Ed Visa Crackdown

[GreenFace]

My visa says on it its good for M journey (a) to thailand. this visa must be utilized before 19oct 10 if passport remains vaild. non immigrant visa ed. does this mean i dont have to regester with the immigration services. please tell. :-)

[Parvis]

You need to whatever your visa tells you. When you arrive in Thailand you will be given a stamp from Immigration in your passport which tells you for how long you are admitted.

[moskito]

At ease, ladies and gentlemen, and I say that respectfully, of course.

I can assure any of you that the interrogations are a ruse and cannot be any kind of criteria for denying an ED visa holder their extension.

A simple, polite call by the language school GM to the discriminating officer will quickly reveal that the officer is simply "trying to get to know the person" and is "not really interviewing" the person.

For numerous reasons, and mentioning only a few of these, Immigration is NOT the Department of Education, which in fact sets the standard of testing.

Furthermore, the officer must be a certified and qualified test provider, by the Department of Education, and therefore cannot legally conduct an "on the spot" D.ED standardized proficiency test. Anyone who knows about getting certifications in order to conduct testing also knows that there would need to be a representative from the D.ED who regularly visits the imigration departments and sets aside the required space in order to conduct these proficiency tests - and, last time I checked, the Thai Language Proficiency Test in Bangkok once a year is not yet compulsory, nor am I aware of any off-site testing area; specifically at the desk behind table number 5!

Ask the officer to show you the D.ED test questions.

Tell them that you want to speak to the on-site D.ED representative to be sure that your test will be fair and supervised under D.ED guidelines.

Ask them to show you the Thai law that states they have the right to refuse you an ED visa, and by what criteria.

Ask to see the Officers teaching certification and teaching license from the D.ED.

Ask the Officer how they can discriminate against your inalienable human right

LOL, you made my day

maybe you are new to Thailand? So just let me tell you and the other smart people here which still belive in their rights.

Immigration officers CAN and WILL do whatever THEY want.

If THEY want to refuse giving you an extension on your Visa, they just do it and everything what you can do is say thanks!

Asking the officer only some of these questions you mentioned above is like insulting him/her, do the same with an immi officer in Europe or US and you are out

before you can say Amen!

what do you think what your options are? changing the immigration? File a complaint to Bangkok HQ ? Go ahead

[ppmacready]

I have lived legally in Thailand for 14 years.People regularly ask me if I speak Thia.Perfectly I say, and wave a 500 baht note in front of them.

[bow]

To sum it up, it is good that they at least try to make it more difficult to abuse the ed-visa system.

Yes ?

[Brunus]

To sum it up, it is good that they at least try to make it more difficult to abuse the ed-visa system.

Yes ?

If the rules are fair I think almost everybody likes to play by the rules. Many think that immigration rules are not fair. This is a way that some use to get around rules that are at least bizarre.

So my answer is yes, but at the same time in my opinion they should also make easier the whole immigration thing.

[lopburi3]

Another post removed and warning will be issued - we have made it very clear this thread is for visa information - not to discuses schools or teaching methods. We have a Thai language forum and teaching forum.

[Tod Daniels]

Unfortunately I believe this was just one report of an alleged pending 'crack-down'. One that is totally unsubstantiated by anything more than a single persons extension experience. Perhaps the all powerful mods might consider changing the title of the thread from such a headline grabbing one into something more along the lines of "I experienced a problem extending my ED visa". Then again, any website wants hits, and the current title certainly is a hit grabbing one. IMHO it's far better than the "dog eating" headline a few weeks back.

While I do refer to thai language schools in the below post it is ED Visa related so pertinent to the title of the thread. ..

Not all that long ago, I believe the MOE changed from allowing "in-school" proficiency testing where at some schools, the staff would "hold your hand and walk you thru the test" (read; basically fill it out for you) to one where you must now go to Ministry of Education and are interviewed to get your ED visa extended in country for the next year once your initial year expires.

I heard from several currently enrolled students that some school has a 'cram course' for subsequent renewals (taught by their principal) which at least gets you to understand the basics of what will be asked in the interview at the MOE. Unless I am mistaken, they also chaperone students in groups out to the MOE and hold their hands thru the process.

There is also an unsubstantiated rumor that once you pay your tuition ‘some schools’ are now giving you ALL your extension paperwork for the entire year in one packet of documents, each conveniently dated near the time your next extension is due.

While this effectively removes the burden of responsibility on the school to keep up on when student must extend their ED visa, hence limiting problematic liability when paperwork wasn't given on time; the down side is it also lessens the necessity of enrolled students having to actually attend school at all, as they have ALL the paperwork for their year's worth of extensions.

So to sum it up, after plodding thru all the mindless posts on this thread; in reality there is NO crack-down, just one poster who had a small problem, but got his extension anyway.

It seems like this is really much ado about nothing, but it certainly woke up the T/V members as evidenced by the number of posts and views.

Edited to remove any reference to any specific school.

Edited December 18, 2009 by tod-daniels

[Mario2008]

I must say I have seen a post recently telling that immigration asked questions in Thai to check the proficiency of a student.

The report in this thread is the first one I see where immigration did more than just check.

[cup-O-coffee]

LOL, you made my day

maybe you are new to Thailand? So just let me tell you and the other smart people here which still belive in their rights.

Immigration officers CAN and WILL do whatever THEY want.

If THEY want to refuse giving you an extension on your Visa, they just do it and everything what you can do is say thanks!

Asking the officer only some of these questions you mentioned above is like insulting him/her, do the same with an immi officer in Europe or US and you are out

before you can say Amen!

what do you think what your options are? changing the immigration? File a complaint to Bangkok HQ ? Go ahead

Well. moskito, as a matter of fact, I did speak to the officer and they did back down; but for reasons stated in the rules of this forum, I cannot indulge you why I can do that. The fact is that I am not as much of a newbie as you imply, but again I cannot indulge your possible curiosity.

I am telling you a straight, hard fact that the officers will back down if they receive a call from any Dean, GM, or owner of an institution of learning; that is simply it. As the other poster said, the majority of this entire thread is much ado about nothing, and more of a platform for marketing the ED visa.

[p_brownstone]

LOL, you made my day

maybe you are new to Thailand? So just let me tell you and the other smart people here which still belive in their rights.

Immigration officers CAN and WILL do whatever THEY want.

If THEY want to refuse giving you an extension on your Visa, they just do it and everything what you can do is say thanks!

Asking the officer only some of these questions you mentioned above is like insulting him/her, do the same with an immi officer in Europe or US and you are out

before you can say Amen!

what do you think what your options are? changing the immigration? File a complaint to Bangkok HQ ? Go ahead

Well. moskito, as a matter of fact, I did speak to the officer and they did back down; but for reasons stated in the rules of this forum, I cannot indulge you why I can do that. The fact is that I am not as much of a newbie as you imply, but again I cannot indulge your possible curiosity.

I am telling you a straight, hard fact that the officers will back down if they receive a call from any Dean, GM, or owner of an institution of learning; that is simply it. As the other poster said, the majority of this entire thread is much ado about nothing, and more of a platform for marketing the ED visa.

Nice to see the Forum Rules protecting the innocent .

However old chap, if you really did talk to the Officer - and explained to him the limits of his authority as you say - then clearly your Thai language skills were sufficient for him to accept that you were in Thailand, learning Thai, and doing pretty well.

Hence (perhaps) you received your Extension.

Perhaps.

That said, anyone who believes that a Thai Immigration Officer could be swayed in his decision on any Visa or Extension Application by a telephone call from another unidentified Thai who has no immediate influence over that Officer (much less a Farang "Dean") ……………. well, words fail me.

Patrick

[ericthai]

Can i get a Ed visa for Sex Education? Then the pretty girls at immigration can test me anytime.

I would be willing to even have them give me a little tutoring if need be.

[ericthai]

At ease, ladies and gentlemen, and I say that respectfully, of course.

I can assure any of you that the interrogations are a ruse and cannot be any kind of criteria for denying an ED visa holder their extension.

A simple, polite call by the language school GM to the discriminating officer will quickly reveal that the officer is simply "trying to get to know the person" and is "not really interviewing" the person.

For numerous reasons, and mentioning only a few of these, Immigration is NOT the Department of Education, which in fact sets the standard of testing.

Furthermore, the officer must be a certified and qualified test provider, by the Department of Education, and therefore cannot legally conduct an "on the spot" D.ED standardized proficiency test. Anyone who knows about getting certifications in order to conduct testing also knows that there would need to be a representative from the D.ED who regularly visits the imigration departments and sets aside the required space in order to conduct these proficiency tests - and, last time I checked, the Thai Language Proficiency Test in Bangkok once a year is not yet compulsory, nor am I aware of any off-site testing area; specifically at the desk behind table number 5!

Ask the officer to show you the D.ED test questions.

Tell them that you want to speak to the on-site D.ED representative to be sure that your test will be fair and supervised under D.ED guidelines.

Ask them to show you the Thai law that states they have the right to refuse you an ED visa, and by what criteria.

Ask to see the Officers teaching certification and teaching license from the D.ED.

Ask the Officer how they can discriminate against your inalienable human right to be allowed to learn at a rate of speed that is within your mental capacity to access the information and retain it satisfactorily; for any given time period!

Additionally, unless the officer first conducts an I.Q. test before determining the skill level that you should be at, BASED ON THE TIME YOU HAVE HAD THE VISA, then they CANNOT deny you an ED visa extension without treading on international human rights that protect you from discrimination, racism, etc.

The length of time that you have had an ED visa in your passport has nothing to do with a persons understanding of a curriculum, nor should it be equated with being more skilled in that curriculum. I teach Thais who have been in English classrooms for many, many years, and their levels are atrocious.

At the end of the day, a simple and very polite, yet firm call from an attentive and caring language school GM will suffice. Life will go on as it should...

The content of this OP is understandable, but simply a bluff. Call it, and you will see. Have your GM from school alerted when you go and ring them up as you sit there. Watch the officer's face and attitude change after they put the phone to their ear. When you show them that you do not have to put up with this crap, they will back down.

Actually doing all the "horrible" things that these officers claim would be pulling on the thread that unravels the proverbial sweater.

You are joking ..right? i mean...Joke right?

[eTiMaGo]

Why does the Thai government always want to make things harder for themselves. Forcing International students to learn thai makes it harder for students to come here, and therefore some will be less willing to, which will lead to fewer international students, and therefore less money earned in Thailand off of them.

To be honest, if a school advertises that it's taught in English (like my uni, BUIC) then the student shouldn't have to learn Thai. It should be encouraged of course, since a university student will be spending a while here, but not forced.

Hmmm on a similar note, I attended most of my secondary and tertiary education in our southern neighbor Malaysia, in international schools and colleges. And, it was a requirement by their government that all foreign students should learn Malay, as well as malaysian culture. And over there where the general population speaks far better English than here, it's pretty useless compared to learning Thai! Of course, the classes were mostly a joke (and Malay is a very very VERY easy language, think of Thai grammar/sentence construction, but written in a roman alphabet... all you really need is vocabulary)

Anyway, I am quite sure the immigration knows the difference between a kid/young adult attending an actual proper school/university, and people piggybacking on the language school system to stay in the country indefinitely. What I mean is, as a student in BUIC or elsewhere, if an immigration officer were to give you a language test on the spot and you were to fail miserably, I am quite sure you could still get your extension...

Once again, I have no problem with institutions like Walen and the like, but it is inevitable that at some point, someone will take steps to weed out the pseudo-students... Those who will bitch and moan about it the most are most likely those who have something to lose in this

And on a final note, come on, it's not like Thai is such a difficult language if you set your mind to it (well, except writing )

[siggie2]

This exam is a piece of cake if you do what you are supposed to do and that is to learn Thai. If you do not know anything at all then you may have a problem at some point but they warn you first so you still have time to catch up. It is a positive development as it reinforces the fact that ED visas are a legitimate way to stay in Thailand!

Very good point.I get so fed up of hearing farangs say the thais are trying to stop this and that,but if the farangs werent scammers/criminals/drop outs/drug sellers etc etc then the thai government wouldnt have to keep changing rules.The ed visa has always been a way of staying in Thailand,mainly for the younger farangs and it gets abused

[verywierd]

Once again, I have no problem with institutions like Walen and the like, but it is inevitable that at some point, someone will take steps to weed out the pseudo-students... Those who will bitch and moan about it the most are most likely those who have something to lose in this

And on a final note, come on, it's not like Thai is such a difficult language if you set your mind to it (well, except writing )

I speak English, Malay, Cantonese and Mandarin and am trying to learn Thai. However, each of the second languages took me about ten years to attain even a basic ability (I'm over 50 yrs old). I simply have a very bad memory, so attaining a reasonable vocabulary is very difficult. I have learned the Thai alphabet and can sound out a lot of words, but remembering enough words to give me a useful command of the language has always been very hard for me.

Given a list of (say) three hundred words, I can memorize them all fairly quickly, but unless I revise all of them every day without fail, it only takes a gap of about a week for me to completely lose any word that I have failed to revise, no matter how long I have studied it. Strangely, language structure and grammar is not so much of problem.

Saying that 6 months or even two years is sufficient for someone to learn the language is simply not true in my case.

[languageexpress]

As the OP points out, the answer is simple. Enroll yourself in a decent school and attend classes.

[Parvis]

'verywierd'

I think your problem with "memory" is a question of "ability to focus". The practice of "focus" alone is not exactly simple since "stray thoughts" constantly appear on your "thought horizon".

Most people just feel it is a case of "inherently bad memory" when they have difficulty to remember - but they don't appear to realize it is not possible to concentrate with TV, Radio, Music, screaming children etc etc etc - in the background and expect to "retain new information".

[Brunus]

Very good point.I get so fed up of hearing farangs say the thais are trying to stop this and that,but if the farangs werent scammers/criminals/drop outs/drug sellers etc etc then the thai government wouldnt have to keep changing rules.The ed visa has always been a way of staying in Thailand,mainly for the younger farangs and it gets abused

Are you kidding? All the people I know who use this visa are honest people, tourists, who don't work illegally or do nothing illegal. They are just fed up with visa runs. They have an income that allows them to have a decent life in Thailand without working. Unfortunately they don't meet the requirements requested by the law. Have a look at the requirements. Can somebody with a pension of 1000 euros live in Thailand? Well 50000 bath a month is more than enough for living here. My neighbor has only one leg and because of this has a small pension, but enough to live here. I can't blame him if he is not very happy to do visa runs with his fake legs and prefers to pay for an ed visa.

Some farangs might be criminals, but if you say "if the farangs werent scammers/criminals/drop outs/drug sellers etc etc then the thai government wouldnt have to keep changing rules" you are implying that those on an ed visa are all criminals. Or maybe all farangs are criminals?

[Parvis]

'Brunus'

If you have enough money to stay in Thailand without working and you are not eligible for a "long stay Visa" - well - there is always the Tourist Visa.

If you want to legitimately study - you can get an Ed Visa.

If you want an Ed Visa - but do not want to study and therefore you do not attend classes regularily - you are "bending the rules" and should be deported.

If a School is getting you an Ed Visa without requiring you attendance in Class - this is unethical and illegal.

The problem is not mostly the "questionable students" - but the Schools who allow it and thereby creating an atmosphere of "who cares". School quality declines for those students whose principal aim is to study and not to abuse the system.

[Brunus]

'Brunus'

If you have enough money to stay in Thailand without working and you are not eligible for a "long stay Visa" - well - there is always the Tourist Visa.

If you want to legitimately study - you can get an Ed Visa.

If you want an Ed Visa - but do not want to study and therefore you do not attend classes regularily - you are "bending the rules" and should be deported.

If a School is getting you an Ed Visa without requiring you attendance in Class - this is unethical and illegal.

The problem is not mostly the "questionable students" - but the Schools who allow it and thereby creating an atmosphere of "who cares". School quality declines for those students whose principal aim is to study and not to abuse the system.

I said that many of those people are just fed up with visa runs, of course they could stay in Thailand anyway. They just don't want to waste their time on useless visa runs.

I said before that I think it's right enforcing the law if the law is fair. Visa runs are just a nonsense.

Let's give an example. I think it's right to respect speed limits. But if you put a 30 km/h limit on a highway, it's a nonsense. And I can't blame if people drive faster than that. The speed limit is wrong.

[eek]

If you have enough money to stay in Thailand without working and you are not eligible for a "long stay Visa" - well - there is always the Tourist Visa.

lol try reasoning that on the other thread ("Vientiane for tourist visa update") and they will come down on you like a ton of bricks! Until Thailand provides some kind of long stay visa for those under retirement age, people will continue to use whatever option they think fits them best. Sadly that means many may "abuse" the system, but only for want of a more suitable visa.

[Parvis]

'Brunus'

I understand your frustration with "Visa runs" - I have also used them in the beginning - because it was just "simpler" for me - despite the fact that I was always qualified for "long stay Visas".

BUT - the law is the law is the law. As long as we live in a Society we have to accept that sometimes we may not like the existing law - but we have to observe it - or try to change it - or pay the consequences.

[Brunus]

Parvis

If there are no problems there will be no visa runs anymore for me (marriage visa).

I just think that the laws sometimes are wrong, and I can't blame who get around it.

Another example. In my country it was illegal until some years ago to turn on the lights of your vehicle during daytime. I was fined several times because for my safety I always had the lights on on my motorbike. Now it is illegal not to turn on the lights of your vehicle during daytime. Who makes the laws is not perfect. In this case I prefer to blame who makes bizarre laws rather those who get around them.

[Tod Daniels]

Okay, this B/S post has gone on long enough with the rampant speculation, casting of aspersions on why people hold ED visas, shoe-horning all foreigners into inappropriate cubby holes, (in other words; painting with a very broad brush) and all the pseudo intellectual double talk by the “resident visa experts”.

In reading the O/P's post, no where did he EVER say he "took a test". I quote, " the lady starts talking to me in thai, then tells me they are now testing applicants from there 2nd renewal onwards" <sic>. It is most definitely NOT the MOE testing/interview you do to continue studying thai after your first year when you renew for a second year in-country. It seems more like an Immigrations Officer took it upon herself to be the defacto person who 'vets' an ED visa holders thai.

Anyone having gone to Thai Immigrations knows there are many variables which come into play when dealing with thai bureaucracy. These factors include but are by no means limited to; how you act, how you treat them, how you are dressed, if a person ahead of you was rude to the Immigrations Officer and now she has a bug up her ass, etc. Any or all of these factors can and do sadly play a role in both how you are treated, and if you ultimately achieve your goal(s).

This last year I went to Suan Plu over 100 times shepherding various and sundry people thru their visa process. 99.99% of the time I was treated cordially, and the outcome was as expected. There were the various hiccups, but overall no problems considering the number of people I took out there.

Detractors may say what they will about Mac Walen and his thai language school. However, one thing his company can and does do is to work closely with the MOE and provides you paperwork which flies thru an extension process or initial visa application process without a problem.

If we were to take figures mac has used in other posts about ED visas issued; (1400 at last count), that equates to well over 5000 extension of visa applications that his company has processed for their students. I know hundreds of his students, yet hear so few of complaints from them in this area that it isn't funny. In this regard mac is really leaps and bounds ahead of his competition. He truly has visa and visa extension paperwork down to a fine art.

As the O/P is a Walen student we can only wait with bated breath to hear back from mac.

[Parvis]

There is actually nothing like "rampant speculation" etc etc etc that makes this thread "entertaining" to read and "successfull". Just observe the responses in the last 2 days. Some of it is thought-provoking and even informational - in other responses one can see how personal selfinterest "muddles" valid jugement.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Parvis

[Tod Daniels]

Here's a thread I just started about the testing now being done at Changwattana for ED visa extensions as well.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Ed-Visa-Exte...es-t323165.html

To the O/P, I am sorry I doubted the veracity of your story, I stand humbly corrected...

[Brunus]

Here's a thread I just started about the testing now being done at Changwattana for ED visa extensions as well.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Ed-Visa-Exte...es-t323165.html

To the O/P, I am sorry I doubted the veracity of your story, I stand humbly corrected...

Happy to know that at least somebody in this forum admits to be wrong when he is wrong. I am not sarcastic. I really appreciate this. Doesn't matter if you agree or not with my opinions.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Brunus

[MacWalen]

Okay, this B/S post has gone on long enough with the rampant speculation, casting of aspersions on why people hold ED visas, shoe-horning all foreigners into inappropriate cubby holes, (in other words; painting with a very broad brush) and all the pseudo intellectual double talk by the "resident visa experts".

In reading the O/P's post, no where did he EVER say he "took a test". I quote, " the lady starts talking to me in thai, then tells me they are now testing applicants from there 2nd renewal onwards" <sic>. It is most definitely NOT the MOE testing/interview you do to continue studying thai after your first year when you renew for a second year in-country. It seems more like an Immigrations Officer took it upon herself to be the defacto person who 'vets' an ED visa holders thai.

Anyone having gone to Thai Immigrations knows there are many variables which come into play when dealing with thai bureaucracy. These factors include but are by no means limited to; how you act, how you treat them, how you are dressed, if a person ahead of you was rude to the Immigrations Officer and now she has a bug up her ass, etc. Any or all of these factors can and do sadly play a role in both how you are treated, and if you ultimately achieve your goal(s).

This last year I went to Suan Plu over 100 times shepherding various and sundry people thru their visa process. 99.99% of the time I was treated cordially, and the outcome was as expected. There were the various hiccups, but overall no problems considering the number of people I took out there.

Detractors may say what they will about Mac Walen and his thai language school. However, one thing his company can and does do is to work closely with the MOE and provides you paperwork which flies thru an extension process or initial visa application process without a problem.

If we were to take figures mac has used in other posts about ED visas issued; (1400 at last count), that equates to well over 5000 extension of visa applications that his company has processed for their students. I know hundreds of his students, yet hear so few of complaints from them in this area that it isn't funny. In this regard mac is really leaps and bounds ahead of his competition. He truly has visa and visa extension paperwork down to a fine art.

As the O/P is a Walen student we can only wait with bated breath to hear back from mac.

You will hear from me, I am not going anywhere. Pity you missed the party Tod, it was really good fun. I know that you bought a ticket but did not make it. This year we've had a lucky draw worth over 30k!

Walen School - Happy to be of service.

www.thaiwalen.com

Edited December 18, 2009 by macwalen

[LivinLOS]

Are you kidding? All the people I know who use this visa are honest people, tourists, who don't work illegally or do nothing illegal. They are just fed up with visa runs. They have an income that allows them to have a decent life in Thailand without working. Unfortunately they don't meet the requirements requested by the law. Have a look at the requirements. Can somebody with a pension of 1000 euros live in Thailand? Well 50000 bath a month is more than enough for living here. My neighbor has only one leg and because of this has a small pension, but enough to live here. I can't blame him if he is not very happy to do visa runs with his fake legs and prefers to pay for an ed visa.

While I am never a fan of the baying crowd that love to poke at any group being pressured by todays rule change.. It isnt really Thailand job to have one legged poor people visa's. Its up to them to say who can and cannot stay here.

I personally think its very odd, given the TATs non stop work to market Thailand to 'quality tourists' that they dont have a visa class for high net worth / young retirees, but even if they did I could see many reasons why they would want to set a high bar of say a couple of million THB in the bank and even then I bet folks would find reason to complain.