Crackdown On Back-to-back Tourist Visa Applications

[tim73]

In the "Red Warning stamp" thread the OP informed us he has 9 entries using his current passport, and adds the number would be more if previous passport entries were included. That kind of suggests to me that the immigration system is hooked to looking at single passport number only. So, obtaining a new passport may circumvent the system ... for now.

Actually, he has 5 tourist visas in his old one and four in the new passport (either single or double entries). So they calculated both. They do have computers and central database in Thailand and check the person whether he/she is blacklisted and what kind of visas have been issued to him/her before. This "just get another passport" won't work.

You go to a visa run, remember what they do there at the border...they type your passport info to the computer...

[wtk]

In the "Red Warning stamp" thread the OP informed us he has 9 entries using his current passport, and adds the number would be more if previous passport entries were included. That kind of suggests to me that the immigration system is hooked to looking at single passport number only. So, obtaining a new passport may circumvent the system ... for now.

Actually, he has 5 tourist visas in his old one and four in the new passport (either single or double entries). So they calculated both. They do have computers and central database in Thailand and check the person whether he/she is blacklisted and what kind of visas have been issued to him/her before. This "just get another passport" won't work.

You go to a visa run, remember what they do there at the border...they type your passport info to the computer...

wrong.

please reread what he wrote and understand the difference between an entry and a visa

[tropo]

Interesting point, the red stamp given to the guy in the other thread did not mention a consulate/ embassy. I am sure in the past that when these stamps were given out, especially in Penang, they said something like 'do not apply at this consulate again'. This one seems much broader, and going to another consulate may not be the answer.

Here is the wording from a Penang red stamp issued in 2007:

Remark: The holder has traveled to Thailand with tourist visa ...... times. The Consulate-General may not accept the application next time.

It's exactly the same as the new stamps from Vientiane apart from replacing "Consulate - General" with "Embassy".

[tropo]

In answer to some speculation in this thread:

1. Previously, in 2007, after receiving the red stamp warning from Penang I successfully obtained a double entry tourist visa in Vientiane. (back-to-back)

2. A new passport avoided the red stamp in Penang back in 2007. Please note that the new passport was from a different country as I have dual nationality. I have no idea if a new passport from the same country would achieve the same result.

[hullupullo]

In the "Red Warning stamp" thread the OP informed us he has 9 entries using his current passport, and adds the number would be more if previous passport entries were included. That kind of suggests to me that the immigration system is hooked to looking at single passport number only. So, obtaining a new passport may circumvent the system ... for now.

Actually, he has 5 tourist visas in his old one and four in the new passport (either single or double entries). So they calculated both. They do have computers and central database in Thailand and check the person whether he/she is blacklisted and what kind of visas have been issued to him/her before. This "just get another passport" won't work.

You go to a visa run, remember what they do there at the border...they type your passport info to the computer...

wrong.

please reread what he wrote and understand the difference between an entry and a visa

To make this clear one more time.

My old passport has 4 touristvisas and 5 entries + 3 extensions.

Then new passport from Finland.

New passport 3 touristvisas and 7 entries + 2 extensions.

After all this I got double entry visa last tuesday from Vientiane with red stamp.

So now 4 visas and 8 entries, one entry to use.

All visas I used as back to back, only in Finland I stayed 3 weeks.

Hope make some sense now to all.

[MacWalen]

So there you are, actual experience.

[block2]

Looks like red stamp for me then on wednesday...will let you know my outcome when i get back next friday.

R&R Block

[tropo]

Then new passport from Finland.

New passport 3 touristvisas and 7 entries + 2 extensions.

So is this how they came up with the 9 entries they indicated on your warning stamp? 7 previous entries plus 2 future entries possible with your new double entry tourist visa.

[thaiphoon]

Then new passport from Finland.

New passport 3 touristvisas and 7 entries + 2 extensions.

So is this how they came up with the 9 entries they indicated on your warning stamp? 7 previous entries plus 2 future entries possible with your new double entry tourist visa.

That's what I calculated too, hence my comment in post #633 that obtaining a new passport may circumvent the system ... as previous passport entries have been ignored.

Edited September 26, 2009 by thaiphoon

[oMega69]

So if i have proof of income from abroad , there should be no problem for back-to-back visa or what does u guys think ?

[Maestro]

oMega69, the purpose of the whole exercise appears to be to flush out pseudo-tourists who are working in Thailand without a work permit and without paying taxes. Therefore, it seems that it would be necessary for you to prove that you do not fall into that category, a difficult undertaking as it is always more difficult to prove the non-existence of something rather than the existence of it. If you are a genuine tourist, you could submit the following to the Thai consulate with your application for a tourist visa:

– itinerary of your past tourism travel in Thailand, with copies of transportation tickets, hotel bills, etc.

– itinerary of planned tourism travel in Thailand during the visits with the new visa you are applying for, with copies of transportation and flight reservations where available

– evidence of funds for your travel in Thailand based on the new visa

– covering letter addressed to “His Excellency The Consul” explaining your situation and affirming that you will not work illegally or otherwise engage in illegal activities whilst in Thailand

--

Maestro

[tropo]

So if i have proof of income from abroad , there should be no problem for back-to-back visa or what does u guys think ?

It's worth a try. I've heard of that working with some people in Penang when they first started issuing warning stamps. The agents were saying at the time that this will work. I didn't bother pursuing this avenue out of Penang because at that time Vientiane was fast becoming a no-warning-stamp-double-entry-tourist-visa-factory.

The main reason for this crackdown is to stop people working illegally on tourist visas, so if you can prove that you have no need to work in Thailand they may issue you with another tourist visa even with a red warning stamp in your passport.

Edited September 26, 2009 by tropo

[oMega69]

oMega69, the purpose of the whole exercise appears to be to flush out pseudo-tourists who are working in Thailand without a work permit and without paying taxes. Therefore, it seems that it would be necessary for you to prove that you do not fall into that category, a difficult undertaking as it is always more difficult to prove the non-existence of something rather than the existence of it. If you are a genuine tourist, you could submit the following to the Thai consulate with your application for a tourist visa:

– itinerary of your past tourism travel in Thailand, with copies of transportation tickets, hotel bills, etc.

– itinerary of planned tourism travel in Thailand during the visits with the new visa you are applying for, with copies of transportation and flight reservations where available

– evidence of funds for your travel in Thailand based on the new visa

– covering letter addressed to "His Excellency The Consul" explaining your situation and affirming that you will not work illegally or otherwise engage in illegal activities whilst in Thailand

--

Maestro

So if i have proof of income from abroad , there should be no problem for back-to-back visa or what does u guys think ?

It's worth a try. I've heard of that working with some people in Penang when they first started issuing warning stamps. The agents were saying at the time that this will work. I didn't bother pursuing this avenue out of Penang because at that time Vientiane was fast becoming a no-warning-stamp-double-entry-tourist-visa-factory.

The main reason for this crackdown is to stop people working illegally on tourist visas, so if you can prove that you have no need to work in Thailand they may issue you with another tourist visa even with a red warning stamp in your passport.

Thanks for the reply .,

Well i just will try to apply then and see what hapends . ,

Worst case scenario is to go for the ED visa instead .,

[RubbaJohnny]

Forget that crap about only pursuing high end tourists....they need tourists plain and simple....and they are going for cheap tour groups from china, so let the sexpats, low income expats, etc stay as long as they aren't breaking the laws (except the prostitution laws, which are hardly enforced and the real reason many expats are expats to start with).

sorry to hear so many expats are now rent boys It hought only the Ukranian ladies had stooped so low.

Explains those haggard faces nursing a small Chang in a seedy sois.

I realise the hands on flexibility Anglo-Saxon model will bend over backwards to be enterprising but I hadn't realised the oldest profession now recruited Thai Visa holders.

There is no word in French for entrepreneur,but sir I admire honesty to come out in a public way typical caucasian spunk.

[michemiche]

– covering letter addressed to "His Excellency The Consul" explaining your situation and affirming that you will not work illegally or otherwise engage in illegal activities whilst in Thailand

--

Maestro

Can u give an exemple of letter, please ???

thanx

[Jingthing]

Suggestion to Thai immigration: LOWER the age requirement for the retirement extensions. Then any of the back to backers who have the moolah can put an end to all this foolishness.

[Somtamnication]

Friend just got back from Penang. 11 on the bus, 7 refused tourist visas. They consider that applying for a visa counts towards the final count of your total visas allowed. If that makes any sense, let me know.

[eek]

Suggestion to Thai immigration: LOWER the age requirement for the retirement extensions. Then any of the back to backers who have the moolah can put an end to all this foolishness.

Oh That would be fantastic!! Doubt it will ever happen though

[kosh]

Suggestion to Thai immigration: LOWER the age requirement for the retirement extensions. Then any of the back to backers who have the moolah can put an end to all this foolishness.

Oh That would be fantastic!! Doubt it will ever happen though

Nice but call it with another name....

Retirement age in EU is around 65..

Edited September 30, 2009 by kosh

[Richard W]

Suggestion to Thai immigration: LOWER the age requirement for the retirement extensions. Then any of the back to backers who have the moolah can put an end to all this foolishness.

Oh That would be fantastic!! Doubt it will ever happen though

Nice but call it with another name....

Retirement age in EU is around 65..

Gentleman of leisure?

[tijnebijn]

Suggestion to Thai immigration: LOWER the age requirement for the retirement extensions. Then any of the back to backers who have the moolah can put an end to all this foolishness.

Oh That would be fantastic!! Doubt it will ever happen though

Nice but call it with another name....

Retirement age in EU is around 65..

Even 67 , there is a big witch hunt in Europe to keep everybody working till 67 ,

in Germany already and Holland to come .

Fifty years of age is very generous , 55 should be more common sense , they should make it easier

to apply for non O's . Its crazy they refuse so many tourist applications what I read here , I remember me

border running and tourist visa stays in the beginning of my years in Thailand .Lifes hard now for those .

Even the marriage extensions they keep changing all the time .

Thailand just SUCKS in being moderate with all those changes and is great in flip flopping policies .

The Champion in this , thery must feel very proud those generals .

My guess is cause everytime a police general retires another one goes up and prompt you see

rapid changes again , and they change every 3 years so who's next ?

Edited September 30, 2009 by tijnebijn

[Jingthing]

You can use a bank account of 800K baht to qualify for the retirement extensions. There are many people in the world with a pile of money who can stop work quite early (some never work). The age was already lowered from 55 to 50, so the trend is lower. Some countries offer retirement visa options for ages quite a bit younger.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Jingthing

[soihok]

You can use a bank account of 800K baht to qualify for the retirement extensions. There are many people in the world with a pile of money who can stop work quite early (some never work). The age was already lowered from 55 to 50, so the trend is lower. Some countries offer retirement visa options for ages quite a bit younger.

How I wish I could stop working at 50.

With a two year old and a girl of 6 , at the age of 44 I cant see retirement until................pass me the dam_n specs tirak!

[RandyWhite]

It is easy follow the law and you have no problems.Try to get a visa for europe as Thai people and you will see were it is the most difficult.

If you work get a workpermit like in every decent country in the world and you get a 1 year renewable visa.If you are retired put 800.000 baht in a thai account and you get also the same visa.The people who complain are those who are doing monkey business and think that as foreigner all is allowed.Dont forget we are guest here no local people.

You forgot all the foreigners who are less than 50, not married with Thai and don't work, just spend time and money here.

I know a lot of these guys and they don't understand the strict rules as they support Thai local economy.

Who think about them ?

For all you 'I'm alright, Jack' posters, here's an all too common scenario that the clampdown does not take into account:

A farang begins a new job under the usual deliberately misrepresented terms and conditions here on the usual six month 'probation' system during which the employer will not provide the documents for a Non. Imm. visa.

Then the farang either a) passes probation, doesn't pass probation - no justification required other than "unsuitable", c) resigns - usually due to employers 'misrepresentations' - i.e. lying and cheating, d) passes probation and resigns due to ongoing 'misrepresentations'.

So unless it's a case of 'first time lucky' (rare) or of accepting (rationalizing?) the insultingly uncivilised and unprofessional state of affairs (TIT) foisted on the organization, the industry (especially those like education which are well insulated foreign competition) and in fact the whole country by those in power, then - depending on the current state of policy 'flip-flop' - the alien farang can still have a problem even though they started off with a 60-day Tourist Visa.

As professional operators are very hard to find here (again, I don't blame the Thai staff - it's the system and those responsible for it) in those industries (and most others) the process of finding a second (or third job) compounds the difficulty for those unwilling to 'KOW TOW'. or as the Chinese so charmingly put it, 'tremble and obey'.

And some people wonder why it's called the Kingdom of Illusions.

RAW.

[JR Texas]

Perhaps the "rule" has nothing to do with preventing farangs from working without a work permit while on a tourist visa. The entire idea seems like a straw man to me.

First, the vast majority of farangs do not want to work in Thailand.

Second, the vast majority who do work have work permits.

Third, the vast majority of people who work illegally are not farangs.

Fourth, any visa category holder can elect to break the law, not just those with a tourist visa.

No, this is simply one in a long line of changes based on xenophobia.

You have to put all of this in perspective.

Ten years ago there was no farang visa problem. That changed with Mr. T.

The stated (but bogus) reason for the change was to improve security.......and the focus was on "border runners" with no visa. The actual attack was to push low income farangs out of Thailand......never mind that many high income farangs were doing border runs for one reason or another.

Of course, even back then the changes did nothing to improve security. The odd thing was that border runners were the most scrutinized precisely because they entered and left the country so many times over the course of a year (did not make sense then and still does not make sense if security is the reason).

After that, they decided to go after tourists with visas.........then farangs married to Thais...........retired expats..............now they are back focusing on tourists with visas who might be working illegally.

All of this is based on xenophobia and does nothing to improve security. It does, however, give Thailand a reputation as being tourism unfriendly, expat unfriendly, and investment unfriendly.

As stated before, Malaysia, the Philippines, Cambodia and Vietnam are laughing their heads off..........probably thinking "keep it up Thailand and thanks for the money!"

[Ricci]

@JR Texas

my words

[tropo]

First, the vast majority of farangs do not want to work in Thailand.

You'd have to wonder why first worlders would want to come to a 3rd country to work.

...However, a large percentage of the illegal workers using back-to-back tourist visas are from poorer neighboring countries, especially the Philippines. Farangs are the minority in the long lines at the Vientiane consulate.

[block2]

Hi All,

Just got back 2 hours ago...from Laos...double entry...no red stamp...have 3 singles in old pp 4 doubles in my new pp, this new one making 5. Got there at 11.10am on Wednesday to apply...10 people in front of me..picked up yesterday 2.30pm, nobody there.

Also went down on night train sleeper this time..got there just before 10am..10am train across the border 20 baht...immigration was empty only 10 or so people, you handed in you pp with form and payment for Laos visa, got it back three minutes later.

I have stood in that queue at the road border immigration for upto 2 hours in the past, mainly to the visa companys from Bangkok and Pattaya not forgetting the Filapino TV teachers. Would recommend this point of entry....exit..didn't try has came back on bus back.

Block2

Edited October 2, 2009 by block2

[clockworkorange]

First, the vast majority of farangs do not want to work in Thailand.

But there are a lot that do.

Now, what is the motivation behind this latest crackdown?

1) People living in Thailand on tourist visas are not in the tax system, which seems to be the reason behind why the authorities want to end the practice. Non-imm visa holders have been screened, and for many the only way that they will be able to stay in Thailand is to get work permits, and start paying income tax. This presents a revenue opportunity for the cash strapped government, and it is difficult to deny that governments the world over rightly expect residents to pay income tax.

2) Thailand gets constantly bashed for harbouring high profile criminals who are on the run. Clearly, this represents only a tiny fraction of one percent of all the good people who bend the rules with back-to-back tourist visas, but it has been a source of national embarassment nonetheless, as we have seen in the newspapers. Forcing people to return to their home countries once in a while, screening them in this way, solves this problem

[JR Texas]

First, the vast majority of farangs do not want to work in Thailand.

But there are a lot that do.

Now, what is the motivation behind this latest crackdown?

1) People living in Thailand on tourist visas are not in the tax system, which seems to be the reason behind why the authorities want to end the practice. Non-imm visa holders have been screened, and for many the only way that they will be able to stay in Thailand is to get work permits, and start paying income tax. This presents a revenue opportunity for the cash strapped government, and it is difficult to deny that governments the world over rightly expect residents to pay income tax.

2) Thailand gets constantly bashed for harbouring high profile criminals who are on the run. Clearly, this represents only a tiny fraction of one percent of all the good people who bend the rules with back-to-back tourist visas, but it has been a source of national embarassment nonetheless, as we have seen in the newspapers. Forcing people to return to their home countries once in a while, screening them in this way, solves this problem

I would say "some do," not "a lot do."

And surely you will agree that the taxes they are losing as a result of a tiny fraction of tourist visa holders who are working illegally amounts to almost nothing.

I can think of many other ways of increasing tax revenues.........e.g., closing loopholes for the ultra rich who pay no taxes.

If you are saying the only way to screen potential criminals is to force them go return home........think again. They were screened when they left home........right? Then they were screened again when the entered Thailand. The "border runners" were screened more times than any other category of "visa holders."

I have said it before, and will repeat it. If security is the issue, the social engineering program based on "income" needs to stop. In its place, long stay tourists can pay for and obtain a security clearance from their respective embassies to satisfy any security concern Thai officials might have. There is no need to return home (that is a straw man...as I said you are screened already when you leave home).

If security is the issue, it might be a good idea to implement a pay to stay system and free immigration to start thinking about security rather than how many stamps a person has in his passport or red marks or whatever.........they spend way too much time counting days and far less time assessing a person as a possible security threat.

In fact, the entire system is broken...........it is not doing what it is supposed to be doing.........they are not focusing on what they should be focusing on. It needs to be fixed. Immigration is about security, not social engineering.