Music Police

[cmjantje]

Yesterday evening the music police was very active again taking many computers etc without the licenses.

My question is: Can they Just take a computer when it is in your shop? I mean, a friend of mine has a computer in his restaurant, he was Not playing music but they took the machine anyway.

He had to pay 30.000 baht, or go to court, in that case he had to pay security money 50.000 baht.

Can anyone tell me what is legal and what not?

[cmsoulbrother]

We had a guy dressed like an off duty police officer come into our restaurant last week who wanted to look at our computer. the staff let him and he demanded to speak to the owners. We were not in at the time so they called us so that we could speak to him.

He told us that he had found mp3's on the hard drive and that we were going to have to pay a fine. He started to get into the whole "but maybe we can settle this before it goes so far right here and now blah blah blah" when my wife started asking a couple of quite normal questions, like who exactly he was, was he a police officer etc. at which point he got quite angry (and evasive).

Long story short, we told him that we would either meet him the next day at the police station, to clear things up, or we would ask our lawyer to work with him that evening. He hung up the phone angrily and stormed out and we haven't heard from him since.

I still don't know who he was or if he represented any legitimate group.

[StevieH]

have heard several stories in the past week of venues being visited by a person claiming to be a government official, albeit without any corroborating identification, accompanied by a uniformed police officer. the fee has been 50k baht or they take your computer away. sounds bent as <deleted>, but no surprise there of course.

[Geckos]

I just SOLD a bar last year and I know for a FACT IT IS ILLEGAL FOR THE POLICE OR ANYONE FOR THAT MATTER TO TAKE YOUR COMPUTER This happened to me and I phoned my Lawyer and he said it was illegal for the police to take your computer !!! When I went to the cop shop I said give me back my computer NOW or I will press charges !!! 10 sec later I had my computer back !! You see the bib here know more about breaking the law than they know about up holding the LAW !!!

[uptheos]

What WILL they think up next?

[Donnyboy]

no surprises here, this has been reported before, with the sting doing the rounds at bars, internet shops etc, and it wont be the last

[cmjantje]

I just SOLD a bar last year and I know for a FACT IT IS ILLEGAL FOR THE POLICE OR ANYONE FOR THAT MATTER TO TAKE YOUR COMPUTER This happened to me and I phoned my Lawyer and he said it was illegal for the police to take your computer !!! When I went to the cop shop I said give me back my computer NOW or I will press charges !!! 10 sec later I had my computer back !! You see the bib here know more about breaking the law than they know about up holding the LAW !!!

This is exactly what I thought, Thai people are very easy to intimidate though.

Anyway.. I gave my staff the number of my lawyer if anything like this might happen.

Thanks all for the information!

[Puwa]

This makes the stolen rental-bike scam look subtle by comparison.

[cpofc]

I first encountered this in Australia, after we started our first restaurant. There is actually an agency that collects Royalties on behalf of Artists Worldwide. The have offices in Melbourne and Sydney that I know of. I just can't remember what they called thmselves.

The essence being, if you are a commercial establishment that provides music, as I did in my restaurant, you are expeted to play a Flat Fee per year for the playing of copyrighted music. Lets face it Radio Stations have to. Everyone was getting letters from them, Hairdressers, Retail Shops, Restaurants, Cafes. it was all very official and they had scales according to the industry you were in. In restaurants it was based on seating capacity.

Their were even instances of members of this mob walking unnannouced into business premises demanding payment. Whilst legit, they are pretty hamstrung and rely mainly on bluff by the power of the written word.

Whether they exist in Thailand would be doubtful. But there is no way the Police are involved, or can get involved.

Obviously some smart Thais are aware of this and are using it to intimidate and to scam the unwary.

The Police are not money collectors for these people. And there would be something dreadfully wrong if there was. Tell them to get stuffed.

[Rama]

The music police scam were out again last night. I've talked to a local CM lawyer and several bars, guest houses that have been visited. 1) they can only be music police if they have a representative of the Thai Music Association with them. If they don't, it's a COMPLETE scam. Don't let them near your computer, don't let them take it, don't agree to go to the police station with them. DON"T LET THEM PUT A THUMB DRIVE IN YOUR COMPUTER - they'll put the music on your computer! (yes, it's happened!) Take their pictures with your phone, ask them to unzip their jackets, hiding their name and badge so that you can get that on your camera also. They'll leave. 2) If they do have a 'representative' of the THai Music Association with them, they can ONLY ask about the Thai musicians who belong to the Thai Music Association. THEY MUST produce a list of the artists and songs covered. If they don't have, see #1 - tell them to leave adn start taking pictures. If you do have Thai music covered by the Thai Music Association, they DO NOT have any right to take your computer, or to take you to the police station. Tell them you'll pay the fine tomorrow at the main police station with your lawyer - they'll probably leave. The Police that are running the current scam are out of a small sub-station and don't want it known by other police what they're doing. 3) If they bring up international music - International music is not covered by the Thai Music Association - they have no right to enforcement. Again, only music covered by the Thai Music Association is covered. Whenever they get resistance, they leave immediately.

[Sansai Sam]

When I had a club in Hong Kong I was contacted by A.S.C.A.P-The American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers and told I had to pay to play music. I told them to sue me and never heard another word from them as apparently it would cost them more to do that than they would get of I bought a license. The police (at that time) did not participate in such matters so it ended there. I have had several friends hit by this scam in Chiang Mai and none of the police will assist or intervene on their behalf. It all comes down to the corruption in the country once again.

[Donnyboy]

This makes the stolen rental-bike scam look subtle by comparison.

sure does, esp when you consider the business premises out there that have music playing.

There was another thread here that were targeting bars on Loy Khroh recently.

Also posted is the link for licencing fees in Thailand here

[KevinHunt]

The music police scam were out again last night. I've talked to a local CM lawyer and several bars, guest houses that have been visited. 1) they can only be music police if they have a representative of the Thai Music Association with them. If they don't, it's a COMPLETE scam. Don't let them near your computer, don't let them take it, don't agree to go to the police station with them. DON"T LET THEM PUT A THUMB DRIVE IN YOUR COMPUTER - they'll put the music on your computer! (yes, it's happened!) Take their pictures with your phone, ask them to unzip their jackets, hiding their name and badge so that you can get that on your camera also. They'll leave. 2) If they do have a 'representative' of the THai Music Association with them, they can ONLY ask about the Thai musicians who belong to the Thai Music Association. THEY MUST produce a list of the artists and songs covered. If they don't have, see #1 - tell them to leave adn start taking pictures. If you do have Thai music covered by the Thai Music Association, they DO NOT have any right to take your computer, or to take you to the police station. Tell them you'll pay the fine tomorrow at the main police station with your lawyer - they'll probably leave. The Police that are running the current scam are out of a small sub-station and don't want it known by other police what they're doing. 3) If they bring up international music - International music is not covered by the Thai Music Association - they have no right to enforcement. Again, only music covered by the Thai Music Association is covered. Whenever they get resistance, they leave immediately.

I heard that they are in town at the moment.  I researched the matter the last time they were about, as you obviously did.Your advice is perfectly correct so I thought I would bump it up to allow people to see it. Forewarned is forearmed.

[Maccheroncini]

The music police scam were out again last night. I've talked to a local CM lawyer and several bars, guest houses that have been visited. 1) they can only be music police if they have a representative of the Thai Music Association with them. If they don't, it's a COMPLETE scam. Don't let them near your computer, don't let them take it, don't agree to go to the police station with them. DON"T LET THEM PUT A THUMB DRIVE IN YOUR COMPUTER - they'll put the music on your computer! (yes, it's happened!) Take their pictures with your phone, ask them to unzip their jackets, hiding their name and badge so that you can get that on your camera also. They'll leave. 2) If they do have a 'representative' of the THai Music Association with them, they can ONLY ask about the Thai musicians who belong to the Thai Music Association. THEY MUST produce a list of the artists and songs covered. If they don't have, see #1 - tell them to leave adn start taking pictures. If you do have Thai music covered by the Thai Music Association, they DO NOT have any right to take your computer, or to take you to the police station. Tell them you'll pay the fine tomorrow at the main police station with your lawyer - they'll probably leave. The Police that are running the current scam are out of a small sub-station and don't want it known by other police what they're doing. 3) If they bring up international music - International music is not covered by the Thai Music Association - they have no right to enforcement. Again, only music covered by the Thai Music Association is covered. Whenever they get resistance, they leave immediately.

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!

[Samuian]

Same happened on Ko Samui - in Mae Nam, they raided the bars, looked after copied CD's - took if there wasn't enough cash avaiable the "owner" or manager the place to police station and demanded 30.000 to 50.000!

Even for Thai Music productions, they said the "insurance fee" hasn't been paid... !!!!! TiT!

[elektrified]

When I had a club in Hong Kong I was contacted by A.S.C.A.P-The American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers and told I had to pay to play music. I told them to sue me and never heard another word from them as apparently it would cost them more to do that than they would get of I bought a license. The police (at that time) did not participate in such matters so it ended there. I have had several friends hit by this scam in Chiang Mai and none of the police will assist or intervene on their behalf. It all comes down to the corruption in the country once again.

I am a member of A.S.C.A.P. and can tell you that there are investigators who work for A.S.C.A.P. (and BMI) who go to clubs around the world looking for violations (owners who have not paid licensing fees). Usually they come in, sit down and have a couple of drinks and survey the club. They try and get the name of the bartender, discreetly draw a diagram of the layout of the cub on the back of the club's cocktail napkin, make a list of the titles of the songs that were played, the date and times, and if a band was performing them, a description of the performers and their instruments. These guys are generally licensed and bonded similar to process servers. The evidence is later submitted, and in the USA and Canada, a claim is filed in Federal Court. A similar procedure is in place in Western Europe. I am not sure how this works in Asia and elsewhere. I have not heard of anyone having the power to seize your computer without a court judgment, or for that matter, the local police to be involved. It is a civil matter.

[Samuian]

........Usually they come in, sit down and have a couple of drinks and survey the club. They try and get the name of the bartender, discreetly draw a diagram of the layout of the cub on the back of the club's cocktail napkin, make a list of the titles of the songs that were played, the date and times, and if a band was performing them, a description of the performers and their instruments. These guys are generally licensed and bonded similar to process servers. The evidence is later submitted, and in the USA and Canada, a claim is filed in Federal Court. A similar procedure is in place in Western Europe. I am not sure how this works in Asia and elsewhere. I have not heard of anyone having the power to seize your computer without a court judgment, or for that matter, the local police to be involved. It is a civil matter.

There were times it was called street robbery!

Times change!

And here in the LoS these "laws" are abused by the authorities or people with connections to them!

it's basically is plain extortion!

[bluweyze]

There was a big meeting held in Chiang Mai a few weeks ago on this subject by the police and local government. It was in Thai so I sent the wife. In summary none of the guys that come around are legal unless it is a policeman with an agent from the phonographic rights association, plus the relevant documentation. There is a need for a licence if you play music in public, the costs depends upon what music and the type of establishment plus numbers of seats etc. It is a scam that is getting these guys a lot of money

[BOBBYTIN]

The music police scam were out again last night. I've talked to a local CM lawyer and several bars, guest houses that have been visited. 1) they can only be music police if they have a representative of the Thai Music Association with them. If they don't, it's a COMPLETE scam. Don't let them near your computer, don't let them take it, don't agree to go to the police station with them. DON"T LET THEM PUT A THUMB DRIVE IN YOUR COMPUTER - they'll put the music on your computer! (yes, it's happened!) Take their pictures with your phone, ask them to unzip their jackets, hiding their name and badge so that you can get that on your camera also. They'll leave. 2) If they do have a 'representative' of the THai Music Association with them, they can ONLY ask about the Thai musicians who belong to the Thai Music Association. THEY MUST produce a list of the artists and songs covered. If they don't have, see #1 - tell them to leave adn start taking pictures. If you do have Thai music covered by the Thai Music Association, they DO NOT have any right to take your computer, or to take you to the police station. Tell them you'll pay the fine tomorrow at the main police station with your lawyer - they'll probably leave. The Police that are running the current scam are out of a small sub-station and don't want it known by other police what they're doing. 3) If they bring up international music - International music is not covered by the Thai Music Association - they have no right to enforcement. Again, only music covered by the Thai Music Association is covered. Whenever they get resistance, they leave immediately.

last night in front of 20 or so customers i got a visit from what can only be described as a gang,nine men just walked in demanding to see my wife,they go by the name of rkt publishing,i have read already all messages beforehand so i felt prepared,i asked for id,one the arrogant one,the mouthpiece showed me one and then i asked for the others id,they pushed forward 1 who produced a police badge,held firmly in his grip,they proceeded to check our computer,i dont have discs i dont have downloaded music,i stream from spotify,they basically emptied our restaurant,then i started to video at which point they became very agressive tourist friend of mine started to take photos the cop and mouthpiece made him clear them under threat of arrest,then he asked if there was porn on computer,no he said he wanted to check,i asked for a warrent he said my bar is open so none needed,they eventually terrified my wife so much she was hysterical,they took her and my 4 year old daughter to the police station 35km away,there they demanded60000b,we did not have that cash,they said the bar was busy,but it was a leaving party,a one off,where can i find out for sure 100% where to get the correct license,in the end 25000,they the gang were all smiles out side,the policeman,was nowhere to be seen at the station,can anyone give me any concrete help as i dont want to let this drop. i have asked the police,igot no help there,i saw a letter about this company saying they are only responsible for 64 artists,where is this info from,he commented also that another team were coming for the t v during world cup,what is the law,asked two lawyers two answers,where can i get these licenses from,one last thing 1stop musics website,go to that and get a warning that they are a dodgy site,please someone help

[november222]

 music police arent in chiang mai at the moment but take the advice above of kevinhunt and rama and  if any problems contact rkt directly  02-861-1655. they claim these are rogue employess.  bobbytin had a problem down south but replied to this topic after doing a search on tv. 

[thailandbluegrass]

The music police scam were out again last night. I've talked to a local CM lawyer and several bars, guest houses that have been visited. 1) they can only be music police if they have a representative of the Thai Music Association with them. If they don't, it's a COMPLETE scam. Don't let them near your computer, don't let them take it, don't agree to go to the police station with them. DON"T LET THEM PUT A THUMB DRIVE IN YOUR COMPUTER - they'll put the music on your computer! (yes, it's happened!) Take their pictures with your phone, ask them to unzip their jackets, hiding their name and badge so that you can get that on your camera also. They'll leave. 2) If they do have a 'representative' of the THai Music Association with them, they can ONLY ask about the Thai musicians who belong to the Thai Music Association. THEY MUST produce a list of the artists and songs covered. If they don't have, see #1 - tell them to leave adn start taking pictures. If you do have Thai music covered by the Thai Music Association, they DO NOT have any right to take your computer, or to take you to the police station. Tell them you'll pay the fine tomorrow at the main police station with your lawyer - they'll probably leave. The Police that are running the current scam are out of a small sub-station and don't want it known by other police what they're doing. 3) If they bring up international music - International music is not covered by the Thai Music Association - they have no right to enforcement. Again, only music covered by the Thai Music Association is covered. Whenever they get resistance, they leave immediately.

You are correct in most of your posting except for there is no such thing as the Thai Music Association. (Well not the ones that charge you for copyright infringments etc) Hahahah where did you get that from? there is however a Music Association of Thailand whose objectives are to promote Thai music and safeguard the welfare of musicians.

The Authority that does this legaly is called the "Copyright" Authority. They do this in Pattaya a lot but mostly legaly. It does seem like there is a scam going on here and if they come into your shop just tell them you need to go to the ATM to get the money then simply call the police or if you see one tell him to follow you back to your bar/restraunt etc.

Even the Copyright Authority can ONLY sieze DVD's that are ilegal etc and they are ALWAYS accompanied by a real Police-man/woman.

[november222]

wrong post 

[BOBBYTIN]

 music police arent in chiang mai at the moment but take the advice above of kevinhunt and rama and  if any problems contact rkt directly  02-861-1655. they claim these are rogue employess.  bobbytin had a problem down south but replied to this topic after doing a search on tv. 

ongoing with enquiries but here is an update,these guys have no right to enter your premises,they say they are copyright police,not true,look at the website,R K T publishing, they sell a license to play music controlled by their publishing company,thats it,when we asked there director,the next day by the way,he said they had no right to take money,asked would they be dismissed,would we get our money back he said he would deal with it,yeah right,they come with 9 of them one claims to be the police,when like me you get to the police station,he,the policeman is nowhere to be seen,two girls appear,these are the sales girls,these are no more than that,just sales girls the other seven men will not appear also, the next day my lawyer phoned for info about r k t license,was told actually its mostly for karaoke, when he asked how they can take 20000 from someone with no copy cds,no thai music she hung up,in if they come,refuse entry.if they come in,they really dont want you to video,i got my video out no batteries,asked customer to vid and he said we were making things worse,but 3 of them were already leaving,video them,ask for more id,ring the tourist police, they have probably been to the local police and said they have had reports that you are playing their music,they actually are scamming the locals too,ours is quite pissed, and remember if you are playing 50s music there is no copyright,they have to have proof you are playing their music so if a thai asks you to play his favorite song,dont. Do not,ideally, play thai music,they really are good at what they do,i knew i was been scammed but there was just that 1% doubt,dont go to the police station,get the police to ask questions,I stream my music,kind of like radio you can choose the songs,you can not download music or copy it only play,they work as sales people for r k t publishing but present themselves as copyright police,they are not,i know hindsight is a great thing but i did get stung,finally,i found out 1 week ago they went to rai lai beach krabi,the locals called there bluff,they were run off though 2 places bought there worthless license,i was not the last one im sure,you can get a license from 1stop music,but when you go to their website you are warned not to go on as they have malware,anyone know the number,would be grateful.good luck.ask who gave permission locally to come,ie chief of police,ring that person,ask what reason they gave to come,if they told him its for playing their music,then that is all they can get you on,once you are in the police station,they play the wife will go to jail card,call it.they came in 2 white honda jazz and two pick ups,the jazz have chiang mai plates,good luck

[Donnyboy]

unfortunately, these scammers arent caught by police and dealt with, so they carry on their scamming ways

they are probably BIB or ex BIB doing this part time imo

[mamborobert]

I have been in a bar in CM when the "Music Police" paid a vist, somes bars had a license on the wall and had no problems. One (the one I was in (did not). At first it was two young well dressed guys. The farang owner pretended to be a customer and left the bar manager to wear it all. As no assistance was coming the two guys disappeared, came back later with uniformed police and a video camera, all in all they wer every professional, I was more impresssed with them than the bar owner abandoning his staff (as I gather he had no work permit). Ended up as a 25k baht fine at the police station, all for the sake of (from memory a 5 or 8k baht license). They did take away a few dozen burned cd's as well never to return. Came back a few days later and the license is up on the wall.

[gotlost]

I have been in a bar in CM when the "Music Police" paid a vist, somes bars had a license on the wall and had no problems. One (the one I was in (did not). At first it was two young well dressed guys. The farang owner pretended to be a customer and left the bar manager to wear it all. As no assistance was coming the two guys disappeared, came back later with uniformed police and a video camera, all in all they wer every professional, I was more impresssed with them than the bar owner abandoning his staff (as I gather he had no work permit). Ended up as a 25k baht fine at the police station, all for the sake of (from memory a 5 or 8k baht license). They did take away a few dozen burned cd's as well never to return. Came back a few days later and the license is up on the wall.

99.9% of bar owners don't have work permits and can't even spell the word.

[mamborobert]

I have been in a bar in CM when the "Music Police" paid a vist, somes bars had a license on the wall and had no problems. One (the one I was in (did not). At first it was two young well dressed guys. The farang owner pretended to be a customer and left the bar manager to wear it all. As no assistance was coming the two guys disappeared, came back later with uniformed police and a video camera, all in all they wer every professional, I was more impresssed with them than the bar owner abandoning his staff (as I gather he had no work permit). Ended up as a 25k baht fine at the police station, all for the sake of (from memory a 5 or 8k baht license). They did take away a few dozen burned cd's as well never to return. Came back a few days later and the license is up on the wall.

99.9% of bar owners don't have work permits and can't even spell the word.

I hear you ok on that issue, wonder who the .1 is

I was still suprised at how quickly this guy abandoned his staff, I mean even if he said he was the owner all it would be was a quick trip to the station and (probably a larger) fine. As it is the girl got threatened with the over night stay and this guy did f all. Not sure if he was worried about getting a bigger fine, or his own welfare (I think the later). Anyhow ...not having a work permit and owning or running bar I can let slide,abandoning your staff, and female staff at that, to save your own skin, for being too tight to get a license when everyone else managed to, is the bit I find hard to wear. The girls were pretty much terrified at getting in trouble with BIB and I gather most had kids to go back to that night or morning, just can't understand some guys.

[gotlost]

I have been in a bar in CM when the "Music Police" paid a vist, somes bars had a license on the wall and had no problems. One (the one I was in (did not). At first it was two young well dressed guys. The farang owner pretended to be a customer and left the bar manager to wear it all. As no assistance was coming the two guys disappeared, came back later with uniformed police and a video camera, all in all they wer every professional, I was more impresssed with them than the bar owner abandoning his staff (as I gather he had no work permit). Ended up as a 25k baht fine at the police station, all for the sake of (from memory a 5 or 8k baht license). They did take away a few dozen burned cd's as well never to return. Came back a few days later and the license is up on the wall.

99.9% of bar owners don't have work permits and can't even spell the word.

I hear you ok on that issue, wonder who the .1 is

I was still suprised at how quickly this guy abandoned his staff, I mean even if he said he was the owner all it would be was a quick trip to the station and (probably a larger) fine. As it is the girl got threatened with the over night stay and this guy did f all. Not sure if he was worried about getting a bigger fine, or his own welfare (I think the later). Anyhow ...not having a work permit and owning or running bar I can let slide,abandoning your staff, and female staff at that, to save your own skin, for being too tight to get a license when everyone else managed to, is the bit I find hard to wear. The girls were pretty much terrified at getting in trouble with BIB and I gather most had kids to go back to that night or morning, just can't understand some guys.

For the typical bar operation that the punter sees a farang is NOT going to get a work permit nor will the authorities issue one.

[Donnyboy]

I have been in a bar in CM when the "Music Police" paid a vist, somes bars had a license on the wall and had no problems. One (the one I was in (did not). At first it was two young well dressed guys. The farang owner pretended to be a customer and left the bar manager to wear it all. As no assistance was coming the two guys disappeared, came back later with uniformed police and a video camera, all in all they wer every professional, I was more impresssed with them than the bar owner abandoning his staff (as I gather he had no work permit). Ended up as a 25k baht fine at the police station, all for the sake of (from memory a 5 or 8k baht license). They did take away a few dozen burned cd's as well never to return. Came back a few days later and the license is up on the wall.

99.9% of bar owners don't have work permits and can't even spell the word.

I hear you ok on that issue, wonder who the .1 is

I was still suprised at how quickly this guy abandoned his staff, I mean even if he said he was the owner all it would be was a quick trip to the station and (probably a larger) fine. As it is the girl got threatened with the over night stay and this guy did f all. Not sure if he was worried about getting a bigger fine, or his own welfare (I think the later). Anyhow ...not having a work permit and owning or running bar I can let slide,abandoning your staff, and female staff at that, to save your own skin, for being too tight to get a license when everyone else managed to, is the bit I find hard to wear. The girls were pretty much terrified at getting in trouble with BIB and I gather most had kids to go back to that night or morning, just can't understand some guys.

For the typical bar operation that the punter sees a farang is NOT going to get a work permit nor will the authorities issue one.

eh? i thought most would have their paperwork in order as this type of business would be one of the first places that would get shaken down

[Mestizo]

If this is nothing but a big scam, and the license certificates are worthless, why don't all the bar owners pool their resources and mass duplicate the licenses certs that have already been paid for? Scan, change the names accordingly, print, frame and hang up. I doubt these people have some way to quickly verify authenticity before you are able to completely sanitize your computer of all music, etc.

-Mestizo