New Honda Pcxi 125cc I,

[shelby]

Let me simplify.

Normal motorcycles consume energy for starting only once at the start of each ride. Whereas, the PCX when in idle stop mode, consumes energy for starting at every idle stop.

Thus the hybrid action is the regeneration from the gas motor via the alternator of the additional energy need for the additional starts. Whether that generation occurs on acceleration or not, is irrelevant to fact that hybrid (as contrasted to homogeneous of 1 start per ride) action is occurring. However, it is relevant to whether the regeneration is conserving fuel.

However, we can do a rough estimate to determine that probably less than 20% of the fuel efficiency savings is coming from the starting regeneration. Thus this hybrid action is less than 1% effective (20% of 5%). And even worse to the extent that the hybrid action is not during deceleration capturing what would be otherwise wasted inertia.

Such a rough estimate is as follows. Less assume that starting consume 4x more power than idling (i.e. time independent) because starting has to overcome more inertia, and from the Honda specs we see the starting takes 0.5 - 0.9 sec, and lets us assume average idle periods are 10 - 20 sec. So 4 x 0.5 / 10 = 20%. Actually I suspect it is worse than that, both in terms of that calculation and the point above about capturing wasted inertia.

So I think it would be fair to say that the hybrid action in terms of the battery is very insignificant. Nevertheless, there is some.

However, there is another hybrid action going on, and that is the idle stop savings itself. I say "hybrid" because it is not the homogeneous action of leaving the motor on for the entire ride.

Any way, we can debate terminology, but the bottom line is that we gain the following advantages:

* 5.5% fuel economy (on the 50cc Spark)

* reduced emissions especially when stopped in traffic

* a more powerful, high duty cycle starter (if we don't run it in idle start, it will probably outlive the bike)

* lower friction motor at least for starts (this must have some durability advantages as well)

* silent starts, no wearing out the teeth on the flywheel

* higher capacity alternator (we can use this to power more accessories if we don't use the idle stop), see note below

* reduced mass & dimensions as compared to separate starter & alternator (motorcycles are defined by power/mass ratio)

* cooler running engine in traffic when many idle stops (thus longer engine and oil life)

I can not think of any disadvantages (of the hybrid idle start changes to the motorcycle) other than price. Can you?

Note Honda actually had to work hard to reduce the alternator output (it has a dual role as a starter), because starters generate more power at low RPMs when run as generator, because they are designed to have high torque at low RPMs. The higher capacity of the alternator is assured by the fact that more starts requires more generation.

In addition to the items above, which I feel mean I would be buying higher quality subsystems, note there are other advantages of the PCX which are more compelling for me:

* Fuel injection means the bike will always start, as compared to fiddling with carburetors

* Higher capacity charging means if I don't run it in idle mode, it will less likely get a low battery and not start

* Slightly heavier and more luxurious ride (with leg extension for long trips), without going to the (much less maneuverable) level of a big bike.

* Low seat (30") unlike most big bikes (I am 31" in seam) so probably flat footed for most people

* Big enough that I won't feel like I am riding an undersized toy.

* Nice styling, looking more like a full size Burgman or Majesty

I want to clarify a few mistakes I made in earlier posts. I had mentioned that most small motorcycles run on DC generators. And I stated this correlated to observing lower power output at low RPMs, giving dim headlights. Well I think it is more complex than that. DC generators can actually have a field coil too. And the PCX does not have a field coil even though it is an AC alternator. Check out this link:

animations dot physics dot unsw dot edu dot au slash jw slash electricmotors dot html

[shelby]

Apologies for the offensive "logic 101" comment. Losing my cool today, probably not because of what was written in this forum, because of culmination of a multi-week battle I been having about computer programming else where.

idlestop 120 seconds (many phuket redlights are 130 seconds), accelerate 12-15 seconds, idlestop 2 minutes, acc........ repeat 6-8 times

and you have a dead battery. 16 minutes idlestop draining 90-100watt (lights) and no charging initial 12-15 seconds: 12v/5ah battery is drained. no kick start on this babe.

To avoid this, Honda has been clever enough to equip PCX with a switch to avoid idlestop. Battery is not drained during stops and charging is continous until battery is full.

That is why I don't live in Manila either. So far here very few stop lights, and I know how to avoid 80+% of them. When I first got here in 1994, there wasn't even street lights. But it is changing fast, especially they just started building condos which is bringing the foreigners in, which means it is about time for me to move. Luckily nearly no bar action here, so foreigners leave for Cebu or Manila or Angeles.

90Watts for lights? Really? I see on the Honda technical site, the graph is showing only 11 Amps max charging current, so that is only 130 Watts total. You need some significant watts (typically 140Watts on a Burgman 400 with 300Watt alternator) for the fuel injection. Is that graph for the 50cc Spark you think?

I hope you are correct, that means I can trade out for HID lights and give me more Watts to crank up a stereo system.

Are you sure the fail safe is only the switch? Why can't Honda's ECU detect the voltage at idle and turn off the idle stop. Have you tested?

Several reasons for Audi to skip idlestop in the 80s. No engine running: no heater/defroster, no aircon, and of course the battery charging problem. Mid 80s when daytime headlights became the law in several countries, they quit idlestop

there is no more or less enginebraking on pcx than on my yammy135, yammy Tmax500cc, airblade PGM Fi or suzuki125cc, all with cvt auto

PCX aint no hybrid, it only stores one kind of energy (gasoline) to move vehicle, and it has only one engine to move vehicle (gasoline)

great small scooter though

No heater or aircon, hehe I don't think we need to worry about that. I am just joking around, I know you know that. Thanks for pointing that out.

Okay good to know on the engine braking.

It is hybrid in the sense that it not homogeneously running the engine for the duration of the ride. That hybrid-ness gives 5.5% fuel economy. Also there may be a slight hybrid contribution from charging the battery more often, and less on acceleration, but this contribution is very insignificant unless perhaps if the duration of the idle stops are very short. But we know the idle stops don't even start until after 5 seconds of stop, thus it is unlikely that the idle stops are going to be very short in duration.

I read on motorcyclephilippines.com that someone estimated price will be P130,000 or so. But I don't have any confirmation of that or availability. I am in Davao, so even less choice. Will let you know if I find out.

[GungaDin]

we are discussing PCX features and claimed features. My posts are based on my rider experience and Hondas info. and relax, PCX is not faster than your yammy E 135

PTL for small mercies.

[shelby]

we are discussing PCX features and claimed features. My posts are based on my rider experience and Hondas info. and relax, PCX is not faster than your yammy E 135

But it is way more technically advanced

I have been holding off buying another bike until I can get one in the Philippines that has fuel injection and isn't a big bike (which are extremely expensive here, no parts, theft magnet, police magnet, etc).

For me I wouldn't even consider buying another carburetor bike. I don't have time to hassle with it. And I want a bike that will start when I take it up in the mountains where it is very cold with fog.

Another big factor is I don't want to lift the seat to fill the fuel tank. I had a Raider 150 that caught on fire when the fuel attendant dropped a tiny single drop of fuel on the tank and it evaporated down onto the electric wires that run under the seat. Bike should have exploded but I put out the smoldering fire with my gloves. Plus the hassle of removing what ever you may have bungee corded to back of the seat. And generally looking and feeling stupid with the seat high in the air and all your under-seat storage visible to everyone.

Also on long trips, I hated not being able to extend my legs forward.

Also in general, CVTs mean no more weekly chain tightening. Another hassle I don't want.

I had really been waiting for cross-over genre that the PCX creates in the LOW PRICED SEGMENT (in asia, yeah we had the 150cc scooters with all the good features but very expensive). Of course I would like it a lot more in 150cc or even 175cc would be about perfect. But with the CVT, the low-end torque issues are much less bothersome in theory. A 175cc would give us all the top speed we could safely use here, and also sufficient for large back riders. Is it true that 150cc PCX will be coming soon? Or is that an imported 150cc Yahama that will be coming to Thailand?

What engine size do you all think would be perfect balance (not too much mass rendering the bike less maneuverable)? And are you all not bothered with hassle of carburetors? I like to read more about what other people think are important based on their experiences. Why is fast important, do you mean acceleration or do you mean top speed?

[katabeachbum]

we are discussing PCX features and claimed features. My posts are based on my rider experience and Hondas info. and relax, PCX is not faster than your yammy E 135

But it is way more technically advanced

yepp it is, but at a price

[katabeachbum]

we are discussing PCX features and claimed features. My posts are based on my rider experience and Hondas info. and relax, PCX is not faster than your yammy E 135

But it is way more technically advanced

I have been holding off buying another bike until I can get one in the Philippines that has fuel injection and isn't a big bike (which are extremely expensive here, no parts, theft magnet, police magnet, etc).

For me I wouldn't even consider buying another carburetor bike. I don't have time to hassle with it. And I want a bike that will start when I take it up in the mountains where it is very cold with fog.

Another big factor is I don't want to lift the seat to fill the fuel tank. I had a Raider 150 that caught on fire when the fuel attendant dropped a tiny single drop of fuel on the tank and it evaporated down onto the electric wires that run under the seat. Bike should have exploded but I put out the smoldering fire with my gloves. Plus the hassle of removing what ever you may have bungee corded to back of the seat. And generally looking and feeling stupid with the seat high in the air and all your under-seat storage visible to everyone.

Also on long trips, I hated not being able to extend my legs forward.

Also in general, CVTs mean no more weekly chain tightening. Another hassle I don't want.

I had really been waiting for cross-over genre that the PCX creates in the LOW PRICED SEGMENT (in asia, yeah we had the 150cc scooters with all the good features but very expensive). Of course I would like it a lot more in 150cc or even 175cc would be about perfect. But with the CVT, the low-end torque issues are much less bothersome in theory. A 175cc would give us all the top speed we could safely use here, and also sufficient for large back riders. Is it true that 150cc PCX will be coming soon? Or is that an imported 150cc Yahama that will be coming to Thailand?

What engine size do you all think would be perfect balance (not too much mass rendering the bike less maneuverable)? And are you all not bothered with hassle of carburetors? I like to read more about what other people think are important based on their experiences. Why is fast important, do you mean acceleration or do you mean top speed?

neither of these 110-135cc scooters have tyres or brakes for more than 80 kmh, me think. In comparison I stop much faster from 120kmh riding my Ninja 650r than 80 kmh riding PCX/ Yammy 135/airblade PGM Fi. So I dare to say Ninja is safer, as long as I keep 120 top speed, which I do wearing shorts and slippers

PCX is already more heavy than anyone else in size, so larger engine would have to come with dual front discs (to small rims for larger disc). thats another 20-30 kg

when I say fast for these scooters, top speed is not of interest. acceleration is. power with passanger up the phuket hills is what really makes the difference. some autobikes just dont go up the hills at all loaded with 160kg.

[shelby]

neither of these 110-135cc scooters have tyres or brakes for more than 80 kmh, me think. In comparison I stop much faster from 120kmh riding my Ninja 650r than 80 kmh riding PCX/ Yammy 135/airblade PGM Fi. So I dare to say Ninja is safer, as long as I keep 120 top speed, which I do wearing shorts and slippers

PCX is already more heavy than anyone else in size, so larger engine would have to come with dual front discs (to small rims for larger disc). thats another 20-30 kg

Or give up some underseat storage for a lower seat then raise the bike suspension, and increase the rim size. Tradeoffs. Perhaps could make the passenger seat up high, to gain back the storage. Also the larger displacement will add weight even if its just a longer stroke because you need heavier flywheel, etc.

when I say fast for these scooters, top speed is not of interest. acceleration is. power with passanger up the phuket hills is what really makes the difference. some autobikes just dont go up the hills at all loaded with 160kg.

Yeah even my Raider 150cc with DOHC wouldn't sustain on the hills, I think this was because lack of liquid cooling, and the lack of low-end torque made it very tiresome in the hills.

What about putting a low boost supercharger (not turbocharger) so you don't increase the top end speed? But then you need to upgrade the CVT probably, but maybe you could get away without upgrading it, if you keep your boost level very mild, just enough to equal a 150cc on the low-end torque. Hmmm...I wonder how much it would cost to produce a bolt-on kit? Might be popular if low-cost? But again if boost too much, need all the components to be upgrade, including flywheel.

There really isn't a good substitute for a big bike for long rides in the hills. Now you've got me wondering again if I should fork over the cash for a big bike, but it probably be good to have the scooter for around town any way. Then I still want the fuel injection.

Again from the Honda site:

To reduce friction from power generation, and to ensure strong vehicle acceleration when equipped with the "idling stop system", the charging voltage is lowered to 12 volts from the normally regulated voltage of 14.5 volts for a prescribed period of time. In doing so, the battery is not charged during vehicle acceleration, and charged only during constant speed or deceleration. Charging during deceleration is especially effective because it means an efficient use of energy.

There is a logical inconsistency between "for a prescribed period of time" and "charged only during constant speed or deceleration". I think we can not know what they mean exactly. That paragraph is ambiguous.

Another good resource contrasting DC versus AC generators:

rowand dot net slash shop slash tech slash alternatorgeneratortheory dot htm

[shelby]

...PCX is already more heavy than anyone else in size, so larger engine would have to come with dual front discs (to small rims for larger disc). thats another 20-30 kg

when I say fast for these scooters, top speed is not of interest. acceleration is. power with passanger up the phuket hills is what really makes the difference. some autobikes just dont go up the hills at all loaded with 160kg.

Actually maybe they could put a 1" large rim on front by increasing the fork rake (more chopperish) but that would mess with the handling.

I read in the other PCX thread that your gf (with large breasts ) is 55kg and you must therefor be 105kg, so seems to me the PCX is too small and underpowered for you. How about the Kymco Xciting 250? Looks to be about double the price of the PCX and 40% less fuel economy (same range), but you get the dual discs and disc in rear plus a significant windscreen and with a storage box on back you'd have a bike capable of touring. Downside is 185kg versus the 135kg for the PCX, but if you are 105 kg, then it is weight comparative to riding with your gf on the back when you are riding solo on the Xciting. Apparently the Kymco Xciting has a good reputation and reviews in the USA. I see it is available here in Philippines, so must be available in Thailand?? Wouldn't that be the middle scooter between the PCX and TMAX500?

I had forgotten about the Xciting. Now I remember I saw it at a motorcycle show in 2009 here in Philippines and somewhere in my junk I should have a business card with the info on where to buy it locally.

[katabeachbum]

...PCX is already more heavy than anyone else in size, so larger engine would have to come with dual front discs (to small rims for larger disc). thats another 20-30 kg

when I say fast for these scooters, top speed is not of interest. acceleration is. power with passanger up the phuket hills is what really makes the difference. some autobikes just dont go up the hills at all loaded with 160kg.

Actually maybe they could put a 1" large rim on front by increasing the fork rake (more chopperish) but that would mess with the handling.

I read in the other PCX thread that your gf (with large breasts ) is 55kg and you must therefor be 105kg, so seems to me the PCX is too small and underpowered for you. How about the Kymco Xciting 250? Looks to be about double the price of the PCX and 40% less fuel economy (same range), but you get the dual discs and disc in rear plus a significant windscreen and with a storage box on back you'd have a bike capable of touring. Downside is 185kg versus the 135kg for the PCX, but if you are 105 kg, then it is weight comparative to riding with your gf on the back when you are riding solo on the Xciting. Apparently the Kymco Xciting has a good reputation and reviews in the USA. I see it is available here in Philippines, so must be available in Thailand?? Wouldn't that be the middle scooter between the PCX and TMAX500?

I had forgotten about the Xciting. Now I remember I saw it at a motorcycle show in 2009 here in Philippines and somewhere in my junk I should have a business card with the info on where to buy it locally.

spot on, 104 kg

many interesting auto bikes around, but only the ones being marketed by Honda, yammy and Suzuki are interesting to own in LOS. aftermarket and secondhanvalue.

I even gave up having unique big bikes her since kawasaki started to make and market Ninja 650R in LOS. half the price, and great aftermarket.

[shelby]

...PCX is already more heavy than anyone else in size, so larger engine would have to come with dual front discs (to small rims for larger disc). thats another 20-30 kg

when I say fast for these scooters, top speed is not of interest. acceleration is. power with passanger up the phuket hills is what really makes the difference. some autobikes just dont go up the hills at all loaded with 160kg.

Actually maybe they could put a 1" large rim on front by increasing the fork rake (more chopperish) but that would mess with the handling.

I read in the other PCX thread that your gf (with large breasts ) is 55kg and you must therefor be 105kg, so seems to me the PCX is too small and underpowered for you. How about the Kymco Xciting 250? Looks to be about double the price of the PCX and 40% less fuel economy (same range), but you get the dual discs and disc in rear plus a significant windscreen and with a storage box on back you'd have a bike capable of touring. Downside is 185kg versus the 135kg for the PCX, but if you are 105 kg, then it is weight comparative to riding with your gf on the back when you are riding solo on the Xciting. Apparently the Kymco Xciting has a good reputation and reviews in the USA. I see it is available here in Philippines, so must be available in Thailand?? Wouldn't that be the middle scooter between the PCX and TMAX500?

I had forgotten about the Xciting. Now I remember I saw it at a motorcycle show in 2009 here in Philippines and somewhere in my junk I should have a business card with the info on where to buy it locally.

spot on, 104 kg

many interesting auto bikes around, but only the ones being marketed by Honda, yammy and Suzuki are interesting to own in LOS. aftermarket and secondhanvalue.

I even gave up having unique big bikes her since kawasaki started to make and market Ninja 650R in LOS. half the price, and great aftermarket.

Strange, we have the Xciting 500 here in Philippines with official Kymco after sales support:

http://www.kymco.com.ph/html/kymcoproducts.html

But I can not find any Kymco website for Thailand. I thought Thailand always had more choice than Philippines for motorcycles.

You would think with all the TMax 500 sold in Thailand, they would try to compete on price (roughly 1/2 the 550,000 price of TMax if convert from pesos to baht). Maybe it has to do with politics and Honda having its manufacturing in Thailand?

[shelby]

many interesting auto bikes around, but only the ones being marketed by Honda, yammy and Suzuki are interesting to own in LOS. aftermarket and secondhanvalue.

There is a branded Kymco dealer here, but I did inquire around and yes apparently the resale value is crap. So if I buy one, I better be sure it is what I want, or I should lowball on a used one. I think it is PHP340,000 (240,000 baht) for a new Xciting 250, and I see a 2009 used for PHP199,000 (143,000 baht) which hasn't sold after some months.

No PCX yet in Philippines

And note pretty much everything has crap resale value in Philippines. You lose 50% value of anything when you drive off the show room floor (because most people buy on credit new). And forget trying to sell a house for anything less than 50% of what you invested in it. <joke>And for a wife, you will lose more than 100% of your investment.</joke>

[shelby]

Just got the corrected price, PHP250,000 (180,000 baht) brand new for Xciting 250. Apparently the PHP340,000 was for the Xciting 500.

So that is roughly 2.5 times the price of the PCX 125 in Thailand. And 1/3 the price of the TMax 500. I have read that the imported price of the PCX 125 will be roughly PHP130,000 or about 30% markup from your price in Thailand (assuming Honda doesn't bring it to Philippines, which is unlikely given very small market for it here). So the Xciting 250 would be 2 times the price for roughly twice as much bike. However, as in all DEPRECIATING assets that are more expensive, the absolute amount of loss will be greater on resale, as will be the absolute cost of maintenance.

But that is just like life. You pay for quality.

[shelby]

Apparently the SYM GTS 300i EVO will be available in the Philippines sometime in 2010 for estimated PHP250,000:

twistngo dot com slash reviews slash issue_72 dot htm

sym dot com dot tw slash eng slash showroom slash index dot php?mode=brand&tid=1&bid=53

justgottascoot dot com slash symrv250 dot htm (GTS 250)

sym-usa dot com/pdf/rv dot pdf (read else where that seat height is 760mm)

Advantages over the Kymco Xciting 250, are 45 liter LIGHTED underseat storage (versus 19.5 liter), and significantly more storage up front with a big glovebox, 1 inch lower seat height, fog lights, more power from 40kph up but less off the line, body mounted mirrors, apparently (based on current GTS 250 non-EFI) better resale value (more popular) in Philippines than the Kymco (I think because of seat height and storage). Disadvantage is only single disc brake in front.

[shelby]

I read that most CVT have the motor integral on the swing arm, so there is a much larger mass (than a chain or even shaft driven) that must move up and down with the mass of the rear wheel. Thus on a bumpy or rough road, the rear wheel will spend less time in contact with the road, giving theoretically poorer handling and control. Some claim this is mitigated by the lower center-of-gravity of scooters (which gives higher maneuverability for) and the typical "around town" lower speed usage. I know from test driving older Viragos with shaft-drive, that the rear wheel hops off the ground when down-shifting.

Apparently the Burgman 650 and T-Max 500, have engine stationary with respect to swing arm, using more complex linkage to the CVT. The Burgman 400 and some others (Honda SH150i?) have dubious improvements such as place the motor on a swing arm with mono-shock or multi-link swing arm.

I suppose the size of the motor affects the degree to which this is a problem.

[shelby]

You do not have SYM in Thailand? They have apparently a more ISO and automated factory than BMW. And I see the new GTS EVO 300i will have 5 point multi-link rear suspension.

And a new EVO JR (175cc with large front disc brake!) coming for just perhaps 15-25% more than the Honda PCX will probably cost in Philippines:

http://www.motorcyclephilippines.com/forum...628#post4521628

The Kymco and SYM Taiwan brands are comparable to Japanese brands in quality. And now they are ramping up their dealer networks and reputation. I think they will successfully compete against the Japs, because they can leverage China (Chinese are all about family connections and networking).

So I wouldn't hold a static on the big 4 from Japan holding on to their monopoly over reputation, re-sale value, and after sales support. I was mistaken about the re-sale value of these scooters in Philippines. They are selling roughly about -25% used if in "like new" condition and within a 2 - 3 years old. The Kymco Xciting might be a slower seller because of the higher seat not being compatible with Asians under 5'9". The SYM JR and GTS EVO both have low seat heights (not as low as some choppers though).

Off topic: I calculated today that the USA, UK, and some other european nations can not escape defaulting on their govt bonds, even with 100% tax on income and sales. The numbers are simple and there is no conjecture. We are headed for an implosion of western society and rise of 3rd world. Any capital should be moved out the western nations before the desperate govts resort to capital controls. Times are changing...

[Richard-BKK]

So who is this Kymco dealer?

[mic6ard]

Oh right guys. I really need help here. Just got to Chiang Mai, from the US for work. Looking for a decent scooter or AT bikes. I'm lazy, and don't really want to keep working the clutch on a 'normal' bike. I'm kinda large for a Thai, 180cm @ 83kg. Tried the Click-i felt way too small,love the nimbleness of it though. Right now my thought is on the PCX. Anyone got anything else I can get comfy in?Just to clarify, it's going to be mostly the 'super highway' cruising to work.

[katabeachbum]

Oh right guys. I really need help here. Just got to Chiang Mai, from the US for work. Looking for a decent scooter or AT bikes. I'm lazy, and don't really want to keep working the clutch on a 'normal' bike. I'm kinda large for a Thai, 180cm @ 83kg. Tried the Click-i felt way too small,love the nimbleness of it though. Right now my thought is on the PCX. Anyone got anything else I can get comfy in?Just to clarify, it's going to be mostly the 'super highway' cruising to work.

PCX and Yamaha Nouvo Elegance 135cc seems to be your best shots.

[PeaceBlondie]

We traded our Yamaha Elegance and 2 other bikes for the PCX and we're very happy.

[katabeachbum]

We traded our Yamaha Elegance and 2 other bikes for the PCX and we're very happy.

hmm, in another post you said how much you disliked the pcx

[PeaceBlondie]

Sorry. Mixed my pronouns. The boyfriend traded in his scooters and his Phantom. He loves his PCX. I only ride on pillion. At least we have more parking spaces now. I love my CBR150.

[katabeachbum]

has anyone fitted a luggage rack/top box rack to PCX? tryed to figure out how to do it, but its all build in. beautiful plastic shapes, but....

[Orita]

While the PXC is the most technically advanced scooter in Thailand at the moment, it's sitting position is not for

a large individual with long legs. Due to the lumbar support, one is forced to assume an unnatural position, that

will get uncomfortable in a short while. I am 6 ' 2 and can't put my feet at the forward rest, arms and knees are bend

unnatural. Basically, I should sit exactly where the lumbar support is. Honda should have several seat options, if the PCX is

intended for a global market.

[katabeachbum]

While the PXC is the most technically advanced scooter in Thailand at the moment, it's sitting position is not for

a large individual with long legs. Due to the lumbar support, one is forced to assume an unnatural position, that

will get uncomfortable in a short while. I am 6 ' 2 and can't put my feet at the forward rest, arms and knees are bend

unnatural. Basically, I should sit exactly where the lumbar support is. Honda should have several seat options, if the PCX is

intended for a global market.

agree, one of yammy Elegance 135 cc advantage is sitting position/legroom

need some more scoots around here, so looked at very inexpensive Suzuki Step 125cc yesterday. more legroom and faster off the line than PCX at 34.900 baht all included.

Promotion, seased production, replaced by Skydrive and Jelato both with injection. its tiny, but seating/legroom is good and so is power. no quality issues at all on the 3 year old we already have, even original battery still good.

[beginner]

While the PXC is the most technically advanced scooter in Thailand at the moment, it's sitting position is not for

a large individual with long legs. Due to the lumbar support, one is forced to assume an unnatural position, that

will get uncomfortable in a short while. I am 6 ' 2 and can't put my feet at the forward rest, arms and knees are bend

unnatural. Basically, I should sit exactly where the lumbar support is. Honda should have several seat options, if the PCX is

intended for a global market.

Yes I agree.

The seat forces a long legged person to sit in an upright position rather like an old lady on a pushbike. It is very uncomfortable after even a short ride.

As the handlebars are bent backwards in a chopper style, the riders arms are also bent into a near ninety degree angle which is unnatural and very tiring.

In Pattaya some of the hire companies have already removed the lumbar support and recovered the seats to cover the two holes left by unbolting the pad. Otherwise the storage bin would fill with water in the rain.

The first tweaks to the design must surely include either straighter handlebars or repositioning them forward and a new seat design.

I found that the unusually upright driving position made it hard to drive over 80kph as the wind buffeting was too great.

It strikes me as strange that a company as 'switched on' as Honda can make such a fundamental design error as that seat. This is a bike aimed at world markets not just Asians. My partner found it too big and heavy and much prefers smaller lighter bikes. Every tall farang owner I have spoken to comments on the seat and driving position unfavourably.

Otherwise a good bike but not as convenient for carrying stuff as a Yamaha Nouvo Elegance. No hooks, no fitting to attach helmets and bags apart from a little and inadequate device that attaches to the seat mechanism.

On a positive note. The rear view mirrors are excellent for a broad shouldered farang. If they are a standard fitting I would advise riders of all bikes to investigate fitting a pair. They give a clear rear view with no blind spot. They are wider than most and this restricts your ability to slide through traffic gaps but they increase your vision considerably.

The combi brakes are also outstanding. In Pattaya they can be the difference between crash or no crash.

A good bike but by no means perfect. The new Yamahas due soon may be better. Someone described ithe PCX as the BMW of scooters. I think a better analogy is the Mercedes of Scooters. Reliable, worthy but essentially boring. An old man's transport. A bit like a japanese fridge. It works with precision and is probably totally reliable but I don't think many people will take the long way home just for the fun of riding it.

[angiud]

I think a better analogy is the Mercedes of Scooters. Reliable, worthy but essentially boring. An old man's transport.

Mercedes? Boring?

What do you smoke?

[mic6ard]

I think a better analogy is the Mercedes of Scooters. Reliable, worthy but essentially boring. An old man's transport.

Mercedes? Boring?

What do you smoke?

The standard mercs, i.e. the C, E and S, classes are boring. Everything is too luxurious. Soft steering, soft brakes and gas. It's not something to just throw around a corner. While Bimmers are very capable of more aggressive styles.

Please note that I didn't mention the 55s or AMG mercs, as those are way aggressive. So I have to agree with this one, PCX is going to be boring if it's not your style, but if you're looking for a more 'stately' ride then this one might work. Plus they look sufficiently different than others on the road. Definite attention grabber.

[beginner]

I think a better analogy is the Mercedes of Scooters. Reliable, worthy but essentially boring. An old man's transport.

Mercedes? Boring?

What do you smoke?

Yes. OK. I should have said 'certain underpowered Mercedes'.

Nissan Sunny a better comparison.

When Honda put a bigger engine in, it will be more fun. Its underpowered. Too heavy for 125cc.

Unless you are thrilled by the pointless? stop/start mechanism then the Mark 1 PCX is OK but hardly exciting.

[angiud]

Why a vehicle must be aggressive, can it be only reliable, luxurious, strong, ecological, etc??

BTW, I bought a PCX a month ago, and I love it.

PS: Yes, is not aggressive, but is wonderful to ride.

I dream of a 250 cc version.

[Orita]

The idea of a scooter originated in Italy and is meant to carry a driver in city clothing through urban traffic

over a short distance.

Any talk about power, speed and excitement should be reserved for sport motorcycles in the 1000cc class.

To me, a scooter should be like an household appliance, that one uses without thinking too much about it.

A tool that does the job, requiring only minimum maintenance, care and fuss.

In Thailand, comparing power output of various scooter models seems highly academic. They all have "no"

power, but yet are all perfectly capable of doing the intended job.