"Culprits" is a particularly ironic term in that I moved to Thailand specifically to help Lao Hmong peoples emigrate to America.

My hat's off to you.

You should relate that part of your story in The Lost Boys thread. I would find it rather interesting, I am sure.

It is hardly worthy of a thread as I operated in no official capacity but as someone with an interest in the plight of the Hmong and Montagnard peoples and as someone totally ignorant of the impediments to advancing their cause. Except for a few occasions where I was asked to act as a representative for one group my modest actions were those of a private citizen.

Like many of the posters in this thread I originally felt that the United States was largely culpable for their long term neglect and refugee status and I was ashamed of the Clinton administrations policy of forced repatriations. Only later did I learn that this policy, together with the forestalling of Montagnard emigration efforts by Senator John Kerry was in order to serve Democratic party benefactors doing business with Vietnam. This revelation and many more to follow taught me that the needs of the Hmong were not even close to being the most important interests that needed serving in order to affect "progress".

Under Bush the issue began to get traction again and I turned up my letter writing campaign, both to congressional figures in the US and with Hmong advocacy groups both in the US and Thailand, all of whom work at the "periphery" and whose motives, I would later learn are not always what they appear to be..

The next year (2002) I would move to Thailand to meet many of the people I had corresponded with. These included Former Thai Generals who had served in Lao and old families of US/Thai/CIA interests in Lao. All had attached themselves to this “cause” put over the course of several months many of the things I learned didn’t seem to square with a successful effort but seemed to have more to do with seeking grants for this or that project. Mostly for pet projects to build housing for displaced Hmong here in Thailand. I was asked to lobby congressional figures on these carpetbaggers behalf, which I declined to do. During this same time I met with several junkets of Hmong business and political leaders from the US. It was apparent their primary interest was to raise money for combat, with the aim of carving out a Hmong economic zone inside Laos. Boy, did I feel stupid. Especially when the cameras started coming out.

I did continue my letter writing campaign and visited Wat Tham Krabok frequently, where I met and got to know many of the UNHCR people who did the "processing". In my opinion they take a very cavalier approach to their work but it must be said, it was clear they were unwelcome by the Thais, who were almost hostile towards them. I credit the US with having the clout to get them in and keep them there. I met two US congressmen on junkets here during that time and it was explained to me the issue in the US that was holding the move up was whether Democrat crony Housing and Urban Development contractors or Republican crony "church groups" would be the lead agencies in the movement and housing of the Hmong. I never considered myself a naïve person but I sure got another lesson in real politik there.

Anyhow, as I said in another post. The USA and the UNHCR have a very specific protocol on receiving Lao Hmong refugees. All registered refugees ,as ascertained by a UNHCR screening process are eligible for emigration to the US. I learned the US State department is very good at what they do, but they are constrained by political and budgetary realities. I learned that the UNHCR is not as high minded as their name might imply and I learned that parasites will attach themselves to any host, no matter how weak.

Eventually in 2004 emigration from Wat Tham Krabok began and ALL registered refugees were placed. That the US will still take refugees that are now 2-3 generations removed from their original allies is to their credit. The impediments to more emigrations are the Thai government allowing the UNHCR in to register refugees. The US has no standing till then.

The best that can be said is that the Hmong have established quite a large community in the US now, and with concentrated population groups comes voting and lobbying power. I wish them the very best.

It is amazing that someone who claims to have shoeboxes full of University degrees has been reduced to such childish taunting, but as they say, no one can teach you common sense.

I did not mean to insult your father, and I apologize. I cleaned toilets in the military and as a civilian.

To rephrase it: After the USA stole a third of Mexico by illegal violent actions, they repented by allowing Mexicans to serve in its own wars, and employing millions of them in entry-level positions.

If it matters, two of my children married Mexican-Americans.

thanks for that, and i am sure he cleaned his share of toilets while in the military. reagrding the mexican civilizations It may be worth noting that After 4,000 years, these civilizations were destroyed with the arrival of the Spaniards in 1519. For three centuries, Mexico was colonized by Spain, during which time the majority of its indigenous population died off. (from wikipedia) so the americans took land as the victors in a war but the spaniards and french did far worse.

You are right, that the Spaniards and even the French took over a very long line series of Olmec, Mayan, Mixtec, and Totonaca conquests. Mestizos are still reminded of that. The pacifist Mayans I lived with claimed ancestral periods of peace, too.

http://www.steppenwolf.com/lyr/mnnster.html#MONTER reminds us that the best spirit, of freedom and justice, still seeks the best.

i like Americans because the majority of them are unlike Odysseus G. and/or Koheesti

Considering your low opinion of America and Americans I'll take that as a compliment.

America had its share of lunatics too.

That was my point earlier.....problem being that most of those lunatics were running the country.

I forgot to mention, I like Americans because they build good rocket ships and some of them even make it back to earth.

I like Americans because they build good rocket ships and some of them even make it back to earth.

Have we met? Brisbane '86 ?

I like Americans because they build good rocket ships and some of them even make it back to earth.

Have we met? Brisbane '86 ?

Was I tall dark and handsome and you blonde with big titts?

Geeze I've missed ya

Several Americans on here agree my comments. Sadly the usual culprits can't take any comment against America

Although this is Outside the Box, that does not make this forum a free-for-all. Calling people who don't agree with you "culprits" is inferring criminality and pushes this closer to an all-out flame-fest.

On all sides of this issue, and any other issue, let's try to debate the facts and stay away from the name calling.

While others have done this, too, in this case, the words "Sadly, the usual pro-US posters can't take ..." would have conveyed the exact same meaning without resorting to pejoratives.

"usual culprits" was not meant to be pejorative, it is used often on tv.

what contribution do you have for the comments in my post. as you say let's debate the facts as i suggested.

caf

I like Americans because they build good rocket ships and some of them even make it back to earth.

Have we met? Brisbane '86 ?

Was I tall dark and handsome and you blonde with big titts?

Geeze I've missed ya

Never mind.

It is hardly worthy of a thread as I operated in no official capacity but as someone with an interest in the plight of the Hmong and Montagnard peoples and as someone totally ignorant of the impediments to advancing their cause. Except for a few occasions where I was asked to act as a representative for one group my modest actions were those of a private citizen.

Like many of the posters in this thread I originally felt that the United States was largely culpable for their long term neglect and refugee status and I was ashamed of the Clinton administrations policy of forced repatriations. Only later did I learn that this policy, together with the forestalling of Montagnard emigration efforts by Senator John Kerry was in order to serve Democratic party benefactors doing business with Vietnam. This revelation and many more to follow taught me that the needs of the Hmong were not even close to being the most important interests that needed serving in order to affect "progress".

.........

The best that can be said is that the Hmong have established quite a large community in the US now, and with concentrated population groups comes voting and lobbying power. I wish them the very best.

Your post in its entirety was pretty interesting.

It is hardly worthy of a thread as I operated in no official capacity but as someone with an interest in the plight of the Hmong and Montagnard peoples and as someone totally ignorant of the impediments to advancing their cause. Except for a few occasions where I was asked to act as a representative for one group my modest actions were those of a private citizen.

Like many of the posters in this thread I originally felt that the United States was largely culpable for their long term neglect and refugee status and I was ashamed of the Clinton administrations policy of forced repatriations. Only later did I learn that this policy, together with the forestalling of Montagnard emigration efforts by Senator John Kerry was in order to serve Democratic party benefactors doing business with Vietnam. This revelation and many more to follow taught me that the needs of the Hmong were not even close to being the most important interests that needed serving in order to affect "progress".

.........

The best that can be said is that the Hmong have established quite a large community in the US now, and with concentrated population groups comes voting and lobbying power. I wish them the very best.

Your post in its entirety was pretty interesting.

Yes, it was a good one, lannarebirth. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

QUOTE (LaoPo @ 2010-01-10 19:39:29) I kindly invite you to give me ONE link where I bash America, even the slightest hint.

LaoPo

There was obvious proof that you were being dishonest. You said that you had never bashed America - "even a hint" - and without much searching, I almost immediately produced a post that proved otherwise - and there were more.

caf has no proof that I am a "culprit", but I did have proof that you had done something that you had repeatedly and vehemently denied (and don't forget that you pretty much called lannarebirth a liar for exposing you, so what are you on about)?

There was obvious proof that you were being dishonest. You said that you had never bashed America - "even a hint" - and without much searching, I almost immediately produced a post that proved otherwise - and there were more.

caf has no proof that I am a "culprit", but I did have proof that you had done something that you had repeatedly and vehemently denied (and don't forget that you pretty much called lannarebirth a liar for exposing you, so what are you on about)?

Now you start again, even if I didn't address my post to you. You're calling me again "dishonest" which is a little softer than calling me a liar but you're improving. Good for you!

But, if YOU think I was bashing America in this post (from 5 years ago), I suggest you go back to school and learn -proper- reading again:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Dollar-Do-t2...017#entry238017

And about your other comment:I read the word culprit and was comparing it with liar.

I feel (but I'm not native English) that calling someone a liar is pretty strong, a lot stronger than culprit.

I called Lannarebirth a liar ? WHERE?

You know what Ulysses G: you're stirring things up and you're very good at it and I've seen you calling others (even Americans, even a Mod) America haters too.

You're unbelievable but it says more about yourself than me. For you it's difficult to stay correct and polite, for me it's not.

LaoPo

You told lannarebirth to give just one example of bashing America and he refused to bother because he knew that you would not admit it - even if it were right in front of you in black and white.

I was foolish enough to waste my time looking for an example, but you denied it and immediately proved him right.

You only fool me one time. I'm not wasting any more time on you.

You told lannarebirth to give just one example of bashing America and he refused to bother because he knew that you would not admit it - even if it were right in front of you in black and white.

I was foolish enough to waste my time looking for an example, but you denied it and immediately proved him right.

You only fool me one time. I'm not wasting any more time on you.

Good to hear and that's mutual; as long as you learn to stay correct and polite we all can get along and respect each other.

It's not so difficult you know, for most.

LaoPo

"I'm not wasting any more time on you." a Ulysses quote

With the time thus saved, are you prepared to debate the topic. You have not done so up till now. I accept you are not the only one.

In a previous post I made a similar comment briefly, and then went on to develop the debate. What was your reaction and that of some others - only to keep baiting and stalking.

And yes you are right you are foolish because I am not responding to your latest baitings. I will hold a respectful debate with you but nothing else.

I have a very good friend in Chiangmai who happens to be an American.

And in the same way that many posters have commented that a minority of farangs here give the rest of us a bad name, the same applies to some Americans.

I suspect you will now spend time drafting a clever off topic reply after writing a few pms; but i think we would all prefer if you actually entered the debate.

caf

Last warning (and to make it clear, I am making this post as a moderator without regard to the topic of the thread or my personal views.)

I issued one gentle warning already after numerous personal pejoratives had been made by many posters, and one finally was the straw which broke the camel's back. That specific one was not the worst, but it was the most recent one at the time.

So this is the last public warning.  Argue the points all you want.  Disagree with others all you want.  But any more name-calling and/or other flames (direct or couched in "civilized" terms) will result in both formal action being taken and this thread being closed.

Many great books

Many great films

Many great TV shows

Many great rock bands

Lots of great food

Lots of amazingly beautiful scenery

Lots of good, freindly people

On and on and on.

caf Posted today, 2010-01-14 10:0600

i think we would all prefer if you actually entered the debate.

I think that I already have.

I agree Ulysses. But your point could apply to all countries I suppose as you do not elaborate.

Specifically I think that Elvis will never be surpassed. So America has my music vote, second would be the beatles in the uk in that they showed great technical ability. both artists score high on an enjoyment factor, elvis i think personally has the edge overall

I prefer French and Thai food to American, but I think they make the best breakfasts in the world. Do they still, have Dennys? The over-emphasis on quantity is not to my taste but food tastes are very personal.

godfather would get my vote as best book adaptation - for enjoyment and the technical production.

i don't like the tv shows but that again is down to taste. my favourite books are english but there is good french russian and american literature.

So, yes on 3 of your points

caf

Specifically I think that Elvis will never be surpassed. So America has my music vote, second would be the beatles in the uk in that they showed great technical ability. both artists score high on an enjoyment factor, elvis i think personally has the edge overall

Ah, this has been a Beatles week for me. I've already listened to most of their regular albums, their first two "greatest hits" albums (62-66 & 67-70) and now I'm in the 2nd day of listening to their Anthology Vols. 1, 2 & 3. The Anthologies are great stuff.

Lots of amazingly beautiful scenery

I like Americans 'cos it allows us Canadians t feel better about ourselves

Statements like this demean both countries, and shows an insecure national identity.

If we can't feel good about our own country without looking at the flaws of our neighbours then we aren't trying hard enough.

I agree Ulysses. But your point could apply to all countries I suppose as you do not elaborate.

Specifically I think that Elvis will never be surpassed. So America has my music vote, second would be the beatles in the uk in that they showed great technical ability. both artists score high on an enjoyment factor, elvis i think personally has the edge overall

I prefer French and Thai food to American, but I think they make the best breakfasts in the world. Do they still, have Dennys? The over-emphasis on quantity is not to my taste but food tastes are very personal.

godfather would get my vote as best book adaptation - for enjoyment and the technical production.

i don't like the tv shows but that again is down to taste. my favourite books are english but there is good french russian and american literature.

So, yes on 3 of your points

caf

I grew up with Elvis and the Beatles. The earliest song I can remember on the radio is "Goodnight Irene", I suspect by The Weavers.

I suppose I heard every type of "hit parade" music when it was first released, from the very beginning of rock and roll.

If I have a preference now it's for Country music for which there is only America.

 but I think they make the best breakfasts in the world. Do they still, have Dennys? 

 Uh-oh!  Now you've gotten me turned against you big time.  You just lost all credibility!!!

As one comedian said on television a few years ago, Denny's isn't a place to which you ever head out intending to go, it is merely a place you end up (when you find out there is no alternative).  

   

I like Americans 'cos it allows us Canadians t feel better about ourselves

Statements like this demean both countries, and shows an insecure national identity.

If we can't feel good about our own country without looking at the flaws of our neighbours then we aren't trying hard enough.

I took that statement as a joke.  I hope I am right and that he wasn't serious!  

but I think they make the best breakfasts in the world. Do they still, have Dennys?

Uh-oh! Now you've gotten me turned against you big time. You just lost all credibility!!!

As one comedian said on television a few years ago, Denny's isn't a place to which you ever head out intending to go, it is merely a place you end up (when you find out there is no alternative).

Maybe, but it serves its purpose. When it's 3 a.m., the bars are closing and you need some affordable food in your stomach then places like Denny's are great.

Lots of amazingly beautiful scenery

Sounds like someone has never been to America: Highway One on the California Coast, The Blue Ridge Mountains, Hawaii, the mountains of New England, upstate New York, The Grand Canyon, Yosemite Park... I could go on forever.

Lots of amazingly beautiful scenery

Sounds like someone has never been to America: Highway One on the California Coast, The Blue Ridge Mountains, Hawaii, the mountains of New England, upstate New York, The Grand Canyon, Yosemite Park... I could go on forever.

ummm no...I have been many places. I just never heard someone say I like americans because of the scenery.

Perhaps you meant the lawns some maintain? Because that would be some scenery they could take credit for ....I guess

Sorry, I got a what I like about "America", instead of "Americans" answer in there.

Lots of amazingly beautiful scenery

Sounds like someone has never been to America: Highway One on the California Coast, The Blue Ridge Mountains, Hawaii, the mountains of New England, upstate New York, The Grand Canyon, Yosemite Park... I could go on forever.

ummm no...I have been many places. I just never heard someone say I like americans because of the scenery.

Perhaps you meant the lawns some maintain? Because that would be some scenery they could take credit for ....I guess

not sure anyone could take credit for natural wonders such as the grand tetons, niagra fall, the rocky mountains, the giant red woods, even the painted dessert, carmel beach, big surr and on and on and on