Red Shirts Plan To Paralyse Bangkok, Topple Thai Government

[jdinasia]

"Don't shoot the messenger"

Here's a media release from the UDD International Media spokesperson, Sean Boonpracong.

Facebook group: http://www.facebook.com/UDDThailand

UDD Media release- For immediate release

THAILAND: THE STATE OF FEAR

George Orwell taught us that, "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act,"

Orwell was right .... Sadly we have yet to hear any truth from Thaksin or his muppets

[animatic]

Marvelous bit of Agitprop this post #334

Did they send to London for Giles to write if for them?

Has that classic far leftist University Poly-Sci Professor feel to it.

Workers of the world untie ...

Edited March 10, 2010 by animatic

[anotherpeter]

Be cautious of people in red shirts (or blue shirts or yellow shirts or greens shirts) because they might actually be blues shirts or yellow shirts or green shirts (or red shirts) dressed to look like red shirts (or blues shirts or yellow shirts or green shirts).

Edited March 10, 2010 by anotherpeter

[elcent]

What PAD did is not the point.

Nor does it CHANGE the point.

The REDS are not the point then either.

But YOU are the point. Why that trembling when red supporters turn up here?

Abhisit, After contributing to panic, Abhisit calls for people not to panic. hmm... he need something for his portfolio? lol

[jdinasia]

What PAD did is not the point.

Nor does it CHANGE the point.

The REDS are not the point then either.

Ummm perhaps you should look at the topic of this thread one more time.

[elcent]

What PAD did is not the point.

Nor does it CHANGE the point.

The REDS are not the point then either.

Ummm perhaps you should look at the topic of this thread one more time.

what has your drivel to do with the topic now? I referred to a person in defense of the reds and you guys act like hyenas.

[jdinasia]

What PAD did is not the point.

Nor does it CHANGE the point.

The REDS are not the point then either.

Ummm perhaps you should look at the topic of this thread one more time.

what has your drivel to do with the topic now? I referred to a person in defense of the reds and you guys act like hyenas.

Just pointing out to you that Thaksin's Red shirts and their current plans are in fact the topic of this thread

[elcent]

Why don't some of you try to find out more of what's real and stop blaming where blame isn't needed. If you can spaek Thai then get a Thai person of each side and find out the truth befoere judging one person.

In fact, some talk shows, I mean real and to the point talk shows with opponents would have calmed and enlightened the people more. People, from both sides and not just the same clowns and drama queens over and over again. Why did that not take place? Or did I miss something? Must be on purpose not to do this in in a "Democracy" like this. I'm not talking about people out from the heated mob, or PAD/government propaganda artists.

[nakachalet]

and who indeed is going to stop the mass of 99.99% thai populace from doing what they like and love.... which is....

to love their king and queesn more than their own selves.... LOL

to attempt to stop.... would be treason at the very least....

which is your thai news source, by the way....pls?

Anyone notice 7 and 8? Either the reds have lost it totally or the list is a damning bit of anti-red PR produced by one of their enemies. You pays yer money and takes yer choice. Wonder how widely circulated this is.

Indeed that would lead to total mayhem.

I doubt it is going to happen, such threats posted on Thai forums in recent weeks, there is a credible threat that the authorities can't afford to ignore. Thai news reported that no signings of best wishes for HRM would be allowed at the hospital during the period of the ISA.

[Thai at Heart]

Marvelous bit of Agitprop this post #334

Did they send to London for Giles to write if for them?

Has that classic far leftist University Poly-Sci Professor feel to it.

Workers of the world untie ...

Certainly written by a native speaker, in fact I would hazard a guess that 95% of native speakers couldn't write with such pompous tone and twee turn of phrase.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Thai at Heart

[Thai at Heart]

why do non thai posters seem to be negative about the supporters of thaksin, like him or not these are ordinary people for whom the previous regime was of benefit so they like and support him and his policy.

i really dont know if he was good or bad when compared to others but i do know that those wearing yellow shirts are anti democracy as they have stated so the question is, if the choice is to have a vote or not to have a vote, who would you vote for?

we are against toxin, and therefor his supporters, because when he was in power, IMO, he was a very bad man, and if he gets back into power it will be worse.

Yes, he helped the poor people, but only by stealing the middle class's money to do it, which is why they turned against him.

As for democracy, do you really believe that because you have a vote that you have "democracy"? IMO, all politics is deceit, and most politicians are crooks or incompetents. The only choice in most elections for the serious thinker is which party is the least bad.

The best form of government, IMO, would be a benevolent dictator. Unfortunately, the only truth about power is that it corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Just look at Mao, Stalin and Mugabe. I'm sure non of them went into politics wanting to kill their own citizens and destroy their countries.

Yes, he helped the poor people, but only by stealing the middle class's money to do it, which is why they turned against him.

Oh dear oh dear, so we hate Thaksin because he made us pay tax. Selfish, selfish, selfish. Show me one so called self employed middle class (by this someone who doesn't work in AC, but doesn't work in the fields, not an employee) person in Thailand who pays every cent of tax as they should.

In another way, you could claim he was a modern day Robin Hood, which would make Abhisit the wicked Sheriff of Nottingham. He might have been bad (hate that word) but I would hazard a guess that one thing that Abhisit and Korn should do is to make sure that everyone pays their fair bloody share to the satang. The government wouldn't know what to do with all the money.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Thai at Heart

[anotherpeter]

Yes, he helped the poor people, but only by stealing the middle class's money to do it, which is why they turned against him.

Oh dear oh dear, so we hate Thaksin because he made us pay tax. Selfish, selfish, selfish. Show me one so called self employed middle class (by this someone who doesn't work in AC, but doesn't work in the fields, not an employee) person in Thailand who pays every cent of tax as they should.

In another way, you could claim he was a modern day Robin Hood, which would make Abhisit the wicked Sheriff of Nottingham. He might have been bad (hate that word) but I would hazard a guess that one thing that Abhisit and Korn should do is to make sure that everyone pays their fair bloody share to the satang. The government wouldn't know what to do with all the money.

Yes, you are quite correct in your response to that quote. But I think the quote was not quite clear.

Thaksin generally helped the poor with hand outs, not with long lasting action that would fix their plight. (Except for the health care.) The poor generally like him, because he gave them money. And Thaksin did that just to get popular support.

While he had popular support, he managed to change laws that benefitted his company. Directly. Not by changing laws to benefit all companies, or all companies in a particular sector. Just his company. And he made billions of dollars out of it. That is the money that he stole from the middle class (and in fact from all Thais.)

Edited March 11, 2010 by anotherpeter

[cdnvic]

Posts have been deleted for:

Flaming

Off-topic

Commenting or speculating on the place of The Monarchy on Thai politics

Quoting any of the above.

[Thai at Heart]

Yes, you are quite correct in your response to that quote. But I think the quote was not quite clear.

Thaksin generally helped the poor with hand outs, not with long lasting action that would fix their plight. (Except for the health care.) The poor generally like him, because he gave them money. And Thaksin did that just to get popular support.

While he had popular support, he managed to change laws that benefitted his company. Directly. Not by changing laws to benefit all companies, or all companies in a particular sector. Just his company. And he made billions of dollars out of it. That is the money that he stole from the middle class (and in fact from all Thais.)

The initial quote was extremely simplistic and I don't like the idea that the middle class shouldn't pay their share to the country. I have paid in my time, millions of baht in tax to the Thai government and have no Merc sitting in my driveway of my 50mn baht mansion. Why? Because it was deducted at source.

As for changing laws that only benefited his companies, there is another thread running showing that DTAC and True are also caught up in supposedly damaging the state.

I am not saying he didn't commit policy corruption, however, people running around claiming he raped the middle classes can stick it. The policy corruption removed money from all Thai's not just the middle classes.

We all know that the self employed/small business groups do not pay what they should under the law. In fact looking at the logic of damaging the state, shouldn't every corrupt tax man and businessman who gets together to guesstimate/negotiate how much the tax bill should be found guilty of the same.

[elcent]

What happens when nobody shows up? maybe replaced by red yellow shirts?

Roads to be closed from tomorrow noon time

****Oversize image moved to it's own topic with credit to Elcent (Thank you)****

Edited March 11, 2010 by cdnvic
image moved

[bubba]

Don't shoot the messenger.

Taken from Thai forum and translated into English on another forum that I am not allowed to provide a link to. If you want to search look at the news section of a forum that uses the name of the famous ruins in Cambodia, or imagine you are going 2 a forum in Bangkok.

Anyway, it lists locations of places that someone believes the UDD hardcore factions are going to plant bombs, launch or throw grenades at. Also mentions snipers around skytrain and subway stations, in addition to the 33 listed spots.

Apologies to anyone who feels upset at me posting this or believes it is scare-mongering. As I said, I am just passing on what I have read in another forum. These places may be the same as the 30-40 places the government's intelligence service has mentioned. I really don't know.

1 Supreme Court

2 Criminal Court in Ratchadaphisek ring

3 Bangkok Bank HQ at Silom

4 Bangkok Bank - Nana Branch

5 Kasikorn Thai Bank - Nana Branch

6 Siam Commercial Bank - Ratchayothin HQ and Phetburi HQ

7 Grand Place

8 Siriraj Hospital

9 Major Ratchayothin

10 Big C Rat Boorana - Southern terminal of Chao Phraya express

11 Central World - Main target for looting

12 Central Lad Phrao - Main target for looting

13 Phrannok Market

14 Minburi Market

15 Dao Khanong Market

16 Patthmawikorn Intersection

17 Arun Amarin Intersection

18 Rom Klao intrersection - clowed to Motorway and SUvannabhum

19 Kaset - Nawamin

20 Kaset - Nawamin - Crossing Lad Pla Khao

21 Kaset - Nawamin - Crossing Pradit Manootham road.

22 Nawamin Intesection

23 Sathon Intersection (Narathiwat crossing Siom) - Chong Nonsee

24 Saladaeng Intersection to storm Chulalongkorn Hospital

25 Saphan Kwai Intersection

26 Klong Toei Intersection

27 Ram Khamhaeng road - form Lam Salee to Suwinthawongse

28 Minburi Intersection (Ram Indra Road crossing Suwinthawongse)

29 BMA Office at Giant Swing and Dindaeng

30 Lumphini Park

31 Pathumwan Princess Hotel - MBK

32 Pathumwan Vocation School - MBK

33 Uthenthawai Vocation school & possibly Chulalongkorn U.

Even if these are the places that exist on the list the government has and the UDD did have any intention of sabotage, it is highly unlikely they would be able to successfully storm or launch an attack on more than a few of these places. To successfully attack all 33 places would require an incredibly coherent strategy, a police force in retreat (possible!) and a far greater number of protesters.

Anyway, keep your eyes open and stay safe. Could yet be something or nothing.

And more from that same posting in a forum whose name we dare not mention. This one translated to "English" from an article in Prachachat Turakij. And again, could be something or could be nothing:

1. If UDD blocking the traffic aroudn Thai - Japan Stadium, Govemtn would block all the traccigf alogn Mit Maitri road. The option is goign go alogn the shortcuts. The park and ride would be at Army Stadium (near Voice TV)

2. If UDD men are goign bloc k the tracc at Thug SOng Hong Polcie station - Kamphaengphet 6 Road at Miracle Grand hotel and Soi Vibhavadee 25 would be block by police - with mobile crane ... Better head to Bang Khen or Lak Si interseciton since the traffic at NBorht Park Gold Club Circle would be closed. The alternative shortcut would be at Soi Shinnakhet 1-2-3. Acccess form Vibhavadee Rangsit to North Park will be closed.

3. If there Lak Si circle is black, the alternative route is at RTAF Quatermaster to Vinbhavadee ... Those form Ram Indra beter use Lad Plakhao road to Pradit Manootham road to vibhavadee Highway with the risk to being shot or Ngam Wongwan ... Thsoe who are usign Phaholyothin road .. beter uturn and use Tunnel near 11th Inf. reg. to Lad Plakhjao or Ngam Wongwan.

4. If UDd men are blocing Bang Na Intesection ... the traddic on Sukhunvit would be close at Udomsuk Road (Sukhumvit 103), Soi Bearing (Sukhumvit 107), BITEC, and Sanphawut ... along the expressway gate at Bang Na ... better use Udomsuk Road (Sukhumvit 103), Sukhumvit 62, Old Railway road, Thepharak road and Poochao Samingphrai road and Sri Nakharin road.

5. If UDD are going to block Lumphinee Park - Clossing the tracc in front of Lumphini Polcie station - better use Sarasin road, Rajdamri road, Rama 4 road ...

6. If UDD are goign to blcok Wongwian Yai, closing the traffic from Taksi nintersection to WEongwian Yai - Intaraphithak road woudl be closed from Bang Yeeruea Intersection to Wongwian Yai, while Prajadhipok road will be closedfrom Ban Khaek intersection to Wongwian Yai, and closign Lad Ya road from Lad Ya 12 to Wongwian Yai.

For thsoe who are goign to cross chao Phra from BKK side to Thonburi form, Memorial bridge and Phapokklao bridge - tuying ledt Somdej Chao Phraya, Charoen nakhon, to Taksin road to Suksawat ... or going up north by goign to New issaraphab road ro Lad Yai triangle to Charoen Nakhon ... or heading to Idssarrap[ba road to Pho Samton amd using te shortcut at Wat Sankhajai to Phetkasem or heading ot Arun Amarin road to Siriraj to head to Charan Sanitwongse.

FOr thsoe from Thonburi to BKK, better use Taksin bridge or those from peht kasem can use Toedthai road to ratchasa, Kalapraprue road . The shortcut at Wat Snagkhajai aos work

Charoeng Nakhon road & SOmdej Chao Phraya road can be an alternative.

If Ratchadome noe avenut to Sanam Luang have been flooded by UDD men, the alterantive ate

1. Rama 8 Bridge

2. Those who go across Pinkalo bridge better U turn to use other route

3. Use Krung thon bridge

4. Thsoe who wnet out of the express at Yommajra better use eithere Rama 8 bridge or Krugn Thon bridge via Phitsanuloke and rama 5 road

[jdinasia]

The initial quote was extremely simplistic and I don't like the idea that the middle class shouldn't pay their share to the country. I have paid in my time, millions of baht in tax to the Thai government and have no Merc sitting in my driveway of my 50mn baht mansion. Why? Because it was deducted at source.

As for changing laws that only benefited his companies, there is another thread running showing that DTAC and True are also caught up in supposedly damaging the state.

I am not saying he didn't commit policy corruption, however, people running around claiming he raped the middle classes can stick it. The policy corruption removed money from all Thai's not just the middle classes.

We all know that the self employed/small business groups do not pay what they should under the law. In fact looking at the logic of damaging the state, shouldn't every corrupt tax man and businessman who gets together to guesstimate/negotiate how much the tax bill should be found guilty of the same.

In fact Thaksin's companies benefitted FAR more than any other company. In fact the rules were changed to benefit Thaksin's company directly in more than one case. In fact the head of the government is under a higher obligation to pay his taxes than the average man (though all should pay.) In fact the middle class pays more in taxes than any other group and since Thaksin DID cost the taxpayers billions of baht it is obvious that much of it came from the middle-class, but when you really look at it his theft from the state took money that COULD have been used for the poor. So I guess you could say he robbed from the poor and not just the middle-class.

now --- to the topic. It is good to see that people are coming up with work-arounds for projected traffic problems. I on the otherhand just told my partner to get out of BKK for the weekend and go to the beach!

Edited March 11, 2010 by jdinasia

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi.

I LIVE at Bangna intersection, to get to and from my place i have to get through there. They better don't DARE blocking my path. They can demonstrate all they want as long as they stay peaceful, but if they get in my way there will be trouble.

Regards....

Thanh

[Thai at Heart]

In fact AIS benefitted FAR more than any other company. In fact the rules were changed to benefit Thaksin's company directly in more than one case. In fact the head of the government is under a higher obligation to pay his taxes than the average man (though all should pay.) In fact the middle class pays more in taxes than any other group and since Thaksin DID cost the taxpayers billions of baht it is obvious that much of it came from the middle-class, but when you really look at it his theft from the state took money that COULD have been used for the poor. So I guess you could say he robbed from the poor and not just the middle-class.

now --- to the topic. It is good to see that people are coming up with work-arounds for projected traffic problems. I on the otherhand just told my partner to get out of BKK for the weekend and go to the beach!

I don't deny that he passed laws to benefit his companies, I am just a little shocked to see that DTAC and True are calculated in the total damages to the state. The supposed losses caused by AIS related businesses is the highest, I was simply correcting the fact that only his companies benefited.

Rights and wrongs aside, he did the crime.

Sorry all. Back to topic.

I for one heard from a friend at an international firm yesterday and they are closed Friday. Would seem sensible wouldn't it.

Where are the reds right now? How many bums on seats?

Edited March 11, 2010 by Thai at Heart

[stormnut]

It's not going to work as planned.

Ok, maybe a bunch of people will show up, but the existing government will be fine after the dust settles. Have there been reports of payments for attending?

The Abhisit government is legit and decent. There's no real groundswell against him and his administration. It's another last-ditch and desperate means for an extremely selfish man to try and put his hands back on big money and absolute power.

I see the OP photo of Thaksin with the words "Thailand needs change" He's trying to copy Obama's success with that line. Yes, Thailand needs change, it needs to get good people in leadership roles, and get away from the ugly patterns of having people like Thaksin in the driver's seat. Thailand needs to change being so tolerable to treasonous people like Thaksin. It needs to change being so forgiving to Thaksin's puppets, like Sae Daeng, who toss explosives here and there.

The sooner Thailand changes from being harassed from Thaksin and his followers, the sooner Thailand can get moving forward to improving quality of life and cleaning up the environment and doing the many other things that have been put off because of the incessant hassling from Thaksin and his paid intimidators.

Thai 'yellow shirt' political leader shot

How can Thaskin copy obamas success ??? Thaskin entered politics in the mid-1990s and briefly held ministerial roles, but failed to make much impact.

Business in trouble rallied behind the new party. Between its foundation in 1999 and the general election in January 2001.

Are not the red shirts now doing what the yellow shirts did ? try and topple the government

I suggest you read PLUTO-POPULISM IN THAILAND: BUSINESS REMAKING POLITICS by Pasuk Phongpaichit and Chris Baker in the Bangkok post August 28 2002

before you say Thaskin was greedy, he did a lot for the rural sector, the backbone of Thailand, where the food comes from.

Thaskin made his money BEFORE coming to power by doing things the present government never thought of doing.

" Thaksin and TRT also appealed to the rural mass that had borne the brunt of the crisis

through the collapse of crop prices, and the decline of remittance income from migrant

relatives working in the city. Between 1996 and 1999, (before thaskin came to power) the official count of the number below the poverty line had risen by 3 million,

The red shirts are protesting for a number of reasons, including the FACT the present government was not elected it came to power through parliamentry reshuffle not an election by the people.

This is a revolution I think, previously the yellows and the yellow ministers got rid of Thaskin, now the reds and the red ministers and the " watermelon army" (so called because they wear green but their heart is red) are trying to do the same

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi.

The main problem is as follows..... first, what the reds are doing right now is simply illegitimate - the current government is as legit as one can be, them trying to topple it is illegal, fullstop.

IF they would succeed in toppling the current government, however unlikely that seems, they would achieve - nothing. Because the very next day the YELLOWS would be in the street, and in far greater numbers - as the yellows actually represent the general Thai population (at least a vast majority of it) while the reds only represent themselves and their paymaster.

So either someone manages to take Thaksin out of the picture (isn't there ANY decent drunk bus driver in Dubai??) and the reds fizzle out for lack of money, or there is another coup (face it - the time under the military was as peaceful as it can be), or we'll have an endless row of red-yellow-red-yellow... etc mobs in the streets.

Which one of the three would YOU prefer??

And "an election" would not be a solution either - regardless which side would win that election, the respective other side's supporters would be in the streets attempting to topple them.

Politics stinks big time.

Best regards......

Thanh

[jdinasia]

Thahn ---

Bringing political or popular pressure to bear on a government to attempt to force them to resign is not "illegal" and certainly not wrong in a democracy IF it is done peacefully.

The yellows are not representative of the vast majority of Thais (neither are the reds). The yellows tend to represent the urban middle-class and some vested interests. The majority of the yellow movement are members of the tax-paying middle-class.

The reds represent rural lower income farmers etc and certain vested interests (very similar to the vested interests represented by the yellows).

Neither group represents a majority of Thais.

This thread however is about the reds and their plans to paralyze the capital (which is actually different than protesting). Paralyzing BKK would be an act of civil disobedience (by nature against the law) that can be admired IF if is for a good reason AND is honestly peaceful. Sadly, trying to get Thaksin back is not a good reason and peaceful has not been the reds' M.O. to date.

[BSJ]

Various people have said the present government is a legitimate government. With a scheduled election (legitimate) being sidelined by the coup everything that came after the coup is tainted with the same poison....including the Dec 07 elections. The country needs free elections without the military involved to leave the past behind.

Wikipedia : The 2006 Thailand coup d'état took place on Tuesday 19 September 2006, when the Royal Thai Army staged a coup d'état against the elected caretaker government of Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra. The coup d'état, which was Thailand's first non-constitutional change of government in fifteen years, followed a year-long political crisis involving Thaksin, his allies and political opponents and occurred less than a month before nation-wide House elections were originally scheduled to be held. It has been widely reported in Thailand and elsewhere that General Prem Tinsulanonda, Chairman of the Privy Council was the mastermind of the Coup. The military cancelled the upcoming elections, abrogated the Constitution, dissolved Parliament, banned protests and all political activities, suppressed and censored the media, declared martial law, and arrested Cabinet members.

The new rulers, led by general Sonthi Boonyaratglin and organised in a Council for Democratic Reform (CDR), issued a pronunciamiento on 21 September setting out their reasons for taking power and giving a commitment to restore democratic government within one year.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Thai_cou...tat#cite_note-0

[jdinasia]

BSJ --- that wiki article that you quoted part of is flawed from the very first sentence. A caretaker govenment by definition is NOT an elected government. (The people that were actually elected were the MP's and Thaksin dissolved parliament.)

The fact that when Samak and Somchai were accepted the government was considered legit by the reds and only when Abhisit came in as a result of the very same elections shows the fallacy to that argument.

and yet AGAIN this has nothing to do with the topic!

[momentumwaves]

The main problem is as follows..... first, what the reds are doing right now is simply illegitimate - the current government is as legit as one can be, them trying to topple it is illegal, fullstop.

Are you sure about this 'fact'?  

[jdinasia]

The main problem is as follows..... first, what the reds are doing right now is simply illegitimate - the current government is as legit as one can be, them trying to topple it is illegal, fullstop.

Are you sure about this 'fact'?

Yes (well, as legit as ANY coalition government can be at least ... :-) )

[Thanh-BKK]

Are you sure about this 'fact'?  

Yes sir, i am. Absolutely and 100% sure.

Best regards....

Thanh

[moo9]

It is true, both yellow and red are minorities in the country. The problem is that the ordinary, working Thais do not care or are too busy or simply not interested in politics and just want their quiet and relaxed life without mobs in the streets etc.

The problem about elections in Thailand is, that those elections are never free, secret and direct. A lot of money and bribes exchange hands which leads to certain results.

To me, Thailand is by far not ready for democracy, due to the lack of qualified and clean politicians and the lack of a general certain level of education, especially in the rural areas.

If you want to achieve a stable political system it would be the first step to improve education, but that's a long term approach, which will not help in the actual situation.

No easy way out I am afraid.

[anotherpeter]

The main problem is as follows..... first, what the reds are doing right now is simply illegitimate - the current government is as legit as one can be, them trying to topple it is illegal, fullstop.

Are you sure about this 'fact'?

Do you have any information to reject it? There are plenty of posts explaining why it is legitimate. Maybe the "as one can be" should have added "in Thailand".

[hammered]

It is true, both yellow and red are minorities in the country. The problem is that the ordinary, working Thais do not care or are too busy or simply not interested in politics and just want their quiet and relaxed life without mobs in the streets etc.

The problem about elections in Thailand is, that those elections are never free, secret and direct. A lot of money and bribes exchange hands which leads to certain results.

To me, Thailand is by far not ready for democracy, due to the lack of qualified and clean politicians and the lack of a general certain level of education, especially in the rural areas.

If you want to achieve a stable political system it would be the first step to improve education, but that's a long term approach, which will not help in the actual situation.

No easy way out I am afraid.

Education and to some degree using government policy to iron out the worst of the iniquities and gradual erosion of the owrst corruption is the long term way out. It is I agree a long and painful path if even attempted.

My feeling is now that all sides have this weekend unleashed something and everyone realises they are no longer in control of it. Anything or if we are lucky nothing could happen