Hillsborough ...discussion

[StevieH]

don't really know where to begin with that sheff mick. i'll start by asking if you've read the taylor report? and also perhaps by stating that liverpool fc has never defended the actions of those responsible for the tragic loss of life at heysel and also by stating that the two horrible indcidents of heysel and hillsborough are absolutely in no way comparable.

[sheff_mick]

don't really know where to begin with that sheff mick. i'll start by asking if you've read the taylor report? and also perhaps by stating that liverpool fc has never defended the actions of those responsible for the tragic loss of life at heysel and also by stating that the two horrible indcidents of heysel and hillsborough are absolutely in no way comparable.

We at Hillsborough wish to defend what is not in the Taylor report Stevie and i am not in any way refering to yourself.

No, they are not comparable as the Hillsborough disaster was a tragic accident.

The Heysel Stadium tragedy was not.

It was if you saw it on the day mindless thuggery and uncontrollable hate that caused that loss of life, i,m sad to say.

I mention these particular incidents as over the years since the Hillsborough disaster, certain supporters have made these individuals non accountable and go as far as to defend their innocence of capability.

Even saying no significant amount of supporters were drunk or disorderly enough to make a difference.

Or words to that effect, both in the report and otherwise.

To use a word Kopite refers to, this is bullsh*te

Closure is now required, while not forgetting what happened, on all sides

Twenty years for the Hillsborough tragedy and 24 for the Heysel tragedy.

With respect unreservedly acknowledged, personally to everyone.

I will never forget the loss of life 20 / 24 years ago inflicted on innocent supporters who wanted nothing more than to cheer their respective teams on.

[StevieH]

We at Hillsborough wish to defend what is not in the Taylor report Stevie and i am not in any way refering to yourself.

No, they are not comparable as the Hillsborough disaster was a tragic accident.

The Heysel Stadium tragedy was not.

It was if you saw it on the day mindless thuggery and uncontrollable hate that caused that loss of life, i,m sad to say.

I mention these particular incidents as over the years since the Hillsborough disaster, certain supporters have made these individuals non accountable and go as far as to defend their innocence of capability.

Even saying no significant amount of supporters were drunk or disorderly enough to make a difference.

Or words to that effect, both in the report and otherwise.

To use a word Kopite refers to, this is bullsh*te

Closure is now required, while not forgetting what happened, on all sides

Twenty years for the Hillsborough tragedy and 24 for the Heysel tragedy.

With respect unreservedly acknowledged, personally to everyone.

I will never forget the loss of life 20 / 24 years ago inflicted on innocent supporters who wanted nothing more than to cheer their respective teams on.

i'm afraid you're off-beam completely sheff mick, the taylor report stated that supporter behaviour was not to blame for the hillsborough disaster, and it was not as you claim 'a tragic accident'. south yorkshire police were negligent and unprofessional on the day of hillsborough and have attempted to cover up their negligence ever since - and as such are to blame for the loss of life. until the senior officers on duty on the day admit their culpability and apologise to the families of those who lost their lives, there can be no 'closure'. your post appears to request that those who lost others should just forgive, forget and move on - which they should not.

heysel was a horrific tragedy but absolutely different from hillsborough. i would never attempt to defend those who rioted at heysel but as a number of reports have pointed out since 1985, the stadium UEFA chose for the final was unfit for purpose, people lost their lives tragically when a wall collapsed as fans attempted to escape fighting, and segregation of fans and stewarding in the stadium were inadequate for an event of that type in the climate in which it was played.

fans were a major contributing factor to the loss of life at heysel, but you are absolutely wrong to attempt to place any blame on fan behaviour for hillsborough. sorry.

[highchol]

quote sheff mick

"Had the fans acted responsibly, i truly believe to this day that the loss of those 96 victims would never have happened."

Respectfully.

Whatever the mistakes of the police that tragic day, I do beleive the silent majority of football supporters know that irresponsible fan behaviour was indeed the root cause.

RIP the 96

[sheff_mick]

We at Hillsborough wish to defend what is not in the Taylor report Stevie and i am not in any way refering to yourself.

No, they are not comparable as the Hillsborough disaster was a tragic accident.

The Heysel Stadium tragedy was not.

It was if you saw it on the day mindless thuggery and uncontrollable hate that caused that loss of life, i,m sad to say.

I mention these particular incidents as over the years since the Hillsborough disaster, certain supporters have made these individuals non accountable and go as far as to defend their innocence of capability.

Even saying no significant amount of supporters were drunk or disorderly enough to make a difference.

Or words to that effect, both in the report and otherwise.

To use a word Kopite refers to, this is bullsh*te

Closure is now required, while not forgetting what happened, on all sides

Twenty years for the Hillsborough tragedy and 24 for the Heysel tragedy.

With respect unreservedly acknowledged, personally to everyone.

I will never forget the loss of life 20 / 24 years ago inflicted on innocent supporters who wanted nothing more than to cheer their respective teams on.

i'm afraid you're off-beam completely sheff mick, the taylor report stated that supporter behaviour was not to blame for the hillsborough disaster, and it was not as you claim 'a tragic accident'. south yorkshire police were negligent and unprofessional on the day of hillsborough and have attempted to cover up their negligence ever since - and as such are to blame for the loss of life. until the senior officers on duty on the day admit their culpability and apologise to the families of those who lost their lives, there can be no 'closure'. your post appears to request that those who lost others should just forgive, forget and move on - which they should not.

heysel was a horrific tragedy but absolutely different from hillsborough. i would never attempt to defend those who rioted at heysel but as a number of reports have pointed out since 1985, the stadium UEFA chose for the final was unfit for purpose, people lost their lives tragically when a wall collapsed as fans attempted to escape fighting, and segregation of fans and stewarding in the stadium were inadequate for an event of that type in the climate in which it was played.

fans were a major contributing factor to the loss of life at heysel, but you are absolutely wrong to attempt to place any blame on fan behaviour for hillsborough. sorry.

No problem we will after all have to differ on our personal opinions of what happened at Hillsborough as seen from different perspectives.

I repeat IF there had been an orderly state of affairs at Leppins Lane, then NONE of what unfolded, would have happened.

You must realise that there where games at least every other week at SWFC and even taking the drinking binges that take place prior to kick off, never before, or indeed since, has such a tragic loss of life via unruly bahaviour ect ever happened.

That was an unintended scenario and therefore an accident, ( accident as in.. unfortunate esp. harmful event, NOT caused intentionally.)

The Heysel Stadium was not unintended and could even be classed as murder in the mind of some, especially in the country it took place in ???

Incidently, it speaks volumes when it comes to what one feels after what happened and the demand by certain fans to never forget what happened.

They then go and do the likes of what happened in Athens, seems to me certain rememberances of Hillsboroughs tragedy are a bit non existant because those who went on their thuggish way in Athens, seems to suggest they STILL do not respect not care about the freedom and law abiding way of other innocents.

Not to mention the authorities of law and order.

[StevieH]

quote sheff mick

"Had the fans acted responsibly, i truly believe to this day that the loss of those 96 victims would never have happened."

Respectfully.

Whatever the mistakes of the police that tragic day, I do beleive the silent majority of football supporters know that irresponsible fan behaviour was indeed the root cause.

RIP the 96

and i'll say, not so respectfully, you're absolutely wrong and you're propagating the myths put forward since hillsborough by the south yorkshire police and the thatcher administration.

[StevieH]

i'm dipping out of this thread now. i'm not going to continue to try and debate reasonably with people who won't accept the independently reported truth of a tragedy and who will continue to propagate lies and slander on people who went to a football match and died. shameful shit.

[NALAK]

this UEFA report shows Liverpool fans have not learnt from Hillsborough. they rushed the entrances again and could have caused the same senorio. Again Liverpool FC blame organisation by the local authorities. it is time Liverpool fans started to respect each other.

Liverpool Fans The Worst In Europe Says Uefa

A damning Uefa report branding Liverpool fans the worst in Europe is to be presented to sports minister Richard Caborn.European football's governing body says there have been more incidents involving Reds supporters than any others.

Trouble flares in Athens

The report is based on the findings of undercover police agents over the last four years.

It paints a damning picture of Liverpool fans' behaviour at last month's Champions League final in Athens, which Milan won 2-1.

There were violent scenes outside the stadium and inside after many fans gained access with forged tickets - and in some cases no tickets at all.

Uefa spokesman William Gaillard said: "The incidents involving Liverpool fans have been well known to us before the trouble at the Champions League final.

"That was just the latest example. What other set of fans steal tickets from their fellow supporters or out of the hands of children?

"We know what happened in Athens, and Liverpool fans were the cause of most of the trouble there."

He went on:"There have been 25 incidents involving Liverpool fans away from home since 2003 and these are in the report - most teams' supporters do not cause any trouble at all."

Gaillard added: "You must ask yourself why at the same match, with the same conditions, there was no trouble with the Milan fans - only the Liverpool fans."

[redscouse]

It seems we have a couple of s*n readers in here.

one thing I did not see mentioned in here was the cause of the build of fans outside the Leppings Lane was not caused by a sudden rush from the pub, it was caused by traffic being delayed on the M62 and kick off should have been delayed.

speaking as an ex police officer who worked the stadiums at both Liverpool and Everton I am well aware of crowd control and saw it work every week, South Yorkshire Police Bottled it on the day, the kick off should have been delayed, this would have been the first action they should have taken. The filtration system outside the Leppings lane should have been used as it was used successfully the previous year when the same two teams met at the same stadium (I will ignore the fact that we have more supporters and should have had the kop end at Hillsborough). the mounted police failed to control the build up of fans at the turnstile, it is clear when sat so high how to control a crowd, the horses are used to move fans and they are used successfully.

The opening of the gate was forced on them by their failure to perform their duty outside of the stadium. It was clear to the Chief Superintendent (David Duckenfield) inside the stadium that the centre pens were too full, once he gave the order to open the gate the fans should have been filtered to the outer pens, sadly they were tunnelled into an already over loaded pen.

It was obvious to the police pitchside that there was a crush, they failed to act and tried to push fans back in to the leppings lane, it was only when fans got onto the pitch and went to the referee that any action was taken.

South Yorkshire Police failed that day, and then tried to cover up that failure, officers have since admitted that their statement were altered, the fans were absolved from any blame, however no prosecutions were brought against South Yorkshire Police despite their negligence and perjury since the disaster.

Using nice words and saying you are being respectful while putting the blame on people who have already been found to be innocent of wrong doing, in not being respectful in my opinion, I would have more respect if you just come out and said what is really on your minds, Likening to Heysel is in my opinion an attempt at saying you rep what you sow. the two events are as different as chalk and cheese. Also heysel is remembered on an annual basis, those fans are remembered and nobody tries to shove heysel under the mat. sadly there was ill feeling between the Liverpool fans and Italians after the stabbing of a large number of Liverpool fans when we played Roma in the final in Rome. these stabbing continued in heysel before the game. There was ill feeling, however the stupidity of UEFA in allowing Italian fans to enter part of the ground next to Liverpool fans, in a stadium that was not built for large crowds or football crowds played a part in this, added to the weak brussels Police and the assault on a young Liverpool fan by juve fans in that pen, well this all added up an resulted in Liverpool fans (wrongly) charging the italians, they promptly ran, a wall collapsed and very sadly people died. Were Liverpool fans totally to blame for this? no, however they take a large portion and many fans went to prison. I might also remind you of the italian who came out of the juve end brandishing a pistol so lets not fool ourselves that the juve fans were sitting eating cucumber sandwiches.

I hope this goes some way to explaining the differences,I am sure some Liverpool fans had been drinking, I am sure this was not the cause of the disaster.

As for moving on, would I move on if I had lost a loved one and the person who caused that with his negligence just went on sick leave and then drifted off with his pension? not a cat in hells chance. The events that day made me ashamed to be a policeman with the cover up that went on.

anyway......................................

[redscouse]

this UEFA report shows Liverpool fans have not learnt from Hillsborough. they rushed the entrances again and could have caused the same senorio. Again Liverpool FC blame organisation by the local authorities. it is time Liverpool fans started to respect each other.

Liverpool Fans The Worst In Europe Says Uefa

A damning Uefa report branding Liverpool fans the worst in Europe is to be presented to sports minister Richard Caborn.European football's governing body says there have been more incidents involving Reds supporters than any others.

Trouble flares in Athens

The report is based on the findings of undercover police agents over the last four years.

It paints a damning picture of Liverpool fans' behaviour at last month's Champions League final in Athens, which Milan won 2-1.

There were violent scenes outside the stadium and inside after many fans gained access with forged tickets - and in some cases no tickets at all.

Uefa spokesman William Gaillard said: "The incidents involving Liverpool fans have been well known to us before the trouble at the Champions League final.

"That was just the latest example. What other set of fans steal tickets from their fellow supporters or out of the hands of children?

"We know what happened in Athens, and Liverpool fans were the cause of most of the trouble there."

He went on:"There have been 25 incidents involving Liverpool fans away from home since 2003 and these are in the report - most teams' supporters do not cause any trouble at all."

Gaillard added: "You must ask yourself why at the same match, with the same conditions, there was no trouble with the Milan fans - only the Liverpool fans."

Oh yes, Uefa were quick to pass the buck on that one, they could not organise a piss up in a brewery. and yes I am ashamed of some fans that night and do not condone the stealing an the bunking in, but then again uefa do have to shoulder some of the responsibility.

Now listen this is a Hillsborough thread, it was set up to respect innocent people that lost their lives that day and I find the nit picking to be very disrespectful.

bare that in mind before any one replies

[kopite]

Respectfully offered and in no way being disrespectful to what happened to the 96 victims.

Seems to me that when it comes to the history of LFC there have over the years been several problems to say the least with regard to certain LFC supporters that need remembering and taken into account.

There is no accountablity when it comes to crowd trouble of a similar nature, especially the infamous Heysel stadium riots prior to the tragic Hillsborough disaster which was an horrific show of what the fans are capable of.

Quoted reaction on the incident

Players' and supporters' reactions

Several Juventus players and supporters have expressed unhappiness with the way Juventus dealt with the incident, in that they displayed the trophy in their trophy cabinet straight after the game, and didn't do enough to help the bereaved families, for example, not having any kind of memorial to the supporters who died.[15] Despite efforts by Liverpool F.C. and sections of the media to suggest otherwise, the majority of Juventus supporters have never forgiven the Liverpool supporters for their actions at Heysel and have displayed these sentiments on many occasions since.[citation needed]

Some Liverpool players and supporters feel that it was wrong to blame the disaster solely on Liverpool supporters. They believe other factors, such as the ticketing arrangements and inadequate policing, contributed to the events. As mentioned above, Liverpool players and supporters also argue that Heysel was not adequate for a major football match; indeed, Liverpool's official account of the disaster implies that it would have never happened had UEFA staged it at any other ground that was available at the time. The fact that there was never an official inquiry also raised eyebrows.[2]

[b]A number of commentators have questioned Liverpool's handling of the disaster, particularly in comparison to high profile 'Justice for the 96' campaign fought after the Hillsborough Disaster - Liverpool Football Club has never accepted culpability, or responsibility for the actions of its fans and has never formally apologised for the events or compensated the families of those killed.[17][18][19] although in 2005 the Liverpool Echo published a front page emblazoned with the words 'We're Sorry' reflecting a widespread opinion that the fans of Liverpool Football Club were the main culprits and had brought shame upon the city. [/b]

End of my reference and back to personal comment

Remember the Champions league final in Athens 2007 when LFC supporters where branded the worst in Europe after disturbing scenes that included fans stealing tickets from fellow supporters and lots more by Uefa.

Some of them very young by the way ?

As a local resident i witnessed lots of problems with supporters trying to force their way into Hillsborough and seeing a mounted policeman being litterally lifted off the ground by the force of the crowd.

I also saw distressed family members with children trying to move away from the lead up to the turn styles.

I also saw supporters pushing their way to the front and climbing over the walls at either side of the turnstyles and not giving a care about what was unfolding, either outside or inside.

The ground was sanctioned as safe by the FA authorities, irrespective of conflicting reports made after the event when looking for what and who to blame.

Had the fans acted responsibly, i truly believe to this day that the loss of those 96 victims would never have happened.

The fences by the way in case anyone needs reminding, where erected, following FA advice related to previous incidents of crowd trouble with the Heysel Stadium riots being the main factor.

( The effect the fences had on us supporters getting our view of the game was well documented, along with our protests on this. )

I won,t go into further stuff i used to witness on a regular basis, not only on this tragic day, but over several years preceeding

it.

Liverpool, Newcastle United, Man. United, Leeds and Everton where the clubs mainly responsible for most of it.

If you wish to, Google Shenstone Road opposite the Leppings Lane end, this is the rat run several of the above supporters used after parking at the bottom of the street on spare ground where i lived for several years and along with other local residents, suffered abuse of all kinds from them.

We used to dread what was going to happen if results went against them.

I am heartbroken to this day on what happened at my beloved Hillsborough as are all SWFC and am sick of certain hypocrosy that is associated with what happened.

May the 96 victims RIP.

May the 39 victims of Heysel also RIP.

* When i refer to " supporters " i am not in anyway including the majority who are loyal, decent, law abiding, genuine football fans.

May the hypocrisy stop and accountability for all those responsible be taken into consideration to part quote your post 11

The official reports do not in my opinion reflect what i and many, many others witnessed on the day.

Over the years we have tried in vain to highlight our views, but because of what happened, and rightly so, it is considered insensitive and disrespectful we do not continue with it.

I agree with this entirely and unless i read stuff that ignores our version of events i keep a silent observation out due respect for the victims and their families.

By the way Kopite when we consider previous and after the event history your posts 6, never forgive. post 11 accountability, and post 22, an apology never enough, sound a little contradictory when applying these to the events i have listed.

We at SWFC are and always will be unconsolable in our grief for what took place, supposedly in the name of football and the so called beautiful game.

Let us not forget Nottingham Forest and other guest supporters and the effects it had on them, by the way.

I hope this post is respectfully accepted by the mods as a balanced response to bullshit references ect. by Kopite and not censored.

All remarks are relevant to respecting what happened and why 96 fans lost their lives.

i did type a lengthy reply, but deleted it. no point arguing with somebody like you, and just so you know, people were held accountable for the heysel disaster, but of course you wouldnt research that would you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt1bhwXueMs

JFT 96

[sheff_mick]

Like all such tragedies of this nature it is always considered sensitive when someone has a different view on what the findings are considered the cause to be.

Over the years it has always been used as a reason why we should not to comment, this includes high profile ministers ( MP,s )

Amazingly it only ever comes up when someone like me, who rather than be guided by the " Taylor report " bases their view on how some of the fans where behaving and the totally inconsiderate and dangerous way they acted.

How many of those on this thread for example where actually outside the area queuing up to enter the ground and able to view the chaotic build up that took place ( for what ever reasons )

" Read the Taylor report for the truth " i and many others are constantly told, when we are stating what we actually saw with our own eyes. as if we didn,t see it.

No report is ever going to change our experiences based on this .

I mentioned my home street Shenstone Road at the time and will take it a step further for anyone wishing to investigate it, via Google.

When coming out of Shenstone, turn right and walk a very short distance, bare round to the right to the bridge that goes over the river Don.

If you stand around half way across it you will get a view of the area where the Leppings Lane end can be sighted.

Better still if you stand on the wall there is plenty of unobstructed viewing area to see it all.

You can, i guarantee see what i am on about, re the build up and the behaviour of the chaos caused by fans fighting their way through the fans patiently waiting to get in, starting way back down to the left of Leppings Lane.

If only todays technology and CTV had been available at the time and located as it now is in all areas where crowds gather for what ever reasons, especially Football Grounds then the Taylor report would have had a different perspective on the enquiry.

It wasn,t so it,s a case of the report vs sighting accounts and the conflicting outcomes.

It,s amazing that you still cannot see the Heysel Stadium riot for what it actually was and what LFC fans did on that night of terror and all that unfolded.

You keep mentioning additional enquiries in the case of Hillsborough when there wasn,t even an initial one done on the scale of the one re the Taylor Report, irrespective of what one thinks of it,s conclusion.

The usual lame excuses come out about actual accountablity when it was obvious for all to see the murderous thuggery that took place there at Heysel and yes it was LFC fans running riot

Hillsborough was not premeditated nor was it intentional by it,s outcome like the actions of the thugs that went crazy at Heysel.

Sure there is blame to go round re our beloved stadium, but let us include those who started the chaos we all witnessed as onlookers from our vantage point on the bridge.

Most match days when i was home it was a place to be and witness the crazy antics of the various sets of fans.

( not life threatening, i am pleased to add )

It was an accident caused by several factors including the points listed, but these conclusions where reached after the event, not before it and certain areas we have commented on over the years, were in our opinion whitewashed or pianted over if you like, for what ever reasons.

To all you supporters wh were around at the time in the 80,s prior to what happened.

How many of the stadiums and police authorities ect. were geared up to the extent our police force and authorities were

criticsized for.

Many grounds and there authorities were in a much worse envirorment than ours and if you are honest enough will admit it.

Sadly we were the ones that had the awful experience of being " the one "when it could have been any of the grounds on any given day, around the U.K.

Boy have we been made to suffer since it happened and made out to be what many LFC supporters now the one and only ground that this awful tragedy could have occured at.

By the way SWFC is not an intimidation place to be and threatening, unlike Anfield.

I used to lodge at Albert Terrace ( if my memory of 46 years ago is correct ) alongside Anfield and on match days you daren,t even speak as the fans used to intimidate anyone who did not have a scouse accent, among other less sociable things.

Probably been knocked down now.

As for the pub next to the ground on the right side of main road, you entered there at your own peril even in them days when violence was practically non existed in relation to years later.

[sheff_mick]

Amazing reactions, but typical of not recognising the truth when it is not complimentary.

It is the truth that i post, not fiction, based on experience and observation.

The footage you mention is a site at the stadium, not from a reasonable position where you can see the big picture of events unfolding.

Boy, if only i could have documented it, along with the sound, from the vantage point i describe.

<deleted> by the way, read my post and you will note how i describe my digs that i do not read whatever to get my info.

It again is based purely on my personal experiences.

The majority of the football world will also say similar things about the troublesome fans that compliment my take on them.

[sheff_mick]

The thread headliner just for observations does not say Respect for the 96 who died.

It is as it reads, Replying to Hillsborough - 20 years on

My comments are not aimed at the 96 who died and no way am i, nor would i, be disrespectful to them.

What i am doing is replying to posts and observations on the thread and offering my thoughts on what happened based on seeing and observing, along with references of 2 other important instances, one of which ( Heysel ) others have mentioned also, before i did.

The responses by the members who seem to think we cannot have opposing views ON WHAT TOOK PLACE ( nothing to do with the respect of the 96 who lost their lives ) is typical.

<deleted>, <deleted> and several f*cks and <deleted> off, bitter old <deleted> and other comments on my inane ramblings and character, for me, sum up your mentality and sense of fair play towards others, who do not happen to go along with your one sided bias views and not even bothering to read my posts through going on some of your further comments.

Once again the spirit of give and take we are all familiar with relating to certain LFC fans and the predictable outbursts because i for one differ from what you want me to go along with is there for all to see.

This was a well known trait of certain supporters around that time and goes with the well known intimidation that goes with it.

I will do as you wish and jog off now and promise to keep off the thread out of respect for the 96 victims who at the end of the day suffered the ultimate price at my beloved Hillsborough.

May god bless them all and may they be reunited with their loved ones one day.

Sincerely offered and hoped for them and all others who paid the ultimate price elsewhere in the name of football.

Still saddened after all this time, so...............silence is now golden for all of them

P.S.

I would hope, with the same token, you will not make any further disrespectful comments on those who have differing thoughts on the reasons why it happened.

[sheff_mick]

mick, there is no need to have differing thoughts on why it happened, we all know why it happened, the report states why it happened, you seem to have differing thoughts against the official findings which is why your thoughts are seen for what they are, pointless and aimed at insult and disrespect. You also liken it Heysel, chalk and cheese.

lets hope this is the end of it, it's an emotive issue for many people and to get someone who does not appear to be in possession of the facts and disputing the official findings can lead to annoyance.

You just will not leave it but i will keep my silence in any case irrespective of this latest comment which would just start it all off if i responded in kind.

[StevieH]

You just will not leave it but i will keep my silence in any case irrespective of this latest comment which would just start it all off if i responded in kind.

'you just will not leave it'? strangely, 20 years of fighting for justice will do that.

you should really do yourself and everybody else a favour and shut up with your spurious rumour-mongering.

[bkkjames]

where's migsy and her 'play nice' talk.

[StevieH]

where's migsy and her 'play nice' talk.

balls to 'play nice' where hillsborough is concerned i'm afraid james. if someone wants to continue to spout misguided, ill-informed and downright offensive crap about the worst tragedy in football history then i reserve the right to tell him to fuc_k off. i'd expect you to do similar regarding abuse about munich as it goes and i'd back you 100%.

[bkkjames]

where's migsy and her 'play nice' talk.

balls to 'play nice' where hillsborough is concerned i'm afraid james. if someone wants to continue to spout misguided, ill-informed and downright offensive crap about the worst tragedy in football history then i reserve the right to tell him to fuc_k off. i'd expect you to do similar regarding abuse about munich as it goes and i'd back you 100%.

i am not taking sides stevie, think i made my point on this a few posts ago.

anyways, just would say that the more bitching that goes back and forth, the less it seems like a time to pay respect to those killed and more about proving who's right and wrong.

[sheff_mick]

where's migsy and her 'play nice' talk.

balls to 'play nice' where hillsborough is concerned i'm afraid james. if someone wants to continue to spout misguided, ill-informed and downright offensive crap about the worst tragedy in football history then i reserve the right to tell him to fuc_k off. i'd expect you to do similar regarding abuse about munich as it goes and i'd back you 100%.

[Mossfinn]

I am a little disappointed that what should have been a thread regarding comment for remembrance has degenerated into a flame fest.

For those that were there and for those of us who saw the events unfold on TV will forever have those images burned into our psyche.

We should never forget and justice should be sought and I also believe forgiveness for those that perpetrated those dreadful events.

What should have happened here, in my opinion, is that Sheff Mick open a new thread to discuss his views, where upon others could have commented and a forthright and frank exchange of views regarding conflicting opinions of what happened that fateful day, that way any, intended or percieved disrespect could have been channelled away from this thread and so remain, a thread of remembrance.

If it had been in another thread, I see no problem with Sheff Micks post, he details an opposing point of view and should at least be respected, it holds no water with the official enquiry and the largely held views that what was reported immediately after the event was hyperbole, fiction and down right slander.

Rest in Peace the '96

If justice is to prevail and the files that maybe released earlier than required could be a start, but I have a distinct feeling that they could contain similar material to what was released to John Stalker in his enquiry of the RUC, I.E Empty folders, not that I am pre-judging the Police on this one!

Moss

Edit: i for an I

[Chaimai]

I am a little disappointed that what should have been a thread regarding comment for remembrance has degenerated into a flame fest.

For those that were there and for those of us who saw the events unfold on TV will forever have those images burned into our psyche.

We should never forget and justice should be sought and I also believe forgiveness for those that perpetrated those dreadful events.

What should have happened here, in my opinion, is that Sheff Mick open a new thread to discuss his views, where upon others could have commented and a forthright and frank exchange of views regarding conflicting opinions of what happened that fateful day, that way any, intended or percieved disrespect could have been channelled away from this thread and so remain, a thread of remembrance.

I agree entirely with Mossfin's comments.

This thread is rightly about remembrance of the 96 who died at Hillsborough and, as such, should focus solely on respect and justice for those who died.

Of course, there are other issues and views surrounding that day and if someone wants to start a seperate topic - so be it.

This one respects the anniversary, which it has largely achieved, and I would suggest that it is now closed to avoid any further divergence from the objective.

[mrtoad]

Well having read this thread, it's dissapointing to see some of the coments made. This tragedy could so easily have been avoided, but was bullsed up by ignorent policing, which resulted in 96 detahs. What was even more distatsteful was the lies spouted to try and cover up the misdeeds of the Plod on that day. I guess back in 1989 under, the despot Thatcher any football fan was brandished a thug, and she probably had favours to owe to the South Yorkshire police for helping her put all those miners on the dole.

Rant over, but I for one hope that finally the full truth comes out, and all those accountable are bought to justice.

[sheff_mick]

Well having read this thread, it's dissapointing to see some of the coments made. This tragedy could so easily have been avoided, but was bullsed up by ignorent policing, which resulted in 96 detahs. What was even more distatsteful was the lies spouted to try and cover up the misdeeds of the Plod on that day. I guess back in 1989 under, the despot Thatcher any football fan was brandished a thug, and she probably had favours to owe to the South Yorkshire police for helping her put all those miners on the dole.

Rant over, but I for one hope that finally the full truth comes out, and all those accountable are bought to justice.

I take on board that this thread should be dedicated to the poor souls who died on the tragic day at Hillsborough.

I,d also like to say thanks to posters of 57, 59 and 60 for their common sense replies and apologise for taking the thread title out of conext.

Sadly i got sucked in to a bit of verbal with a couple of posters, one in particular.

Mr Toad, many thanks also for your usual reply of reason and in particular rightly mentioning the dreaded Maggie Thatcher who was responsible for so much injustice during her years in office, especially the miners fight which was a very important issue and also personal to our area and myself, being an ex miner.

I do not in any way want to change the report, but expand on it, their being one issue i feel strongly about that needed further exposure to complete the findings, the comment of which I have closed via post 56, were I bit again, but remembered my promise to leave it alone and thus edited it,s contents.

I was still getting wound up by S.H. and bitting back, i would have liked to have done this long before but kept reacting as i,m sure he did to me.

Our local MP,s were made well aware of our feelings on this point and they in turn tried unsuccessfully to set up a further enquiry on the subject.

Anyone guilty of incompetence and negligence and failing to do their duty should be held accountable, with no exeption and no fobbing off as many know is the case with the policing authorities.

Justice for the 96 victims and their families is the ultimate aim and i genuinely hope they get closure from the reopening of the enquiry on the points mentioned in it and all they ask for is took into account.

As far opening a new thread on what i got sucked into by the mention of " The Sun " and the dreaded fences and why they were erected ect.ect.

I will not be doing so, out of respect for victims of this awful tragedy.

I also feel it is in no ones interest to start what would certainly have the potential of being a very bitter debate, which would in turn be very short lived be a swift closure.

I have thought long and hard as a result of the 3 posts i have mentioned and found myself going back to the horrific scenes that unfolded and the awful suffering of those who died on the day and their beloved parents and families left behind in their lifetime of unbearable grief.

I will never be able to forget the many scenes i have in my minds eye that have now resurfaced and never forget the most important issue, the loss of life and the families who will forever suffer from it all.

My priorities are now with them.

Thank you

S.Mick

[kopite]

As far opening a new thread on what i got sucked into by the mention of " The Sun " and the dreaded fences and why they were erected ect.ect.

so you think the fences were erected at hillsborough as a result of heysel do you? so there wasnt fences in the 1981 spurs - wolves semi then? heysel was 1985. so spurs fans didnt have a problem then on that day?

in 1981 Spurs played Wolves in an FA Cup Semi Final at Hillsborough, and Spurs fans, like Liverpool fans eight years later, were allocated the now notorious Leppings Lane end.

Spurs fans, like Liverpool fans that went after them, felt that the ends were badly allocated. Leppings Lane was perceived to be the smaller end and should thus have been given to the team with the smaller travelling support. But this was probably just perception, and switching ends would sadly just have switched the suffering from one bunch of fans to another.

Spurs fans were sent through the concourses that led to the various pens behind the goal. And those directly behind the goal were the most popular. So just as pens 3 and 4 filled to dangerous levels in 1989, the same part of the ground filled dangerously quickly in 1981.

People were crushed not because of surging support or bad behaviour, but simply because the spaces between the large metal fences were too small. Indeed there was a feeling even before then, without benefit of hindsight, that the supposed capacity of Leppings Lane was overstated and unsafe.

watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9--vyouphBw

hillsborough was a death trap, hence why the ground was banned from being a semi final venue for years (edit, after 1981), and why it never held the correct safety certificate, its why fans in 1981, 1988 had problems (crushing) and why 96 innnocent people lost their lives in 1989.

to be fair sheff mick, your uneducated about both disasters, you have your views and youve stuck to them. the information on both disasters is out there for all to find. the rest of the uk will know it soon.

JFT 96

[Devil]

As far opening a new thread on what i got sucked into by the mention of " The Sun " and the dreaded fences and why they were erected ect.ect.

so you think the fences were erected at hillsborough as a result of heysel do you? so there wasnt fences in the 1981 spurs - wolves semi then? heysel was 1985. so spurs fans didnt have a problem then on that day?

in 1981 Spurs played Wolves in an FA Cup Semi Final at Hillsborough, and Spurs fans, like Liverpool fans eight years later, were allocated the now notorious Leppings Lane end.

Spurs fans, like Liverpool fans that went after them, felt that the ends were badly allocated. Leppings Lane was perceived to be the smaller end and should thus have been given to the team with the smaller travelling support. But this was probably just perception, and switching ends would sadly just have switched the suffering from one bunch of fans to another.

Spurs fans were sent through the concourses that led to the various pens behind the goal. And those directly behind the goal were the most popular. So just as pens 3 and 4 filled to dangerous levels in 1989, the same part of the ground filled dangerously quickly in 1981.

People were crushed not because of surging support or bad behaviour, but simply because the spaces between the large metal fences were too small. Indeed there was a feeling even before then, without benefit of hindsight, that the supposed capacity of Leppings Lane was overstated and unsafe.

watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9--vyouphBw

hillsborough was a death trap, hence why the ground was banned from being a semi final venue for years (edit, after 1981), and why it never held the correct safety certificate, its why fans in 1981, 1988 had problems (crushing) and why 96 innnocent people lost their lives in 1989.

to be fair sheff mick, your uneducated about both disasters, you have your views and youve stuck to them. the information on both disasters is out there for all to find. the rest of the uk will know it soon.

JFT 96

Well said.

[sheff_mick]

As far opening a new thread on what i got sucked into by the mention of " The Sun " and the dreaded fences and why they were erected ect.ect.

so you think the fences were erected at hillsborough as a result of heysel do you? so there wasnt fences in the 1981 spurs - wolves semi then? heysel was 1985. so spurs fans didnt have a problem then on that day?

in 1981 Spurs played Wolves in an FA Cup Semi Final at Hillsborough, and Spurs fans, like Liverpool fans eight years later, were allocated the now notorious Leppings Lane end.

Spurs fans, like Liverpool fans that went after them, felt that the ends were badly allocated. Leppings Lane was perceived to be the smaller end and should thus have been given to the team with the smaller travelling support. But this was probably just perception, and switching ends would sadly just have switched the suffering from one bunch of fans to another.

Spurs fans were sent through the concourses that led to the various pens behind the goal. And those directly behind the goal were the most popular. So just as pens 3 and 4 filled to dangerous levels in 1989, the same part of the ground filled dangerously quickly in 1981.

People were crushed not because of surging support or bad behaviour, but simply because the spaces between the large metal fences were too small. Indeed there was a feeling even before then, without benefit of hindsight, that the supposed capacity of Leppings Lane was overstated and unsafe.

watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9--vyouphBw

hillsborough was a death trap, hence why the ground was banned from being a semi final venue for years (edit, after 1981), and why it never held the correct safety certificate, its why fans in 1981, 1988 had problems (crushing) and why 96 innnocent people lost their lives in 1989.

I have said it before and i will say it again........Why did the powers that be choose to ignore these important observations you highlight ?

There seems to be a lot of un accountability here that needs exposing.

The FA and the authorities who sanctioned this semi final instead of refusing permission to stage it, for starters.

Unruly thugs and no brainers ???? did IMHO have accountability as well, but for some reason it wasn,t forth coming.

to be fair sheff mick, your uneducated about both disasters, you have your views and youve stuck to them. the information on both disasters is out there for all to find. the rest of the uk will know it soon.

JFT 96

Hiya Kopite,

Seems i need to broaden my reference to the Heysel tragedy.

SWFC would have liked to get rid of the fences and there was serious discussion ongoing to do so before the Heysel Stadium incident.

After that, they sadly stayed in situ.

I never considered the Sun a newspaper and did not read what was said in it about the tragedy at Hillsboruogh, it just seemed to kick my objections to a certain area that i commented on, off again.

( I have not been tempted to, nor wanted to, research it either, by going back and trying to locate the publication )

There is plenty of blame and finger pointing to go around so many events leading up to the tragedy, during and after but sadly it will not bring the tragic loss of life back.

If only the idiots who pose as supporters around the world could be re educated and brought to task on their mindless, selfish behaviour that to this day has not ceased and sadly is still accepted and tolerated as a part of the beloved game.

The players have much to answer for in this area also, as they incite agressive displays and the repetative violence, week in and week out.

There is sadly i fear, another tragedy waitng to happen that could easily be avoided via re education and example, both on the field and off it.

P.S.

I purposely did not edit your post even though it has been repeated already, it is after all fair comment, we SWFC supporters, took it for granted that it had been addressed in some way, when obviously it was not.

No excuses and this should also highlight all the other clubs out there who fall well below the safety standards, ( still ) and welcome supporters into their stadiums while ignoring their obligations on this important issue.

[sheff_mick]

In reference to the addressing of the Leppings Lane safety after 1981, modifications took place and these must have been taken into account prior to awarding the semi final to SWFC.

With reference to the death trap observations, by Kopite

Prior to the tragedy they must have considered it safe before awarding the semi final, when sadly and tragically only after the event was it was proven otherwise, hindsight is certainly wise afterwards, sadly and unfortunately

Hillsborough was barred as a venue for major neutral matches and only allowed to do so again in 1987 after modifications were made to the pens. Those modifications were designed to make policing easier.

If i may be allowed to also mention the term Death Trap could easily be applied to many different sports stadia across the U.K., even now in 2009.

Again, sadly, hindsight is constructive only after something goes tragically wrong.

Two other tragedies that could have benefited from hindsight, where horrific, and like Hillsborough, I can still see with my minds eye, are Ibrox Glasgow in 1971 and Valley Parade Bradford in 1985.

I am not in any way being derogratory, just offering them as examples by the way of other preventable incidents, in hindsight, when applied.

So many incidents have happened over the years that should have served as an example and as warnings, but no, we carry on in the same negligent ways, safety wise ignorant and all that it encompasses

[MiG16]

Im starting this new thread

but let me remind everyone, no matter what your cause and your feelings and how sensitive you feel the topic is, you are still required to stay within forum rules

abusing each other is not allowed.

if you need time out to cool your heads, please do so.

have tried to move posts here, but also deleted some that I think are not necessary.

[kopite]

In reference to the addressing of the Leppings Lane safety after 1981, modifications took place and these must have been taken into account prior to awarding the semi final to SWFC.

With reference to the death trap observations, by Kopite

Prior to the tragedy they must have considered it safe before awarding the semi final, when sadly and tragically only after the event was it was proven otherwise, hindsight is certainly wise afterwards, sadly and unfortunately

Hillsborough was barred as a venue for major neutral matches and only allowed to do so again in 1987 after modifications were made to the pens. Those modifications were designed to make policing easier.

If i may be allowed to also mention the term Death Trap could easily be applied to many different sports stadia across the U.K., even now in 2009.

Again, sadly, hindsight is constructive only after something goes tragically wrong.

Two other tragedies that could have benefited from hindsight, where horrific, and like Hillsborough, I can still see with my minds eye, are Ibrox Glasgow in 1971 and Valley Parade Bradford in 1985.

I am not in any way being derogratory, just offering them as examples by the way of other preventable incidents, in hindsight, when applied.

So many incidents have happened over the years that should have served as an example and as warnings, but no, we carry on in the same negligent ways, safety wise ignorant and all that it encompasses

please read this mick http://downloads.hfdinfo.com/6HFDDutyOfCare.pdf

no one blames the people of sheffield, the south yorkshire police force and the FA were to blame, the ground was inadequate, as were many in those days. the leppings lane end was unsuitable (and still didnt hold the correct safety certificate, even after "improvements") to hold a huge game with huge numbers coming into it. your right, other grounds were just as bad.

but, the police force on that day were a f***ing disgrace. as i said, please read the PDF, as should others.