ask the victims of 9/11?

Why don't you ask the victims of 9/11?

They're not very talkative

9/11, My Lai and Ouradour sur Glane were crimes against humanity. What has been going on for years in Palestine is also a crime against humanity.

Suicide bombings, blowing up passenger planes and shooting rockets into peoples houses are crimes against humanity too, but you seem to ignore that.

... shooting rockets into peoples houses are crimes against humanity too,

At last, you admit that Israel is commiting crimes against humanity.

Guess who really won?

The people selling the weapons ?

My thoughts on this issue from reading articles in the papers, the Hamas attacks are via unguided rockets - a fairly random weapon of terror, the Israelis are responding with high tech weapons including snipers that appear to be targeting children with head shots (medical reports support that the number of children shot are above average for any random 'accidental' hits and that the head shot were fired to front of the face - through a scope the shooter had to know that they were aiming at a child) - whether political/military policy or a 'rouge' solider/unit I feel this is a specific war crime.

I understand that most (?) of the Arab world are remaining quiet on the subject of supporting Hamas, that is different from any comments anti-Israel which one would expect. I feel this implies that Hamas may not have the Arab support that an outsider would expect?

If Hamas is seen as the underdog needing an helping hand (as no one else would step in) by someone with a suitable (!) weapon of mass terror, dirty bomb?, then I think Israel would be a good place to avoid.

Doesn't the UN exist to put a stop to things like this? Maybe better just draw-up a new motion and set up a new relief fund?

... shooting rockets into peoples houses are crimes against humanity too,

At last, you admit that Israel is commiting crimes against humanity.

Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties. Hamas is purposely targetting them.

the Israelis are responding with high tech weapons including snipers that appear to be targeting children with head shots (medical reports support that the number of children shot are above average for any random 'accidental' hits and that the head shot were fired to front of the face - through a scope the shooter had to know that they were aiming at a child) - whether political/military policy or a 'rouge' solider/unit I feel this is a specific war crime.

It sounds like a load of bullsheet. Why would the IDF do something like this on purpose? It sure isn't going to help them with PR or in any other way.

How about a link from a REPUTABLE source?

... shooting rockets into peoples houses are crimes against humanity too,

At last, you admit that Israel is commiting crimes against humanity.

Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties.

Who told you that?

They have been warning civilians when and where they will strike. NO OTHER ARMY IN THE WORLD DOES THAT.

They have been warning civilians when and where they will strike. NO OTHER ARMY IN THE WORLD DOES THAT.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/1...rael-war-crimes

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/audio/2009...rael-war-crimes

It would also been very interesting to know how many people died/are dying because of the blocus that Israel have been imposing on Gaza. Since a blocus is a collective punishment, it's tantamout to a crime against humanity.

It sounds like a load of bullsheet. Why would the IDF do something like this on purpose? It sure isn't going to help them with PR or in any other way.

How about a link from a REPUTABLE source?

Bullets in the brain, UK's Daily Telegraph.

Typical text from the article above:

One of the medical team leaders at the hospital, Dr Ayman Abd al-Hadi, said that this was the worst conflict he had experienced. "We've had one child with two bullets in the head and nowhere else," he said. "We think that this shows something."

Your response is?

Another case from a pro-Israel web site. Same case covered on BBC's web site. I consider that case alone is a war crime - clearly targeting children.

More news sources on this theme within this Google Search.

Article relating to Arab/Hamas sentiment.

Edit

In any cases where targets were INTENTIONALLY not military targets, I suppose those were war crimes. However, as Hamas uses civilians to shield, it would difficult to prove any of that. Hamas on the other hand does not bother with targeting military targets, all Israeli civilians are legit targets for them, so by your anti-Israel propaganda standards each and every Hamas rocket was a war crime. You can't have it both ways. This was a war. People die in wars.

They have been warning civilians when and where they will strike. NO OTHER ARMY IN THE WORLD DOES THAT.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/1...rael-war-crimes

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/audio/2009...rael-war-crimes

It would also been very interesting to know how many people died/are dying because of the blocus that Israel have been imposing on Gaza. Since a blocus is a collective punishment, it's tantamout to a crime against humanity.

"Blocus" is not an English word, but if you want to know why Israel does not want the citizens of Gaza in Hamasland wandering around Israel, it might be to prevent suicide bombings or other terrorist activities. After all, the inhabitants have elected a terrorist group who call for Israel's destruction to lead them.

You might also ask why Egypt is not allowing them to use the border on their side since they are Muslim brothers and all, but of course you don't care about Arab crimes against humanity.

UN School Used by Terrorists As a Weapons Dump

Middle East | Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 9:52:12 am PST

The UN and the mainstream media are wailing and accusing Israel of war crimes (yes, again) after the IDF returned fire at a UN school from which Palestinians were firing mortars.

The explosives and booby traps installed in the school by Hamas then blew up, killing dozens of people.

And the world blames Israel.

30 reported killed in blast at UN school.

At least thirty people were reportedly killed and 53 wounded in an explosion in a UN-run school in the town of Jabalya in the northern Gaza Strip, according to Palestinians. The IDF issued a statement saying the school grounds were used by terrorists to fire mortar shells at the troops.

The infantrymen returned mortar shell fire into the school grounds, the army said. Defense officials told The Associated Press that booby-trapped bombs in the school triggered the secondary explosions which killed scores of Palestinians on the site.

In 2007, the IAF actually filmed some of these terrorists at a Gaza school, firing mortars into Israel. The media don’t seem to care.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/32..._a_Weapons_Dump

Edit

If anybody actually read this, before I edited it, I apologise unreservedly.

Moss