Is There Something Bad Or Wrong With Yamaha Motorbike?

[Thailaw]

Popularity or market share is rarely the sign of a good product. Why is the world covered with McDonalds? It is just one of those bits of propaganda that competition leads to the best product.

More specifically, Yamaha was probably a nicer bike than Honda in the past - my old Tiara was a lot nicer than my Tenas. At some point a near monopoly drains the funding of the declining firm and boosts that of the rising one, meaning that the declining firm cannot replace products. In the end you usually are left with just one or two companies in any given field, less choice, and poorer quality and value.

It is worth noting that my friend the Honda dealer states that Honda got into its advantageous position through vigorous restraint-of-trade type practice rather than through any superiority of product. Over the last couple of decades, he says, Honda sold motorbikes at less than cost, and more importantly paid Suzuki, Yamaha, and Kawasaki dealers exorbitantly to switch to Honda or shut down. He says it was a concerted program to destroy the competition by shutting them out of the Thai market.

Your post would make much more sense if you had started it "Once upon a time.......", because it truly is a fairy tale. There is a typo in the 4th word of the third paragraph -- you forgot the "h" after the "t" and before the "i". If by "a good product" you mean giving people what they want at a reasonable price, then McDonanlds truely does produce "a good product". Its not gourmet food, but it doesn't cost 50 quid per person or take an hour and a half to be served as it does in a fancy restaurant (perhaps that is the only "good" product in your world), and it's cheap and quick for folks on the run (I prefer a Whopper at Burger King, but that's only because I am a gourmet). And perhaps your friend the Honda dealer was speaking in Thai and you didn't understand, or perhaps he sells Hondas in Timbuktu. If you walk into any/every Honda dealer that I have ever seen in Thailand it also sells Yamaha -- nobody has been pushed out or forced to switch from one to another! They all sell both. What better opportunity could anyone (as a buyer) want -- you can compare every feature side-by-side and negotiate the price on each bike with the same person, and do that at multiple shops -- the best man (at least in the eyes/minds of the consumer) wins. Yamaha dealers are everywhere, just open your eyes. And Yamaha has produced some very popular motorbikes -- the Fino and the Elegance are very popular, so much so that Honda has copied the Fino with the Scoopie. Both are available, and consumers will decide which they like better. The Yamaha situation is not unique to Thailand, as you suggest. Check to see how many factories Yamaha has close worldwide in the last year. But maybe it is all part of a very successful worldwide conspiracy, or maybe (just maybe), riders and buyers like Hondas better!

Mr.English teacher give it a rest. Stop nitpicking as your English isn't perfect either.

My English is perfect, but that is not the point. I was circuitously suggesting that "worth noting" (as written by the poster) should be "worth nothing" (which is what happens when you insert the "h"), which is what, I believe, the comments about Honda driving out the competition in Thailand through illegal trade practices are worth -- nothing! Next time, I will insert ["this is a joke"] so that even the mentally challenged readers (if the shoe fits) will undertand. No question, you would flunk my class......

[transplant]

Popularity or market share is rarely the sign of a good product. Why is the world covered with McDonalds? It is just one of those bits of propaganda that competition leads to the best product.

More specifically, Yamaha was probably a nicer bike than Honda in the past - my old Tiara was a lot nicer than my Tenas. At some point a near monopoly drains the funding of the declining firm and boosts that of the rising one, meaning that the declining firm cannot replace products. In the end you usually are left with just one or two companies in any given field, less choice, and poorer quality and value.

It is worth noting that my friend the Honda dealer states that Honda got into its advantageous position through vigorous restraint-of-trade type practice rather than through any superiority of product. Over the last couple of decades, he says, Honda sold motorbikes at less than cost, and more importantly paid Suzuki, Yamaha, and Kawasaki dealers exorbitantly to switch to Honda or shut down. He says it was a concerted program to destroy the competition by shutting them out of the Thai market.

Your post would make much more sense if you had started it "Once upon a time.......", because it truly is a fairy tale. There is a typo in the 4th word of the third paragraph -- you forgot the "h" after the "t" and before the "i". If by "a good product" you mean giving people what they want at a reasonable price, then McDonanlds truely does produce "a good product". Its not gourmet food, but it doesn't cost 50 quid per person or take an hour and a half to be served as it does in a fancy restaurant (perhaps that is the only "good" product in your world), and it's cheap and quick for folks on the run (I prefer a Whopper at Burger King, but that's only because I am a gourmet). And perhaps your friend the Honda dealer was speaking in Thai and you didn't understand, or perhaps he sells Hondas in Timbuktu. If you walk into any/every Honda dealer that I have ever seen in Thailand it also sells Yamaha -- nobody has been pushed out or forced to switch from one to another! They all sell both. What better opportunity could anyone (as a buyer) want -- you can compare every feature side-by-side and negotiate the price on each bike with the same person, and do that at multiple shops -- the best man (at least in the eyes/minds of the consumer) wins. Yamaha dealers are everywhere, just open your eyes. And Yamaha has produced some very popular motorbikes -- the Fino and the Elegance are very popular, so much so that Honda has copied the Fino with the Scoopie. Both are available, and consumers will decide which they like better. The Yamaha situation is not unique to Thailand, as you suggest. Check to see how many factories Yamaha has close worldwide in the last year. But maybe it is all part of a very successful worldwide conspiracy, or maybe (just maybe), riders and buyers like Hondas better!

Mr.English teacher give it a rest. Stop nitpicking as your English isn't perfect either.

My English is perfect, but that is not the point. I was circuitously suggesting that "worth noting" (as written by the poster) should be "worth nothing" (which is what happens when you insert the "h"), which is what, I believe, the comments about Honda driving out the competition in Thailand through illegal trade practices are worth -- nothing! Next time, I will insert ["this is a joke"] so that even the mentally challenged readers (if the shoe fits) will undertand. No question, you would flunk my class......

If by "a good product" you mean giving people what they want at a reasonable price, then McDonanlds truely does produce "a good product". Its not gourmet food

I was joking about the English teacher bit. You're an English teacher? LOL

[nikster]

Your post would make much more sense if you had started it "Once upon a time.......", because it truly is a fairy tale. There is a typo in the 4th word of the third paragraph -- you forgot the "h" after the "t" and before the "i". If by "a good product" you mean giving people what they want at a reasonable price, then McDonanlds truely does produce "a good product". Its not gourmet food, but it doesn't cost 50 quid per person or take an hour and a half to be served as it does in a fancy restaurant (perhaps that is the only "good" product in your world), and it's cheap and quick for folks on the run (I prefer a Whopper at Burger King, but that's only because I am a gourmet). And perhaps your friend the Honda dealer was speaking in Thai and you didn't understand, or perhaps he sells Hondas in Timbuktu. If you walk into any/every Honda dealer that I have ever seen in Thailand it also sells Yamaha -- nobody has been pushed out or forced to switch from one to another! They all sell both. What better opportunity could anyone (as a buyer) want -- you can compare every feature side-by-side and negotiate the price on each bike with the same person, and do that at multiple shops -- the best man (at least in the eyes/minds of the consumer) wins. Yamaha dealers are everywhere, just open your eyes. And Yamaha has produced some very popular motorbikes -- the Fino and the Elegance are very popular, so much so that Honda has copied the Fino with the Scoopie. Both are available, and consumers will decide which they like better. The Yamaha situation is not unique to Thailand, as you suggest. Check to see how many factories Yamaha has close worldwide in the last year. But maybe it is all part of a very successful worldwide conspiracy, or maybe (just maybe), riders and buyers like Hondas better!

Mr.English teacher give it a rest. Stop nitpicking as your English isn't perfect either.

My English is perfect, but that is not the point.

Irony, right? If not see above and please improve, thanks!

I have to agree with you though that the idea that Honda has sold under cost and paid off the competition is preposterous.

[nikster]

....

I do know from experience that honda and toyota cars are very popular for their reliability. My toyota corolla got 28-34 mpg and was still quite peppy for a 1.5ltr 4-cyl. The primary reason why i bought it was because of my family and friend's history with foreign cars and my own experience with them when i used to [more than just] valet park cars.

I did learn that many of the fancy cars were just names for status only. For the price, they rarely had anything to do with features or practicality.

I agree that Toyota cars and Honda motorcycles have similar status and for similar reasons - they make up 90% of all cars/bikes 20 years or older. Because they last.

When I first got to the US 10 years ago, the car to buy for the newly arrived on a tight budget was a 10 year old Toyota. Me and friends had these cars, they often had close to 200,000 miles on them (that's 300,000km) and they were running just fine - no issues apart from normal maintenance. Even when something had to be replaced, the parts were cheap and easy to install. But the most impressive thing to me was how well these cars were running.

Toyota actually invented the radical dedication to quality so this was no accident. Toyota factories were famous for empowering employees and for halting production for any problem. When something didn't work as planned, any worker in the factory had the duty to stop the whole factory. Then the engineers would figure out what had gone wrong, and why, and make changes so it couldn't happen again, and only then start up production again.

In Thailand it's the same thing with the old Honda Dreams... In the 6 years I've owned it I've done oil changes on my Honda Wave 125i and replaced the chain once at 19,000km. Cost: 400 Baht. That's it. Come to think of it, I've never actually oiled the chain - would probably have lasted longer if I'd done that

Edited November 12, 2010 by nikster

[smedly]

when I get on a motorbike taxi I can tell by the feel and the sound of the bike whether it's a Honda or not, Honda just feels more solid and rugged in every way.

[Thailaw]

....

I do know from experience that honda and toyota cars are very popular for their reliability. My toyota corolla got 28-34 mpg and was still quite peppy for a 1.5ltr 4-cyl. The primary reason why i bought it was because of my family and friend's history with foreign cars and my own experience with them when i used to [more than just] valet park cars.

I did learn that many of the fancy cars were just names for status only. For the price, they rarely had anything to do with features or practicality.

I agree that Toyota cars and Honda motorcycles have similar status and for similar reasons - they make up 90% of all cars/bikes 20 years or older. Because they last.

When I first got to the US 10 years ago, the car to buy for the newly arrived on a tight budget was a 10 year old Toyota. Me and friends had these cars, they often had close to 200,000 miles on them (that's 300,000km) and they were running just fine - no issues apart from normal maintenance. Even when something had to be replaced, the parts were cheap and easy to install. But the most impressive thing to me was how well these cars were running.

Toyota actually invented the radical dedication to quality so this was no accident. Toyota factories were famous for empowering employees and for halting production for any problem. When something didn't work as planned, any worker in the factory had the duty to stop the whole factory. Then the engineers would figure out what had gone wrong, and why, and make changes so it couldn't happen again, and only then start up production again.

In Thailand it's the same thing with the old Honda Dreams... In the 6 years I've owned it I've done oil changes on my Honda Wave 125i and replaced the chain once at 19,000km. Cost: 400 Baht. That's it. Come to think of it, I've never actually oiled the chain - would probably have lasted longer if I'd done that

I agree with what you say, but there is a point after which quality is sufficiently good (and quality differences are sufficiently small), that other factors take over in the decision of which motorbike from which manufacturer to buy. In the case of most small size motorbikes, Honda and Yamaha fit in that category -- both produce high quality small motorbikes, and with respect to quality one would not make a bad choice selecting either one. Then, features, style, design, etc. become the factors that determine which motorbike you should buy. If Honda did not make the PCX, I would own a Nouvo Elegance today and be very satisfied with the motorbike from a quality perspective. In all other respects, however, the PCX is the clear winner (except, of course, price). It doesn't happen often, but it is nice when choices/decisions are this easy -- just pick what you really like, and you will have made the right choice (for you).

Edited November 13, 2010 by Thailaw

[Kwasaki]

20cc more and 10cc more whow !!! really fast err there scooters.

When is the toyota motor scooter coming to Thailand l want one.

It is time for your nap.........

Nice one, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[mca]

It might be worth noting that Honda Thailand have been involved in some illegal trade practises in Thailand.

[katabeachbum]

hondas +70% market share in LOS is simple, they made and sold 4 stroke decades before anyone else. low power, but reliable and no expensive 2stroke oil to take care of.

today quality is on par or better with some other brands, but Hondas reputation is still rock solid

big bikes kwaker has 99% of the market, due to only thai made/non importduty bike prices. wonder how long the others are going to allow kwaker to build their reputation in LOS?

[4evermaat]

I agree with what you say, but there is a point after which quality is sufficiently good (and quality differences are sufficiently small), that other factors take over in the decision of which motorbike from which manufacturer to buy. In the case of most small size motorbikes, Honda and Yamaha fit in that category -- both produce high quality small motorbikes, and with respect to quality one would not make a bad choice selecting either one. Then, features, style, design, etc. become the factors that determine which motorbike you should buy. If Honda did not make the PCX, I would own a Nouvo Elegance today and be very satisfied with the motorbike from a quality perspective. In all other respects, however, the PCX is the clear winner (except, of course, price). It doesn't happen often, but it is nice when choices/decisions are this easy -- just pick what you really like, and you will have made the right choice (for you).

yes. With quality being comparable, then the choice is easy. I think its a cultural thing as to why Japanese manufacturers have higher quality than the USA equivalent. In the USA, it's about "What is the least amount of $$ i can manufacture this product for?" or "How much can I get the consumer to pay for this?" In Japan, it's "Did we make sure everything is working 110%?" Another words, JP images of perfection tend to revolve around quality, and USA images of perfection tend to revolve around the bottom line (profitability)

It might be worth noting that Honda Thailand have been involved in some illegal trade practises in Thailand.

Could you elaborate please?

[4evermaat]

hondas +70% market share in LOS is simple, they made and sold 4 stroke decades before anyone else. low power, but reliable and no expensive 2stroke oil to take care of.

today quality is on par or better with some other brands, but Hondas reputation is still rock solid

big bikes kwaker has 99% of the market, due to only thai made/non importduty bike prices. wonder how long the others are going to allow kwaker to build their reputation in LOS?

Where can i find a Kwaker. I've never heard of this brand or model. Im in patong beach, phuket.

[mca]

Could you elaborate please?

Certainly.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/03/31/business/AP-Honda-guilty-of-trade-competition-law-violation-30126038.html

[Thailaw]

It might be worth noting that Honda Thailand have been involved in some illegal trade practises in Thailand.

It has been alleged that Honda Thailand has tried to restrict its dealers to only selling Honda motorcycles, and not the motorcycles of its competitiors. The law has never been enforced in the past, and to my knowledge (at least as of April 2010), Honda has not been found guilty of the alleged violation by a court in Thailand. I have never seen a Honda dealer that did not also sell Yamaha, but that may be a result of the suit, and of course I have not been in them all (or even a significant percentage outside Bangkok, Chiang Mai and Pattaya). It would probably be better to say "It might be worth noting that Honda Thailand has allegedly been involved in some trade practises that are illegal under Thailand law." These restrictions are not illegal and indeed are to be expected in most countries. Nothing stops a competitor from opening a dealership right next door to a Honda dealership. I can understand why the law has never heretofore been enforced.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Thailaw

[katabeachbum]

hondas +70% market share in LOS is simple, they made and sold 4 stroke decades before anyone else. low power, but reliable and no expensive 2stroke oil to take care of.

today quality is on par or better with some other brands, but Hondas reputation is still rock solid

big bikes kwaker has 99% of the market, due to only thai made/non importduty bike prices. wonder how long the others are going to allow kwaker to build their reputation in LOS?

Where can i find a Kwaker. I've never heard of this brand or model. Im in patong beach, phuket.

kawasaki, phuket town, between robinson and the jail

kawasakibigbikesdotcom

[4evermaat]

kawasaki, phuket town, between robinson and the jail

kawasakibigbikesdotcom

Thanks

[Kilgore Trout]

Having a good lineup of scooters at home i can say that the quality or reliability of yamaha are in no way behind of Honda. Honda is being liked more here due to more advertisings and the associated brainwashing effect...

Our Scoopy lost rear indicator after only 500km from new and the Fino seems to be a weak starter....The Click-i is an ok bike but stands nothing behind the Yamaha Nouvo MX( but it was too noisy according to wife and thus we sold it- same we will do with the honda click-i) ...all these bikes we had since new .

Ozzy Osborne, assuming that you had one of the older Tiger Scooters, the current Model line-up from Tiger Bikes has some very decent quality and will not rot in front of your eyes. The Retro i have is fine ( although only 2 month young) but i also bumped into a owner of a 1 year old retro yesterday and the bike was fine, no fading plastics or colors...just a broken mirror of a falling bike at parking.

I had a Boxer 250RS for a year which also had no "rot'ing" problems at all ...are the Tiger Bikes, Japanese quality? Not quite there, but very very close.

here our current bike/scooters @ home

mbox

I don't know about the boxer (I have been intrigued by them, they are cheap) but I knew someone who had a Joker and it was the biggest piece of crap I have ever seen; I can relate to the "rotting before the eyes" on that one.

[Briggsy]

This thread makes no sense. Yamaha have sold Finos and Nouvos by the bucket load.

[jackcorbett]

This thread makes no sense. Yamaha have sold Finos and Nouvos by the bucket load.

Agreed. When it comes to U.S. car sales Toyota and Honda are number one. So this thread makes about as much sense as someone asking "Since Toyota cars and Honda cars are terrific so are all the other Japanese brands crap." Anyone with a lick of sense should know by now that the reason Japanese automobile companies have done so well in the U.S. for the past thirty years is the Japanese are extremely quality conscious. It's not just Toyota or Honda. There's also Nissan and Mazda, Suburu and other companies. When it comes to cameras it's not just Nikon. Canon's are equally good. This does not even account for other companies such as Sony. When it comes right down to it whether it's a stereo or a t.v. or a car or a motorcycle the Japanese are so quality conscious that such products are made about like a Swiss watch.

[katabeachbum]

This thread makes no sense. Yamaha have sold Finos and Nouvos by the bucket load.

Nuovo, Mio and Fino brought Yamaha up to 25-30% market share. Took Honda some years to catch up on the autos. The quality of yammys autos still seem better than Hondas

[mbox]

Having a good lineup of scooters at home i can say that the quality or reliability of yamaha are in no way behind of Honda. Honda is being liked more here due to more advertisings and the associated brainwashing effect...

Our Scoopy lost rear indicator after only 500km from new and the Fino seems to be a weak starter....The Click-i is an ok bike but stands nothing behind the Yamaha Nouvo MX( but it was too noisy according to wife and thus we sold it- same we will do with the honda click-i) ...all these bikes we had since new .

Ozzy Osborne, assuming that you had one of the older Tiger Scooters, the current Model line-up from Tiger Bikes has some very decent quality and will not rot in front of your eyes. The Retro i have is fine ( although only 2 month young) but i also bumped into a owner of a 1 year old retro yesterday and the bike was fine, no fading plastics or colors...just a broken mirror of a falling bike at parking.

I had a Boxer 250RS for a year which also had no "rot'ing" problems at all ...are the Tiger Bikes, Japanese quality? Not quite there, but very very close.

here our current bike/scooters @ home

mbox

I don't know about the boxer (I have been intrigued by them, they are cheap) but I knew someone who had a Joker and it was the biggest piece of crap I have ever seen; I can relate to the "rotting before the eyes" on that one.

Yes, the Joker may have had some issues of plastics and the chrome...even though they still seem running around my town, just look like "faded" .This was some years back & Tiger had to change this and did so, i had my boxer for a year there was no corrosion , charlie has his boxer i think now the 3rd year and must have about 50000 km by now on it....he made actually some photos after the 30000km have a look: http://www.tigersachsclub.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=80

There are more than just our 2 bikes have a look google "tiger sachs forum"

happy trails,

mbox

[mbox]

This thread makes no sense. Yamaha have sold Finos and Nouvos by the bucket load.

Nuovo, Mio and Fino brought Yamaha up to 25-30% market share. Took Honda some years to catch up on the autos. The quality of yammys autos still seem better than Hondas

Thats also my observation...at least on the comparism between click i - nuovo mx , scoopy - fino.

mbox

[GooEng]

the uk bike buying public is more sophisticated and buy for reasons other than price, build quality and reliability.

styling, performance, heritage, fashion, racing lineage, image, etc are all things that are considered by a buyer in the uk that are not necessarily part of the process for the vast majority of bike buyers in thailand.

but ask any uk biker who makes the most reliable bikes with the best build quality and they will all reply HONDA.

in thailand i think build quality and reliability against price and the associated resale value is what matters to most people considering a bike.

you can call it herd mentality, but they can't ALL be wrong, can they?

i ride a suzuki GSX-R1100 purely beacause it IS a GSX-R1100 - heritage, styling, speed, reputation, but when it came to buying a scooter for the missus and me to use for tootling about the place on, i went straight down to the honda shop without a second thought.

Edited November 18, 2010 by joe ekkamai

[jackcorbett]

you can call it herd mentality, but they can't ALL be wrong, can they?

i ride a suzuki GSX-R1100 purely beacause it IS a GSX-R1100 - heritage, styling, speed, reputation, but when it came to buying a scooter for the missus and me to use for tootling about the place on, i went straight down to the honda shop without a second thought.

Yep. They certainly can. You got a Suzuki because you felt it was the best bike of its kind. By the same token, although Honda and Toyota are the leaders in sales in the U.S. and have the best reputations for quality it is a little known fact that out of the entire lineup of Mazda models, it's their sports car the Miata, that has the best reputation for reliability. Mazda has been perfecting this car since 1990. For what it is, it's about as perfect as such machinery can get so as good as Hondas and Toyotas are, I'll bet the Miata is even more reliable than the typical car in either company's lineup. For that matter, in the 1960's when it was obvious Ford had more reliable cars, GM still was number one on the American market and the reason was....that herd mentality.

[jackcorbett]

Yamaha's 125 X Max Check the reviews out on this machine from Yamaha. Thing is it's not available in Thailand. But so much for all that quibbling way back about Yamaha's 135 c.c. Elegance being the only bike in its class that lacks fuel injection. The facts are that both Yamaha and Honda have bikes they are selling elsewhere that most of us have never ridden, seen, or even heard of before. I'd say that all things considered when Yamaha came out with its 135 cc. Elegance that it substantially outclassed Honda's Air Blade, but now Honda has counterattacked with its PCX and from what I can see Honda's now outselling Yamaha by a huge margin in Pattaya at least. The PCX is a terrific looking bike. From what I've heard and read it offers great range---around 300 kilometers off a 6.2 liter fuel tank and this range is due to excellent fuel economy compared to that relatively large fuel tank 6.2 liters to the Nouvo Elegance's 4,8 and the Air Blade's 4. And now Honda's just brought to the market what appears to be a substantially improved CBR 150 and I really liked the old one I test drove in Krabi. And soon there will be that 250 Honda single for just 100,000 baht. I'm tempted, really tempted to just keep the Elegance and get either the CBR 150 just because I like bikes in general, both of them are very affordable, both are great looking, and I really like the idea of having great range (for a motorbike) particularly the 150 CBR which with its new fuel injection system, having just 150 cc's to begin with and 13 liter fuel tank just might get close to 300 miles down the road between gas stations.

But no matter how much I might want to buy one of these two new compelling Honda bikes, I keep thinking that neither will do nearly as well the kinds of things my Elegance is already doing such as carrying lots of groceries--for me that is for the kind of driving environment I'm dealing with. So I'd keep the Elegance while buying one of the two Honda's just for fun. Then I look at that 125 c.c. X Max and realize it's got a 250 c.c. bigger brother. Both have fuel tanks that are twice as large as the Elegance's and fuel injection. Both have a lot of carrying capacity for groceries and other things. I believe that X Max has something like 14 horsepower to the PCX's 10 horsepower so I'm now thinking that Yamaha is going to be offering something really exciting to the Thai market before too long. Honda's already got the 300 SH i which it's introduced some time ago in other countries and from the reviews it's quite a machine. If it introduced it at the right price here in Thailand it would trounce the competition. By no means would I rate Yamaha as being a superior company to Honda and I sure wouldn't count Yamaha out either. And now with Honda coming up with three big winners in a row...starting with the PCX and the CBR 150 and 250 CB I think we can expect Yamaha to pull out all the stops here in Thailand something that will completely outclass the PCX, as good as it is. Like Honda it's got the technology already there waiting in the wings and as far as quality, both are about as good as it gets.

[MaiChai]

I am not a great lover of Hondas. I always think Yamaha/Suzuki/Kawasaki are ahead of Honda when it comes to modern design and technology and give you more for your money. However, Honda always designs something well, and then churns out zillions of them at high quality. You can see this in the fuel injection design for small bikes; design well once and replicate across many models. Then the parts business becomes easy for them, and you are assured of long life for your bike in terms of good build and availability of spares as they limit the number of models available.

More recently I have been quite disappointed with the quality of Honda spares; especially for Thai bikes where the spares are made in Thailand. I think what has happened here is that the Honda bike business model is split between making money on new bikes and spares, and in Thailand Honda have tried to snuff out copy parts by selling their parts at very low prices. However, what also suffers is quality.

Yamaha has a bit of catch up to do on the fuel injection on small bikes. While they led the way in auto scooters here, they have lost some ground since Honda has fought back, with more fuel efficient models. I am sure Yamaha are working on fuel injection. lets face it how many new cars have carbs? Point made I think! The Nouvo MX is a classic in my opinion and set the standard for autos. These are a brilliant 2nd hand buy.

Always been quite impressed with Suzuki small bikes. We have a Smash 110, and its bullet proof. I mean you can really abuse it and it keeps going on and on. I am waiting for the engine to die, but it never gives up! The small autos are also very nice; well designed, lots of good technology and priced very competivitly.