Thai-farang Relationship(s)

[aughie]

Are you a consultant Easyb - if you aren't then you should be!

A consultant??? how insulting!!! You mean someone who sells their time by the hour for the whim and dreams of clients? What do you take me for??

edit: Fk it it's only the internet. Carry on and good luck.

Edited January 18, 2005 by aughie

[Darknight]

Are you a consultant Easyb - if you aren't then you should be!

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A consultant??? how insulting!!! You mean someone who sells their time by the hour for the whim and dreams of clients? What do you take me for??

Not me!! I work for a Fortune 500 company and I get to go out and find the most attractive consultants, no matter what the cost, who can make my every dream come true and make me a hero in my next business review. If I don't like them, or maybe they get a little over used, I find another who is fresh and full desire to please me. I'll admit I have trouble settling down - there are always new ones, fresh MBA's, so fresh you can smell the ink on the diplomas, their laptops with the latest version of Excell, new markers for the whiteboard. Oh stop me, I think I’m about to go hire another one….

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I'm a consultant , i work with old geezers that lost their knowledge all the time

[mrmike]

geez as a 300k+ earner you seem to have a lot of time on your hands

btw, whats wrong with those mba's....or is it the color and feeling of their skin

anyway businessman to businessman, i treat all relationships as just that, a business transaction that needs a evaluation, if you have a lot of +'s go for it, if too many -'s give it a miss

call me pervert, but i am a lover of young 18+ female students, have had a few mba's though.....not too bad

au revoir

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now tell me...".call me pervert, but i am a lover of young 18+ female students"

how do you do that....you just ask them out for dinner and show them some dollars?

[chico]

geez as a 300k+ earner you seem to have a lot of time on your hands

btw, whats wrong with those mba's....or is it the color and feeling of their skin

anyway businessman to businessman, i treat all relationships as just that, a business transaction that needs a evaluation, if you have a lot of +'s go for it, if too many -'s give it a miss

call me pervert, but i am a lover of young 18+ female students, have had a few mba's though.....not too bad

au revoir

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if i remember right, "pervert" would be "18---"

[easyb]

Thanks everyone for a great conversation.

To Ravisher’s question

So, what will you do? Collect more data, make more calculations, , procrastinate forever... or has your brain already come down on the side of 'plus' or 'minus'?

Right now I’m towards the “plus” side because after all I’m going back. In a sense I will collect more data in that I’ll go to Thailand for a couple weeks and if that turns out OK then I’ll come back in a few months for a few more weeks and if that turns out again. Same, same as any relationship; we need time to know each other better. This part can’t be hurried. I understand the challenges of long distance, I’m lucky I can arrange and afford to come to Thailand 5-6 times over an 18 month period and get to know this person.

I did hear one important thing here is that these relationships can and do work. Like every relationship it’s about two people making it work, treating each other honestly, decently, with love. That’s the same everywhere and with every combination of people. There isn’t any structural reason why it can’t work with our difference age, culture and backgrounds and yet these do present their own set of challenges to be aware of. Specific to a BG past it seems the key challenge is first off trust. In both directions. That is so core to a relationship that I can see why it could be the root cause of many, many breakups. If you can’t get past that you can’t get anywhere. Beyond that I agree with the point made that it has shaped a women in a way via what has to be a rather crappy, degrading, experience and I don’t want to underestimate that but the human heart is strong and if there’s the will and right attitude people do move on. For me it’s really not an issue. I have the trust – she’s done enough things to prove to me, told me things she didn’t have to, I’ve had my ways I watch from the sidelines, the stories line up. I’ll keep paying attention but that’s a hump I’m most of the way over. For me it’s just about knowing her as a person like I’d do with any other woman and knowing I want to spend the rest of my life with her as well as raise what would be come my daughter. Time will tell.

All the comments on paying attention, learning Thai ways, challenges with culture and past work, trust and honesty are all well taken. I’ll pay attention and learn. But in the end it will be gut level, intuition that decides as it should be. I believe our intuition is very, very strong and smart – “it” is absorbing all this data, much may be below our perception or consciousness, maybe pheromones or the ability to know when someone is lying for instance, and our intuition probably creates it’s own Boston Matrix, in 3 or 4 or 10 dimensions, much more complex than we could understand with our rational brain and then it sends the signals to our body – we know when it’s the right decision; it makes sense, it feels right, it rings true.

To the question why do I have time to do this instead of work. I live alone, I don’t have a TV, I like to write – in the evenings or early morning I like to write emails to friends, posts like this, I’ve take some fiction writing for fun so it’s just my way to relax and explore what’s going on in my head. I work an honest 55-60 hour week in the office + some at home and that’s enough blood for what I get paid.

To the question about why not the MBAs I work with. These women are the last ones I’d want to be with. Smart, good looking, a great dinner date but the drive it takes to say get into Stanford, get your MBA from there or maybe Kellogg or Warton, be top of class is too much drive for me. That’s a wound up package. Expectations about everything are very, very high – job, life, husband, family; that’s a tough woman to be, excel at everything, do everything, balance everything. Age issues aside it’s not something I’d want. Laid back Thai girl might just suit me fine. 27 or 35 really doesn’t matter. I guess it’s a bonus that I get to have a young wife as opposed to the 40+ option I’d have here but in the end that’s a nice to have, the real attractiveness is the soul of the person and some very special qualities a Thai woman (and I guess other Asia women) bring to the relationships. I want something different and have a feeling if this one doesn’t work out I’ll keep coming to Thailand and not necessarily look in bars now that I have Thai work contacts, friends, etc.

thanks again all - see you around

[easyb]

To Ravisher’s question

So, what will you do? Collect more data, make more calculations, , procrastinate forever... or has your brain already come down on the side of 'plus' or 'minus'?

Right now I’m towards the “plus” side because after all I’m going back.  In a sense I will collect more data in that I’ll go to Thailand for a couple weeks and if that turns out OK then I’ll come back in a few months for a few more weeks and if that turns out again.  Same, same as any relationship; we need time to know each other better. This part can’t be hurried.  I understand the challenges of long distance, I’m lucky I can arrange and afford to come to Thailand 5-6 times over an 18 month period and get to know this person.

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easyb,

Ok, I see... you are going to continue procrastinating...

The long distance thing will not show you anything of what it is like to 'live with', or be married to a person. Long distance relationships are a far cry from married relationships, and live-in relationships are very different from married relationships.

I had 4 "normal" marriages, based on the 'regular' courting, later living together, then marriage, and all the "making sure" it is going to work, etc. ect. But none of them worked for more than 10 years. The others, 3 years, 3 years and 5 years respectively. My present wife (Thai) and I are into our 3rd year and all seems to be working out very well and happy. We decided to marry after only 5 days of our meeting.

To be honest, in my experience it is a lottery. You pays your money and you takes your chances. NOTHING and NO AMOUNT of calculating, analysis, making sure, trying this or that, is going to give you one iota of a guarantee that a relationship/marriage is going to work. People change, situations change, Life changes and moulds us... etc etc and like Life, marriage comes with no guarantees.

For my money, from what I have read of your prolific explainations here, I'd take my chances, as things are, and not wait the 18 months you speak of. Life is short and far too short to worry about making a mistake, even a 'big' mistake. In 18 months we could all be dead...

My advice: Go for it! ASAP.

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Here's the deal. She needs to stay with her job through the summer. In May she will take on some new responsibilites and is being trained on that. That assigmnent goes through summer - I think early September. It's really good for her to have the year + in this new work, to have the confidence in her self worth, to be asked to step up in a good way and be have respect and confidence from people she really looks up to. (women I might add which I think is a plus from a role model perspective). So the soonest she could come to the US is September or about 9 months more of long distance (I can visit three times during this time). I think worth waiting for to have someone who I'm not "saving" from a bad life but someone who really knows their worth, knows what they can do, that they can take care of themselves and family with a good job, etc. If all goes well I'd like her to come to the US for a couple months in the fall and if that works out yeah I'll go for it :-) And of course the Visa thing might drag on and be an issue but we'll do our best. Starting that process now.

thanks for everything and your encouragement is apprecaited!

[meemiathai]

Life is short and far too short to worry about making a mistake, even a 'big' mistake.

How true!!!

I asked my now wife to marry me the third time we met. It's now five years. Best five years of my life.

[Jai Dee]

Life is short and far too short to worry about making a mistake, even a 'big' mistake.

How true!!!

I asked my now wife to marry me the third time we met. It's now five years. Best five years of my life.

meemiathai, Great to hear that... and may you have those Best years for the rest of you life. If by chance it fails at some time, it is not a 'mistake' it is 'experience' and wonderful experience at that.

Some people think I am crazy and some think I am highly intelligent... but I could tell you within a few hours, at most, if I would marry somebody or not. I make job and Life decisions on the spot. I regret nothing of the past and do not worry about the future. Life is for 'living' and not for worrying, or regretting... we only have 'now'.

Agree - 100%.

I have been in a similar position, and although I have not had as many failed marriages as Ravisher, do not regret the past, instead have learnt from the past, and now go with my "gut feelings" or intuition.

As Ravisher so succinctly said earlier: "The intuition is the brains accumulation of all the knowledge we have, consiously and subconsciously on the matter at hand. Our 'gut' tells us what to do when the calculations become too complex for the conscious mind to make a clear cut analysis."

[fisherd3]

The reality is that all the western analysis , philosophy, predictions, good faith, good heart ...everything is double dutch when applied to a Thai/Farang relationship. The mind sets are just on a different planet.

The relevant facts are: easyb has got the dough and it seems a higher than average man management ability, the lady has the 'magical' thai feminine charms, how these elements are mutually dispensed will determine the success or the failure of this and all Thai/farang realtionships of this nature. The unique element in the above is 'the magic' therefore the lady is ultimately in control , what ever easyb says about his attitude to handouts and the lady standing on her own two feet, she will never, legitimately, by herself in Thailand be able to provide enough money to pay 'all her bills' which is why she was 'working' in the first place. She knows this, does easyb?

If she knows this is the bottom line she is basically with easyb for the money because if the money wasn't there she would have to look elsewhere, just like she 'had' to go to 'work'.

So in conclusion, easyb has the dough so everything should work out OK but if he went bankrupt tomorrow he would be out of the game. Would he marry a U.S./ U.K. lady with this attitude probably not, but thats all part of the 'Thai magic'!

Edited January 19, 2005 by fisherd3

[meemiathai]

Do western women look for guys who are broke, bankrupted, ugly, weak or whatsoever? That's interesting! I really didn't know about that!

[easyb]

Where do I start??? How about the magic. My son has an expression he uses call “abusing the power” to refer to his sister’s ability to milk copious amounts of money out of my wallet in times of dire need such as a “fashion crisis”. Magic indeed!

In the US money is part of the relationship deal. We need to wake up and smell the coffee on this one. A really high percentage of women look at the earning power of the man – come on this is so ingrained it’s probably genetic. I know this is changing as more women enter the work force – but go look at dating advice sites and still having a man that makes less than a woman is like having a man shorter than the woman. It’s not what they are looking for. (like a guy looking for a woman older than him) To a greater or lesser extent a woman wants a man who is going to bring home the bacon. For some good reasons too; like having and raising kids which gets us back to the genetic programming…

If I think about my ex- money was a big deal. She was, all and all, a cheap date but at the end of the day she expected me to earn the money. If I came home one day and said I quit my job and am going to be an entry level teacher making $27,000 a year and maybe we should sell the house and move into a trailer park I promise you the conversation would not have been about my happiness – it would have been about the creation of my unhappiness until I came to my senses and started banking some real buck. Does this make her a whore? No not at all. It was a deal and when she was shopping for a man she was looking for a provider. I can’t blame her because I signed up to be that person. Sure I know if I was in some horrible accident and couldn’t work she would have done what needed to be done, I don’t think she’d have walked on me in that situation. But let me tell you money is part of marriage. I used to live in this suburban enclave and there’s something called “garden club”, actually there are bunches of them. You know, a way to get together with the other ladies during the day. Go do a poll with that group and get a gage of their expectations and sensitivities to their husband’s income stream.

So sure I’m attractive to my Thai girl because I have money. That neither surprises or worries me – that’s the way it’s always been to me. It’s the price of admission best I can tell. And she’s attractive to me because she’s young. But if we are to be successful in a relationship there has to be more, so much more than that.

About her never earning enough money. I hear that a little. Overall I think she’s reasonable with money. She “abuses the power” here and there but in pretty small amounts. She spends more on an apartment than she thinks she should but wanted someplace nice for me when I come (it’s still just a room). I think all up it runs around 5000b. The air conditioning is appreciated, I’d pay more for hot water :-) So OK there’s a drip subsidy on that I accept – cheaper than hotels. I don’t know Thai salaries that well, she makes around 14,000 a month plus the bennies, 13th month and all that. Best I tell a person can live fine on that, help the family and save a little. She has a very good friend who’s quit working as a BG and now works in a department store or MK making 5000 or so and that I can see as tough. There’s probably a little flowing that way to help out and that doesn’t bother me. (never been asked or told, I just pay attention) I don’t have any doubt if I left the picture she’s get a cheaper room and do just fine including helping the family without going back to being a BG.

Now does 5000 or 10000 come her way for this thing or that every month or so. And there’s not doubt she’s happy with the improvement a farang boy friend has made to her wardrobe and standing in the family, but she’s straight up with me. Daughter, ex, Thai girl I’m know when they are putting the make on and I don’t mind playing the game for fun. (if it’s clothes I want a picture in my inbox right away) But no one, at least not me, wants to be taken advantage of. She did come to me with one serious, larger ask (again really quite small and not an issue for me). We talked about it, what was needed for the family, what was *really* needed, let me think about it for a week and at last agreed on 2/3 of what she asked for as essential. Did the 1/3 matter to me? No it was $150 or $200 maybe. But to Ravisher’s point in this situation you do want to be in control, at least I do. I want accountability. I made a deal with her, if she needs help with money ever, call me and we’ll work it out. And part of that deal is she saves money every month as a habit. So we watch that, we look over the bank book. We add up a budget. I’m not very tight about money, don’t track my expenses on a computer and such, but maybe there’s a little of an eyeball life experience in money management to share. If she comes over here and it’s full disclosure on the money then we’ll have budgets and to a large extent she will also acclimate to the cost of living. I bet she’d be a good household money manager if I gave her a budget – for the day to day. It drives her nuts to over pay. And YES I know she could make a real dent in a Nordstrom’s or Macy’s (US department stores) credit card if she got her hands on one. Lord help me when she turns the magic on, and oh no it’s going to be 2:1 in this deal I realize. I’ve already show bad judgment with daughters, with Thai girls, now a cute, but crying, Thai daughter having a fashion crisis? Then what about “The Prom”, you know what that costs a dad??? – oh easyb is going to be in a world of hurt… :-)

as always yours poorer and maybe a little wiser,

easyb

[chico]

Do western women look for guys who are broke, bankrupted, ugly, weak or whatsoever?  That's interesting!  I really didn't know about that!

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certainly not - but did it ever came to your mind that someone is not really asking for answers, just need people who listen to him, when those who know him are already too bored?

[easyb]

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easyb... are we writing a book here?

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Possibly.

[chico]

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easyb... are we writing a book here?

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Possibly.

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this was hopefully the happy end?!!

[kreon]

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easyb... are we writing a book here?

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Possibly.

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this was hopefully the happy end?!!

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and a boring one, at that

au revoir

[easyb]

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easyb... are we writing a book here?

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Possibly.

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this was hopefully the happy end?!!

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and a boring one, at that

au revoir

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Touché

[mrmike]

whatever anyone or anything do (be it man, woman, child, animal or ET).....is doing it only because of SURVIVAL.....not emotions, feelings, money, love, evil, kindness so on....all that is second and only tools for survival

so the big trick between man and woman is to rise boths survival index

easy, right

Edited January 19, 2005 by mrmike

[No beleeeeve!]

Either way, it seems that you are going to do what you wanted to do all along. Did you find someone here to support your position?

As mentioned, you are going to visit Thailand three times in a year or 18 months or whatever it was? Man, all I can say is good luck...really.

You are the ideal man to this girl right now. She gets the benefits of you popping in the country once every few months, you feeling all mushy and guilty about being away, you treat her like a queen for the holiday period, drop some money in her lap before you hit the airport, and then split.

They LOVE that! You know why? Because when you are away, she is scheduling another guy, just like you, to make his arrival into the Land of Smiles. Like a traffic controller, she makes sure the planes never overlap. Even if it doesn't happen now, it will in 18 months. Because any <51 year old guy who waves some cash in her face, you are a distant memory for the night.

If you are cool with that then all the best. But, you said you didn't want to be taken advantage of and yet you dove in head first.

But don't for a second think you are the only man in her life. You are just a tourist who pops in once in a while. The average amount of men a girl like her will juggle is around 2-4 depending on how often they come and how much they wire over.

You will in no way learn about Thai life being a tourist like that. Forget 18 months and longer down the road, it is very rare for girls her age to think that far ahead (yes, a generalization that is no doubt correct 5> out of 10 times).

All in all, you will still pursue this girl no matter what anyone here says, you pretty much justify it in many ways although many of us here who have lived in Thailand for years tell you otherwise, and you will find out on your own.

I hope that I and most of us are wrong and that you two live happily ever after, but I wouldn't bet a piece of used up chewing gum on it.

[fisherd3]

Easy b seems to be a really nice guy but most of what he writes seems to me to be about some kind of international 'Peyton Place' he is operating in (and writing about). He tacitly acknowledges the obvious pitfalls that exist and explains them away U.S. style but does not seem to acknowledge the nonsense of the statement 'Top Fortune 500 US executive courting $10 a night Thai hooker.' (They do if they have to! The $10 that is.) which at least should be a clue.

It is impossible to write a short succinct explanation containing the whole equation as I am sure it could fill a book and anyway noone knows all the answers, so one tries to put it in a short statement such as the above in the hope that it might ring some bells, this technique however does make it easy for others to shoot it down as it is really only a punchline, however I think the 'in quotes' above is pretty unarguable, and if this is the case such a strange statement is likely to have strange consequences flowing from it.. .........anywhere!

Edited January 20, 2005 by fisherd3

[fisherd3]

Easy b seems to be a really nice guy but most 'Top Fortune 500 US executive courting $10 a night Thai hooker.' (They do if they have to! The $10 that is.) which at least should be a clue.

You are absolutely right, or I should say, I absolutely agree with you here... except for the 'have to'. Either side of the fence, it would fill a book, or two... That is what Forums are for.

O.K. hands up, $10 short time $12 for the night.

[aughie]

Peyton Place

Sounds like My Fair Lady/ Pygmalion to me.

[mrmike]

whatever anyone or anything do (be it man, woman, child, animal or ET).....is doing it only because of SURVIVAL.....not  emotions, feelings, money, love, evil, kindness so on....all that is second and only tools for survival

so the big trick between man and woman is to rise boths survival index

easy, right  

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It is actually for 'procreation' not survival in and of the 'it's-self', but survival of the species. As in the obvious cases of the Black Widow spider and the Mantis.

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procreation is for survival as is eating, working, gettin da money, fishing, gettin friends, sensations, education, having fun, painting....so on....it all comes down to SURVIVAL...to better ones survival

when you see someone being honest its because its better for survival (when you see someone being dishonest its because the person believe his survival would go down being honest)

sometimes you see the opposit....being crazy.....trying to die instead (stay away!!)

[bajarider]

You have a good thing going; she'll be loyal if she really feels you love her. You've done good things for her and, in exchange, she'll take good care of you.

I am only 10 years senior to my wife. She did a 6 mo. BG tour about 5 years before I met her. I too have shown her a way to become educated and get a good job. She has blossomed into something better than I ever imagined.

My advice is this and only this. Contact Brian at "My Thai Fiance" in Bangkok. He is a really straight player and will give you some good insight on the Visa process and other USCIS info. He runs an ad in the Bangkok Post weekly. His phone is 02 676 2226. www.my-thai-fiance.com.

I did initially meet with two attorneys in Bangkok; both seemed untrustworthy.

I have done all my wifes paperwork; in hindsight the $1600 Brian charges is minimal compared to the time consuming paperwork and frustration I have endured.

If your time is valuable; find this guy and have a meeting at his office on Sathorn.

Good Luck

[meemiathai]

I have a philosophy that we 'choose' nothing whatsoever in our lives... nothing at all... Life just happens and we experience that happening. But that's another story.

Again some words of wisdom!

Does that mean I am praising myself?

[meemiathai]

when you see someone being honest its because its better for survival (when you see someone being dishonest its because the person believe his survival would go down being honest)

I agree!!!

[Scallywag]

Or find someone closer to your own age!!!!

You will find them much more attentive,loyal,much  better cooks ertc

just find a non bar gal and start from there, jees who needs the hassle of some gal thats had thousands of customers...

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This is about it.

Another sucker, leave the Bar Girls alone, so many nice girls why go for the trash????

[mrmike]

I have a philosophy that we 'choose' nothing whatsoever in our lives... nothing at all... Life just happens and we experience that happening. But that's another story.

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ofcource we do.....I mean...you do it all day long, dont you?

will you answer this comment from me?.......who:s choice......??

nothing just happens...what happens for sure is an effect....so something/someone MUST have CAUSED it.....right?

Im pretty sure....in your life...YOU did it!!

everything you done sofar.....is why you are where you are in the condition you are in.......good or bad....you did it

[mbkudu]

I have a philosophy that we 'choose' nothing whatsoever in our lives... nothing at all... Life just happens and we experience that happening. But that's another story.

ofcource we do.....I mean...you do it all day long, dont you?

will you answer this comment from me?.......who:s choice......??

nothing just happens...what happens for sure is an effect....so something/someone MUST have CAUSED it.....right?

Im pretty sure....in your life...YOU did it!!

everything you done sofar.....is why you are where you are in the condition you are in.......good or bad....you did it

Ravisher, you're losing it man. If I wanted to be a heroine addict living in the street, I could, I have a choice. Instead I choose not to be. I've chosen to be a semiproductive member of society instead. We take what is put in front of us or we go find something else. The last thing I want to be is a philosopher; cuts into too much time for fun.

[mbkudu]

I have a philosophy that we 'choose' nothing whatsoever in our lives... nothing at all... Life just happens and we experience that happening. But that's another story.

ofcource we do.....I mean...you do it all day long, dont you?

will you answer this comment from me?.......who:s choice......??

nothing just happens...what happens for sure is an effect....so something/someone MUST have CAUSED it.....right?

Im pretty sure....in your life...YOU did it!!

everything you done sofar.....is why you are where you are in the condition you are in.......good or bad....you did it

Ravisher, you're losing it man. If I wanted to be a heroine addict living in the street, I could, I have a choice. Instead I choose not to be. I've chosen to be a semiproductive member of society instead. We take what is put in front of us or we go find something else. The last thing I want to be is a philosopher; cuts into too much time for fun.

This is a huge subject, but I will try to put this into a small package:

What do we choose? We did not choose the way in which life evolved on this planet. We did not choose to be born, and our parents did not choose us. We do not choose our genetic make up. We do not choose our early environment... or the brain-washings, programming and conditioning we receive throughout our childhoods. Along with correct information, we are cheated on, lied to and given multitudes of false information... Father Christmas, the Tooth fairy, religions... politics... and all of our parents and elders false beliefs... etc. etc, ad infinitum.

If you were born in Thailand, chances are, you would have the Buddhist 'belief system'. If born in Turkey chances are we would be Moslem and share their 'belief system'. We are born with an empty hard drive on our computer (brain) the only common denominator is the 'Operating System'... like Window, but in most cases more stable. The operating system takes care of all the 'autonomous' stuff. From there on in, all depends on our 'programming/conditioning'. We are programmed from birth, by our parents and elders, then later on at school, from books and teachers, sights, sounds and every kind of stimulus to the senses.

As we progress, we develop a 'BELIEF SYSTEM' and a 'SELF IMAGE'... This belief system and self-image may have nothing whatsoever to do with 'REALITY'. Just because a billion people 'believe' something to be True... does not MAKE it True. We all carry our individual belief systems and self images based on our 'Programming/Conditioning' etc etc. All of this MAKES US WHAT WE ARE.

We are told by every religion and philosophy that we have 'free will'... this is a complete fallacy... we choose nothing in our entire lives. We 'calculate'. Each calculation will be different from person to person based on our belief system and self image. If we understand this basic truth, we can start to 'understand' other people. For example... A Moslem straps a bomb to himself and blows himself up along with 50 other people that in his 'belief system' are the 'enemy'. The rest of the world looks on in horror and thinks that the bomber is a maniac. He is no more a maniac than you or I. He just has a different belief system that is all. He believes that in doing deed he will go straight to Heaven. He believes what he is doing is 'good'... His beliefs are no more and no less 'valid' than yours or mine. They are just 'different'. His 'programming' MAKES him do what he does. In the same way that your programming MAKES you feel what you feel. If you are another Moslem, you may also feel that it is a good thing to kill as many of the "enemy" as you can in a suicide bombing... if not you may feel it is abhorrent, or something in between.

In nature, a male lion will kill a lioness's cubs just to bring her into heat quickly, so that he can mate with her and produce his 'own' cubs. This is not right or wrong... as abhorrent as it may seem to us humans. It is 'Nature' doing its job. In all nature there is no right or wrong... no good or bad... there is only Nature. Right and wrong, good and bad are just 'opinions' of human beings, nothing more and nothing less. Right and wrong, good and evil will depend again on our 'programming'. Again, just because a billion people believe something to be right does not make it right... it is just 'opinion' and those pinions are based on our belief systems.

The mind is a computer and highly sophisticated as it may be, it is still a computer. We 'use' the mind for computations and we do not choose we calculate. We calculate the best possible end outcome for ourselves with all our present knowledge of the subject at hand. Our calculations will give us a 'result' and then ‘WE DO THAT THING.’

For this reason you CANNOT choose to be a heroine street person. In FACT it is impossible for you to do so… being who and what you are at this moment in time.

Sorry about the LONG post...

This is good, but way too deep for my little pea brain. I just wanted a beer from the fridge, so I went and got it.

[easyb]

I have a philosophy that we 'choose' nothing whatsoever in our lives... nothing at all... Life just happens and we experience that happening. But that's another story.

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ofcource we do.....I mean...you do it all day long, dont you?

will you answer this comment from me?.......who:s choice......??

nothing just happens...what happens for sure is an effect....so something/someone MUST have CAUSED it.....right?

Im pretty sure....in your life...YOU did it!!

everything you done sofar.....is why you are where you are in the condition you are in.......good or bad....you did it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ravisher, you're losing it man. If I wanted to be a heroine addict living in the street, I could, I have a choice. Instead I choose not to be. I've chosen to be a semiproductive member of society instead. We take what is put in front of us or we go find something else. The last thing I want to be is a philosopher; cuts into too much time for fun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is a huge subject, but I will try to put this into a small package:

What do we choose? ...[deleted to just make this short]...

Sorry about the LONG post...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you writing a book????

Joking aside this is a great post. Thanks for taking the time to write it. Don't be sorry. We'd better off with more long and thoughful posts than short stupid ones.

easyb