Access Fees

[meemiathai]

The assumed solution would be to charge EVERYONE 20 baht.

I am certainly going to blush if I was to say something like that.

why? it's fair

What fair? It is your way of thinking it's fair.

Can you buy a bottle of coke with 20 baht in your country?

what does that have to do with anything, but for the record; coke for 50 cents?...yeah, you can find that.

You use 1 minute's salary in your country to enjoy something which other people use their whole day to achieve in their own country. Fair???

Do people complain about ladies' night in night clubs????

no, because they have those everywhere, including Thailand...if things are universally accepted, that's not at issue, but very few places have different admission rates to national parks based on race

What kind of discrimination is that if ladies get free while men don't? Oh I am not going to those places. It's not the money, it's the principle!

Universally accepted??? Who says so? Just because the people you hang around with does? Please don't apply those one-sided rules to everywhere you go. Not only things or rules in the west are right.

Can we put it that way?

All people are to be charged 200 baht, but for Thais they get 90% discount.

Is that OK?

no, unless you chose to accept racism

I don't have anymore to say.

The government owns all the national parks; they therefore have a monopoly on supply. The principles of free trade and supply and demand cease to work when anyone or anything holds a monopoly and can dictate any damned price they want.

They have the right to not let non-thais in as well!

that's fine...and watch them go down hill at an even faster pace then now to a point where no one wants to visit

People from weaker or poorer nations want also to feel proud of their countries.

It saddens me to see attitudes of farangs like these thinking that these certain countries need us. We are doing them charity. You can't survive without us. So you better do what we think is right.

[meemiathai]

No, that is not OK.  I do not support dual pricing based on race or nationality -- and it still surprises me that some people do.

First of all, we are not supporting it. We just think it is resonable and acceptable.

Secondly, based on what are the dual pricings you support or found acceptable?

OK, I'll play your little game: I do not find dual pricing based on race or nationality either reasonable or acceptable, because I believe that the price for any good or service should be fixed based upon the value of that good or service, combined with supply and demand factors if applicable-- not the perceived wealth or poverty of the prospective consumer. After all neither nationality nor race is a meaningful indicator of an individual person's wealth, is it?

Imagine the outrage if, in the US, Disneyland offered a special discount for blacks and Latins because, on average, they have lower income than whites. Or if a bar charged Japanese patrons higher prices than Chinese ones, because a study indicated that it took Japanese 25% longer to finish their drinks.

No...such madness is never acceptable, because it codifies the treatment of races or nationalities of people by stereotypes based on some "generality" that is obviously not true in all cases. Much better to have prices be driven by what is being delivered than by what the person doing the buying looks like.

You are not answering my question.

And the second paragraph is just an assumption and even if it is true, the whole world isn't going to follow their beliefs.

Let me also play your game then,

I do agree with charging the Japanese more if that is the case. So why is my principle wrong and yours right?

[meemiathai]

What are the dual pricings you support?

[PvtDick]

You'd charge an individual Japanese man more because "on average" Japanese take 25% longer to drink a bottle of beer -- even if this PARTICULAR Japanese drank his bottle in 30 seconds? You'd charge this individual based on the average of a group of people of his same national background?

If you can't see the illogic of such insanity, I have nothing more to say to you, really.

[aughie]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Thais be charged 200 baht for entrance to national parks.  The assumed solution would be to charge EVERYONE 20 baht.

The problem here is they would have to raise prices to make up for the lost revenue? So everyone would pay more for the entrance.

the majority of the revenue now is certainly not going to the improvements or the upkeep of the parks. any loss of revenue would or should come out of the higher-ups who personally squander the funds.

I see. I figured the government took the money and spent it on other projects much like the US government does. But in the this case it goes into corrupt individuals pockets who oversee the parks. Badly done.

Edited January 21, 2005 by aughie

[PvtDick]

I don't think anyone here (including myself) has any evidence of WHERE the money collected as entrance fees goes.

[meemiathai]

You'd charge an individual Japanese man more because "on average" Japanese take 25% longer to drink a bottle of beer -- even if this PARTICULAR Japanese drank his bottle in 30 seconds?  You'd charge this individual based on the average of a group of people of his same national background?

If you can't see the illogic of such insanity, I have nothing more to say to you, really.

Oh ho! Nearly banged my head. Why don't they put signs(western logic) to warn people of slippery floors?

Ok, if the system cannot distinguish who drank faster or slower, then?

I don't care if you have nothing to say about that but could you please answer my last question?

(asking you the 3rd time)

What are the dual pricings you support?

[meemiathai]

Where the money actually goes is irrelevant to the matter, isn't it?

We are talking about dual pricing, aren't we?

[lampard10]

You'd charge an individual Japanese man more because "on average" Japanese take 25% longer to drink a bottle of beer -- even if this PARTICULAR Japanese drank his bottle in 30 seconds?  You'd charge this individual based on the average of a group of people of his same national background?

If you can't see the illogic of such insanity, I have nothing more to say to you, really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've got a Belgian who takes two hours to drink a bottle of beer

[taxexile]

meemiathai said.

First of all, we are not supporting it. We just think it is resonable and acceptable

with "logic" like that you really must live your life in a strange and obtuse way !!

you couldnt argue yout way out of a paper bag !

[Thaiboxer]

It all boils down to one simple concept: It is wrong to charge a higher price just because somebody is not from your country. Some people on here will argue all day about how it's only pocket change to us, that we should help these poor people out, blah,blah,blah but the truth remains. It's up to us whether or not to accept a higher price or move on to another vendor who charges a fair price. Travellers get shafted the world over when it comes to pricing, but whether they can afford it or not is not the issue...it's still a rip-off.

[aaaaaa]

There is a site also for it where everybody can whine about double pricing

http://www.fairprice-thailand.org

if you don't like it , Don't go in , or turn back at the gate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think very good point! that is exactly what I did in Grand Palace and Emerald Buddha temple.... I let my friends go in - and told them I'll wait for them in appointed time and place....

on Kho Samet - well, my friend who's been there more often than me, has educated me what to do: we send one of us on the truck with all the luggage, and he paied the single fee of 200 B, and rest of us just walked through, buying on the way some fruits -like we already stay here on the island and simply went to the fuit stalls for some shopping and coming back....

another time - we took a bit of walk on the sea shore - little long, but pleasant - nice sand, waves....

but then - Kho Samet is Marine National Park as I recall.... they have to maintain it so after all.

P.S. I didn't know such web site exists! I admire Thais ! perhaps it not gonna change the situation - but at least shows their concern and care for fairness !

Edited January 22, 2005 by aaaaaa

[aaaaaa]

No, that is not OK.  I do not support dual pricing based on race or nationality -- and it still surprises me that some people do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

me neither... BUT - I simply accept. it is the only choise - otherwise, as someone esle said - simply don't pay , turn away - means don't accept. simple enough. not necessary to support.

and I agree with Dr John - he made short and precise exlpanation!

[The_Moog]

This topic is going nowhere -

Inequality exists.

The Tourism Authority of Thailand's Deputy Governor's response to this point was to shrug his shoulders.

The TAT Governor owns numerous houses - incommensurate with her wage level.

Live with it !

[sriracha john]

  Without the 200 baht payers most of the places would close or be in such a bad state of repair that you would not want to go, so do you sugest that even the Thais who can't afford it should pay 200 baht?

Perhaps it might persuade some people if the 200 baht was actually spent on worthwhile projects. How many foreigners have there been to Koh Samet in 5 years and paid 200 baht? That adds up to a huge sum. Now, how much was spent on the ring road there?... I dare say none as it's in the same deplorable shape as it was 5 years ago.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think anyone here (including myself) has any evidence of WHERE the money collected as entrance fees goes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As per an earlier post, "seeing is believing". If the majority of the money was NOT going into the pockets of the higher-ups, and was actually been spent to upgrade or maintain Koh Samet, for an example of a National Park, then surely we'd have seen improvements made as described earlier, with the ton of money that has been collected there over the past 5 years. As far as having "rock solid documentary evidence" of where it (the money) goes, I don't think that's an arena that can be safely entered. Higher-ups tend to wield a lot of weight, and if you try to implicate them, they tend to resort to less-than-friendly responses. Ask any relative of a dead NGO member about that. But the bottomline is...without the physical evidence of improvements, it's not difficult to ascertain where the money is and has been going.

Edited January 22, 2005 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

Where the money actually goes is irrelevant to the matter, isn't it?

We are talking about dual pricing, aren't we?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As far as I'm concerned, it's a huge part of the reluctance to submit to the double standards. If I could see my fees actually being put to actual, physical improvements, than that would make my participation in attending a national park worthwhile and my contribution purposeful....and I'd freely pay double on top of the 10 times rate.

[sriracha john]

on Kho Samet - well, my friend who's been there more often than me, has educated me what to do: we send one of us on the truck with all the luggage, and he paied the single fee of 200 B, and rest of us just walked through, buying on the way some fruits -like we already stay here on the island and simply went to the fuit stalls for some shopping and coming back....

another time - we took a bit of walk on the sea shore - little long, but pleasant - nice sand, waves.... 

shhhhhhhhhh....don't let the cat out of the bag... "anyone" can be reading that.

[sriracha john]

The Tourism Authority of Thailand's Deputy Governor's response to this point was to shrug his shoulders.

The TAT Governor owns numerous houses - incommensurate with her wage level.

Just to be technically correct, the National Parks don't fall under the TAT, but it does point out that higher-ups, no matter what the ministry they are in, benefit excessively from their position.

[TizMe]

All the Sex-pats and Sex Tourists that appose dual pricing should immediately boycott all sex related purchases.

There is no way a Thai man would fork out the amount that you do to pay for bar fines and the payment for "the act".

[Doctor John]

Yesterday I paid 20 baht to get into khao yai Park, I am White, if it was a racist 200 baht charge, I would have been charged 200 Baht.........................

I was not charged 200 Baht, I was charged 20 Baht, so how is it a racist charge?

Is it discrimination against non thai people that have no work permit or driving license?

Jeeez, I would happily pay the 200 baht if I had no license, costs me 200 baht to go 100 metres in a taxi in Tokyo. Take the bus from Geneva airport to Grenoble, it is a 2 hour trip, price = 2700 baht , yea , sure all people pay the same extortinate prices, tourists and locals alike, but if Thai people had to pay 200 baht to go to a Park, they could not go, and if they lowered the price for farangs to 20 baht, do you honestly think you would be running off to a national park every weekend now you can get in for 20 baht?

Just get a Thai driving License for 100 baht and save 180 baht on your next trip to a national park.

Lucky the Thai government don't come up with a moaning and whinging tax, then you guys would really be in trouble.

[taxexile]

Is it discrimination against non thai people that have no work permit or driving license?

Jeeez, I would happily pay the 200 baht if I had no license, costs me 200 baht to go 100 metres in a taxi in Tokyo. Take the bus from Geneva airport to Grenoble, it is a 2 hour trip, price = 2700 baht , yea , sure all people pay the same extortinate prices, tourists and locals alike, but if Thai people had to pay 200 baht to go to a Park, they could not go, and if they lowered the price for farangs to 20 baht, do you honestly think you would be running off to a national park every weekend now you can get in for 20 baht?

Just get a Thai driving License for 100 baht and save 180 baht on your next trip to a national park.

well ..... it seems some people need telling twice

as can be seen yet again when this subject is discussed , some people just cant see that this is not about being able to afford 100 or 200 baht , that is not the point at all. if that was the case then thais who drove up to parks in bmw's would be charged more than thais who arrived 4-up on an old motor bike.

its about charging according to race and nationality.

and to accept it with a smile is quite frankly demeaning,weak and pathetic.

its like saying "i know i'm being cheated and treated unfairly , but i'm such a dumb fck loser i'll give you what you unfairly demand of me , not only that i'll smile as you fleece me too. i'll be your performing monkey too if thats what you want."

smile and pay up?.......lay down and die first !

give dr. john his well earned banana !

Edited January 22, 2005 by taxexile

[Doctor John]

You guys make me cringe.................

I think I will not pay 20 baht in the future, I think I will not show my Thai driving license and pay 200 baht, then I can go on a forum and moan about it........hahaha.

You don't wanna pay, get a license or just don't go and save your money for the copious ammount of beer you moaning old men must drink.

I bet you guys sit about moaning all day long..................

I am off to Phu Luang National Park, see ya.

Edited January 22, 2005 by Doctor John

[Doctor John]

well ..... it seems some people need telling twice

its about charging according to race and nationality.

If it was about race and nationality, why was I not charged 200 baht ?

Seems like you need a banana.

[taxexile]

If it was about race and nationality, why was I not charged 200 baht

in probably 95% of parks etc. a foriegner will be asked for 200b to enter. sometimes on production of a thai licence or by good natured banter with the gatekeeper the foriegner may be allowed to enter at the thai price. as i have said before , there are many thais , including park gatekeepers , who view this double pricing as immoral and unjustified , maybe the keeper at khow yai park is one of them , maybe your thai partner spoke on your behalf . there could be many reasons why you went in for 20b.

in the other 5% the gatekeeper either probably cant be bothered to get into an argument with a disgruntled farang or hasn't been instructed by his boss to implement the policy.

whatever the case , double pricing according to race or immigration status is immoral and those who go along with it are kowtowing to a nasty practice.

I am off to Phu Luang National Park, see ya.

enjoy your trip.

[WilliamIV]

There are aspects that have so far been ignored.

WHAT is the REASON for the visit?

Grand Palace :

Tourists now Bht250 but Thai free

Here the assumption is that Thais are entering to pay homage to the Emerald Buddha in Wat Phra kaew. Tourists are entering to look.

I see NO problem here.

National Parks:

Tourists are usually making a one off Curiousity visit.

Most Thais will be paying a regular visit for a Pic-Nic or holiday week-end.

Bht 200 for Curiosity is for me Good Value.

Bht 20 Discount price for Regular (or potential Regular) Customers seems OK to me.

Private Crocodile “Farms” , Safari World – even here the one off Tourist Curiosity attraction / regular Thai visitor distinction can be argued.

AND Super Markets & Restaurants – (Black Canyon, Swensens), do give discounts to those who choose to purchase a Membership Card. Most Tourists will not do this – are probably not aware – will probably not be economical to them. So Residents (Including Farang) will enjoy cheaper prices at these places.

Cinemas – Discounts for Senior Citizens – Thai AND Farang

(Naturally there will be exceptions to these generalisations)

Bill

[Ijustwannateach]

I have been inconsistently subject to these double standards of charging- depending, often, on whether I was with Thais or not on my visits. I'm a legal resident worker who pays taxes here based on a salary I earn here, and I have the paperwork to prove it (tax card, etc.) Recently, some of these places give the Thai price to those with similar paperwork- but it should be routine at all of them, otherwise it *is* racist. Not that it's all that important or that I go to those places so often- probably more an oversight of intelligence in the bureaucracy (oops- you mean that not *all* farang are tourists???- I can hear the IQ80 gate guard asking)

"Steven"

[eljeque]

I don't whine about it. luckily enough I can afford it, but it doesn't make sense do me.

i had the experience that in european sky resorts people living there have less to pay for a season pass than visitors,

People living in that specific area. Not everyone in that country.

but that I can understand it's like in florida as a florida resident you get a one year pass to disney world for the same price as visitors would have to pay for a 3 day pass

That applies to people in Florida, not people in the rest of the USA.

If Thailand had a rule, that people in one province paid a lower price than people from other provinces and other countries, no foreigner would mind

IN my state, and I am sure a lot of others in the USA, a resident of the

state might pay 1500 dollars / quarter for a state university. An out of state resident, or out of the country resident might pay 3000 dollars / quarter.

It is done by the state to keep prices down for people of that state

who have been paying taxes to support that state.

as the guy in charge for it explained to me that's to make them bring your family and friends

[Kan Win]

To all that asked questions about my post ….

The main reason I go to these place is because most people going there do not see Thailand as one does, hence I try to show this Country in a different light, as I do live here and have a little more time to spend on the wonders that one sees, more than most tourist have the time to see Thailand.

And tourists/non tourists from all over the world Kan view my photo’s for FREE (just cost me a few stang more or less) and enjoy The Kingdom of Thailand , which BTW is my home. Hence why I do it.

Thank you.

As for you taxexile (just the national parks BTW) I do not go to Pat & Pat on this as mentioned in one of your posts on this Fred:-

Anyway, Kwai you so nosy about Kan Win?

Well since you asked:-

As a refugee from a Western European country after WWII, which never gave me a Permanent Resident in the early 50’s, The Kingdom of Thailand gave me one in my 50’s.

Now you know......................

And yes I Kan Win

Yours as always,

Kan Win

P.S. Tks Darknight for the wim ??? .....