Red Warning Stamp at Vientienne

[tropo]

I have an issue with them clamping down on any nationalities just because of an assumption that they may be working. There are plenty of other nationalities working illegally on tourist visas too. The problem we have at the Vientiane consulate is that they don't seem to have made any allowance for personally interviewing applicants to establish the likelihood of them working. A look at a bank balance would be an easy way to decide if they are working or not. I had absolutely no way of explaning to anyone that I support her.

You have an issue? It's the same everywhere. In the western world, your country included, some nationalities have a much better chance of visiting multiple times with no questions asked than do others. New Zealand, for example, would let an American or Western European to pass as a tourist with no scrutiny at all, but would put even a bona fide Thai tourist through the wringer and assume that the Thai was trying to work illegally.

Same all over, and who are you to blame Thailand for clamping down, when Thais themselves are the ones who are usually at the receiving end of suspicion and strict immigration rules in your own country and elsewhere?

You just don't get it at all Mr. Clockwork.

You've probably just come back just for an argument, but allow me to clear it up for you.

My country allows people from every nation to apply for a tourist visa and gives the opportunity for all applicants to prove that they can afford to visit and will not overstay or work. They don't reject an applicant purely based on nationality. They cannot, because there are laws in place to prevent that type of discrimination. Sure, they look more closely when applicants come from poor countries (obviously), but they all have equal opportunity.

The Consulate in Vientiane (which is actually the topic of this thread) decides only on nationality and there is no process in place to allow applicants from poorer nations to show they have the funds necessary to be genuine tourists. There are wealthy people even in the poor nations, but in Vientiane they are all branded the same.

Edited November 1, 2009 by tropo

[tropo]

point being, IF this guy could deliver on his promise (we never found out) THEN all agents are not created equal--the Vientiane consulate didn't offer same day TV service at the time (probably still don't). there may be some agents who can get results, so anyone who uses an agent and does not get a red stamp should probably post some info about the agent and the process.

You make a good point. My agent did not interfere with the application process. He took us up the window and submitted the applications with us. He picked up the passport the next day. We were still totally at the mercy of the powers to be inside.

There maybe agents who have some sway with the people inside who make the decisions. I wouldn't want to pay 2 - 2.5 k to find out they don't. Who knows????

In Penang there was an agent who claimed that they could petition on my behalf with supporting documents...but they didn't seem overconfident or guarantee a result, so I never tried. In Vientiane the agents resemble a pack of non-English speaking wolves.

Edited November 1, 2009 by tropo

[jazzbo]

I think I do understand. Thai law makes no provisions for any type of visa for non-Spousal partners... nor does the USA. Maybe you would like there to be a new T.M. Form:

Proof of Financial Support by Non-Thai Alien of Non-Spousal Non-Thai Alien of Opposite Gender

In the USA, whether one gets the 6-month Visa-waiver (Singapore, Japan, South Korea, France, and others) is solely based on the State Departments probability calculation that a visitor will return home; for Thailand, they have decided the probability is just too high they will not... they can petition for Visa at the US Embassy in their home country.

If you want to petition, my guess is that you will do better in your home country rather than a country (Laos) of your convenience.

[fozzy58uk]

As posted before, I received a double entry TV and the red stamp. No questions asked, no appeal, no evidence that I have been working illegally. The stamp merely says I have entered multiple times. If the reason for my red stamp is multiple entries, then why is there no posted limit? If the reason for my rejection is supposed working, why no interview? It is true that Thais have some problems obtaining visas for "western countries" but they are granted interviews and the rules and reasons for acceptance and denial are given. Appeal is also allowed. Again, as I have previously posted, I have no problem with Thais setting the rules for immigration into their country, I would just like them to tell the rest of us what criteria they are applying when they make these decisions, so that I can make an informed decision as how to proceed instead of entering what appears to be a lottery. To tropo, really bad deal for your GF, she appears to be the only outright rejection we have heard of on these forums.

[jazzbo]

but they (Thai citizens) are granted interviews and the rules and reasons for acceptance and denial are given. Appeal is also allowed.

Yes... and they do so in their home country of Thailand i.e. the US Embassy on Wireless... not (usually) in Brazil.

And with all due respect to Kuhn Tropo, as there is no legally binding relationship, whatever you might be able prove today (to an Embassy official's way of thinking) may not be the case tomorrow.

[clockworkorange]

You just don't get it at all Mr. Clockwork.

You've probably just come back just for an argument, but allow me to clear it up for you.

My country allows people from every nation to apply for a tourist visa and gives the opportunity for all applicants to prove that they can afford to visit and will not overstay or work. They don't reject an applicant purely based on nationality. They cannot, because there are laws in place to prevent that type of discrimination. Sure, they look more closely when applicants come from poor countries (obviously), but they all have equal opportunity.

The Consulate in Vientiane (which is actually the topic of this thread) decides only on nationality and there is no process in place to allow applicants from poorer nations to show they have the funds necessary to be genuine tourists. There are wealthy people even in the poor nations, but in Vientiane they are all branded the same.

You say that your country would not reject an applicant based on nationality, and then you go on too say that your country looks more closely at applicants from poorer counties. Isn't that exactly what Thailand is doing here? Thais often get rejected for visas in the western world and are the subject of intense scrutiny, so it's unfair to take issue with them when they scrutinize us. I know more than a few bona fide Thais who were refused visas by western countries, even though they had no intention of working or residing.

What goes around comes around. There are avenues to stay legally long term without having to blame Thailand for enforcement of rules that are commpletely understandable, and no different from rules in the rest of the world. Immigration law, by its very nature, does discriminate.

[Hawkup2000]

Outside the consulate there is a "service" were you can make copies etc. They lied to me as much as they could just to persuade me to use their services. They said: "No copy machine inside". Wrong, there is a copy machine in the consulate.

They said: "Very much people today". The place was half empty.

As I understand it Tropo is right. How can you prove anything when they don't accept additional documents? I had prepared with a bank statement to prove that I have sufficient funds. I also had a copy of a ticket out of Thailand. They didn't even look at the papers; just handed them back.

Personally I'm very surprised that I didn't get a warning stamp when other people have gotten it. As a 30 year old male with 4 previous TR I thought that I would get a red stamp.

[jazzbo]

The Royal Thai Embassy in Vientiane, Lao PDR has 2 principal functions as does any Embassy or Consulate:

1) To assist the Citizens of that country, namely Lao PDR Citizens, in their Consular dealings with the Kingdom of Thailand.

2) To assist citizens of The Kingdom of Thailand while they are in the Lao PDR.

Anything else, including issuance of visas to Citizens of 3rd party countries, is strictly as a convenience and at their sole discretion...

If you have a problem that needs a petition, or documents, or affidavit, etc. fine. Do it in your home country.

[tracer]

Haven't done anything wrong or illegal, there just is no other visa for me.

Obtain Non-O multiple entry visa on the basis of visiting friends from Perth or some of the honorary consulates in Europe is an alternative option.

Ok that can do. Helsinki gave one before. But I still haven't done anything illegal or wrong, that was my point.

Can you please confirm if you previous visas were back to back or spaced out??

As your previous visa was from Helsinki, well outside the local region,

it does rather sound like a knee jerk reaction from Vientienne.

Helsinki, Vientiane, Vientiane and now again Vientiane. Never stayed outside Thailand more than 1-2 nights.

Staying in Thailand for more then a year, without work / income??

Suggest you get a proper visum...

[lopburi3]

The Royal Thai Embassy in Vientiane, Lao PDR has 2 principal functions as does any Embassy or Consulate:

em·bas·sy (mb-s)

n. pl. em·bas·sies

1. A building containing the offices of an ambassador and staff.

2. The position, function, or assignment of an ambassador.

3. A mission to a foreign government headed by an ambassador.

4. A staff of diplomatic representatives headed by an ambassador.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/embassy

Embassies deal with government/heads of government. Consulates deal with citizen issues. They may be co located but they have very different functions.

[Hawkup2000]

hullupullo

These days the consulate in Copenhagen issue Non-O multiple entry visa(1 year) if you say that you want to visit girlfriend/friend.

[jazzbo]

At the US Embassy in Bangkok, issues dealing with US Citizens are at the Embassy; the Consular Section of the US Embassy is for non-USA citizens... so Kuhn L., 50/50 maybe.

The American Citizen Services (ACS) section of the

U.S. Embassy

is open to the public Monday through Friday from...

The

Consular Section of the U.S. Embassy

in Bangkok is responsible for providing visa services to those seeking to enter the United States for a temporary period and for those wishing to take up indefinite or permanent residence in the United States.

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/

[lopburi3]

And where do you find the ACSU? In the Consulate section of the old Embassy building. And who do you talk with? A Consular Officer.

[jazzbo]

Embassies deal with government/heads of government. Consulates deal with citizen issues. They may be co located but they have very different functions.

This is the telephone number of the US Embassy: 02-xxx-4049

Tell them that according to http://www.thefreedictionary.com/embassy , they have screwed up.

[kosh]

I had absolutely no way of explaining to anyone that I support her. I think the way of explaining under Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs Visa regulations is referred to as 'marriage'.

You just don't seem to understand. Marriage is irrelevant as far as tourist visas go. As I said ealier, there is no way to petition to anyone in the Vientiane Consulate.

The point I was making is that they are clamping down on SE Asians applying for tourist visas because they consider them as a high risk for working illegally.

There is no way to prove to anyone that you will not or don't need to work, or any way to prove that the chances of you working are small. The decision is based purely on nationality and your visa history.

Have you tryed going on the embassy in her native country?

Every time I go to the thai embassy in my country they always ask : What visa do you like?

[hullupullo]

Staying in Thailand for more then a year, without work / income??

Suggest you get a proper visum...

No work, income have. So tell me what proper visum I could get, say about... from Vientieane? Wait, not tell because there is no visa for me, only TR. Not married, not working, no business, not student, no volunteer, under 50year. Next TR I go get from KL.

[tropo]

I think I do understand. Thai law makes no provisions for any type of visa for non-Spousal partners... nor does the USA. Maybe you would like there to be a new T.M. Form:

Proof of Financial Support by Non-Thai Alien of Non-Spousal Non-Thai Alien of Opposite Gender

In the USA, whether one gets the 6-month Visa-waiver (Singapore, Japan, South Korea, France, and others) is solely based on the State Departments probability calculation that a visitor will return home; for Thailand, they have decided the probability is just too high they will not... they can petition for Visa at the US Embassy in their home country.

If you want to petition, my guess is that you will do better in your home country rather than a country (Laos) of your convenience.

What's the point of offering me advice about how the US views non-spousal partners.

In Australia and most Commonwealth Nations, living together is considered a common law marriage or defacto marriage and NOT non-spousal.

Did you miss the point where I stated that married or not, it will make no difference in Vientiane when applying for a tourist visa? We are discussing Vientiane here. Please check the title of this thread before you go off in tangents. There would be many other consulates arond the world which would allow people to present supporting documents...JUST NOT IN VIENTIANE.

Let me make another point clear. Filipinos are NOT disqualified from obtaining tourist visas in Vientiane. They just don't like giving out more than 4.

Edited November 2, 2009 by tropo

[tropo]

The Royal Thai Embassy in Vientiane, Lao PDR has 2 principal functions as does any Embassy or Consulate:

1) To assist the Citizens of that country, namely Lao PDR Citizens, in their Consular dealings with the Kingdom of Thailand.

2) To assist citizens of The Kingdom of Thailand while they are in the Lao PDR.

Anything else, including issuance of visas to Citizens of 3rd party countries, is strictly as a convenience and at their sole discretion...

If you have a problem that needs a petition, or documents, or affidavit, etc. fine. Do it in your home country.

You are really misinformed when it comes to the Thai Consulate in Vientiane. Have you been there?

The consulate there has only one purpose. To issue as many tourist visas as possible to everyone without overstepping their authority too much.

They recently built a new consulate to help process visas more efficiently. It's a visa factory and nothing else. They saw the economic benefits of so many people coming there for visas and capitalized on it. They took over from the consulate in Penang which used to be the visa factory in the region. Cambodia was working on being the next factory, but when visas were offered for free this year they reconsidered.

You should do some homework on the history of tourist visas out of Laos, Malaysia and Cambodia before you pop in here with your official information. We can Google for that.

Edited November 2, 2009 by tropo

[jazzbo]

Did you miss the point where I said that if you are not a citizen of Lao PDR they do not owe you at the Vientiane Thai Embassy Consular Services the right to present supporting documents or for that matter jack s--t? ... and Thailand does not recognize common law spouse.

[tropo]

Have you tryed going on the embassy in her native country?

Every time I go to the thai embassy in my country they always ask : What visa do you like?

It's interesting that you should say that, because the Thai Embassy in Manila do ask for a lot of supporting information before issuing a tourist visa, mainly concerned with proof of income. They also want to see a full travel itinerary and hotel bookings etc.

Edited November 2, 2009 by tropo

[tropo]

Did you miss the point where I said that if you are not a citizen of Lao PDR they do not owe you at the Vientiane Thai Embassy Consular Services the right to present supporting documents or for that matter jack s--t? ... and Thailand does not recognize common law spouse.

They have issued her with 3 back-to-back double entry tourist visas this year and last, and shall issue at least 2 or more with a new passport. They circumvent the application process by requiring no support documents, so we'll work within their system to our advantage.

Do you get your information via Google, or are you lawyer in Thailand? Are you sure Thailand does not recognize common law spouse. Could you please present some proof.

Thanks.

Edited November 2, 2009 by tropo

[jazzbo]

For Visa and Extension of Visa purposes, based on all the available documents, Thailand does not recognize Common Law Marriages. What they might do amongst 2 Thai citizens is immaterial. I received my first multiple entry Business Visa from State-level Ministry PR China in 1990 and traveled extensively as agricultural and energy economist. I have been to the Thailand Vientiane consul several times although on a 'B' visa in Thailand I usually only had to cross the bridge.

Whatever they do for you or any other non-Lao citizen at the Vientiane Thai Consul is a courtesy service. I have no schadenfreude hoping your Philippina GF does NOT get a visa. I just question your notion that "I support her" means somehow they should look at the application differently when that has no legal binding even if you DID get the chance to show documents.

[tropo]

For Visa and Extension of Visa purposes, based on all the available documents, Thailand does not recognize Common Law Marriages. What they might do amongst 2 Thai citizens is immaterial. I received my first multiple entry Business Visa from State-level Ministry PR China in 1990 and traveled extensively as agricultural and energy economist. I have been to the Thailand Vientiane consul several times although on a 'B' visa in Thailand I usually only had to cross the bridge.

Whatever they do for you or any other non-Lao citizen at the Vientiane Thai Consul is a courtesy service. I have no schadenfreude hoping your Philippina GF does NOT get a visa. I just question your notion that "I support her" means somehow they should look at the application differently when that has no legal binding even if you DID get the chance to show documents.

I thought I made it quite clear already that there is no way to influence the application process for a tourist visa in Vientiane. I know that now and I knew that before we went there to apply. I have no idea why you continue to harp on that point. Married, common law marriage etc, all irrelevant.

It's hard to believe that you have actually been to the new Vieniane Consulate. If you had, you'd realize that offering tourist visas to various nationalities is not a "courtesy", but their raison d'être. They made the new building especially to streamline the process. To enable them to process as many applications in a day as possible. Filipinos make up a large percentage of the queue every day. If they were mainly concerned with processing applications for Lao citizens, they old building would have been more than adequate.

Excuse me if I don't take the word of some self appointed expert on Thai Immigration Law at face value. I want to see some evidence that Common Law Marriage is not recognised in Thailand. I'm illegible for a retirement visa, so I need to know for sure, not just going by your word.

[My Friend Same]

That's a great idea. Tropo, why not take future visa runs to PI?

[jazzbo]

Excuse me if I don't take the word of some self appointed expert on Thai Immigration Law at face value. I am just offering my opinion or observation like anybody else here unless they specifically state they are a lawyer. Take it or leave it. "Courtesy" just means that the Vientiane Thai Consul are is not obligated to give anyone who is not a Lao-citizen consular services even if that is 500 per day.

As far as marriage goes, it is just a matter of what papers from other countries Thailand will accept for purposes of Visa and Extension of visa. If your home country will issue you the official document that you are 'married' under that country's laws, Thailand very well might accept it. Beyond that, it is hard to disprove the negative and find where Thai law says that they do not recognize common law marriages of other countries.

I think you will also find on this forum I have put myself on the line many times to help people obtain Visas in creative ways with which the moderators do not agree... especially for persons under 50 with considerable assets or those contemplating non-work activities.

Illegible? I won't go there.

[jazzbo]

So in my self-appointed expert morning ramblings I have found the following and NOT on Google:

*Section 1459*. A marriage in foreign country between Thai people or between a Thai people and a foreigner may be effected according to the form prescribed by Thai law or by the law of the country where it takes place.

If the spouses desire to have the marriage registered according to Thai law, the registration shall be effected by a Thai Diplomatic or Consular

Officer. (thanks to SamuiForSale.com)

So the only mention I could in Thai Civil and Commercial Code deals with the marriage of a Thai citizen and an Alien; not 2 aliens.

The following is a translation of the Police Order 777/2551 done by Isaan Lawyers (www.isaanlawyers.com).

2.20 In the case of a family member of an alien who has been permitted temporary stay under clauses (many x.yy's) of this Order (applicable only to parents, spouse, child, adopted child or child of his/her spouse):

Permission will be granted for a period of not more than 1 year at a time.

(1) The alien has obtained a temporary visa (NON-IM);

(2) Proof of family relationship;

(3) In the case of a spouse, the marital relationship shall be de jure (legitimate) and de facto; or

(4) In the case of a child, adopted child or child of his/her spouse, the said person must not be married, must be living with the family, and must be less than 20 years of age; or

(5) In the case of a parent, the said person shall be 50 years of age or over.

So Kuhn Tropo, I would say (3) is your definition of marriage for purposes of Visa or Visa extension; interpretation up to you.

[jazzbo]

So then if one happens to be from New Zealand, where common law marriage is referred to as Civil Union, would a Civil Union Certificate issued by the New Zealand Department of Internal Affairs meet the Thai definition of marriage as in 2.20 (3) above? What the hel_l do I know; I'm just a hack.

[jazzbo]

Civil Unions (Recognised Overseas Relationships) Regulations 2005 by New Zealand Legislature

3 Overseas relationships recognised as civil unions

(1) For the purposes of section 5(b )(i) of the Civil Union Act 2004, a relationship of the type specified in the first column of the following table that is entered into in the place specified in the second column of that table under the authorising legislation specified in the third column of the table is recognised in New Zealand as a civil union.

Type of relationship /Place relationship registered /Authorising legislation

1 Registered partnership (rekisteröity parisuhde) Finland Laki rekisteröidystä parisuhteesta (950/2001)

2 Life partnership (Lebenspartnerschaft) Germany Gesetz über die Eingetragene Lebenspartnerschaft (Lebenspartnerschaftsgesetz—LPartG)

3 Civil partnership United Kingdom Civil Partnership Act 2004

4 Domestic partnership New Jersey, USA Domestic Partnership Act(P.L. 2003 Ch. 246 (Codified as N.J.S.A. 26:8A-1, et seq))

5 Civil union Vermont, USA Act Relating to Civil Unions (15 V.S.A. (chapter 23: Civil Unions, sections 1201–1207))

So as Thailand is not on this list, there does not appear to be a reciprocal agreement on Civil Unions between NZ and the Kingdom.

[phuketrichard]

"So then if one happens to be from New Zealand, where common law marriage is referred to as Civil Union, would a Civil Union Certificate issued by the New Zealand Department of Internal Affairs meet the Thai definition of marriage as in 2.20 (3) above? What the hel_l do I know; I'm just a hack. "

If u wish to obtain a visa for a wife or husband where one holds a extension due to being over 50 they need to show a marriage certificate to the immigration office

Does nz issue a marrigae certifate for a common law marriage? I think if they show the civil union paper that MIGHT qualify but until someone tries it and posts what happened we will never know

[jazzbo]

I think you will find the definition of "de facto" to mean that there is an actual relationship of co-habitation; "de jure" means there is some legal document establishing the marital relationship. Since New Zealand does not list Thailand as a country with a Civil Union recognized under NZ law, it is unlikely that Thailand so recognizes NZ.

As Kuhn PhuketR says, until someone tries you never know... but the Thailand Police Order does stress the word Marital. The New Zealand Civil Union Certificate issued by the NZ Department of Internal Affairs says CIVIL UNION and the word 'marriage' does not appear (as best as I can tell from the website image).