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Thai Army Says Planning Operation To Clear Protesters


george

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Am I the only one wondering why Abhisit is handing this over to same guy who said parliament should be dissolved a few days ago?

They're Thai! Where's the confusion!

No you're not. I also wondered why yesterday evening suddenly EVERY cross road on the tiny island Koh Tao had a uniformed policeman standing there. That has never ever happened before. It was the first time Koh Tao felt the political unrest in Thailand so close up. I fear something is underway to go very very wrong here.

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The military said it was planning another operation to disperse the thousands of protesters from Bangkok's commercial district but the timing had not yet been decided.

"There will be an effort to retake the area. We can't allow protests there because it damages the country," army spokesman Sunsern Kaewkumnerd told reporters.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said that he was replacing his deputy as head of security operations in the capital, giving army chief Anupong Paojinda broader powers to tackle "terrorism".

Exactly what did the Thai army do to stop damage being done to the country when Suvarnabhumi was seized by the Yellows? Hopping around with Yellow flowers in gun barrels..

I would say more billions were lost over that compared to a few closed Bangkok Elite Paragon shopunits. At least now tourists can still come to Thailand but just visit other shopping malls.

You simply can't keep pointing to what the Yellows did to justify that the Reds are doing now.

It is precisely because the yellow shirts were allowed to get away virtually unhindered in what they did that the red shirts are copying their tactics. In this the red shirts have an additional propaganda advantage that the govt and army cannot counter. That is if they are treated differently from the yellow shirts the govt is guilty of double standards.

You can deny that until your last breath, but it will not change anything. The real World is well aware of the double standards in this country.

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No you're not. I also wondered why yesterday evening suddenly EVERY cross road on the tiny island Koh Tao had a uniformed policeman standing there. That has never ever happened before. It was the first time Koh Tao felt the political unrest in Thailand so close up. I fear something is underway to go very very wrong here.

That type of police presence is typical when there is a visit or convoy of a high placed official, or member of the royal family. You probably don't get that in a place like Ko Tao as often as you do in Bangkok or Chiang Mai.

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If there is a major crackdown as several TVF members wish, we have to look at the consequences:

- first, History shows that it just postpones the issue until the circumstances are favourable to another unrest, or the cracks we perceive in Army and Police may drive the situation to Civil war (risk not neglectible in the current circumstances)

- secondly, as underlined, in our modern times, the World is watching closely. If the crackdown finishes in another bloodbath, Thailand will be considered as Burma for the Human Rights- at least by an important number of Countries, this will induce at least a relative isolation,

- in any case, Investors will prefer to put their assets in less risky neighbouring Countries (Malaysia, Vietnam).

It is the interest of everybody, Elite as Red Shirts that everything ends in a peaceful manner.

IMHO, the Government, instead to accumulate the provocations, should cool down the situation by taking a whole set of serious measures for the stricken Northern population, defusing the situation at the roots, this will reopen the possibility of negociations with the leaders as their troops have good results. There are different ways for reopening the dialog (through MPs, Chavalit....)

It is irrelevant what the government HAS done and what the government WILL do to help the people in the N/NE.

It is especially irrelevant to the reds and their supporters. Most of them will never hear about it anyway. Red TV and radio won't be announcing anything that the government does that will help them, and surely hasn't mentioned anything that the government has already done.

The red leaders don't want their people to know what the government has done to help them. If the people knew any of that, then there would be far less support for the reds.

Your answer, I am afraid, is in line with a majority of TVF members, "Blood and Powder".

Yes the way to Peace is not easy but it worths to try it.

I am sorry but what HAS done the Government is obviously insufficient and has been announced very lately in the premises of the conflict: prices of rice, rubber, drought.... the farmers'incomes have to be supported SERIOUSLY not by cosmetic mini-measures. The development of the Country is not only Bangkok and its suburb and the toys of Army. A significant part of the Budget should be allocated to adress the issues 42% of the Population are facing....Instead the money is spoiled in Military toys.

My point is, it's irrelevant what the government have done or will do, because the reds won't accept it and won't believe it.

The red leaders only interest is to get into power. They have no plans on how to help the poor. But their supporters are blind to that.

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Sometimes I think many people don't understand that developing countries are still developing not just due to economic and HDI factors, but because the institutions of government and the political system aren't yet strong enough to support the country's operation. The Army doesn't follow this or that side of decide to do this or that based on any kind of institutional responsibility when the sh*t hits the fan because when push comes to shove it's more a self-interested organization than an institution of the government. The same goes for everything else. The guy above mentioned that when people don't follow laws, order breaks down. Yeah, that's what all of this is about. People in democracies (particularly nascent democracies) - red, yellow, whatever - don't follow laws out of fear of consequence, they follow them because of their particular interpretation of their social contract (though no one would word it that way). They follow laws put forth by a government that they feel vested in and that represents them and that governs a society in which they generally believe themselves to be participating as members. That's why people in America or the UK or wherever will stop at a red light in the middle of the night in a deserted small town and wait for it to turn green. They don't do that because they think the cops are watching and will arrest them, they do it because it's part of the system of rules that govern a society they feel benefits them. Here, the system of government is still in flux and no one on either of the political sides (who make up large enough minorities to matter) feel that the alternatives benefit them enough to invest themselves in the other's system of government. So, instead, they protest. The yellows didn't feel that way under Thaksin's people, the reds don't feel that way under the yellows' people and in the back of everyone's mind there's always that third option that's sort of a reset button allowing everyone to escape taking responsibility for forging a functional democracy. This will go on until there's no option on the table other than creating a functional government and at that point either they will or they won't and it's the "they won't" part that spooks me. We'll see. But in the mean time trying to compare the way this society and its institutions work to back home, wherever that is, with completely out of place debates about why the Army doesn't "do its job" and why the PM or anyone else doesn't "clean this mess up" is completely misunderstanding how developing countries with weak institutions of government operate and doesn't go anywhere substantive.

Seconded - good post and similar to my own views - this wait till the next ballot box idea is almost patronizing in its naivety - this is nascent democracy as a feudal society awakes, throws off its heirarchical shackles and emerges into the globalised 21st century world - don't let it be forgotten that countries surrounding Thailand like Laos, Vietnam, China have refused to make the step for all of the problems it could bring. The society is only lawless in the sense that there are no laws or only those that suit are given heed. I have already compared may of the comments on this forum to those of apparently well-meaning but actually almost colonial NGO's of Asia - "do it our, western way, it's for the best".

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looks like next week will be real interesting...several of my wife's relatives in the Army have been called to Bangkok...left at 2am this morning...

Sorting the Goods from the Bads.... Cleaning operation

Who would be "good" and who would be "bad" in your opinion?

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Sometimes I think many people don't understand that developing countries are still developing not just due to economic and HDI factors, but because the institutions of government and the political system aren't yet strong enough to support the country's operation. The Army doesn't follow this or that side of decide to do this or that based on any kind of institutional responsibility when the sh*t hits the fan because when push comes to shove it's more a self-interested organization than an institution of the government. The same goes for everything else. The guy above mentioned that when people don't follow laws, order breaks down. Yeah, that's what all of this is about. People in democracies (particularly nascent democracies) - red, yellow, whatever - don't follow laws out of fear of consequence, they follow them because of their particular interpretation of their social contract (though no one would word it that way). They follow laws put forth by a government that they feel vested in and that represents them and that governs a society in which they generally believe themselves to be participating as members. That's why people in America or the UK or wherever will stop at a red light in the middle of the night in a deserted small town and wait for it to turn green. They don't do that because they think the cops are watching and will arrest them, they do it because it's part of the system of rules that govern a society they feel benefits them. Here, the system of government is still in flux and no one on either of the political sides (who make up large enough minorities to matter) feel that the alternatives benefit them enough to invest themselves in the other's system of government. So, instead, they protest. The yellows didn't feel that way under Thaksin's people, the reds don't feel that way under the yellows' people and in the back of everyone's mind there's always that third option that's sort of a reset button allowing everyone to escape taking responsibility for forging a functional democracy. This will go on until there's no option on the table other than creating a functional government and at that point either they will or they won't and it's the "they won't" part that spooks me. We'll see. But in the mean time trying to compare the way this society and its institutions work to back home, wherever that is, with completely out of place debates about why the Army doesn't "do its job" and why the PM or anyone else doesn't "clean this mess up" is completely misunderstanding how developing countries with weak institutions of government operate and doesn't go anywhere substantive.

Is there not an Internet God who could make this readable?

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I wonder if the 6 PAD guards who were caught with a fair few guns and ammo are being treated as 'terrorists'???

The reds dropped a few grenades on the yellows when they were protesting.

So, based on all the "The Yellows did ... " arguments, it's completely acceptable for the yellows to do that against the reds now.

When are people going to stop with these petty arguments of it's OK for the reds because the yellows did it too?

This crap will never stop until people stand up and say "None of it is right! All of them should be in jail."

you are so very right....

the middle silent majority are already mobilized.... did you not notice their 'first' gathering....?

the next show of apolitical unity.... is the coming sunday, the 18th....

they are saying.... they love thailand and their most revered king, queen and royal family members.... and

they are not gonna put up with this illegal encrotchment and intimidation any longer....

furthermore, whenever the redshirt supporters riding by wtih their motocycles.... these silent majority groups will shout at the redshrits with....

WE LOVE THAILAND.... WE LOVE THAILAND.... WE LOVE THAILAND.... รักชาต รักชาต รักชาต (did i spell that right? LOL)

Edited by nakachalet
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The only way a society can function is if people follow the laws.

I'd almost agree with that: The only way a mature, just and lawful society can function is if people follow the laws.

When however the society in question is rotten to the core, and the laws come about through military intervention, then it doesn't work that way anymore. The international press fortunately seems to see that very clearly. The Thai press.. well.

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Ever heard of the word "precedent"?

WOW what a good arguement

Hitler sent the Jewish peoples to concentration camps

Does that mean it wold be ok for the Jewish people to

send the Germans to the concentration camps now?

Precedent does not mean jack in this case

It is a stupid arguement used by people who have no

valid arguement of reason

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There is at least one competent military force in Thailand - that being the military unit/commanders who executed the February 2003 demolition of the bar area that once occupied the space where Chuwit Park now stands, in-between Sukhumvit Sois 8 and 10.

That operation, conducted between about 2:00 am and 6:00 am on 26 February 2003, was a textbook operation. The planning behind that operation - and the complex execution that unfolded - were both extraordinary. That effort was wasted on a disreputable end purpose - but it was superb effort.

I don't know who was in charge of that operation - but that is the leader and team that should be put in charge of any challenging task.

As far as I know, the Thai Army had nothing to do with the SC Park Hotel fiasco - the "commandos" mentioned were Police Commando, not Thai Army Special Forces.

Thailand is rapidly running out of time to bring about a bloodless resolution. Unless the Army can get the Red Shirts to go home, an opposing force of opposition Thais will build up its forces, and will take action themselves - with the outcome looking something like the battle of Helms Deep (but with the attacker/defender roles reversed, in my political opinion). Reference:

Edited by Indo-Siam
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Is the appointment of General A.;

- A defacto coup, as the General now assumes ultimate control over the "Security" apparatus and has the authority to order any government agency to co-operate?

- A stroke of genius by the PM, putting the man that gave the PM assurances of support, only to slyly pull back setting the PM for defeat, onto the hotseat?

- The result of the General winning a strategic power play?

Were the skills and abilities of the PM over estimated? They say, he went to the best schools. He associated with the smart people. Ok, but so what? Sadly, street smarts, and book smarts are not gained through osmosis. Yes, he is a well scrubbed and a well spoken chap. So too are the cute boys and girls we see shilling for hair gel on the telly. We have made or assessments of the PM based upon the carefully massaged PR releases and the structured public appearances. However, once he was betrayed by finance minsiter Korn and others in his caucus it dawned on me that his peers must have considered him to be a lame duck, to be incapable of running things. Too harsh an assessment? Perhaps. However, it seems that a General with a basic education has been able to push an "educated" brahmin out of the way.

Now we will see the hand of Prem and we will also see how much clout PM Abhisit's father has. Will the father be able to intervene to save his son? Can he rally the elite of the elite against the army faction that is part of the elite but still a notch lower than the old guard elite?

Stay tuned for the excitement. There will be blood.................

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So the headline at the top, saying Government ready for more talks with Reds means the machine guns will do the talking?

It is the red leadership under instructions from Thaksin who prefer petrol bombs to negotiations.

you forgot to mention that this would not be happening if the ligitmate government (red shirts) were still in power

i am apolitical....

You are Australian, that excuses anyone for their lack of knowledge... sport..!!

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The only way a society can function is if people follow the laws.

I'd almost agree with that: The only way a mature, just and lawful society can function is if people follow the laws.

When however the society in question is rotten to the core, and the laws come about through military intervention, then it doesn't work that way anymore. The international press fortunately seems to see that very clearly. The Thai press.. well.

The reds just ignore the fact that their leaders are rotten to the core as well.

The poor of Thailand should be fighting for justice and the end to corruption.

They should start with themselves. Then move on to the business men and pooyai's in their areas that are robbing them blind (that probably includes their leaders). Then move on to the police and the politicians.

That isn't jsut the upcountry poor. That is the poor in Bangkok too.

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TO MY FRIENDS

I hear this cry coming from the bowels of the Thai country people, this long cry asking for more justice.

Who can remain insensible to the pain of the millions of men, women and children you represent? Your lives are rooted to this beautiful Country of which you are the gardeners. Generation after generation, you have been shaping the landscape, without you it will be an impenetrable jungle. Long days spent farming this rice, in the heavy rain, in the heavy sun, and when coming the dark, so exhausted that you have only one aim: to rest for working again tomorrow. You have gotten no time to take care of yourself: your wooden houses are nearly the same that those of your grand fathers' ones and generations before. Modernity is slightly visible through a TV set, a tap water in your garden....few details: it is your life and you can be proud than during Centuries you have feed the whole Country, particularly your fellow town people.

During this time your fellow town people have worked hard also, building factories, making business and they have succeeded: day after day they are accumulating wealth. Today they have nice modern houses, nice cars and all the modern comfort going with. Today they are more and more busy for accelerating the accumulation of wealth. Today they have big projects in which they are going to invest billions and billions. They are so occupied that they have forgotten you have feed them during Centuries. They cannot disturb their activities and give you a small part of their wealth because they need it for their grandiose projects. The Cities are buzzing like beehives: the noise is so important that they cannot hear you: they are deaf to your long pain cry.

Red Shirt people you are entering in Humanity History, I wish the coming days to be Peaceful, I know you love Peace ...

:)

Jerry, we agree on something at last! that certainly came from the bowels.....................

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Ever heard of the word "precedent"?

WOW what a good arguement

Hitler sent the Jewish peoples to concentration camps

Does that mean it wold be ok for the Jewish people to

send the Germans to the concentration camps now?

Precedent does not mean jack in this case

It is a stupid arguement used by people who have no

valid arguement of reason

It wasn't an arguEment, it was a question.

Godwin's Law 101.

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it's amazing that this army can't even surround a hotel and remove some fat middle aged men from a room without incident. If the army can't protect the country against a bunch of farmers with sticks, what the heck would they do if say someone like Cambodia decided this would be a nice country to have? I wonder how many countries out there are looking at Thailand as possible fair game, seeing how helpless they really appear. Maybe the moral of the story is, image is just that, all show and no substance. Time to get it together and prove it has what it takes to protect the women and children, or maybe the women and children should do it instead? :)

The problem is that the government and the army/police are trying to avoid mass casualties. If the Cambodians (in an extremely hypothetical situation) were to invade I think the Thai army would have no qualms about slaughtering them. On the other hand, you have to wonder how they are unable to arrest even one of the crooks calling themselves "leaders" of the red shirts. Personally, I think Abhisit is making the best of what is an impossible situation, and I'm sure he wishes he had something more effective than the Keystone Kops to rely on.

Unfortunately, this will likely all end with Abhisit resigning and probably moving overseas where he can probably make a good living under far less stressful circumstances. Thailand will have lost one of it's most intelligent, and educated Prime Ministers in decades and will end up with someone of the caliber of a Samak Sundaravej or a Chalerm - just what the country really deserves, so it can remain the underdeveloped, corrupt, laughing stock it seems to want to be. I used to love Thailand and respect its people. The last several years since the election of Thaksin have made me reconsider.

There's the reason, you just said it, "the ELECTION (my capitals) of Thaksin". The reason for all the trouble over the last few years is that Mr Thaksin was elected overwhelmingly by the people in a fair (as you can get in Thailand) election. The PAD encouraged the military to stage a coup causing Mr Thaksin to flee the country. After a couple of years of military rule elections were held and again the PPP were voted into power. The PAD didn't like this and started court proceedings against the PPP. In the meantime, the yellow shirts occupied the airport with no police or military intervention and said they'd remain there until the courts approved the case against the PPP. When this happened the yellow shirts gave up their occupation of the airport.

This is when the country should have called a new general election, but didn't. Instead, they lit the touch paper by handing power to the PAD and installing the unelected Mr Abhasit as prime minister. Is it any wonder that the majority of the Thai people, the voters for the PPP feel compelled to take action? They see the party they voted for displaced by the military and their man forced to flee the country; witness the yellow shirts occupy the airport with no intervention from the military or police; their party forced out of power by the judiciary and the PPP man installed as PM. They can't take it to the courts because the courts are perceived as being pro-PAD, so they assume the only course of action is to take to the streets.

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Trust me I'm in no hurry. Just checking to find out if it's actually happening. I know it will happen eventually and it has to happen, but with the likely outcome I can't honestly say I want it to happen.

ditto.... ditto.... ditto....

inasmuch as the thai court sanctioned that the current govt has the constitutional rights to issue orders, to arrest any unlawful gathering.... some two weeks ago....

apisit has been like before.... pussy footing around like a true gentleman.... which in all honesty emboldened the redshirts and its 4 coreleaders even more exponentially....

as is evidential to everyone around the world.... the 4 redshirt leaders including almost all former tuksin's senator friends were lining up on the podiem to openly supporting the redshirt unlawful gathering, movement and open intimidation and incitement of hatred between and among thais....

which under the current emergency laws.... they were all required to personally report to the investigative unit.... and more than half have obediently submitted with vengence in their hearts....

with the new chief in charge.... the end is insight....

the unlawful gathering with all its supporters, together with its 4 self-interest and self-enriched leaders who proclaim equality for all--in public.... but in-private.... choose to sleep in comfort in hotel rooms....;

will very soon be uprooted and disbanded by the new chief in charge--anupong....

and i personally hope and pray that.... the enforcement of the emergency laws and orders.... will be done with reserve, consideration and mercy, especially for all those common redshirts from esaan.... many come without adequate understanding of what democracy is.... i and many others would say that they are wrongly led to believe that they are fighting for democracy and social equality for everyone.... including their thai brothers and sisters in bangkok as well....

anupong and soldiers of the land.... have mercy please.... they are also your thai brothers and sisters....

if you must shoot.... fire at their lower limbs to disable.... but not to kill.... please....

when one is in an urban combat enviroment, you don't have the luxary of 'firing at their lower limbs'. when you are a twenty year old draftee, you 'blow and go'.

Yes, same as his sister..!!

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Since when has Abhisit been incharge of fuc_king anything? Thai media, stop trying to fill our heads with such rott!!!

Yes you are correct Abhisit is "NOW" not in charge... "The Royal Thai ARMY" is and I recon the reds better run off home because the Army is pissed off and will this time SAVE Thailand from this rotten scourge. :)

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it's amazing that this army can't even surround a hotel and remove some fat middle aged men from a room without incident. If the army can't protect the country against a bunch of farmers with sticks, what the heck would they do if say someone like Cambodia decided this would be a nice country to have? I wonder how many countries out there are looking at Thailand as possible fair game, seeing how helpless they really appear. Maybe the moral of the story is, image is just that, all show and no substance. Time to get it together and prove it has what it takes to protect the women and children, or maybe the women and children should do it instead? :)

Always better to get your facts straight. It was the police, not the army.

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Laws are rules that a Society gives to itself. It should be established by the majority will. If the Laws are established through Dictatorship, corruption or are twisted by a Minority, there the Laws are "unlawful" and are not respectable.

Laws should not be the decision of the strongest, but should correspond to a consensus of the Society.

It is the first step, then you have a second step: the application of the Laws: if the application is unfair, double standard, corrupted, twisted...the Laws loose credibility and are no more the Reference that they should be.

Laws are sometimes difficult to interpret,controversial, and can conduct to opposite interpretation: this makes wealthy generations of Lawyers in our Countries.

In Thailand....Laws are twisted by successive governments, unfairly applied, controversials....

Edited by Jerrytheyoung
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In the spirit of loving kindness yellow supporters, there is a really good chance you don't know Who you are taking sides against. IF some of the Western media reports are correct, you might end up trying to cover your tracks when it's too late; get your head down. You might NOT be in the cafe that has the most chicken in the soup. Google hard before it's too late for you.

Their are good intentioned people on both sides, with good ideals, however all of your leaders are gangsters, really BIG gangsters!

70% of Thais are neither red or yellow supporters. Real smart, not I can type in forums smart, farangs should squarely NOT be siding with either side. Why 90% of farangs favour one side OR the other is really beyond the pale.

You can't WIN anything by guessing right, but you can sure LOSE if you end up on the wrong side of the fence! GET IN NEUTRAL! <<< I really mean this in the helpful way.

Veritas et Pax

Am I the only one who reads this as a threat from another commi red shirt?? who say's they want "democracy" but as soon as anyone uses the right of free speech to not agree with them out come the threat's ?

Thaksin gagged the press not this government and those reds are financed by the convicted criminal Takki aka Thaksin who used to buy the votes from those red shirt gangsters and is now financing their riots ..... all this dribble those reds write here about the poor and ever so peaceful "protesters" ... it's a rioting mob trying to force the government down so their master can get his money back and resume power

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it's amazing that this army can't even surround a hotel and remove some fat middle aged men from a room without incident. If the army can't protect the country against a bunch of farmers with sticks, what the heck would they do if say someone like Cambodia decided this would be a nice country to have? I wonder how many countries out there are looking at Thailand as possible fair game, seeing how helpless they really appear. Maybe the moral of the story is, image is just that, all show and no substance. Time to get it together and prove it has what it takes to protect the women and children, or maybe the women and children should do it instead? :)

Always better to get your facts straight. It was the police, not the army.

Those pics of Mr A dangling from the cord are priceless...

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I'd love to know the real story of what happened in the hotel room this morning....and how they started with A and ended up with Z.

The only thing that kept coming to my mind on the subject all day was the movie title... "The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight."

I keep having Keystone Cops reruns in my head every time I read of the latest debacle

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Laws are rules that a Society gives to itself. It should be established by the majority will. If the Laws are established through Dictatorship, corruption or are twisted by a Minority, there the Laws are "unlawful" and are not respectable.

Laws should not be the decision of the strongest, but should correspond to a consensus of the Society.

It is the first step, then you have a second step: the application of the Laws: if the application is unfair, double standard, corrupted, twisted...the Laws loose credibility and are no more the Reference that they should be.

Laws are sometimes difficult to interpret,controversial, and can conduct to opposite interpretation: this makes wealthy generations of Lawyers in our Countries.

In Thailand....Laws are twisted by successive governments, unfairly applied, controversials....

Did you go "Through The Looking glass" or "Down the Rabbit Hole" What a load of crap.

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Why am I seeing and reading this on international news but not hearing anything about this on Thai News??>>Hmm, what goes around comes around...??...

On Monday, Thailand's election commission -- an independent government body that oversees races and can disqualify candidates -- recommended the dissolution of Abhisit's party. The commission accused the Democrat Party of accepting an $8 million campaign donation from a private company and for mishandling funds the commission allocated to it.

The commission's recommendation will now be considered by the country's attorney general's office. If it agrees, the country's Constitution Court will ultimately issue a ruling.

Old news. That was in the Thai news a week ago. Any decision by the constitutional court is potentially months away.

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