Ed Visa Crackdown

[yabaaaa]

Then of course the attendance record should be checked. But the language "test" they do..what are they basing that one? Are they drawing up various levels of testing depending on how many months/years a person has had a ed visa for? Some people understand Thai but have trouble conversing, some people can converse well depending on the topic/subject matter and vocab they have learnt. There are so many variables it seems a ridiculous concept. If they want to check up on those on an Ed visa, seems fair enough to me, but the idea of a test and those who judge you if its not regulated in some way seems a bit stupid. Each school has different methods, vocabulary etc. Who draws up the "test" and how is it marked/measured?

I agree that the testing would need to be planned, designed, and administered carefully. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses, and learning Thai as a 2nd (or 3rd, etc) language is much more difficult for some than others. Personally, I attended a Thai class twice a week for 6 months - not for an ED visa, just for "fun." I worked hard, participated in class, and did my homework. After the 6 months, I still had much weaker Thai than some friends who just "picked it up" through daily living. Learning additional languages is just not one of my strengths. As others have said, attendance seems to be a more fair way to check the legitimacy of an ED visa. One guy could walk into immigration and be able to converse semi-fluently in Thai because he spends all his time with bar girls and various Thai girlfriends instead of going to class. Is he more deserving of an ED visa than someone who actually goes to class and puts in the classtime? No, not in my opinion. Of course, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to monitor all these ED visas, I just don't think an on-the-spot, informal conversational test is the best monitoring system.

I just love the people who say we should all learn Thai and its not so difficult, yeah right i cant even remember what I had for breakfast most days, my Wife must tell me words a million times before I remember them and then I get them confused

[crocodilexp]

Let's get the traditional ThaiVisa greeting out of the way. ED visa people are not in my visa category, so I rejoice at any misery and problems that they may encounter from immigration. May everybody who's not me be kicked out of the country swiftly, as they deserve it.

In an ideal world, rule changes should be announced clearly and enforced fairly. It is fine to have a test as a condition for an ED visa extension, but it's unfair to surprise people when they're unprepared for it.

Obviously, some schools advertise with the main point being the visa ("for 10 years"), and the learning part only means to an end. No wonder some people buy it with this in mind. They're not necessarily bad people, folks.

In Thailand, "gaming the system" is not exactly unheard of or particularly reprehensible -- just ask any hi-so Thai. Germany or Sweeden it is not.

[farangpattaya]

And there is another example of a frustrated Immigration Officer who didn't get enough tea money.

The supervision on the legitimate (ED)-courses lies with the Thai Ministry of Education.

THEY issue documents for initial applications of ED-visa's and their extensions.

The only thing the Immigration has to do, is check the documents and extent the visa. There is no way that an Immigration Office is going to test ED-visa holders on their improvements.

They can ask for documents proving a certain improvement, but that's basically up to the TMoE.

[simro]

I had a 3 month visa for Diving.

but probably as many as 90% are

[MacWalen]

It is just today's news so I have to check it but as one student reported they asked him a few questions and they were not satisfied with his knowledge and he got a warning that if he does not improve they may not extend his visa next time. If I hear more cases I will report, so far this is the only one I know of.

Also I would not call it a crackdown on ED visas, that is much too exaggerated. It was a simple matter of verification. We also do not know what questions were asked.

I would imagine something like:

1. What is your name?

2. Where do you learn Thai?

3. What days do you attend your course?

4. Count for me from 1 to 10.

5. What time is it now?

6. What day is today?

7. How long have you been in Thailand?

8. Why do you learn Thai?

No idea, I will learn more about it and report back. These would be easy questions, you can learn it. No Walen student who attends school would have any problems at all.

Walen School - Teaching much faster!

www.thaiwalen.com

Edited December 17, 2009 by macwalen

[Credo]

It would seem reasonable that someone applying for an extension to learn a language should have some functional use of the language. The language schools will now have a new lesson to teach....."How to talk to an Immigration Official."

If they go the formal testing route, I think everyone should know that you've got some serious learning to do. Thais take testing seriously. It will also cost you.

On the other hand, I am sure people will find out which officials like purple paper and which ones like grey.

[LivinLOS]

Regarding our advertising, it is true that we can assist with ED visas for 10 years.

See its statements like that, which lose credibility..

You can see deep into the future.. You know exactly what the Thai immigration system will allow 10 years from now..

[LivinLOS]

here's a bit of Thai to get them started:

som nam na

A friend of mine has an ED-visa for studying martial arts. I wonder if immigration will ask him to demonstrate his abilities as well.

Back in the west you can get an ED for 'studying Thai culture' 'scuba diving' or pretty much anything else you dream up to put in the space.. But thats not the extensions tho.

[MacWalen]

It would seem reasonable that someone applying for an extension to learn a language should have some functional use of the language. The language schools will now have a new lesson to teach....."How to talk to an Immigration Official."

If they go the formal testing route, I think everyone should know that you've got some serious learning to do. Thais take testing seriously. It will also cost you.

On the other hand, I am sure people will find out which officials like purple paper and which ones like grey.

Insinuating corruption is not right, please avoid making this kind of comments about the Thai immigration.

[Phil Conners]

And there is another example of a frustrated Immigration Officer who didn't get enough tea money.

The supervision on the legitimate (ED)-courses lies with the Thai Ministry of Education.

THEY issue documents for initial applications of ED-visa's and their extensions.

The only thing the Immigration has to do, is check the documents and extent the visa. There is no way that an Immigration Office is going to test ED-visa holders on their improvements.

They can ask for documents proving a certain improvement, but that's basically up to the TMoE.

If you have been here for any length of time you will know Immigration can and will do anything they like. I'd like to see anyone trying to fight their decision.

Having said that, I've never, in all the years I've been here, had to pay tea money to have my visa extended.

[MacWalen]

Regarding our advertising, it is true that we can assist with ED visas for 10 years.

See its statements like that, which lose credibility..

You can see deep into the future.. You know exactly what the Thai immigration system will allow 10 years from now..

I don't know the future, it is based on current conditions, if the law changes we will also change our offer, at the moment it holds true.

[LivinLOS]

It would seem reasonable that someone applying for an extension to learn a language should have some functional use of the language. The language schools will now have a new lesson to teach....."How to talk to an Immigration Official."

If they go the formal testing route, I think everyone should know that you've got some serious learning to do. Thais take testing seriously. It will also cost you.

On the other hand, I am sure people will find out which officials like purple paper and which ones like grey.

Insinuating corruption is not right, please avoid making this kind of comments about the Thai immigration.

ha ha ha... superb..

Must say didnt take you for much of a practitioner of sarcasm until now..

Immigration.. Not being bent as a dogs hind leg.. classic.. Non imm O 12 months for 30k sir, certainly sir.

[LivinLOS]

Regarding our advertising, it is true that we can assist with ED visas for 10 years.

See its statements like that, which lose credibility..

You can see deep into the future.. You know exactly what the Thai immigration system will allow 10 years from now..

I don't know the future, it is based on current conditions, if the law changes we will also change our offer, at the moment it holds true.

So base it on current conditions.. What can you get them now ?? I year (or 3 months and extend 3 monthly).. So if being honest, you can say we can assist for 1 year visa's.

What happens in 5 years or 10 years, or 100 years.. who knows ?? So why claim only 10 ?? Why not claim 100 ??

[silentnine]

the point of my original post is being missed.

its a simple if you are on a ED visa for learning thai you should ensure you go and do the lessons as you may get tested at imigration, and if the lady with the badge feels you understood nothing she said she will tell you that if you do not improve then she will not be so overlooking next time.

one thing that does worry me a little. if every person on a ED visa now does start going to there lessons will there be enough seats !

one think i as wondering. when going to immigration for ed visa's & renewals

can you go to any office ? ie if you live in rayong and do a thai couse in pattaya. can you go to rayong immigration as it is you home area or do you have to go to the office where the education course takes place, ie jomtien in this case

Edited December 17, 2009 by silentnine

[Scott]

Let's take care in posting extremely negative remarks about the immigration department. One post has been deleted.

[tim73]

About time

Didn't take long these "high horse riding" farangs to show up. "Screw you, I got mine". Good 4 you, harry boy.

These moralists would be squealing like pigs (AGAIN) if the rules for THEIR visa had been changed.

It just looks like the school has not paid enough m-o-n-e-y to some high ranking official, nothing new.

Probably newer school in Pattaya?

Edited December 17, 2009 by tim73

[rethaired]

some people's iq is not higher than their shoe size

luckily european size is different and bigger than us (size 9 US = size 42-43 european)

lol

ps: americans and brits have it so much more easy to learn a new language

as they only speak english in general

in my case, Thai is/would be my 5th language ...

as where english is my 3rd...

any consideration ???

Well! Let's make a distinction between Thai being your 5th language and the notion that, in reality, you know a little bit of Thai and, presumably, a few sentences in some of those other languages that you are boasting about! I am a linguist and, even though most would consider me fully bilingual in 2 languages, I don't even consider myself so, but then I am really picky and consider most unilingual speakers unable to claim that they know their first language, especially English, which is one of the most illogical and backward languages around, but I digress (as this sentence is). Assuming you mean being somewhat conversant in those languages and Thai, knowing a little of Thai is nice, especially if you have been staying here for a while and are young, but what a pain and waste of anyone's time, especially when a good proportion of Thais know English (and learned it for many years more than most foreigners will ever be able to learn Thai) better than most foreigners know Thai and especially when research demonstrates without a shadow of a doubt that it is extremely hard to learn another language well, past puberty (especially the accent). So, forcing expats to learn Thai seems totally counter-productive. And is Thai or the thousands of dialects? And, why would I want to learn more than just a few sentences to get by, because honestly, assuming they are interested, talking philosophy in Thai is not on my TO-DO list anytime soon! Maybe more effort should be put in reducing class size, improving their pedagogy around teaching English, and changing the culture that makes learning a language (especially English) extremely hard. Not that I am blaming anyone here, as some of these impediments are obviously gigantic, if not impossible to tackle! Although we know that the well-off just send their children abroad as a way to bypass this, which is a clear indightement that the system is inadequate. But I digress again!

So, about the crackdown! I am afraid those immigration officers know very little about linguistics and should not be ruling so harshly on a situation which is contrived at best. As far as I know, there are no clear expectations set in the visa asking someone to become proficient in Thai. And, if so, where are the objective tests that would determine one's proficiency. And, anyway, what about the "Mai Pen Lai" attitude? Some day it is on; some day it is off? Come on! It was hinted in those fantastic commercials that everyone spoke English in Thailand! Can I get my money back?

Edited December 17, 2009 by rethaired

[Bkkthebest]

Then of course the attendance record should be checked. But the language "test" they do..what are they basing that one? Are they drawing up various levels of testing depending on how many months/years a person has had a ed visa for? Some people understand Thai but have trouble conversing, some people can converse well depending on the topic/subject matter and vocab they have learnt. There are so many variables it seems a ridiculous concept. If they want to check up on those on an Ed visa, seems fair enough to me, but the idea of a test and those who judge you if its not regulated in some way seems a bit stupid. Each school has different methods, vocabulary etc. Who draws up the "test" and how is it marked/measured?

I agree that the testing would need to be planned, designed, and administered carefully. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses, and learning Thai as a 2nd (or 3rd, etc) language is much more difficult for some than others. Personally, I attended a Thai class twice a week for 6 months - not for an ED visa, just for "fun." I worked hard, participated in class, and did my homework. After the 6 months, I still had much weaker Thai than some friends who just "picked it up" through daily living. Learning additional languages is just not one of my strengths. As others have said, attendance seems to be a more fair way to check the legitimacy of an ED visa. One guy could walk into immigration and be able to converse semi-fluently in Thai because he spends all his time with bar girls and various Thai girlfriends instead of going to class. Is he more deserving of an ED visa than someone who actually goes to class and puts in the classtime? No, not in my opinion. Of course, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to monitor all these ED visas, I just don't think an on-the-spot, informal conversational test is the best monitoring system.

IF you want something to be fair, you shouldn't be in Thailand. Thailand do not own you a living and they can do anything they want even if you disagree with it. You are a guest/alien here and that is the fact, it's their land and they set the law and the way they monitor you.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Bkkthebest

[MacWalen]

About time

Didn't take long these "high horse riding" farangs to show up. "Screw you, I got mine". Good 4 you, harry boy.

These moralists would be squealing like pigs (AGAIN) if the rules for THEIR visa had been changed.

It just looks like the school has not paid enough m-o-n-e-y to some high ranking official, nothing new.

Probably newer school in Pattaya?

tim73, I have no idea what you mean by your post? You mean Walen is a new school or Harry will lose his visa or what?

Edited December 17, 2009 by macwalen

[silentnine]

It is just today's news so I have to check it but as one student reported they asked him a few questions and they were not satisfied with his knowledge and he got a warning that if he does not improve they may not extend his visa next time. If I hear more cases I will report, so far this is the only one I know of.

Also I would not call it a crackdown on ED visas, that is much too exaggerated. It was a simple matter of verification. We also do not know what questions were asked.

I would imagine something like:

1. What is your name?

2. Where do you learn Thai?

3. What days do you attend your course?

4. Count for me from 1 to 10.

5. What time is it now?

6. What day is today?

7. How long have you been in Thailand?

8. Why do you learn Thai?

No idea, I will learn more about it and report back. These would be easy questions, you can learn it. No Walen student who attends school would have any problems at all.

Walen School - Teaching much faster!

www.thaiwalen.com

questions i was asked.

do you have a Thai wife, are you married, do you have a marriage certificate, how many times per week do you go to your Thai lessons.

after the initial question asked in Thai the rest were asked in English with the reply requested in Thai.

[Scott]

Again, a reminder to stay on topic and please remember that education visas affect a lot of other places besides language schools.

I am aware of at least one school that employs teachers who unqualified by getting them an education visa. They are signed up classes--not Thai language classes--they then work illegally as teachers.

[harrry]

About time

Didn't take long these "high horse riding" farangs to show up. "Screw you, I got mine". Good 4 you, harry boy.

These moralists would be squealing like pigs (AGAIN) if the rules for THEIR visa had been changed.

It just looks like the school has not paid enough m-o-n-e-y to some high ranking official, nothing new.

Probably newer school in Pattaya?

tim73, I have no idea what you mean by your post? You mean Walen is a new school or Harry will lose his visa or what?

I think he means that I am safe on another visa and wish to gloat. I do not think I will bother translating the other part:)

It is true I am on a retirement visa.

It is also true I am a student at a language school (not Wallen) which while its teaching standards has good has permitted (Even maye encouraged) student to not bother attending as they will continue to issue extension letters for the whole year. This means that the classes I am attending are impacted.

It is also true that I have been critical of Wallen for permitting this practice though it is common.

Wallen is a commited school which teaches using its method and has every right to consider itself a good school if people use it. (THe method isnot for me but it suits othrs well)

I hope thishas clarrified the other poster and my position.

[orosee]

Here's how it will play out for eager students:

IO: "Please speak to me in Thai"

ED: <speaks fluent Thai which has been acquired and practised over several years>

IO: "Well, your Thai is very good so there's no need to study anymore. Please make sure you leave before the expiry of your current visa."

So take the middle road when being tested

[tim73]

tim73, I have no idea what you mean by your post? You mean Walen is a new school or Harry will lose his visa or what?

I had similar problems a while ago, even had to show photos of where I live (finger pointing to the door) :D, photos from school (me studying hard with serious face, remember that, folks! No laughing!) and school attendance list of hours signed. Sometimes it was the problem with hours (not enough supposedly) but then every problem magically disappeared next time....

[MacWalen]

questions i was asked.

do you have a Thai wife, are you married, do you have a marriage certificate, how many times per week do you go to your Thai lessons.

after the initial question asked in Thai the rest were asked in English with the reply requested in Thai.

Thank you for letting us know, so nothing difficult as you can see, plus they extended your visa.

[pattaya_girl]

Hopefully this will not affect me, as I am going (in two months) to sign on at Pro Language Pattaya Klang, to learn to speak and read Thai.

I have no intention of signing up and then never attending Class.

This new thing at Immigration is probably to check that you are going and actually learning and not just signing up with the intention of just getting the Visa.

However, I would like to know what the so called test would be for some of my friends who have an ED Visa for learning Martial Arts, and I have another friend who is taking a Hairdressers course.

[Dakhar]

This exam is a piece of cake if you do what you are supposed to do and that is to learn Thai. If you do not know anything at all then you may have a problem at some point but they warn you first so you still have time to catch up. It is a positive development as it reinforces the fact that ED visas are a legitimate way to stay in Thailand!

How do you know it is a "piece of cake?" Did you design it, did you administer the test? Have you taken the same test? Seems pretty subjective to me....

Fortunatley for me, I don't have to worry about such "tests" but in this ever changing country... who knows, maybe I will have to under go such testing in the future.

[Parvis]

It becomes EASIER - not more difficult to learn languages after the second language.

This "crackdown" was necessary and about time. One particular school started to give "one free week" of tuition just to fill their classrooms to make it appear they have many students. Their ratio of student visas to actual students studying was "ridiculously high". Their advertising to be able to get student visas is "extremely successful".

They claim to be the "leader other schools must follow".

[jfchandler]

One other issue to be considered...

I believe, the Pattaya-Jomtien immigration office has a reputation among the visa experts here as being somewhat a rogue operation at times, meaning, they don't necessarily exactly follow the national guidelines, but sometimes manage to invent and enforce their own peculiar implementation of things...

The fact that the original report here came from Pattaya-Jomtien makes me wonder if this is just one of their local peculiarities, or part of something broader in the country... I'm guessing it's the former...

[ericthai]

...So, about the crackdown! I am afraid those immigration officers know very little about linguistics and should not be ruling so harshly on a situation which is contrived at best. And, anyway, what about the "Mai Pen Lai" attitude? Some day it is on; some day it is off?

You say you are a linguist, but then say you speak two languages, isn't the definition of a linguist is a person that speaks several languages fluently. You even say that you don't consider yourself bilingual, so I don't think I would be going around saying I'm a linguist.

Also you claim that a good proportion of Thais know English, don't know where you go, but most Thai's English is not so good. The university kids graduate and hardly know anything, believe me I have hired quite a few. I would say the girls in bars learn more than university students. As for foreigners learning Thai, guess you are meeting the wrong people or just hanging out in the wrong places. I myself am not great in Thai but my staff understands me and I know several foreigners that speak Thai very well and also read and write Thai. I'm always meeting other foreigners in the business world that can speak some Thai. I think you need to get out more!!!