Immigration Crackdown On Border Runners

[Jingthing]

...and would be more than replaced with increased foreign investment if Thailand wasn't viewed as the knock shop of Asia....

Easy to change that. Just start ARRESTING foreign punters and closing go go venues PERMANENTLY. It will be the photo shot heard round the world, and the next day you can watch the airlines cancel more flights here.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Jingthing

[kiwijor]

Luck im a 3 year overstayer

Hi BKKRICK, Great going.

Anybody know!

Whats the record? my longest was 10 years.

Kiwijor

[Oberkommando]

One of the major reasons foreigners choose not to settle in Cambodia & the Philippines and instead choose Thailand is that those countries are not as modern as Thailand.

That's true, but Cambo has its charms.

Cambodia & the Philippines are much more dangerous. Crime is rampant.

Cambodia isn't much more dangerous than Thailand if you use common sense. Can't vouch for the Philippines. Of course the spate of unsolved tourist deaths, murders and suicides all point to Thailand being dangerous enough.

For those who say that the government of Thailand is unstable, it is very stable compared to the government of Cambodia.

Nonsense. Hun Sen has been in power for a while now, and Thailand has had how many coups in the last 65 years? What is it 16, 17 coups now? I've lost count.

The military keeps the governments of Cambodia & the Philippines in power even more than is the case in Thailand.

Rubbish, the Cambodian government was elected.

Thailand is much mored sanitary than are Cambodia & the Philippines. The food is safer in Thailand. Certainly Thailand is much farther from being a Third World country than are Burma, Laos, Cambodia & the Philippines.

The food in Cambodia is perfectly sanitary, and there are some fantastic restaurants in Phnom Penh.

If Third World is a mentality, Thailand isn't far away at all my friend.

You've obviously never been to, nor have any knowledge at all about Cambodia.

[DMasut]

A poor country needs all the jobs it can get, expats, tourists, foreign investment all create jobs. Why discourage ANY of those?

I just spent 5-6 million Baht building a house in Chiang Rai and paying the employees way above

most do, gave them Mayday, laborday off with pay. You know what my thanks is?

Clipping me 150Baht when I use my ATM card from the USA. Well will live of my money in local banks

included the 400,000 I kept. Will go every year from now on to my embassy

spend the $30 and give it to them. Amazing Thailand. Let be honest the Government is a joke here.

Basically a MAJOR LACK of understanding in how MACRO ECONOMICS, CASH FLOW and ROI (Return of Investment) works.

Because they live in a country with many natural food resources and beauty, they have never had real struggle like India, Somalia, etc. When have Thai people ever starved?

They live for today, and when things don't go their way, they change the rules... and so far they have had little or no negative repercussions for them.

They do not understand the bigger picture of sowing and reaping.

Funny though...take a clever bargirl and she will act prim and proper, act like a victim of circumstance, some will even not take your money...because "they like you"...why? A basic understanding of MACRO Economics (in there case a bit of a con as well) knowing that in order to have the best chance of benefiting greater from the larger picture, they must give up some short term gains and control.

Unfortunately, many farang don't understand this and wind up losing everything they own in the process...house in their 'wife's name', cars, money, dignity.... Even after being married for 2, 5, or more years only to find out later the girl's plan was from the very beginning to get as much money as she could...i.e. "The highest return on her investment"..of in most cases little more than her time and tolerance of someone she didn't really love.

The main religion of Thailand (I can't directly mention it without having this post deleted) teaches acceptance and tolerance.

Their understanding of it creates a mindset that if they wait long enough a farang will give them all they wish for.

Sadly, there is not shortage of "love starved" Western men beat up by their western counterparts that enter Thailand seeking "true love" and confuse the warm contact and affection of Thai people as a true love. Spending little or not time to learn Thai culture...and in some cases "demanding" the Thais to learn their culture... only to wake up when it is too late in realizing that their actions were naive and arrogant.

It is their country to do as they please. Our efforts to change it have failed thus far.

It would seem that only when they come to realize the best course is to create a bi-lateral relationship with non-Thais living, working and investing in their country is in their best interest will they chose to change.

This won't happen when there are scores of people queuing up to replace you thinking they are getting a great deal, only to be in your situation later. NEWBIES

Only when tourists stop flocking, business investment not only stops but existing investment withdraws and those working in Thailand offering special skills required to help Thailand compete in the Global Economy will they be forced to deal with it.

Until then the biggest challenge they face is what color shirt they should wear and protest with... not truly understanding TRUE politics behind them.

[thaibeachlovers]

yes, way too many farangs on this thread thinking 'if it wasn't for me and my pension, the Thai economy would fall in a heap'.

No but several local wage Thai JOBS for each and every retired expat is not chopped liver.

...and would be more than replaced with increased foreign investment if Thailand wasn't viewed as the knock shop of Asia....

this won't change that impression, but it is a first step....

What an absurd thing to claim.

How on Earth is capping border visa runs a first step to changing Thailand's reputation or the way this country is viewed abroad?

Again, whiners using visa rules as a red-herring for their own deficiencies.

The same goes for people using a discussion on these rules to denigrate other expats and their contribution to Thailand.

Well said.

I can't be the only reader who is sick of the "dog in the manger, I'm all right Jack's" who rabbit on about how if they can afford a visa everyone else should be able to, and the only people who want to use the border runs are criminals and scum.

There are enough threads on TV about how there are hardly any tourists now to prove that there is a serious problem for thousands of locals who used to make a decent living from western tourists, and it would seem to be a rather strange time to be making it more difficult for western tourists to visit. Bordering countries with more liberal arrangements must be loving the way Thailand is continually shooting itself in the foot.

As for the more liberal arrangements for the Chinese, anyone who thinks hordes of Chinese are going to compensate for the absent western tourists is dreaming.

[CRUNCHER]

yes, way too many farangs on this thread thinking 'if it wasn't for me and my pension, the Thai economy would fall in a heap'.

No but several local wage Thai JOBS for each and every retired expat is not chopped liver.

...and would be more than replaced with increased foreign investment if Thailand wasn't viewed as the knock shop of Asia....

this won't change that impression, but it is a first step....

What an absurd thing to claim.

How on Earth is capping border visa runs a first step to changing Thailand's reputation or the way this country is viewed abroad?

Again, whiners using visa rules as a red-herring for their own deficiencies.

The same goes for people using a discussion on these rules to denigrate other expats and their contribution to Thailand.

Well said.

I can't be the only reader who is sick of the "dog in the manger, I'm all right Jack's" who rabbit on about how if they can afford a visa everyone else should be able to, and the only people who want to use the border runs are criminals and scum.

There are enough threads on TV about how there are hardly any tourists now to prove that there is a serious problem for thousands of locals who used to make a decent living from western tourists, and it would seem to be a rather strange time to be making it more difficult for western tourists to visit. Bordering countries with more liberal arrangements must be loving the way Thailand is continually shooting itself in the foot.

As for the more liberal arrangements for the Chinese, anyone who thinks hordes of Chinese are going to compensate for the absent western tourists is dreaming.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/tourismreview2007/10.html

This link is a bit dated, but you can see that Asia/Pacific provides the bulk of Thailand's tourists. This is likely to continue. Apart from anything else it is cheaper for them to get here. Because of the way tours from some of these countries are structured their presence is not so obvious, but they keep coming.

China has a large and ever growing middle class who love to travel and Thailand has always been a popular destination. These people do not care about visa runs. Any visas required are organized by tour operators.

Military coups and street demonstrations are far more of a deterant than visa changes that affect a few westerners. It is not a dream.

Edited June 1, 2009 by CRUNCHER

[markokang]

Not many people have talked about it but... what is the Thai governments beef with people staying in Thailand for a long holiday anyway????

Seems to me if they gave everyone a 90 day visa on arrival, it could cover alot of bases and save immigration alot of hassle.

If 90 days is now their maximum stay for tourists then just dont allow any extensions. Whats the point of the 15+15+15+15 days inconveniencing everyone (including immigration)!?

I know many scandanavians have VERY long holiadys, during their winter time, whats wrong with letting paying tourists stay for more than 90 days?

People talk about the Khao San backpackers like they are lepers! (I honestly hate going to Khao San because its not my cup of tea so... I go elsewhere! Each to their own!) They are paying and enjoying Thailand, albiet chepaly, but then again, so what? Its still income for the country. There are many different kinds of people here for many different reasons. Just make the law simple, generous (Thailand survives on Toursim!) and uniform! 555 (easier said and done with corruption and incompetency the way it is)..

I have thought long and hard about it and I can't really understand their reasoning in wanting to keep foreigners out. Everyday a foreigner is here they are paying and creating a source of income for the country. It seems like nowadays its more of a "witch hunt" to keep foreigners out of the country... I really don't understand it.

All they need to do is make a very simple law for travelers: 90 days on arrival, with an option for renewal at a "real" embassy overseas. If people have money to do this then all good, more money for Thailand.

Really, what is the problem!????? Is it really Xenophobia!???

PS: I'm not a backpacker, been in Thailand for 9 years on a working visa.

[chipperman]

I have a question,

I have for some years got a Non Tourist visa multi entry but as always have to go to the border

after each 90days each time but it's a pain wasting a day and the minibus trip to the Cambodia

border along those not too good roads. I have a property near pattaya with a company that .

I am now married to my Thai lady since 07 and my question is would it be better to get

my visa as spouse of a Thai, I understand I don't have to go to the border each 90 days

I have my lady spends her time with me here outside Thailand and have our marrrige Cert

that I need for my visa later this year. Would this be better than the annual Non Tourist visa

that I have been getting. Chipperman

[Jungian]

This should cut down on the illegal work being done, driving the labor prices down which was one of the original ideas years ago. Funny Americans complain about the Mexicans but it seems we are the Mexicans in other countries, instead of running across the border and meeting a "coyote" hopping in his van to get smuggled the rest of the way, here people hop in a red truck run to the border every two weeks get a stamp and and run back into the country. If these people can't get a proper visa there is a darn good reason for it. Currently one of my friends from Mexico is here on sabbatical, he had no problem getting a one year visa and I have another friend here from the Philippines and she had no problem getting a one year visa, why people from developed Western nations have a problem... go figure, they must be doing something not quite legal.

[selftaopath]

THis is NOT good policy not good organisation, not though out planning, its just plain tinkering and it is totally worthless. the ill-considered decisions seem to be based more on prejudice than anything else - who exactly are they trying to get at - are border-runners - whoever they are, such a problem??

from a practical point of view this may well screw up some plans of genuine tourists who want to pop in and out of Thailand over a period visiting the neighbouring countries.

If you think about it, it might even "force" some people NOT to leave for Ankhor Wat etc. as they don't want the hasssle of being denied re-entry - once you've got here, they don't want you spending your cash in neighbouring country.

at the end of theday it sends the wrong signals internationally, whether to tourists, those wanting to stay long term and those wanting to invest.

Ten there's the 150 baht ATM fees, changes in bar closing, strange anti free-speech laws...the list just gets bigger and bigger, and to what avail????

how long will it be before they start tinkering withother long-term stayers.... visas - oh wait - they have haven't they!

From thailand you can enter Malaysia, Myanmar, Laos and Cambodia via land border crossings. So they have think this out, you can still fly to Thailand, visit all neighbouring countries including Angkor Wat and fly out from Thailand.

How many tourists "invest" here. Let's call it what it is. They want people to stop abusing their system and get proper tourist visas if they wish to stay longer. Nothing wrong with that and highly unlikely there is a UN resolution condemning their actions on this.

One thing seems certain. The Thai airlines will benefit - not that this decision is to give "financial aid" to yet another "connected" population. Oh and isn't there a tax at the airport when flying "international" flights LOL to Cambodia etc?

I think in light of the dismal tourist situation this may not enhance the call for increasing the amount of money spending foreigners. ???????? Hard to figure.

[djvolak]

it is not good what the immigration and the country is doing to the foreigners.

first they make all the tourist visas free and now they are making border runs short to stay.

as to before they were 3 months and now they only give two months.

what will happen next???

The visas are not free. I paid the full amount when I got my O visa in New Orleans this year Feb. It may have even been a few dollars more this year than last. They aid they had not been told anything about any free or reduced visa fees.

[Lite Beer]

The visas are not free.

Tourist Visas are free until June 4th.

[mahjongguy]

I know of no other country in the world where you can run to the border and get another stamp therefore allowing you to stay in the country practically indefinitely.

How about Singapore? All you have to do is drive across the bridge, turn around, and drive back across to get another 90 days.

[Pierrot]

As for the more liberal arrangements for the Chinese, anyone who thinks hordes of Chinese are going to compensate for the absent western tourists is dreaming.

They have done that for the past few hundreds years, you obviously don't know Thai history. Between two bars, take a break in a museum .

The old guard is back to power, and how do you expect them to work ? The old way of course !

And while packaged tour from China will not make it for high end tourist attractions, I doubt those high end tourists are much affected by the new visa run rules.

On the other end, IMO the 120 days visa for Chineses are not intented for Chinese tourists, but for workers for the factories China has promised to build during dear Abhi last visit.

[auserb]

what will happen on arrival to the airport if I intend to stay for a month in Thailand?

Will I have to pay for a tourist visa for that mont?

[mickba]

Just thinking how border runs work.

We pay the bus company about B2500, of which we're told B1200 is for the Cambodian Visa. Presumably the company pays the correct fee of $20 and makes a bit more there but nevermind.

Then we all parade through the Thailand Immigration, go get our paid for Cambodian Visa and then parade back through Thailand Immigration.

So, unless I'm missing something (and ignoring the profits made by the bus companies) the Thais don't get anything for all this hassle. So why should they want to do it? They just want people to get a proper visa after they've used up their exemption period plus the extensions.

Like many other posters I can't see what the fuss is about.

I haven't been on any border runs since it reduced to 15 days, but isn't the regular Cambodian Visa (not the E-visa) one month multi-entry? If so, then presumably the bus companies only charge half price for your second 15 day run as you already have your visa?

[ubonjoe]

I have a question,

I have for some years got a Non Tourist visa multi entry but as always have to go to the border

after each 90days each time but it's a pain wasting a day and the minibus trip to the Cambodia

border along those not too good roads. I have a property near pattaya with a company that .

I am now married to my Thai lady since 07 and my question is would it be better to get

my visa as spouse of a Thai, I understand I don't have to go to the border each 90 days

I have my lady spends her time with me here outside Thailand and have our marrrige Cert

that I need for my visa later this year. Would this be better than the annual Non Tourist visa

that I have been getting. Chipperman

I assume you have been getting multiple entry non immigrant visas of some type.

If you are married to a Thai you can get a 1 year extension of stay at immigration.

You will need to show an income of 40,000 or have 400,000 baht in a Thai bank account in your name only for 2 months.

[Gary A]

Due to my US company closing the factory that I worked in for 22 years, I accepted a job in Thailand. That was in 1991. I worked here until the economy crashed in 1997. I had enough money saved to stay but decided that my luck and savings would eventually run out. I returned to the US and worked an additional 5 years at well paying jobs in order to top up my social security and my savings in addition to contributing the maximum into my 401K pension plan.

I have told this little story because it appears that many people staying here in Thailand have given VERY little thought to their futures. People who have very little money and are living hand to mouth are crying about visa problems. The question is what are you going to do when you are getting old and can no longer work for peanuts, scam, steal or beg enough money to survive? Is it possible that the Thai government has considered this and is trying to get rid of people who will become a liability?

Things have changed very little for retirees who HAVE planned for their futures. I worked very hard for what little I have and am quite comfortable. I intend to live the rest of my life here in Thailand in relative comfort because I knew that someday I would get old and would need to depend on my pensions to survive. Young people here need to think about this.

[boggzzy]

On reading the topic headline my fist thought was that this was a very OLD topic that had somehow got re-emailed.

first they get rid of 30 days unlimited then 30 day border crossings but re-allow unlimited crossings and now re-introduce a limit.

THis is NOT good policy not good organisation, not though out planning, its just plain tinkering and it is totally worthless. the ill-considered decisions seem to be based more on prejudice than anything else - who exactly are they trying to get at - are border-runners - whoever they are, such a problem??

from a practical point of view this may well screw up some plans of genuine tourists who want to pop in and out of Thailand over a period visiting the neighbouring countries.

If you think about it, it might even "force" some people NOT to leave for Ankhor Wat etc. as they don't want the hasssle of being denied re-entry - once you've got here, they don't want you spending your cash in neighbouring country.

at the end of theday it sends the wrong signals internationally, whether to tourists, those wanting to stay long term and those wanting to invest.

Ten there's the 150 baht ATM fees, changes in bar closing, strange anti free-speech laws...the list just gets bigger and bigger, and to what avail????

how long will it be before they start tinkering withother long-term stayers.... visas - oh wait - they have haven't they!

dont you all get it the airlines need the money

[patklang]

Well, reasonable request. For long term stay. Get a visa.

I also understand how much of a additional work load it is in these crossings to stamp bus after bus people out and in again every two weeks.

Does immigration actually read thaivisa and notify rule changes or you have dig this out from them George ?

Very reasonable request.I think some foreigners are scared to give too much details for a visa.If this stops one more scammer,robber,druggie then it will be a good thing.

[dutch]

Due to my US company closing the factory that I worked in for 22 years, I accepted a job in Thailand. That was in 1991. I worked here until the economy crashed in 1997. I had enough money saved to stay but decided that my luck and savings would eventually run out. I returned to the US and worked an additional 5 years at well paying jobs in order to top up my social security and my savings in addition to contributing the maximum into my 401K pension plan.

I have told this little story because it appears that many people staying here in Thailand have given VERY little thought to their futures. People who have very little money and are living hand to mouth are crying about visa problems. The question is what are you going to do when you are getting old and can no longer work for peanuts, scam, steal or beg enough money to survive? Is it possible that the Thai government has considered this and is trying to get rid of people who will become a liability?

Things have changed very little for retirees who HAVE planned for their futures. I worked very hard for what little I have and am quite comfortable. I intend to live the rest of my life here in Thailand in relative comfort because I knew that someday I would get old and would need to depend on my pensions to survive. Young people here need to think about this.

Very well written.

Couldn't agree more

[fiddlehead]

It's getting more obvious with every newly passed visa/immigration law: The Thai government simply doesn't want farangs living here.

They continue to make it tougher and tougher for us to stay.

I would love to sit in on their think-tank meetings and see what are some of the options discussed.

[george]

Does immigration actually read thaivisa and notify rule changes or you have dig this out from them George ?

Yes, several immigration officers read this forum. Both at regional immigration offices, but also at Immigration HQ in Bangkok. A few high ranking officials are members.

Law firms like Sunbelt Asia and Isaan Lawyers and others are communicating with us. Mostly we have to dig it out from Immigration, and sometimes visa run companies and members email us of changes.

[beechguy]

It's getting more obvious with every newly passed visa/immigration law: The Thai government simply doesn't want farangs living here.

They continue to make it tougher and tougher for us to stay.

I would love to sit in on their think-tank meetings and see what are some of the options discussed.

How does this make it any tougher to stay?

[phutoie2]

BREAKING NEWS:

Immigration crackdown on border runners

Immigration Bureau has confirmed and informed thaivisa.com of the following new regulation:

I find this sentence interesting, how long has Immigration Police been informing Thai Visa?, or has it being doing so for some time now.

In the past we have had to rely on input from TV members usually after visits to Immigration Offices/Borders/Thai consulates/man on a bar stool (joking!) etc.

Any changes of Immigration rules in the future and TV being notified sounds like the way forward.

PS : Doh I have just read Post No 233. Thanks

Edited June 2, 2009 by phutoie2

[vahack]

for my part, i know no developed country that is asking so much from people, staying here for a long time, legally, with so much paperwork (90 day report, yearly extention, ...) for a max. of 1 year permission of stay, even being married to one of the locals here and making different rules (thai man marry farang = only needs 10k baht proven income, farang marrying thai = needs to prove 4x more salary, ... no right to buy a house/land, ...) and for nothing in return.... no social security, unemployment money and on top.. .if you work and the nice thai company fires you, you have to leave within 7 days, when ur wife dies and she owns, off course, the house you paid for, you better make sure to sell it because you are not allowed to own it or live in it....

ya this is pretty much what has me hesitating to build a house in Thailand. i've had the cash ready - 5mil baht - for over a year but i think its safer to invest/build in the US.

now i cant even give the money to my wife to buy land and build a house. she has to earn it herself. maybe next year they'll kick us ALL out and keep our money?

my sensors detect no signs of intelligent life..

[vahack]

Thiks like they dont want us any more !

They dont need our $$ ars !

They have sized mld from Thaksin,

its enough for the moment 1

After next election again !

farang

can someone please translate this for me?

Will give it a try:

Thiks (Thicko’s or thickhead’s) like they dont want us any more ! (they still want me )

They dont need our $$ ars ! (but they don’t want my 2 dollar a*s)

They have sized mld from Thaksin, (they have size medium, large or damn big - meaning Thaky tore them a new a*s /screwed them over)

its enough for the moment 1 (at present his a*s can only accommodate 1)

After next election again ! (typo: just you wait until my next erection)

farang (original name)

thats funny

[Thaddeus]

Yes, several immigration officers read this forum. Both at regional immigration offices, but also at Immigration HQ in Bangkok. A few high ranking officials are members.

In that case, it would be 'nice' if one of them would actually explain why these changes are made at the drop of a hat, and exactly what they are hoping to achieve by them.

But of course we aren't Thai and therefore unworthy of explanations.

[garro]

Due to my US company closing the factory that I worked in for 22 years, I accepted a job in Thailand. That was in 1991. I worked here until the economy crashed in 1997. I had enough money saved to stay but decided that my luck and savings would eventually run out. I returned to the US and worked an additional 5 years at well paying jobs in order to top up my social security and my savings in addition to contributing the maximum into my 401K pension plan.

I have told this little story because it appears that many people staying here in Thailand have given VERY little thought to their futures. People who have very little money and are living hand to mouth are crying about visa problems. The question is what are you going to do when you are getting old and can no longer work for peanuts, scam, steal or beg enough money to survive? Is it possible that the Thai government has considered this and is trying to get rid of people who will become a liability?

Things have changed very little for retirees who HAVE planned for their futures. I worked very hard for what little I have and am quite comfortable. I intend to live the rest of my life here in Thailand in relative comfort because I knew that someday I would get old and would need to depend on my pensions to survive. Young people here need to think about this.

It depends on your personal philosophy. I try and live for the day and this had worked for me up to now. I have found that if you do your best today that tomorrow has a habit of working itself out. I have seen others spend a lot of their time thinking about retirement and they haven't even entered their forties yet! Up to them. I have no idea what I will want from life when I'm older so planning for it too much seems a bit of a waste of my present energies.

[kaorop]

The fact is almost all Thais I've met, know little about visa issues for westerners.

and are quite surprised at the hoops in place and don't see why they are in place.

I believe this would be the case for most Thais as well!

That there are constant changes is worrying no matter how well you've "planned".