"A whirlwind of activity at the highest levels of the Israeli government in recent days had suggested a deal to swap 1,000 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails for 23-year-old Sgt. Gilad Schalit, held by the militants for 3 1/2 years, could be close."

------

Whatever happened to the Cold War swaps of 1-to-1? This 1000:1 would seem to indicate the low value Hamas puts on its own people. But, hey, if the Israelis are willing to accept it, why not?

Be interesting to see if that deal includes all of his body parts.

Just ask yourself how many Palestinians have been killed/captured or whatever, compared to Israelis, Kohee.

".....This 1000:1 would seem to indicate the low value Hamas puts on its own people. ...."

That's a stupid suggestion. It's got nothing to do with the value Hamas place on their own. Do you expect them to say, "Nooooo, that's too many. We want only one."?

It is however an indication of how valuable Schalit is to the Israelis. And Hamas know it. If you can make a thousandfold profit in a deal, why not?

Also, it is possibly an indication of the arrogance of the Israelis in placing that value on the Palestinians.

But, hey, if the Israelis are willing to accept it, why not?

Accept it? They suggested it no?

All it possibly means is the Israeli's jail a heck of a lot more on their end than the Hamas do.

May be if the US gave Palestine $2.4 billion (conservative estimate) in military aid a year as well as Israel it might increase the value of their fighters a little.

But, hey, if the Israelis are willing to accept it, why not?

Accept it? They suggested it no?

All it possibly means is the Israeli's jail a heck of a lot more on their end than the Hamas do.

No, I read that it was Hamas' proposal.

So what if the Israelis jail more? All that means is that they are better at it. "They capture more than we do, it's not fair!", "We throw a rock at a man with a gun and he shoots at us, it's not fair!". When the weaker go after the stronger, they have to expect to get the short end of the stick.

Harcourt: No, I don't really believe that Hamas thinks one Israeli is worth 1000 Palestinians. It's just one way to put a spin on their offer. I agree with you 100% on this: "It is however an indication of how valuable Schalit is to the Israelis. And Hamas know it. If you can make a thousandfold profit in a deal, why not?"

May be if the US gave Palestine $2.4 billion (conservative estimate) in military aid a year as well as Israel it might increase the value of their fighters a little.

And Egypt gets billions as well. I'm just guessing that it is all somehow related to the peace deal back in the late 1970's.

Btw - the Palestinians have their own super rich backers in the Saudis and other Persian Gulf nations. When was the last time any of them gave money to the Israelis?

So what if the Israelis jail more? All that means is that they are better at it.

Obviously not as one they value at a ratio of 1000/1 seems to have gotten jailed.

By the lesser skilled no less.

May be if the US gave Palestine $2.4 billion (conservative estimate) in military aid a year as well as Israel it might increase the value of their fighters a little.

And Egypt gets billions as well. I'm just guessing that it is all somehow related to the peace deal back in the late 1970's.

Btw - the Palestinians have their own super rich backers in the Saudis and other Persian Gulf nations. When was the last time any of them gave money to the Israelis?

Egypt and Jordan are indeed major recipients of US aid. This is actually Israel related aid as well, a bribe to leave them alone.

I'd be interested to know just how much Arab money goes to the Palestinians. The common theory, and I've heard it expounded by pro-Israelis here, is that the Saudis et al despise the Palestinians and only throw them a few crumbs as a sop to their anti Israel beliefs.

There's certainly no sign of oil dollars being flashed around in the camps, so I've been told at reliable first hand level.

That's why they have only home-made unreliable rockets.

If they had significant money........

But it's an interesting irony: The US funds Israel to buy weapons, which they use to kil Palestinians, then funds Egypt and Jordan to leave Israel alone.

I wonder what will happen about the Raffah wall.

I watched a very sad doco yesterday about the plight of the Druze Arabs in Israel. As Israeli citizens, they are conscripted into the army and thus forced to fight Palestinian Arabs.

Iran and Syria are active in funding both Hamas and Hezbollah. Hamas and Hezbollah are the proxy armies for Iran against Israel.

Iran and Syria are active in funding both Hamas and Hezbollah. Hamas and Hezbollah are the proxy armies for Iran against Israel.

It is a commonly held belief, but I would really like to see evidence of this. If there was money pouring in, why are they so destitute?

I suggest you are quoting convenient propaganda (I don't suggest that you do it deliberately, just unthinkingly).

When I lived in Lao I used to lift a glass with a few NGO and UN types that were based there. These were older guys for whom the starry eyed stage of helping the world had long gone and disillusionment with some of the people they helped had well and truly set in. (Read Palestinians here).

They had no reason to make things up, particularly after a few drinks, but some of the things I heard about that they'd personally seen, on both sides of the wire, I would never repeat here.

The general consensus was that there wasn't much money coming in for any purpose, in fact US and European aid probably led the field.

Edit: Actually if chuckd thinks about it for a few minutes he will see how much it is to the Arab world's advantage to keep the Palestinians impoverished and on Israel's doorstep. The occasional missile or raid is probably irrelevant to the main game plan of making Israel look bad in the eyes of the world.

Sceadugenga, I think some first-hand or second-hand anecdotes (from both side of the wire) would be appropriate here.

When I lived in Lao I used to lift a glass with a few NGO and UN types that were based there. These were older guys for whom the starry eyed stage of helping the world had long gone and disillusionment with some of the people they helped had well and truly set in. (Read Palestinians here).

They had no reason to make things up, particularly after a few drinks, but some of the things I heard about that they'd personally seen, on both sides of the wire, I would never repeat here.

The general consensus was that there wasn't much money coming in for any purpose, in fact US and European aid probably led the field.

Edit: Actually if chuckd thinks about it for a few minutes he will see how much it is to the Arab world's advantage to keep the Palestinians impoverished and on Israel's doorstep. The occasional missile or raid is probably irrelevant to the main game plan of making Israel look bad in the eyes of the world.

A little dated, but you get the idea:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/07/...ain582487.shtml

So they were/are led by thieves. One wonders if the money would have arrived at all if it wasn't for Arafat, he was certainly a focal point to many people.

My father fought in the Second World War, something that involved being away from home and family for six years, no R&R in those days. When the war ended he was lucky enough to be sent home but many of his friends, also in Southern Europe or North Africa, were sent to what was then known as Palestine where many of them were killed by the people they had just been fighting for.

King David Hotel Bombing

The people who organised and implemented attacks like this are now hailed as freedom fighters and later went on to become the leaders of their country.

They were not Palestinians, they were Israelis.

There is no black and white in this type of conflict.

So they were/are led by thieves. One wonders if the money would have arrived at all if it wasn't for Arafat, he was certainly a focal point to many people.

My father fought in the Second World War, something that involved being away from home and family for six years, no R&R in those days. When the war ended he was lucky enough to be sent home but many of his friends, also in Southern Europe or North Africa, were sent to what was then known as Palestine where many of them were killed by the people they had just been fighting for.

King David Hotel Bombing

The people who organised and implemented attacks like this are now hailed as freedom fighters and later went on to become the leaders of their country.

They were not Palestinians, they were Israelis.

There is no black and white in this type of conflict.

The only thing that's black and white is, that it is the sustaining of the conflict which serves the interests of those in power and those that support them. No one's interested in a resolution, despite their posturing. They are in the conflict funding business. I'm speaking of both sides here if that wasn't obvious.

The only thing that's black and white is, that it is the sustaining of the conflict which serves the interests of those in power and those that support them. No one's interested in a resolution, despite their posturing.

True words

The only thing that's black and white is, that it is the sustaining of the conflict which serves the interests of those in power and those that support them. No one's interested in a resolution, despite their posturing.

True words

I wonder, what ARE those interests? I especially wonder about the Palestinian interests?

So they were/are led by thieves. One wonders if the money would have arrived at all if it wasn't for Arafat, he was certainly a focal point to many people.

My father fought in the Second World War, something that involved being away from home and family for six years, no R&R in those days. When the war ended he was lucky enough to be sent home but many of his friends, also in Southern Europe or North Africa, were sent to what was then known as Palestine where many of them were killed by the people they had just been fighting for.

King David Hotel Bombing

The people who organised and implemented attacks like this are now hailed as freedom fighters and later went on to become the leaders of their country.

They were not Palestinians, they were Israelis.

There is no black and white in this type of conflict.

Yes there are some grey parts.

But there are some distinct black and white parts.

Even before 1948, for years, there had been conflict, sometimes outright, sometimes political, between the British and the Arabs in Palestine.

If history is weighed up properly, I think a fair-minded person would agree that the Palestinian Arabs do have a valid chip on their shoulder.

Certainly, recent history has clouded the scenario and it would seem that there is no black or white..... but since the conflict is a result of the past, then the past should be considered by outsiders looking in.

The Israeli/Palestinian past did not begin with the creation of the State of Israel.

That creation only served to exacerbate sentiments.

It's the same anywhere where indigenous people have been evicted by a stronger race.

They say the land was wasted, being ruined, the original inhabitants were lazy, unwashed, child abusers... the list goes ever on.

The only thing that's black and white is, that it is the sustaining of the conflict which serves the interests of those in power and those that support them. No one's interested in a resolution, despite their posturing.

True words

I wonder, what ARE those interests? I especially wonder about the Palestinian interests?

Wealth, Control, Power, Distraction from graver crimes. When did that ever change? Maybe you have the pawns confused with the Kings and Queens or think they have similar interests. From my observations that is seldom the case.

If history is weighed up properly, I think a fair-minded person would agree that the Palestinian Arabs do have a valid chip on their shoulder.

I don't think any reasonable person could disagree with this point. I would say the state of Israel is only one of many places where their enmity could be pointed. Particularly for their settlement expansion, which in my view is inexcusable.

I usually don't post in these kinds of topics, because it usually comes down to folks who are irrationally pro this, or irrationally con that, and I have given up caring about this cause.

It took me 40 years and a couple million dollars to learn that one should never offer help to others in a greater measure than they are willing to help themselves. It inevitably leads to grave disappointment. I make exceptions for children and most refugees. The Palestinians no longer fall with in the excepted group for me. Not that they aren't worthy, but their own "benefactors" are too great an impediment to a solution so I've written this partcular struggle off.

I agree with you that there is definitely a wealth gap between the kings and the pawns, and that in Western countries, this gap is controlled/manipulated by the "kings".

What I'd like to see is what wealth is gained by Palestinian "kings" by the continuation of this conflict?

Iran and Syria are active in funding both Hamas and Hezbollah. Hamas and Hezbollah are the proxy armies for Iran against Israel.

It is a commonly held belief, but I would really like to see evidence of this. If there was money pouring in, why are they so destitute?

I suggest you are quoting convenient propaganda (I don't suggest that you do it deliberately, just unthinkingly).

I unthinkingly located 490,000 links to the subject of Iran and Syria arming Hezbollah and Hamas in 0.12 seconds on Google.

Here are just a few of them.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Publ...12/442luknw.asp

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123992372145727175.html

http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2006/071...east_byman.aspx

http://blog.technonllc.com/index.php?/arch...rm-of-Iran.html

______________________________________________________

As far as money pouring in, the following link, although somewhat dated, explains the donations and what happens to it. It appears to either have been stolen by their leaders or spent on weapons.

This money is being sent to the Palestinian Authority, with Hamas as the ruling party.

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/viewa...nswer-id-002982

http://www.meforum.org/645/arafats-swiss-bank-account

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45...t_1929-2004.asp

_______________________________________________________

I can find more if needed. Please note Wikipedia was not harmed in the making of this post.

Edit: Actually if chuckd thinks about it for a few minutes he will see how much it is to the Arab world's advantage to keep the Palestinians impoverished and on Israel's doorstep. The occasional missile or raid is probably irrelevant to the main game plan of making Israel look bad in the eyes of the world.

I don't remember ever saying the Arabs wanted to help the Palestinians pull themselves up by their boot straps. Most Arabs look down on the Palestinians.

The Palestinian/Israeli problem is the only thing that brings any sort of cohesiveness to the Muslim world.

from lannarebirth's link;

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/07/...ain582487.shtml

(CBS) Yasser Arafat diverted nearly $1 billion in public funds to insure his political survival, but a lot more is unaccounted for.

Jim Prince and a team of American accountants - hired by Arafat's own finance ministry - are combing through Arafat's books. Given what they've already uncovered, Arafat may be rethinking the decision. Lesley Stahl reports.

So far, Prince's team has determined that part of the Palestinian leader's wealth was in a secret portfolio worth close to $1 billion -- with investments in companies like a Coca-Cola bottling plant in Ramallah, a Tunisian cell phone company and venture capital funds in the U.S. and the Cayman Islands.

Although the money for the portfolio came from public funds like Palestinian taxes, virtually none of it was used for the Palestinian people; it was all controlled by Arafat. And, Prince says, none of these dealings were made public.

"Arafat for years would cry poor, saying, 'I can't pay the salaries, we're gonna have a disaster here, the Palestinian economy is going to collapse,'" says Indyk. "And we would all mouth those words: 'The Palestinian economy is going to collapse if we don't do something about this.' But at the same time, he's accumulating hundreds of millions of dollars."

The stockpile went well beyond the portfolio. Arafat accumulated another $1 billion with the help of -- of all people -- the Israelis. Under the Oslo Accords, it was agreed that Israel would collect sales taxes on goods purchased by Palestinians and transfer those funds to the Palestinian treasury. But instead, Indyk says, "that money is transferred to Yasser Arafat to, amongst other places, bank accounts which he maintains off-line in Israel."

-------

just proves that is pays to be a victim