Thai Military Obligation For Dual Citizenship Thais?

[sun_sailor]

My Stepson is 18, and has lived in the USA , with Green Card for 5 years.

He was born in Thailand and has a Thai passport. He qualifies to take the test

for US Citizenship. As a US Citizen, with a Thai Passport as well he would in effect

have dual citizenship. Since he wants to stay living in the USA, is he still required

for obligaion for Thai military service?

He does want to keep his Thai Passport, as he may someday want to live in Thailand,

but not be in the military.

In my reading US laws , I see that entering a foreigh military is seen an act of treason,

and could cause him to lose his US citizenship, should he have to be in the Thai Military

Anyone have a comment about this? Thanks

[submaniac]

Quick answer is that technically, yes, he is potentially subject to Thai military service. It is fairly easy to get out of it (i.e. bribery), even for Thais living in Thailand. However, if he is not listed in a Thai Tabien Bahn, then he will not get called up. Thai officials go by the Tabien Bahn for selecting recruits. If he is not in one, then they don't know about him.

In regards to U.S. citizenship, USA recognizes multicountry citizenship, and realizes that that its citizens may be called up by another country. There is no prohibition where you would lose your citizenship if drafted by the military of another country. I think the prohibition you are thinking about is to become an officer of another country's military, not merely an enlisted draftee.

[Maizefarmer]

My son is in this exact position - grew up in Thailand a dual Thai/USA citizen - now studying in CA. He wants to do military service and has chosen to do it in Thailand. Yes he registered, yes he obliged to respond to call up - but so long as he is studying outside of Thailand he is not commiting any offense not doing his national service (not wthstanding the fact that he willvolunteer in any event when he returns).

As for the conflict with USA rules & regs - that rule is misunderstood - all the fine print elsewhere has to be examined to get this in its proper context, and we have gone to the extent of chasing both this matter, and the above matter up with the USA authroities: in short, the only time Uncle Sam would want to "have words" with one about their "divided loyalty", is if the USA was, or went to war with Thailand, and a dual Thai/USA citizen chose to go to war against the USA, fighting for Thailand. Thats when the legislation would kick in and be used to take action anyone who was USA citizen but fighting for another nation - immaterial of wheather it was Thailand or some other country.

As for dual citizens choosing to do military service in Thailand - in peace time: Uncle Sam has zero objection, none at all. By the same token, Thailand has no objection to dual citizens choosing to undertake military service in the USA if they choose to. It of course doesn' release folk from their Thai service obligations, should they return later to live in Thailand and still be eligable - thats a seperate matter and one would remains eligable as any other Thai male would (subject to age, getting a "get out jail for free card", continued study ect ect ....).

As for bribing ones way out of miltary service - it's an obligation most Thai males have - do your bit like everyone else, but thats personal opinion so take it for what you think it worth.

[sinbin]

However, if he is not listed in a Thai Tabien Bahn, then he will not get called up. Thai officials go by the Tabien Bahn for selecting recruits. If he is not in one, then they don't know about him.

I'm sorry to say but I believe this statement to be not true. After a child is born, I recall that you have 15 days to register it on the Tambien Baan, Failing to do so is an offence. Then come the child attaining the age of 15 they then have to apply for an ID card. To get an ID card they must prove their abode by showing the Tambien Baan. The call up papers will be sent to the address registered.

[Heng]

I wasn't added to my local house registration until I was 21 (after having been born and raised stateside). No one seemed to mind at the amphur.

[submaniac]

Hehe. I actually wasn't registered on the tabien bahn until I was 31. Had no problems. Like I said, if you are not registered on the tabien bahn, they're not going to know you exist.

And as for avoiding Thai military service, I know there is a legal 'bribe' you can pay. I forget exactly the specifics, if you pay a certain amount you can avoid having to draw to see whether you will have to join or not.

[learningcurve]

If the Thai National is living outside of Thailand and then returns to Thailand at under 30 years of age, he could be called up to complete his national service. If he returns to Thailand and he is over 30 years of age he will not be required to complete National Service.

[leftcross]

As for bribing ones way out of miltary service - it's an obligation most Thai males have - do your bit like everyone else, but thats personal opinion so take it for what you think it worth.

so he can get killed by the muslims in the south for absolutely nothing? no thanks.

[allane]

Anyone can get killed by the Muslims for doing absolutely nothing.

A further angle on this question: A former colleague of mine has a foreign father and a Thai mother. He told me that as such, he was not liable for Thai military service, but would have been, if his father had been Thai. There may be a sexist element to the Thai law on this matter.

[rabcbroon]

Half ferang kids are not eligable for Thai military service.

[webfact]

Half ferang kids are not eligable for Thai military service.

could you please elaborate on this 'rule' and give some information?

Thx

[Maizefarmer]

Half farang kids are not eligable for national service? - are you sure of this: Yes, I have read and heard that when it comes to luek krung males and national service, there are options/alternatives ... whatever word one wants to use, but do you know what the legistlation actauly says? Nope - I'm not challenging you - I don't know myself, and as said in my first comment on the subject it was never an option for us, we brought him up to be a patriot and proud of the country of his birth and whatever different folk consider that to ential - we have encouraged him to do his bit and the law aside (whatever it may say), I personally think its a great character building experience, and last but not least, coming out of Thai military service with an officer ranking (as a uni grad he'll be eliagable for officer/junior leadership training) is something that doesn't go un-noticed by HR departments of most Thai companies.

leftcross - regards your comment: "so he can get killed by the muslims in the south for absolutely nothing? no thanks" - thats your personal opinion, and I'll take it for what I think it worth!

[rabcbroon]

Half ferang kids are not eligable for Thai military service.

could you please elaborate on this 'rule' and give some information?

Thx

My son (half Thai) has just been registered on the house book. He is 14. The amphur asked why he had not been registered earlier. My wife said that she did not want our son to be forced - if chosen - to do military service. The amphur said we need not have worried as half ferang kids are [now] not allowed to do service as they were a disruptive influence. I have no reason to disbelieve the amphur. However i have not seen any offical document confirming this.

[rabcbroon]

Half farang kids are not eligable for national service? - are you sure of this: Yes, I have read and heard that when it comes to luek krung males and national service, there are options/alternatives ... whatever word one wants to use, but do you know what the legistlation actauly says? Nope - I'm not challenging you - I don't know myself, and as said in my first comment on the subject it was never an option for us, we brought him up to be a patriot and proud of the country of his birth and whatever different folk consider that to ential - we have encouraged him to do his bit and the law aside (whatever it may say), I personally think its a great character building experience, and last but not least, coming out of Thai military service with an officer ranking (as a uni grad he'll be eliagable for officer/junior leadership training) is something that doesn't go un-noticed by HR departments of most Thai companies.

leftcross - regards your comment: "so he can get killed by the muslims in the south for absolutely nothing? no thanks" - thats your personal opinion, and I'll take it for what I think it worth!

Why would one be proud of a country. What does that actually mean?

[webfact]

Half ferang kids are not eligable for Thai military service.

could you please elaborate on this 'rule' and give some information?

Thx

My son (half Thai) has just been registered on the house book. He is 14. The amphur asked why he had not been registered earlier. My wife said that she did not want our son to be forced - if chosen - to do military service. The amphur said we need not have worried as half ferang kids are [now] not allowed to do service as they were a disruptive influence. I have no reason to disbelieve the amphur. However i have not seen any offical document confirming this.

That sounds quite interesting. If you come along such document please PM me and/or post that subject as a new topic.

[rabcbroon]

Half ferang kids are not eligable for Thai military service.

could you please elaborate on this 'rule' and give some information?

Thx

My son (half Thai) has just been registered on the house book. He is 14. The amphur asked why he had not been registered earlier. My wife said that she did not want our son to be forced - if chosen - to do military service. The amphur said we need not have worried as half ferang kids are [now] not allowed to do service as they were a disruptive influence. I have no reason to disbelieve the amphur. However i have not seen any offical document confirming this.

That sounds quite interesting. If you come along such document please PM me and/or post that subject as a new topic.

Sure thing.

PS I wasn't surprized when the amphur said this to my wife as I had heard this somewhere before, and this went someway to confirm. Can't think where i read or heard this though.

[Mosha]

I wonder if the rule to Krueng Thai apply if they have been raised without a Farang parent Influence? I know of two in my locality.

[samran]

Having read through the rules from beginning to end, as I have dual Thai/Australian citizenship there is certainly no discrimination based on ethnicity. ''Full' Thai, 'half' Thai or 100% Anglo with a Thai passport, you are liable. Full stop. The only men who don't have to go through the conscription process are naturalised Thai males.

Having said that, the sasadee would have lots of latitude in the matter - as the rules provide for a plethora of get out of jail cards (too short, too light, bad fitness, etc), so if it has been mentioned at one particular recruting station, then perhaps it is an informal 'rule' which applies in that particular area. Don't take it as gospel nation wide. I know one 100% farang guy who was born in Thailand in the 1970's who has Thai nationality. He had to go through the proces but was let off when it was proven he didn't read or write Thai. So there is a bit of latitude.

As others have said, staying off the tabieen baan helps, but that mainly helps those who are born outside of the country (like Heng and myself) and who never get on it in the first place (given it is impossible to unless you move back permanently). The only other way I know to get off a particular tabieen baan is to have the 'chao baan' (head of the household) kick you off, where you would be transferred to the central database.

Like Heng, I never got on my tabieen baan (intentionally) until I was 29 (in the year I was turning 30) which officially put me off the radar for military conscription. Having said that, I still had to head down and get my exemption letter which stated I was too old to be selected. That letter I didn't need for myself per se. but it was one of the documents I needed for my NZ wife to apply for Thai citizenship, so I got it.

As others have said, higher education keeps you out of reach of the conscription officer till you of course graduate. As does completing 3 years worth of cadets during high school.

University graduates can volunteer to do their service (before being conscripted) and will only have to serve 6 months. A few people I have met have taken up this option as they or their families saw some benefit having some military service....mainly to avoid controversy later in life should the family come under public scrutiny (ie went into politics, became heads of large well known company's).

However, if they don't volunteer and pick the wrong coloured ball in the conscription lottery, then they are liable to serve the full two years.

Someone mentioned earlier about doing military service overseas. The rules do state that foreign military service - of a comparable level - does count towards any potential reduction in obligation in Thailand. However, this is what the rules say, and I have no idea if they actually have a process where you could compare 2 years of British/Australian SAS training with 2 years in the Thai reserves. Again, probably comes down to a case by case basis.

Also remember that all Thai males under 45, even if they have been released from any active duty obligations are still on the call up book. Not that it means much but if Thailand was invaded by China, Burma, Laos, Cambodia and Malaysia all at once, you'd stand a chance of being called up. Otherwise it is just a formality. I'm personally a level 2, class 2 'reserve' force (says so on my conscription release form) to that puts me waaaaaay down the list. Lucky me.

[donx]

For what it is worth, here is my experience on the matter. My son was born in the US. He has both US and Thai citizenship. This year when we renewed his Thai passport (he was 8 years old at the time), we were told by the embassy employee that processed the passports that when my son turns 17, he will have to go to the embassy and do something regarding picking a ball from a bin. This leads me to believe that Thailand is no longer only looking at the tabieen baan since my son is not on any tabieen baan. My son has a Thai birth certificate and a Thai passport, but he isn't on any tabieen baan and he doesn't have a Thai ID card.

We kept him off the tabieen baan specifically to avoid having to deal with the military service issue, but the embassy employee told us that my son will have to appear before the embassy or he will be in violation of Thai law. What would be the consequences if he didn't appear? I have no idea. The embassy employee did say at this time, it would be unlikely that my son would be required to join the military once he is 17. Besides, I'm sure my son will be attending university studies which at a minimum would delay any need for him to serve right away.

[Maizefarmer]

Half farang kids are not eligable for national service? - are you sure of this: Yes, I have read and heard that when it comes to luek krung males and national service, there are options/alternatives ... whatever word one wants to use, but do you know what the legistlation actauly says? Nope - I'm not challenging you - I don't know myself, and as said in my first comment on the subject it was never an option for us, we brought him up to be a patriot and proud of the country of his birth and whatever different folk consider that to ential - we have encouraged him to do his bit and the law aside (whatever it may say), I personally think its a great character building experience, and last but not least, coming out of Thai military service with an officer ranking (as a uni grad he'll be eliagable for officer/junior leadership training) is something that doesn't go un-noticed by HR departments of most Thai companies.

leftcross - regards your comment: "so he can get killed by the muslims in the south for absolutely nothing? no thanks" - thats your personal opinion, and I'll take it for what I think it worth!

Why would one be proud of a country. What does that actually mean?

.... why would one be proud of their national heritage ........ why?? - you aren't serious, leftcross?

[TerryLH]

"...when my son turns 17, he will have to go to the embassy and do something regarding picking a ball from a bin."

I don't think 17 is the age they draw for conscription. A lot of kids are still in high school then.

[sun_sailor]

"...when my son turns 17, he will have to go to the embassy and do something regarding picking a ball from a bin."

I don't think 17 is the age they draw for conscription. A lot of kids are still in high school then.

I Understand that the registration is at 17 or 18 twhen hy are required to report, and the lottery takes place when they turn 20,

and the obligation stays untill age 30.

[donx]

"...when my son turns 17, he will have to go to the embassy and do something regarding picking a ball from a bin."

I don't think 17 is the age they draw for conscription. A lot of kids are still in high school then.

I Understand that the registration is at 17 or 18 twhen hy are required to report, and the lottery takes place when they turn 20,

and the obligation stays untill age 30.

Thanks sun_sailor. That would explain why they want us to show up with our son when he turns 17.

[Heng]

Interesting info. Like everything else, policies apparently may have changed.

[DaruneeCatton]

Thanks Samran. I asked this same question re my Thai/Aussie son a few years ago and you gave the same advice to me. Your response makes perfect sense to me . I couldn't get a straight answer from the Thai Consulate here in Brisbane, so it was good to have this matter clarified by somebody with firsthand experience. Sounds like you are one of the few people on this forum qualified to give advice in this area. Regarding the OPs concern about his country USA, viewing miltary service in another country as treason: he seems to forget that with dual citizenship comes the responsibility to obey/or "get around" if you can the laws of both countries. Re conscriptees fighting Muslims in the South, this is reserved for special forces and regulars. Unless of course your spouse is from the three problem Southern areas, then your son as a conscriptee might get picked off by a sniper while painting rocks or gardening at the army base or having a drink at karaoke after work. About the same risk as a teacher or other government worker in the South who are of course at a real risk of being killed.

Having read through the rules from beginning to end, as I have dual Thai/Australian citizenship there is certainly no discrimination based on ethnicity. ''Full' Thai, 'half' Thai or 100% Anglo with a Thai passport, you are liable. Full stop. The only men who don't have to go through the conscription process are naturalised Thai males.

Having said that, the sasadee would have lots of latitude in the matter - as the rules provide for a plethora of get out of jail cards (too short, too light, bad fitness, etc), so if it has been mentioned at one particular recruting station, then perhaps it is an informal 'rule' which applies in that particular area. Don't take it as gospel nation wide. I know one 100% farang guy who was born in Thailand in the 1970's who has Thai nationality. He had to go through the proces but was let off when it was proven he didn't read or write Thai. So there is a bit of latitude.

As others have said, staying off the tabieen baan helps, but that mainly helps those who are born outside of the country (like Heng and myself) and who never get on it in the first place (given it is impossible to unless you move back permanently). The only other way I know to get off a particular tabieen baan is to have the 'chao baan' (head of the household) kick you off, where you would be transferred to the central database.

Like Heng, I never got on my tabieen baan (intentionally) until I was 29 (in the year I was turning 30) which officially put me off the radar for military conscription. Having said that, I still had to head down and get my exemption letter which stated I was too old to be selected. That letter I didn't need for myself per se. but it was one of the documents I needed for my NZ wife to apply for Thai citizenship, so I got it.

As others have said, higher education keeps you out of reach of the conscription officer till you of course graduate. As does completing 3 years worth of cadets during high school.

University graduates can volunteer to do their service (before being conscripted) and will only have to serve 6 months. A few people I have met have taken up this option as they or their families saw some benefit having some military service....mainly to avoid controversy later in life should the family come under public scrutiny (ie went into politics, became heads of large well known company's).

However, if they don't volunteer and pick the wrong coloured ball in the conscription lottery, then they are liable to serve the full two years.

Someone mentioned earlier about doing military service overseas. The rules do state that foreign military service - of a comparable level - does count towards any potential reduction in obligation in Thailand. However, this is what the rules say, and I have no idea if they actually have a process where you could compare 2 years of British/Australian SAS training with 2 years in the Thai reserves. Again, probably comes down to a case by case basis.

Also remember that all Thai males under 45, even if they have been released from any active duty obligations are still on the call up book. Not that it means much but if Thailand was invaded by China, Burma, Laos, Cambodia and Malaysia all at once, you'd stand a chance of being called up. Otherwise it is just a formality. I'm personally a level 2, class 2 'reserve' force (says so on my conscription release form) to that puts me waaaaaay down the list. Lucky me.