1. The Federal Government is the largest employer in the US with some 2.7 million employees.

http://federaljobs.net/

2. The US Military has 1.5 million active duty members.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_armed_forces

3. Wal-Mart is the largest non-governmental employer with 1.1 million.

http://ask.yahoo.com/20040802.html

4. According to recent statements coming from the Messiah, Obama, health care expenses are the leading cause of bankruptcies.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005...ptcy_study.html

5. This link will give a list of the AFL-CIO member organizations. Note the preponderance of Federal government unions.

http://www.aflcio.org/aboutus/unions/

6. This link provides a listing of US Military contractors. I don't want to waste my time looking up which companies are union vice non-union but, being somewhat familiar with the list, I don't see any that would be considered "under-educated".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unite...nse_contractors

7. The US Military is an all volunteer force. They have only recently decided to permit recruits with less than a high school or GED equivalency degree. They are generally considered higher educated than the US Post Office or the UAW, as an example.

Boy you got that right.... Did you know that quite a few years ago, The military had to dummy down all the ground troops weapons manuals to 10th grade high school comprehension levels? Maybe lower by now

That alone should put the fear into occupied countries.

On the surface it does sound scary. On the other hand, we are talking about "ground troops weapons". The special skills these men need to do their jobs well doesn't include reading at a college freshman level. Look at it another way, I wonder how many Harvard or Oxford graduates have what it takes to patrol the streets in a city or village in Iraq or Afghanistan with hostiles lurking in the shadows?

On the surface it does sound scary. On the other hand, we are talking about "ground troops weapons". The special skills these men need to do their jobs well doesn't include reading at a college freshman level. Look at it another way, I wonder how many Harvard or Oxford graduates have what it takes to patrol the streets in a city or village in Iraq or Afghanistan with hostiles lurking in the shadows?

Or to put it yet another way....have a bunch of 10th graders on the decision end of weapons that can clear paths. Yet have trouble with the operating manuals.

As for Harvard or Oxford grads patrolling streets I agree they would probably not do well...Then again they can probably think for themselves & know why it is probably a wrongful place to be.

If you turn it all around though & say America is invaded/occupied by a bunch of 10th graders with weapons...well that would be a horse of a different color or colour if your not American. & the grads would probably do fine;)

Or to put it yet another way....have a bunch of 10th graders on the decision end of weapons that can clear paths. Yet have trouble with the operating manuals.

As for Harvard or Oxford grads patrolling streets I agree they would probably not do well...Then again they can probably think for themselves & know why it is probably a wrongful place to be.

If you turn it all around though & say America is invaded/occupied by a bunch of 10th graders with weapons...well that would be a horse of a different color or colour if your not American. & the grads would probably do fine;)

I went into the US Army when the draft was in place. Even then, with the considerably lower standards, nobody had any trouble field stripping a weapon, with or without a manual.

It is true you won't find any Harvard or Oxford graduates in the US Military. It is too close to the sharp end of the spear for most of them. Putting it yet another way, I don't know many of those blighted high school graduates that would even want a Harvard graduate watching their backs.

You have no idea just how complex the current day military is. Merely operating some of the systems takes months of formal education and many more months of experience. Being a Technician is considerably more complex.

Check out this site for just one weapons system currently in use by the US Navy:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...stems/aegis.htm

How about this link for future combat systems of the US Army?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys.../ground/fcs.htm

You really need to do a little research on today's military. It is a great deal more complicated than you might think.

You really need to do a little research on today's military. It is a great deal more complicated than you might think.

Since you quoted me I suppose your directing this to me....

Trust me you have no idea of my knowledge, back ground or capabilities.

You really need to do a little research on today's military. It is a great deal more complicated than you might think.

Since you quoted me I suppose your directing this to me....

Trust me you have no idea of my knowledge, back ground or capabilities.

That statement is true and not arguable.

I can only base my opinion on your posts. Thus, my post in response.

You really need to do a little research on today's military. It is a great deal more complicated than you might think.

Since you quoted me I suppose your directing this to me....

Trust me you have no idea of my knowledge, back ground or capabilities.

That statement is true and not arguable.

I can only base my opinion on your posts. Thus, my post in response.

My posts here reflect little of my past or present.

I did not need to be drafted as you did it was a given. I attended military school & then OCS

many many years ago.

But what does that have to do with posts here?

You assume too much to suggest something is complex & needs research by someone who you do not know is

what I am trying to point out.

Or to put it yet another way....have a bunch of 10th graders on the decision end of weapons that can clear paths. Yet have trouble with the operating manuals.

As for Harvard or Oxford grads patrolling streets I agree they would probably not do well...Then again they can probably think for themselves & know why it is probably a wrongful place to be.

If you turn it all around though & say America is invaded/occupied by a bunch of 10th graders with weapons...well that would be a horse of a different color or colour if your not American. & the grads would probably do fine;)

You're confusing reading level with age & maturity. 10th graders are 14-15 years old. Our highly trained soldiers - even if they can only read at a 10th grade level - are older and more mature than a 10th grader. Well, the "mature" probably doesn't hold true 100% of the time.

I didn't say I was drafted. I said when I went into the Army, the draft was in place.

As it turns out, you know little about my background as well.

Perhaps many of us assume too much from time to time.

I didn't say I was drafted. I said when I went into the Army, the draft was in place.

As it turns out, you know little about my background as well.

Perhaps many of us assume too much from time to time.

I see...agreed then we have assumed

But back to the basic misconception.

When I was talking about weapons manuals being dummied down to 10th grade level of reading comprehension.

I was not speaking of things as simple as field stripping a side arm or long arm.

I was instead pointing out that the level of weaponry ( other than side arms ) as complex as they are & the same as you pointed out...should not even be allowed to folks who have a reading comprehension of 10th grade or less.

But such is the current crop. Yet that does not stop our govt from sending them to occupy & make decisions that involve others lives.

Which is part of the reason for the 1 to 1 ratio of blackwater mercenaries in the current occupations.

Well that & being able to operate outside of the rules

When I was talking about weapons manuals being dummied down to 10th grade level of reading comprehension.

I was not speaking of things as simple as field stripping a side arm or long arm.

I was instead pointing out that the level of weaponry ( other than side arms ) as complex as they are & the same as you pointed out...should not even be allowed to folks who have a reading comprehension of 10th grade or less.

I still don't see the importance of reading comprehension skills to being competent in using and operating a weapon or even a machine. Just because a person reads at a 10th grade level doesn't make them incompetent morons. I don't mean to insult any professions here but I wonder what the average reading level is of car mechanics? electricians? heavy equipment operators?

Making the manuals less complicated and easier to understand is a wise move anyway. Manuals are not a literary exercise. They should be easy to understand. I'm sure many here don't bother reading instructions for a new phone, TV, etc. In part because we are sure we can figure it out (not recommended with weaponry ) and in part because they can be hard to understand in the first place.

When I was talking about weapons manuals being dummied down to 10th grade level of reading comprehension.

I was not speaking of things as simple as field stripping a side arm or long arm.

I was instead pointing out that the level of weaponry ( other than side arms ) as complex as they are & the same as you pointed out...should not even be allowed to folks who have a reading comprehension of 10th grade or less.

I still don't see the importance of reading comprehension skills to being competent in using and operating a weapon or even a machine. Just because a person reads at a 10th grade level doesn't make them incompetent morons. I don't mean to insult any professions here but I wonder what the average reading level is of car mechanics? electricians? heavy equipment operators?

Making the manuals less complicated and easier to understand is a wise move anyway. Manuals are not a literary exercise. They should be easy to understand. I'm sure many here don't bother reading instructions for a new phone, TV, etc. In part because we are sure we can figure it out (not recommended with weaponry ) and in part because they can be hard to understand in the first place.

i'll agree to that, some of the stuff my wife brings home to be assembled often makes me feel dumber than a 5th grader. anyway just to get this back on track a bit i guess i was correct in saying that the majority of the bk filings today are simple chapter 11 type which is designed to write off spacific debts i.e. medical bill, home loans etc. At the end of the day with the bulk of the population in retirement or very close to it how can there be a middle?

[quote name='flying' date='2009-12-19 15:36:24' post='3213328'

I see...agreed then we have assumed

But back to the basic misconception.

When I was talking about weapons manuals being dummied down to 10th grade level of reading comprehension.

I was not speaking of things as simple as field stripping a side arm or long arm.

I was instead pointing out that the level of weaponry ( other than side arms ) as complex as they are & the same as you pointed out...should not even be allowed to folks who have a reading comprehension of 10th grade or less.

But such is the current crop. Yet that does not stop our govt from sending them to occupy & make decisions that involve others lives.

Which is part of the reason for the 1 to 1 ratio of blackwater mercenaries in the current occupations.

Well that & being able to operate outside of the rules

As much as I hate to do this, I must respectfully disagree with your hypothesis that somebody with a 10th grade reading level should not be trusted with weapons, other than side arms, as you specify.

I have, for the better part of the last 20 years been managing a defense contract in the Middle East. The contract called for us to provide skilled personnel in a number of areas, including heavy weapons systems maintenance, management, curriculum and instructor personnel and electronics maintenance. The vast majority of personnel we supplied were retired US Military, including both highly ranked officers and enlisted men. Everybody was required to have either a high school degree or GED equivalency certificate and many were required to have Bachelors and even advanced degrees. We ran the gamut from a few E-4's to quite a few O-6's over the years, and everything in between.

The primary purpose of this post is to let you know I had many employees that could fix or repair any sort of electronic or mechanical malfunction of a weapons system but couldn't write a letter most people would understand. They were rough around the edges but they could be trusted to do their jobs and my customer was happy to have them there, regardless of their reading skills. They would have had trouble reading Dicken's "A Tale of Two Cities" but could fairly scan through a complicated schematic and solve problems.

I also had a few people that could write exceedingly well but didn't have the brains to come in out of the rain. I had one employee with a Masters in Library Science that had to be re-trained after a long weekend. In addition, I finally stopped presenting resumes of candidates with a PhD. My customer tried them and found them all lacking in the common sense department.

The brightest and the best employees I had were Mustangs, having first entered the military as an enlisted man and then transitioning, through OCS, into an Officer and a gentleman. They seemed to understand the situations better than most others when it came to decision making time.

My final point is, reading skills are fine to have but I will take somebody with common sense over a scholar anyday in the military environment.

As much as I hate to do this, I must respectfully disagree with your hypothesis that somebody with a 10th grade reading level should not be trusted with weapons, other than side arms, as you specify.

The primary purpose of this post is to let you know I had many employees that could fix or repair any sort of electronic or mechanical malfunction of a weapons system but couldn't write a letter most people would understand.

My final point is, reading skills are fine to have but I will take somebody with common sense over a scholar any day in the military environment.

I understand & agree, we will respectfully disagree.

But I would not group/compare allowing 10th grade level comprehension of high power weapon systems capable of serious destruction, to repairing a machine as both you & koheesti have mentioned.

Yes of course I too value common or street sense. But we are talking about minimum levels of acceptance in a trade that decides in a split second whether humans live or die. Not repair of machines that if repaired badly can be repaired by someone else.

Or at its worst harm the operator alone. A big difference than say wiping out a whole village.

Sorry for drifting off topic

So please forgive me but can I ask what the US military is doing all around the world?

What is their purpose and what does it have to do with the middle class?

Sorry I have a bit of a slow mind.....

the US military employees the majority of people in the USA, add sub contracts and it's related consumption, the military is the driving force of the middle class income hence one of the reasons in the past people would say war was good for the economy. BTW the military offers much more than simple death and distruction or rape and pilage as many of the doves would have us all believe. The fact is research and development produces many things that are later used in every day life such as Lexan the very light weight durable plastic used in the common vacuum cleaner but first used in helicopter bubbles and in NASA.

On the surface it does sound scary. On the other hand, we are talking about "ground troops weapons". The special skills these men need to do their jobs well doesn't include reading at a college freshman level. Look at it another way, I wonder how many Harvard or Oxford graduates have what it takes to patrol the streets in a city or village in Iraq or Afghanistan with hostiles lurking in the shadows?

Or to put it yet another way....have a bunch of 10th graders on the decision end of weapons that can clear paths. Yet have trouble with the operating manuals.

As for Harvard or Oxford grads patrolling streets I agree they would probably not do well...Then again they can probably think for themselves & know why it is probably a wrongful place to be.

If you turn it all around though & say America is invaded/occupied by a bunch of 10th graders with weapons...well that would be a horse of a different color or colour if your not American. & the grads would probably do fine;)

Cannon fodder doesn't have to be brainy. If they had brains, they probably wouldn't choose to be grunts.

Cannon fodder doesn't have to be brainy. If they had brains, they probably wouldn't choose to be grunts.

Tis true

Back to America without a middle class......

We lost another 7 banks yesterday bringing the total to 140 so far this year.

Seven U.S. Banks Are Seized, Raising Year’s Failure Toll to 140

i guess i am taking my attitude towards all these failures the same way the thais did in 97 when the asian melt down occurred i.e. as long as it is not me i am ok. The best thing that imf did back then was to get the banks to write off bad debt and begin to forclose on the bad loans. IMO if Obama would simply let the systems that are in place work then the economy and the working people will get back on track but as long as he continues to protect his labor unions and entitlement gang, add more spending for govt sponsored work programs and bankrupt the country with trillion dollar programs, i am affraid that the road to recovery will be long and steep.

I have not seen anyone in power pointing at the road to recovery other then spending/borrowing more and more and more...............

I believe the middle class will become the new poor just like Yoshi in Japan.

Sorry do not have the link anymore that I posted in the financial, here's another one:

As much as I hate to do this, I must respectfully disagree with your hypothesis that somebody with a 10th grade reading level should not be trusted with weapons, other than side arms, as you specify.

The primary purpose of this post is to let you know I had many employees that could fix or repair any sort of electronic or mechanical malfunction of a weapons system but couldn't write a letter most people would understand.

My final point is, reading skills are fine to have but I will take somebody with common sense over a scholar any day in the military environment.

I understand & agree, we will respectfully disagree.

But I would not group/compare allowing 10th grade level comprehension of high power weapon systems capable of serious destruction, to repairing a machine as both you & koheesti have mentioned.

Yes of course I too value common or street sense. But we are talking about minimum levels of acceptance in a trade that decides in a split second whether humans live or die. Not repair of machines that if repaired badly can be repaired by someone else.

Or at its worst harm the operator alone. A big difference than say wiping out a whole village.

We're talking about a 10th grade level of reading comprehension, NOT comprehension of weapon systems. You don't need to be able to read to understand how to use a weapon or when to use it. Just because someone comprehends what they read at a 10th grade level doesn't mean they are incapable of thinking or making judgments at a higher level.

As for the recovery & middle class in America, I agree with macman that the politicians should keep their hands of it as much as possible. They don't have such a great track record for running anything and I trust bankers & business leaders more than politicians & lawyers (often one and the same).

So Kohee, what is the solution?

What would you do if you were in charge ?

So Kohee, what is the solution?

What would you do if you were in charge ?

Include Reading Comp classes in boot camp.

We're talking about a 10th grade level of reading comprehension, NOT comprehension of weapon systems. You don't need to be able to read to understand how to use a weapon or when to use it. Just because someone comprehends what they read at a 10th grade level doesn't mean they are incapable of thinking or making judgments at a higher level.

As for the recovery & middle class in America, I agree with macman that the politicians should keep their hands of it as much as possible. They don't have such a great track record for running anything and I trust bankers & business leaders more than politicians & lawyers (often one and the same).

Lordy we are not talking about the fact they cannot read.

They cannot comprehend what they read unless it is dummied down to a 10th grade level.

Also yes we ARE talking about the manuals for the weapon systems. So no they cannot reliably use the weapon if they do not understand how to reliably operate it.

Yes perhaps they can pray & spray any weapon by pulling the trigger.

But the gist is ...if they cannot comprehend the manual to operate the weapon then they have no business on the weapon.

It is not as you replied to Alex either.

Reading comprehension class? They have a brain by now or they dont.

War were collateral damages are off the scale is not school.

Do you have children? Im sure you have or had parents....How would you feel if they were collateral damage?

It is not as you replied to Alex either.

Reading comprehension class? They have a brain by now or they dont.

Just because someone 19-20 years old has a 10th grade level that doesn't mean they can't improve it. There are Adult Education classes where adults are taught to read. I'm guessing they have brains - at least the ones who do end up reading.

Reading Comprehension is also a part of grad school entrance exams such as GRE & GMAT. Students do study on how to do better on these sections. They improve their reading comprehension.

btw - I think Alex might have been asking about how to fix the financial situation in the world. I chose the easier answer. I have no idea how to fix it other than what I already said, keep gov't away from it where we can.

War were collateral damages are off the scale is not school.

Do you have children? Im sure you have or had parents....How would you feel if they were collateral damage?

I would be much more pissed off at the local ex-Baathists, or foreign fighters, or Taliban, or al Qaeda who decided to set up position right next to the school my kids attended or the mosque where my family worshiped for the sole purpose of having them get killed so they could be used as propaganda on Al Jazeera or by the always helpful "useful idiots" in the West. Because they know the way to defeat the West is through public opinion at home since they can't do it by actual fighting.

Just because someone 19-20 years old has a 10th grade level that doesn't mean they can't improve it. There are Adult Education classes where adults are taught to read. I'm guessing they have brains - at least the ones who do end up reading.

Reading Comprehension is also a part of grad school entrance exams such as GRE & GMAT. Students do study on how to do better on these sections. They improve their reading comprehension.

Yes but what I meant was war zones are not schools. Students make too many mistakes.

Learn & be able before hand.

In other words clear your own vision before you attempt to remove the mote from another's eye less you blind him in the process.

I would be much more pissed off at the local ex-Baathists, or foreign fighters, or Taliban, or al Qaeda who decided to set up position right next to the school my kids attended or the mosque where my family worshiped for the sole purpose of having them get killed so they could be used as propaganda on Al Jazeera or by the always helpful "useful idiots" in the West. Because they know the way to defeat the West is through public opinion at home since they can't do it by actual fighting.

yes anyone with a conscience would not like war fare that uses the innocent as a shield but that is not much different than my question to you about collateral damage that involved a family member of yours instead of just a digit on a website.

How different was it that innocents were in villages that were destroyed while chasing a handful that many times were no longer even present?

How is that different? Are you saying if the Taliban sets up next to a school full of kids...Then the school is nothing more than collateral damage? It was the taliban who put them in harms way....yes but in the end who levels the school?

Its all bad & trust me I have no side but it is the US military that is in someone else's house. Hence the term Occupation

i found these bokks on the suggested reading list for 16 yr olds.

Gore, Albert. AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH: THE CRISIS OF GLOBAL WARMING. Gore examines the climate crisis of the planet, describes what world governments are doing, and offers reasons for serious consideration of the problems. (NF)

Austen, Jane. PRIDE AND PREJUDICE. In this comedy of manners, Elizabeth Bennet, a spirited heroine, doesn’t always agree with her opinionated beau, Mr. Darcy. (F)

Caputo, Philip. 10,000 DAYS OF THUNDER: A HISTORY OF THE VIETNAM WAR. This is a straightforward overview with pictures of the Vietnam War. (NF)

Fleischman, John. PHINEAS GAGE. This is the gruesome, true account of an accident that happened to a railroad foreman in Vermont in 1848. A 13-pound iron rod shot through his brain. He survived but became a textbook case in brain science. (NF)

Cooper, Michael L. FIGHTING FOR HONOR. This book examines the history of Japanese Americans and their mass relocation to internment camps during WWII. (NF)

Janeczko, Paul B. TOP SECRET: HANDBOOK OF CODES, CIPHERS, AND SECRET WRITING Included in this guide to secret writing are explanations of how different codes came to be and why they were needed, including historical examples. (NF)

Woodford, Chris. COOL STUFF AND HOW IT WORKS. Computer-generated images explain how many devices and processes of modern technology work, covering such inventions as HDTV, game consoles, robot cars, helicopters, space probes, oil rigs, mass dampers, biometric id’s, and tsunami alert systems. (NF)

looks like 16 yr old can comprehend a fair bit of info. btw where do ther taliban fighters come from?

I don't know about Al Gore's book, but his movie by the same name, "An Inconvenient Truth", can only be shown in UK schools only after his nine (9) known untruths are pointed out to the attendant classrooms.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7037671.stm

The number of (9) known untruths has grown by a few in the past month.

It's a suggested reading list only, which seems to have contained other books.

16 year olds are required to question what they read, their political beliefs have began to form, and with a few notable exceptions those beliefs will mirror those of their mother and father.

Many university students, only a year or two older pass through the hands of radical lecturers and professors and come away none the worse for the experience. Australian Universities have a Socialist club and a Conservative club and conduct regular fiery debates, it's all part of the learning experience.

To demand that your children learn nothing of global warming, the Vietnam war, the WW2 American campaign that defeated the Japanese in the Pacific or the American constitution.... is a recipe for disaster. We don't have to agree with what we learn, but questioning what we are taught in a rational and logical manner is important.