I just find delightful irony in Germans complaining about being overrun by foreigners.

That's an unfair remark cdnvic.

Possibly, but it is still well worth pointing out.

I just find delightful irony in Germans complaining about being overrun by foreigners.

That's an unfair remark cdnvic.

Possibly, but it is still well worth pointing out.

Why is it well worth ?

LaoPo

I just find delightful irony in Germans complaining about being overrun by foreigners.

That's an unfair remark cdnvic.

Possibly, but it is still well worth pointing out.

Why is it well worth ?

LaoPo

don't tell me you expect a "well worth" answer

Good lord people are touchy this morning

Whatever happened to that famous Prussian sense of hum....

nevermind

touchy? no. bored? yes.

If people want to immigrate to a Western country, then they have to fit into that country and keep it as attractive as it was when they decided to immigrate. Not turn it into the country they left, otherwise why did they leave?

Remind me again why Brits in Thailand must have their English breakfast, Sunday roast, footie night at the local pub singing footie songs, starting up pool leagues, etc? I'll answer that myself...just because people leave their home country doesn't mean that they reject their own culture. Often the reasons are either political, economical, religious, safety/heath or for better opportunities (education, etc).

Thailand doesn't give away citizenship too often and "visitors" have to abide by stringent visa requirements. Not the same thing at all, so I don't think that analogy carries any weight.

Maybe if Thailand were to let people migrate there more freely and not feel like "guests", they might try and fit in a little better. To apply for citizenship, it may apt to ensure the applicant can make and eat a serving of Som Tam, as well as having to do an interview in Thai.

If people want to immigrate to a Western country, then they have to fit into that country and keep it as attractive as it was when they decided to immigrate. Not turn it into the country they left, otherwise why did they leave?

Remind me again why Brits in Thailand must have their English breakfast, Sunday roast, footie night at the local pub singing footie songs, starting up pool leagues, etc? I'll answer that myself...just because people leave their home country doesn't mean that they reject their own culture. Often the reasons are either political, economical, religious, safety/heath or for better opportunities (education, etc).

Thailand doesn't give away citizenship too often and "visitors" have to abide by stringent visa requirements. Not the same thing at all, so I don't think that analogy carries any weight.

Maybe if Thailand were to let people migrate there more freely and not feel like "guests", they might try and fit in a little better. To apply for citizenship, it may apt to ensure the applicant can make and eat a serving of Som Tam, as well as having to do an interview in Thai.

I'd guess at least 95% of the westerners living long term in Thailand wouldn't bother trying to fit in better no matter what the Thai immigration policy was.

I'd guess at least 95% of the westerners living long term in Thailand wouldn't bother trying to fit in better no matter what the Thai immigration policy was.

I agree, but before we realize the topic is turning around, discussing Farang, integrating in Thailand, or not........but the topic is:

Can Multicultural Countries In The West Be Successful Qua Integration ?

Otherwise the OP could have been put in "General" instead OTB.

LaoPo

Canada is supposedly a multi-culture country. It sort of works, but it depends on the nationality. After a few generations there appears to be some integration, but with a few ethnic groups there is NO integration at all. Certainly there are ethnic groups of all nationalities living within Canada's major cities and they seem to work okay... but. East Indian (Hindi, Sikh, etc) and muslim groups do not integrate at all with anyone outside their nationality. They live like separate communities within the city. There are NO marriages outside their own ethnic group. By contrast, Chinese, Taiwanese, Vietnamese, Thai, Japanese and families from the Philippines will stay within their own nationalities for about one generation and then they tend to inter-marry with any other group including English speaking Europeans. The Jewish community tends to live within it's own religious group, but there is a little bit of integration with outside religious groups. I have many caucasian friends who have married women from Chinese and Japanese families. There are no problems at all. It's not the same with east Indian families. We've had more than a few Sikh fathers who have murdered their own daughters who had the temerity to marry outside their caste.

4. Geert Wilders:

Well, he has now 2 successors in Germany also and we just installed our new Minority Government last Thursday created out of 2 parties, the Liberal VVD and the Social Democrats CDA with together 52 seats in Parliament out of 150

The latter party, CDA had 41 seats in 2006 before the new elections in 2010, some 4 months ago, and dropped to 21 seats but are now (again) in the government with 50% of the ministers; 6 out of 12...

How that can be?

Well, the government is and will be supported with the votes of the PVV of Geert Wilders who increased his parliament seats from 9 in 2006 to a staggering 24 seats in 2010. Amazing performance for a man who was a party member of the VVD and left that party in 2004 and remained in parliament on his own with just 1 seat.

Geert Wilders is on trial in Amsterdam since last week for his expressions but the "People" already asked the Court to dismiss him on several accounts; today the trial continues.

the above was from a more lengthy post:

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__3963389

Judges told to step down in Wilders trial

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-11609589

In a mini-explanation:

A Judge, member of the (Higher Amsterdam) Court that ordered the Prosecution to prosecute Wilders, attented a special dinner with a few lefty intellectuals...TOGETHER with an invited Arab specialist/lecturer who was called by an Arbiter of Justice in the Wilders trial, a few days later..

That's is absolutely "not done", especially since the Judge KNEW that the Arab specialist was coming for dinner but not vice versa and the Judge talked about the trial with the Arab specialist during that dinner on several occasions

This Arab specialist was sitting in the Court room, last Friday and was called by the Defending Lawyer for Wilders but the request by this lawyer was flat out denied by the ruling Bench of Judges, which was a shocking surpise since they had NO reason not to allow this witness to take the stand.

The Lawyer than called upon that Bench to step down immediately !

After that another panel of Judges has to decide what's next and it is extremely rare that such a Judge Panel will grant the lawyers request, but they did.

Mind you, all these Judges have lunch with each other every day and work day-in-day-out together....in the same building/Court house...

The whole trial has to be done all over again now with a completely new Bench of new -impartial- Judges.

LaoPo

Canada is supposedly a multi-culture country. It sort of works, but it depends on the nationality. After a few generations there appears to be some integration, but with a few ethnic groups there is NO integration at all. Certainly there are ethnic groups of all nationalities living within Canada's major cities and they seem to work okay... but. East Indian (Hindi, Sikh, etc) and muslim groups do not integrate at all with anyone outside their nationality. They live like separate communities within the city. There are NO marriages outside their own ethnic group. By contrast, Chinese, Taiwanese, Vietnamese, Thai, Japanese and families from the Philippines will stay within their own nationalities for about one generation and then they tend to inter-marry with any other group including English speaking Europeans. The Jewish community tends to live within it's own religious group, but there is a little bit of integration with outside religious groups. I have many caucasian friends who have married women from Chinese and Japanese families. There are no problems at all. It's not the same with east Indian families. We've had more than a few Sikh fathers who have murdered their own daughters who had the temerity to marry outside their caste.

Very good informative post. Thanks.

When I built my business in Edmonton in the late 80's I didn't "feel" nor see any problems within the several multi-cultures but I didn't live there, traveling up and down from Europe.

IMO the Europeans integrated and intermarried very smooth and frequent, including Jewish people.

What surprised me at that particular time of my life was that one could see the unbelievable amounts of churches ,-smaller and bigger ones- being built everywhere in Canada from all kinds of different religions whilst, at the same time, churches in Europe were and are closing, apart from Mosques....

I was even "connected" to one of my employees by her family, an Iraqi Christian family (escaped from the then regime) who were trying to match us. It didnt work out, simply because I wasn't interested in the girl.

But, I'm not surprisd by your conclusion (more or less) that it's a religion related thing that only people from Islamic and certain Indian and Pakistani groups do not integrate.

I wonder how integration will develop in another 100 years, but I won't be there anymore to watch....

LaoPo

Years ago when I was young and handsome in my early twenties I had a crush on a beautiful Sikh gal, and she felt the same about me. The gal had an English type name, a Canadian accent and to all intents was a normal Canadian woman. However, when she brought me home to meet her familly we were both met with hostility from her father and her brothers. Her mother kept quiet and in the background. I was told under no circumstances to ever come back, and to leave their daughter alone. I was dumbfounded and shocked at the open hostility. It was my first experience at racism. Sikhs have been in Canada for over 150 years, as have other nationalities. They have established successful businesses and carry on like any other group... but they don't mix outside their faith. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I haven't personally seen any.

I used to know a gay Sikh guy in his mid-twenties. His family discovered that he was gay and also had a white boyfriend. They kidnapped him and held him hostage in London. He had to be rescued by the police.

Can Multicultural Countries In The West Be Successful Qua Integration ?

Looking at previous answers...is it correct to say that MOST of the problems of certain groups who are not fully integrating (in the Western Countries) are due to the laws within their religion ?

....forbidding the youngsters to integrate because their parents do not agree their sons and daughters to intermarry outside their group and religion?

If the answer would be YES............how long will this process continue; and....is there a chance that those religions will ever allow their sons and daughters to marry with "outsiders" and THUS slowly integrate into Western Society ?

Or is the process a NO-NO for the coming 100 years or longer?

If it's a NO-NO what will the consequences be for Western Societies knowing that the marriages within those religions "produce" substantially more children than Western partnerships?

LaoPo

How would people here feel if these groups that refused to integrate, did so not by living amongst the local citizens, but established their own communities apart from everyone else? What if the Turks formed small Turkish-only cities inside of Germany's borders? Other German citizens wouldn't even see them except when they needed supplies, etc? Would that be acceptable?

How would people here feel if these groups that refused to integrate, did so not by living amongst the local citizens, but established their own communities apart from everyone else? What if the Turks formed small Turkish-only cities inside of Germany's borders? Other German citizens wouldn't even see them except when they needed supplies, etc? Would that be acceptable?

Of course not.

Althought the word "Ghetto" originates from an area where Jews were obligated/forced to live it became a kind of notorious word for places were all kinds of minority groups settled with one another.

Like the Italians in New York, or the Irish, Or Chinese in a China Town.

The first two had their Catholic believe high in their roots, culture and family values but that faded away once they integrated and both groups spread around throughout the countries were they settled, no matter if it was the US, Canada, Australia or New Zealand next to the Northern European countries in the early fifties and sixties when the Italians, Portuguese and Spaniards came, as examples.

The Chinese had no special religion to hang on but had more difficulties to integrate because of language difficulties, next to the enormous food barrier.

Yet, also the Chinese slowly integrated, spread and were/are hard working people

Personally, I think that the European problems with/from/by the people with their Islamic/Muslim and other religious backgrounds will also slowly disappear but it will take a longer time because of their immense and strict social controls within their community and families; meaning that everybody is watching everybody regarding religion and visits to the Mosque and other social behavior.

Many youngsters do not go to the Mosque anymore, never mind their roots in Islam because of their parents and grandparents.

The causes that a part of the European Muslim youngsters create problems find their origin in a very low education because their parents were even lower educated and women often not at all, and THUS didn't encourage their children to study also, leaving them without very good chances to integrate and find good jobs and therefore a good income.

Next tot hat they were -and still are- encouraged to marry within their own religion and country-side groups, resulting in marrying a very low educated boy or girl (mostly girls) from -preferably- small home area where their parents came from!

But, the growing unrest amongst the original populations in Europe, watching these problems resulted now in stricter immigration rules and closing borders and it is more and more difficult to "import" a bride.

In a next post I will write about the CLOSING EUROPEAN BORDERS.

LaoPo

How would people here feel if these groups that refused to integrate, did so not by living amongst the local citizens, but established their own communities apart from everyone else? What if the Turks formed small Turkish-only cities inside of Germany's borders? Other German citizens wouldn't even see them except when they needed supplies, etc? Would that be acceptable?

Of course not.

It works well enough in America and no one complains. Unless of course you're in a hurry and get stuck behind someone's horse and buggy.

How would people here feel if these groups that refused to integrate, did so not by living amongst the local citizens, but established their own communities apart from everyone else? What if the Turks formed small Turkish-only cities inside of Germany's borders? Other German citizens wouldn't even see them except when they needed supplies, etc? Would that be acceptable?

Of course not.

It works well enough in America and no one complains. Unless of course you're in a hurry and get stuck behind someone's horse and buggy.

I simply don't believe that no one complains; that's what YOU say.

Ghettos don't work, period; no matter what you would say about Turks, Jews, Italians...Ghettos are a disgrace to every single country in the world and proof that integration didn't work also in the US if you have such areas; and you DO have such areas in the US, incuding black Ghettos.

What you write is approval of separation of the various races.

LaoPo

How would people here feel if these groups that refused to integrate, did so not by living amongst the local citizens, but established their own communities apart from everyone else? What if the Turks formed small Turkish-only cities inside of Germany's borders? Other German citizens wouldn't even see them except when they needed supplies, etc? Would that be acceptable?

Of course not.

It works well enough in America and no one complains. Unless of course you're in a hurry and get stuck behind someone's horse and buggy.

I simply don't believe that no one complains; that's what YOU say.

Ghettos don't work, period; no matter what you would say about Turks, Jews, Italians...Ghettos are a disgrace to every single country in the world and proof that integration didn't work also in the US if you have such areas; and you DO have such areas in the US, incuding black Ghettos.

What you write is approval of separation of the various races.

LaoPo

flying, UG, chuckd, any other Yanks here want to help out with this? I've got to run.

One thing to note is I've NEVER seen any Chinese or Japanese on wellfare in Canada. It just doesn't happen. Doesn't seem to happen with other south east Asians as well... even with second and third generation Asians who don't even speak their native language. That is more than I can say for other ethnic groups. I've heard other ethnic groups cry racism as the reason why they can't get jobs, but that never seems to be the case with Asians. No Canadian citizens were more poorly treated than the Japanese Canadians during the second world war. Their properties were stolen and they were all sent ot concentration camps until the war was over. They came back to nothing, and with REAL racial discrimination when trying to get jobs. It was not the so called "racial discrimination" that some groups keep crying about. And yet, 30 years after the war the Japanese Canadians had rebuilt their wealth from nothing.

How would people here feel if these groups that refused to integrate, did so not by living amongst the local citizens, but established their own communities apart from everyone else? What if the Turks formed small Turkish-only cities inside of Germany's borders? Other German citizens wouldn't even see them except when they needed supplies, etc? Would that be acceptable?

Of course not.

It works well enough in America and no one complains. Unless of course you're in a hurry and get stuck behind someone's horse and buggy.

I simply don't believe that no one complains; that's what YOU say.

Ghettos don't work, period; no matter what you would say about Turks, Jews, Italians...Ghettos are a disgrace to every single country in the world and proof that integration didn't work also in the US if you have such areas; and you DO have such areas in the US, incuding black Ghettos.

What you write is approval of separation of the various races.

LaoPo

I'll jump in here, Koheesti.

Lao Po:

There are ethnic neighborhoods in each and every large city in the US. Most of them still speak their native languages, celebrate their native holidays, worship their own particular religion and pretty well do as they please.

Here is a Wikipedia link to a few cities and towns you might find interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_named_ethnic_enclaves_in_North_American_cities

Most Americans have no problem with them retaining their native identies as long as they try and assimilate into the US properly. By properly, I mean via LEGAL immigration and generally following the laws of the land.

The US is much more tolerant of other's heritage than any other place I have lived or worked. At times too tolerant.

What you must remember is the US was built by legal immigrants that were generally escaping a Europe, Asia, Africa that had no tolerance for them.

If you don't believe me, go to any US Embassy and see how many citizens of the host country are trying to get visas to go to the US. Yanks don't suffer fools very patiently as you might have noticed on OTB, but US citizens welcome immigrants who want to come to the US legally.

I am not speaking for the US State Department. That is another story in itself.

PS: Now if some Muslim community tried to install Shariah law, there might be a few complaints voiced about that!

I used to know a gay Sikh guy in his mid-twenties. His family discovered that he was gay and also had a white boyfriend. They kidnapped him and held him hostage in London. He had to be rescued by the police.

Which did they find more objectionable endure? The fact that he was gay or that he had a white boyfriend? Or was it just all too much fo them?

Thanks chuck, but I was really talking about these guys...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

Thanks chuck, but I was really talking about these guys...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

** Photo deleted by Chuckd

I knew you were talking about the Amish but simply assumed everybody also knew about them. I thought LaoPo was discussing the overall picture.

As far as the Amish are concerned, they live their lives eschewing any form of modern convenience and have little interference from the local folks. I am certain there are locals that don't like them but, believe it or not Harry, there are people that don't really like me!

The US is much more indulgent towards minorities than most other nations.

Thanks chuck, but I was really talking about these guys...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

** Photo deleted by Chuckd

I knew you were talking about the Amish but simply assumed everybody also knew about them. I thought LaoPo was discussing the overall picture.

As far as the Amish are concerned, they live their lives eschewing any form of modern convenience and have little interference from the local folks. I am certain there are locals that don't like them but, believe it or not Harry, there are people that don't really like me!

The US is much more indulgent towards minorities than most other nations.

Unless you look too closely at their child raising techniques it is hard not to like the Amish or Mennonites. They come to Florida for vacations and have restaurants there. I don't think they stay in hotels.

They have small homes, don't live large at all. Village elders approve marriages and major purchases like a car. Different sects have different levels of modernity.

They wear all their clothes when they go to the beach. In Florida you can see them frolicking next to teenage American girls in T backs. The Amish wearing blue long sleeve shirts and black pants.

I think they call themselves Dutch and us foreigners. Great food. Very basic and cooked well. Never any food poisoning. Meat and potatoes and gravy people.

They also used to make Thompson boats. Excellent craftsmanship. Still used wooden nails.

As a group they are financially very successful. Beautiful farms up North.

Canada is supposedly a multi-culture country. It sort of works, but it depends on the nationality. After a few generations there appears to be some integration, but with a few ethnic groups there is NO integration at all. Certainly there are ethnic groups of all nationalities living within Canada's major cities and they seem to work okay... but. East Indian (Hindi, Sikh, etc) and muslim groups do not integrate at all with anyone outside their nationality. They live like separate communities within the city. There are NO marriages outside their own ethnic group. By contrast, Chinese, Taiwanese, Vietnamese, Thai, Japanese and families from the Philippines will stay within their own nationalities for about one generation and then they tend to inter-marry with any other group including English speaking Europeans. The Jewish community tends to live within it's own religious group, but there is a little bit of integration with outside religious groups. I have many caucasian friends who have married women from Chinese and Japanese families. There are no problems at all. It's not the same with east Indian families. We've had more than a few Sikh fathers who have murdered their own daughters who had the temerity to marry outside their caste.

Ian - you forgot the Quebecquois, or do you not consider that area to be a part of Canada?

Thanks chuck, but I was really talking about these guys...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

** Photo deleted by Chuckd

I knew you were talking about the Amish but simply assumed everybody also knew about them. I thought LaoPo was discussing the overall picture.

As far as the Amish are concerned, they live their lives eschewing any form of modern convenience and have little interference from the local folks. I am certain there are locals that don't like them but, believe it or not Harry, there are people that don't really like me!

The US is much more indulgent towards minorities than most other nations.

Unless you look too closely at their child raising techniques it is hard not to like the Amish or Mennonites. They come to Florida for vacations and have restaurants there. I don't think they stay in hotels.

They have small homes, don't live large at all. Village elders approve marriages and major purchases like a car. Different sects have different levels of modernity.

They wear all their clothes when they go to the beach. In Florida you can see them frolicking next to teenage American girls in T backs. The Amish wearing blue long sleeve shirts and black pants.

I think they call themselves Dutch and us foreigners. Great food. Very basic and cooked well. Never any food poisoning. Meat and potatoes and gravy people.

They also used to make Thompson boats. Excellent craftsmanship. Still used wooden nails.

As a group they are financially very successful. Beautiful farms up North.

Any darkside - besides the color of their clothes?

I used to know a gay Sikh guy in his mid-twenties. His family discovered that he was gay and also had a white boyfriend. They kidnapped him and held him hostage in London. He had to be rescued by the police.

Which did they find more objectionable endure? The fact that he was gay or that he had a white boyfriend? Or was it just all too much fo them?

The fact that he was gay. Having a Sikh boyfriend wouldn't have made any difference. They just couldn't cope with the fact that he was gay.