Immigration Crackdown On Border Runners

[MJo]

By the way you make a few good points, too, namely what you mentioned somewhere earlier "illegally working on the internet". Now for something to be "illegal" there has to be a "legal" alternative. You can't have one without the other. Now can YOU tell me how to LEGALLY work on the internet..??? If you tell me how to get a WP for working on the internet, heck i'll even pay you for it. Because for what i know, i can't have a one-man-company (only myself) and hence can't have an online-shop either. And it kind of defeats the purpose when you need to hire four Thais at 20,000 Baht per month to legally run a business that makes maybe 15,000 Baht a month. If you suggest something, please also show how it's done. Because i can "only suggest" too - how about migrating to Mars? I heard you can own land in your own name there and the immigration rules are VERY relaxed.

Having now talked to accountants without a vested interest in taking my money to setup a local company, it turns out that the opinion that telecommuting like this is illegal only exists on Internet forums.

If you explain your work situation to a vaguely helpful consulate, you will get a 1 year Type-O (Other) or maybe Type-B Visa. You cannot get a work permit as you are not employed by a Thai company, and not working here as as far as the definitions used by Dept. of Labor are concerned. You don't need to submit tax forms because you have no taxable income. Your just another long term tourist as far as the Thai government is concerned. As far as I can tell, it makes no difference if you declare yourself as a a tourist or on business or both on your arrival card, and nobody will blink an eye at your Thailand residential address.

Is building web pages, running web pages, writing software, selling stuff in internet, packaging and posting it to the customers from thailand just "telecommuting". I do not think so, it is running a business or providing consultancy and other services from Thailand. For this i believe you do need WP.

Then if you are talking only telecommuting meaning you are employed outside thailand and participate some meetings over internet or telephone while you are temporarily visiting thailand yes. That should be legit to do with business visa. Same as if you are sent here by your everseas employer on regular business trips to negotiate with clients, sell your products etc etc you propably qualify for non-B visa.

For Thanh, i do not set the rules, thai government does and they are quite clear. To operate above businesses legit you need to get company going on etc etc. If your business can not make enough money for it to be possible etc does not mean it becomes somehow legal. Take it what it is, just a business that can not sustain itself to the level to be legally set-up. I do not see anything out of ordinary in the fact that Thai government has set some rules for foreigners to operate here that are higher than for locals.

Now when the facts are emerging this thread has nothing to do with border runners anymore. It's all about people working illegally trying to justify it to the strangers or perhaps to themselfs. But think positive guys, at leas Thai government is still willing to issue you one year multiple business visas for working illegally. So it can't be that bad

[Maestro]

I see that there is nothing yet about this new restriction on visa-exempt entry on land borders on the website of the Immigration Bureau. Also the website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) does not mention it. In the past, such announcements were in the form of a Royal Thai Police Order, posted on the immigration website and also mentioned on the MFA site.

Web pages I checked:

www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php?page=act

www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/base.php?page=act

www.mfa.go.th/web/2482.php?id=2490

--

Maestro

[monekyface]

I am guessing that someone has been to the border in the last couple days. Nothing to report? I wonder is this was just a flash in the pan, or if it is an ominous sign of real changes coming. Like others have said, even if this four border runs is enforced it still leaves a lot of options for people who wish to stay here long-term.

[stub]

Having now talked to accountants without a vested interest in taking my money to setup a local company, it turns out that the opinion that telecommuting like this is illegal only exists on Internet forums.

If you explain your work situation to a vaguely helpful consulate, you will get a 1 year Type-O (Other) or maybe Type-B Visa. You cannot get a work permit as you are not employed by a Thai company, and not working here as as far as the definitions used by Dept. of Labor are concerned. You don't need to submit tax forms because you have no taxable income. Your just another long term tourist as far as the Thai government is concerned. As far as I can tell, it makes no difference if you declare yourself as a a tourist or on business or both on your arrival card, and nobody will blink an eye at your Thailand residential address.

Is building web pages, running web pages, writing software, selling stuff in internet, packaging and posting it to the customers from thailand just "telecommuting". I do not think so, it is running a business or providing consultancy and other services from Thailand. For this i believe you do need WP.

You are correct - that is not telecommuting. I was talking about telecommuting, quite a different subject to running a small export business. My apologies if I misinterpreted the original posters situation. I have no idea if the straw man you are setting up is legal or not. My guess would be illegal in your case since you are shipping physical product from Thailand and some entity needs to pay the sales tax.

[tropo]

A border run can costs about 2200 baht if you make the trip using a company. Plus other expenses.

A round trip ticket to KL purchased in advance costs about 2600 baht. That will give a 30 entry. It seems to me that a trip out and back that gives 30 days is a lot better than 2 border runs.

That's a pretty good idea.

I checked the prices of flights to KL for an advanced booking and got 2,163.00 THB for out and back. Add 300 baht for a round trip bus trip from Pattaya to BKK airport and back and it's better than doing 2 border runs...and you don't get 2 full page Cambodian visa stickers in your passport!

Do you think any immigration officers in Malaysia or Thailand would consider it suspicious to be arriving and leaving so quickly and interrogate the person?

[ubonjoe]

I think you might find that a lot of people are doing it. I don't think immigration would hardly notice. Whats the difference between this and crossing the border and back.

[buckeye]

Hi

Mae sot has started marking all 15 day visa's so it is happing. People are being told only 4 crossings;

[ubonjoe]

Thanks for the info.

That takes away any doubts about this new rule since we now have confirmation from another border.

The numbering of the entries also confirms that they are not making it retroactive.

[sabaaisabaaiinchiangmai]

hi everybody

just been reading the post on visa/boarder runs....intresting,and we all know he goverment change the lwa when ever they want....i have a non im b so iam ok,but i understand the other people that find it hard good luck to you all...and at the end of the day thailand is not the only nice country in the world.

i just wanted to reply to vahack he quotes.......anyone eles here under 50 is probabley causing problems or running from the law!!!......what the hel_l sort of comment is that?

all my western friends in thailand are under 50 actcully under 40 got good jobs,set up buisness here and the ones that are married to thai ladys have good jobs

[monekyface]

OK here is the real low-down. Remember that Monekyface told you FIRST.

I went to the border today (Ban Pakkard) and handed over the passport and asked "can I come back if I cross over???"

I was lucky enough to get a very talkative immigration official. First, there was this shocked look on his face. I said "Only four crossings, is that right?"

He asked me "Who told you that???!!!???" his face still registering utter shock. I said I found it online at Thaivisa.com. He wrote down the website! I didn't know this was a covert operation here.

Then he tells me "Yes, it is true. There is a limit. But you are allowed four, and on the fifth one you will be allowed to leave as well as come back, but I will be required to create a report in the computer and immigration will follow up by checking out the address where you live to see if you are working and should have a work permit."

How is that for information? I also verified that if you fly out of the country and fly back, you will start over with a "1" on your next border crossing. And what about tourist visas? Yes, I asked about that as well. He said that after your tourist visa is finished you will start over with a "1" again.

In the end, if this is how all of the border officials interpret the law, then it really makes very, very little difference to anyone. I don't see how anyone will generate one of those "fifth entry" reports unless they are very arrogant or very ignorant. Also, remember that the only address they have to check out is one that you write on the entry card. Incidentally, when I wrote the city down where I stay that was always good enough in the past. This time, they made me write down the actual location.

This is a non-issue IMHO.

Edited June 8, 2009 by monekyface

[ubonjoe]

OK here is the real low-down. Remember that Monekyface told you FIRST.

I went to the border today (Ban Pakkard) and handed over the passport and asked "can I come back if I cross over???"

I was lucky enough to get a very talkative immigration official. First, there was this shocked look on his face. I said "Only four crossings, is that right?"

He asked me "Who told you that???!!!???" his face still registering utter shock. I said I found it online at Thaivisa.com. He wrote down the website! I didn't know this was a covert operation here.

Then he tells me "Yes, it is true. There is a limit. But you are allowed four, and on the fifth one you will be allowed to leave as well as come back, but I will be required to create a report in the computer and immigration will follow up by checking out the address where you live to see if you are working and should have a work permit."

How is that for information? I also verified that if you fly out of the country and fly back, you will start over with a "1" on your next border crossing. And what about tourist visas? Yes, I asked about that as well. He said that after your tourist visa is finished you will start over with a "1" again.

In the end, if this is how all of the border officials interpret the law, then it really makes very, very little difference to anyone. I don't see how anyone will generate one of those "fifth entry" reports unless they are very arrogant or very ignorant. Also, remember that the only address they have to check out is one that you write on the entry card. Incidentally, when I wrote the city down where I stay that was always good enough in the past. This time, they made me write down the actual location.

This is a non-issue IMHO.

Not covert just good reports like yours from members.

Interesting about the 5th entry. That sort of confirms what I have said a few times in that they are trying to stop those working illegally. You can be sure if they tried to check somebody out and they could not find them there would be some type of red flag in immigrations computer system the next time they left or entered the country.

It makes sense and is what I would expect that getting a visa would also reset the count.

There still is nothing on the immigrations website about this.

Thanks for the report.

[Maestro]

...

I went to the border today (Ban Pakkard) and handed over the passport and asked "can I come back if I cross over???"

I was lucky enough to get a very talkative immigration official. First, there was this shocked look on his face. I said "Only four crossings, is that right?"

He asked me "Who told you that???!!!???" his face still registering utter shock. I said I found it online at Thaivisa.com. He wrote down the website! I didn't know this was a covert operation here.

Then he tells me "Yes, it is true. There is a limit. But you are allowed four, and on the fifth one you will be allowed to leave as well as come back, but I will be required to create a report in the computer and immigration will follow up by checking out the address where you live to see if you are working and should have a work permit."...

After reading what this chatty immigration officer told you I am inclined to believe that immigration did indeed intend this to be a covert operation to flush out foreigners who might be working in Thailand without a work permit.

It also shows that the concern I voiced in earlier posts about this new policy being implemented without prior notice and without official announcement was unwarranted, as this policy will not leave an unsuspecting tourist stranded outside Thailand.

I now also understand why there was not a new Police Order for this, as it is not a general restriction on the number of visa-exempt entries but intended as a tool to profile border runners and decide who may need closer investigation.

Quite clever, really.

--

Maestro

[nick123]

Back from Mae Sai. When asking the official who stamped me out about the four stamp thing, he seems a bit baffled. He asked a superior, who told me: No problem here.

See what will happen...

[phuketrichard]

hi everybody

just been reading the post on visa/boarder runs....intresting,and we all know he goverment change the lwa when ever they want....i have a non im b so iam ok,but i understand the other people that find it hard good luck to you all...and at the end of the day thailand is not the only nice country in the world.

i just wanted to reply to vahack he quotes.......anyone eles here under 50 is probabley causing problems or running from the law!!!......what the hel_l sort of comment is that?

all my western friends in thailand are under 50 actcully under 40 got good jobs,set up buisness here and the ones that are married to thai ladys have good jobs

If that is true. then if they are working they should have a work permit or if their married they would be able to apply for the marriage extension

so NONE of ur frienns are relative to these new requirements>>

[loong]

hi everybody

just been reading the post on visa/boarder runs....intresting,and we all know he goverment change the lwa when ever they want....i have a non im b so iam ok,but i understand the other people that find it hard good luck to you all...and at the end of the day thailand is not the only nice country in the world.

i just wanted to reply to vahack he quotes.......anyone eles here under 50 is probabley causing problems or running from the law!!!......what the hel_l sort of comment is that?

all my western friends in thailand are under 50 actcully under 40 got good jobs,set up buisness here and the ones that are married to thai ladys have good jobs

If that is true. then if they are working they should have a work permit or if their married they would be able to apply for the marriage extension

so NONE of ur frienns are relative to these new requirements>>

I think that he was referring to the ridiculous comments of some posters that foreigners who do not meet the requirements to get a 1 year extension are all criminals or lowlifes.

It's the typical reaction of some people "F*** you Jack, I'm alright"

[tropo]

This new policy (haven't seen an actual immigration rule in writing yet so I can only call it a policy) will mainly affect Filipinos and even then, only a few.

Very few Farang (from Pattaya or Bangkok) will be paying 2000 plus baht and wasting a day to get 14 days on a continuous basis. Filipinos can still do a visa run for 500 - 600 baht as they don't need a Cambodian visa, therefore it's more common for them to do this type of visa run on a regular basis.

How long will they continue with this lame-duck policy?

[fabianfred]

...

I went to the border today (Ban Pakkard) and handed over the passport and asked "can I come back if I cross over???"

I was lucky enough to get a very talkative immigration official. First, there was this shocked look on his face. I said "Only four crossings, is that right?"

He asked me "Who told you that???!!!???" his face still registering utter shock. I said I found it online at Thaivisa.com. He wrote down the website! I didn't know this was a covert operation here.

Then he tells me "Yes, it is true. There is a limit. But you are allowed four, and on the fifth one you will be allowed to leave as well as come back, but I will be required to create a report in the computer and immigration will follow up by checking out the address where you live to see if you are working and should have a work permit."...

After reading what this chatty immigration officer told you I am inclined to believe that immigration did indeed intend this to be a covert operation to flush out foreigners who might be working in Thailand without a work permit.

It also shows that the concern I voiced in earlier posts about this new policy being implemented without prior notice and without official announcement was unwarranted, as this policy will not leave an unsuspecting tourist stranded outside Thailand.

I now also understand why there was not a new Police Order for this, as it is not a general restriction on the number of visa-exempt entries but intended as a tool to profile border runners and decide who may need closer investigation.

Quite clever, really.

--

Maestro

now I understand why my friend who has been living here with Non "O" visas plus border runs told me of his conversation with an officer at MaeSai immigration last week. He was told that merely having an old (expired) Non-Immigrant visa in his passport meant that he could do unlimited border runs.....

[lopburi3]

You can not do border runs on an expired visa. To use a visa it has to be multi entry and valid. You can do border runs for visa exempt entry - but that does not require you ever had any type of visa.

Now perhaps you are saying the fact he once had a visa means he will be exempt for any 4 entry rule? I suspect any such presumption is premature. The fact he once had a visa surly would not mean he is not now working illegally (which seems to be what it is all about)

[fabianfred]

he has never worked..only living to support his wife and children...on a foreign pension.

The officer told him he had unlimited 15 day trips because of the previous Non Immigrant visa in his passport...he is Swiss.

[Edgard]

We are all from this planet, and requesting a visa from you if you wanna go somewhere on this planet, just because you happen to be born somewhere else on this planet, is a retarded and wrong concept, simply utter nonsense. It should be abolished, like slavery was.

Yes I totally agree!! If everybody could think like you the world should more beautiful!

Simply Thanks!

[chiang mai]

We are all from this planet, and requesting a visa from you if you wanna go somewhere on this planet, just because you happen to be born somewhere else on this planet, is a retarded and wrong concept, simply utter nonsense. It should be abolished, like slavery was.

Yes I totally agree!! If everybody could think like you the world should more beautiful!

Simply Thanks!

Funny too much! Try telling that story line to the good residents of London, Boston, Munich, Melbourne, Paris and wherever when their fair cities are over run by impoverished and destitute Issan farmers, Cambodian paddy workers, Laos laborers, Philippine taxi drivers etc, and so on.

[koekenbakkerr]

We are all from this planet, and requesting a visa from you if you wanna go somewhere on this planet, just because you happen to be born somewhere else on this planet, is a retarded and wrong concept, simply utter nonsense. It should be abolished, like slavery was.

Yes I totally agree!! If everybody could think like you the world should more beautiful!

Simply Thanks!

Well for us Thailand lovers, the world would be a lot more beautifull. But imagine living in Europe and not having to get visa's to stay in our country it would be full as hel_l by people trying to make a living here.

[thedi]

We are all from this planet, and requesting a visa from you if you wanna go somewhere on this planet, just because you happen to be born somewhere else on this planet, is a retarded and wrong concept, simply utter nonsense. It should be abolished, like slavery was.

Yes lord ... and noboby shall be forced to identify himself with any papers - nor shall there be persons wearing a uniform - with the possible exception of gogo girls...

Amen

[rilly]

It is silly to alter the laws 3,4,5 times a year regarding free entry visas if the intention is to prevent illegal farangs from working.

All the people i knew 5 years ago that were working illegally, are still working illegally, then just take minibuses to Malaysia at different intervals.

AND, these farangs are only working jobs the nationals wouldn't want anyway, even if they were qualified and they are not (Diving / Teaching jobs)

[loong]

It is silly to alter the laws 3,4,5 times a year regarding free entry visas if the intention is to prevent illegal farangs from working.

All the people i knew 5 years ago that were working illegally, are still working illegally, then just take minibuses to Malaysia at different intervals.

AND, these farangs are only working jobs the nationals wouldn't want anyway, even if they were qualified and they are not (Diving / Teaching jobs)

I really don't see that these restrictions have anything to do with farang working illegally. What checks are done when a farang applies for a tourist visa outside of Thailand? If the Thai Embassy in Laos handles 500 Visa applications per day, there are obviously no checks except maybe to see if that person is flagged in a computer database.

If there are farangs working here illegally, it musts be a very tiny amount. I know things are bad in the west, but I don't envisage hoards of farang coming here to steal jobs from Thais at 200 Baht per day.

There are regular reports of Laos, Burmese and Cambodians caught working illegally in Thailand, but I'm not sure what restrictions (if any) are in place to deal with this problem.

[torrenova]

Once again a stupid ill thought out knee jerk action by someone with his head in the trough and no-one in the head in the trough waiting list is willing to risk their turn to tell the boss that his idea is just stupid. Or, if we don't believe that, we must assume that they are all just plain stupid.

The solution is rather simple. Give people from good countries 90 days as most countries do. Make any extension based upon income or capital for the following 3 months and stamp them in for 90 more days.

For workers, make it easy for people to own businesses and work without the current expense (relative) for all the bloody permits and accountancy regulations. Remember, I can run a UK company for £20 a year including all accounting and filing fees. Through that it makes employing westerners easy and if they were to pay a small amount of tax which worked out at less than their visa runs, then everyone is ahead.

Of course, you'd have to drag an awful lot of people from the trough and then go looking for some intelligent ones. Non corrupt intelligent government people ? I wouldn't be holding my breath.

[dbrenn]

Once again a stupid ill thought out knee jerk action by someone with his head in the trough

we must assume that they are all just plain stupid.

Remember, I can run a UK company for £20 a year including all accounting and filing fees.

Of course, you'd have to drag an awful lot of people from the trough and then go looking for some intelligent ones. Non corrupt intelligent government people ? I wouldn't be holding my breath.

But you aren't in the UK, in case you hadn't noticed. You are not entitled to the right live in Thailand - you have to qualify for it.

No need to throw blanket insults on Thailand and its people just because you find the regulations onerous. If you hate the place that much, go back home.

[jellymeister]

We are all from this planet, and requesting a visa from you if you wanna go somewhere on this planet, just because you happen to be born somewhere else on this planet, is a retarded and wrong concept, simply utter nonsense. It should be abolished, like slavery was.

Yes I totally agree!! If everybody could think like you the world should more beautiful!

Simply Thanks!

Funny too much! Try telling that story line to the good residents of London, Boston, Munich, Melbourne, Paris and wherever when their fair cities are over run by impoverished and destitute Issan farmers, Cambodian paddy workers, Laos laborers, Philippine taxi drivers etc, and so on.

Idealistic views aside, in fact it is the western countires who started the most restrictive policies so as not to be overrun by imports from developing countries...imagine a billion people arriving on your doorstep and demanding free healthcare, education, citizenship etc! the result would be massive unemployment, a collapse of social institutions and anarchy...

[jellymeister]

actually it goes back alot further than that to the 19th century when chinese and japanese immigrants to the US to work on railroads caused the whole "yellow peril" panic in the US resulting in stricter laws....

Edited June 27, 2009 by jellymeister

[Rainmon]

stop the need for border runs for any visa need, stop 90 day reporting, and implement a simple pay to stay system (similar to the Philippines or Cambodia).

i am really tired of the 90 day reporting, i feel like a criminal on probation and have to check in every 3 months to make sure i am still under their control, for retires or one year visa people, check in once a yr should suffice.

also I have found that inexperienced Thai business people think it is ok to go back on their word and act like it was a mis communication, not sure how much longer i like this place...