Is Pattaya Going Downmarket?

[FarangBuddha]

Went out last night for drinks at Dusit D2 and then a bite to eat at Central Festival. D2 was dead...as was the entire Dusit hotel. We wanted to eat there, but not a single customer.

At Central, there were a bunch of farang couple tourists....and some really hot gals. Gives us something else to look at. Both men and women were very well dressed and eating and shopping.

I even saw an Indian/Pakistani couple buying some stuff from one of those carts.

Feel sorry for the Dusit Group...that D2 must be a white elephant (they did get the colour right). I mean, building a post "hip" boutique hotel at Second Road at the top of soi Yamoto...WHAT WERE THEY THINKING! Anyone looking to pay such expensive room rates would not want to be in this location. Of course, they had no way of knowing to know that The Avenue Mall would descend into a ticky-tacky flee-market every nite.

As to upmarket or downmarket, as always, Pattaya will have a markets for everyone...up and down. We've always had the Royal Cliff and Dusit (now joined by Sheraton, Hilton, Holiday Inn, and others to follow) on the high end and we've had B 300 guesthouses and everything in-between. Maybe that's why Pattaya does seem to carry on no matter what the generally prevailing economic winds.

[CGW]

If you were to look at Pattaya over the past years from the governments view point, I am sure they would see it as a ongoing success story, the more 5 star hotels and shopping centers that are built give them more taxable income, I would guess that the tax income for Pattaya has gone up hugely in recent years, don't think the bar beers would contribute much!

[cardholder]

If you were to look at Pattaya over the past years from the governments view point, I am sure they would see it as a ongoing success story, the more 5 star hotels and shopping centers that are built give them more taxable income, I would guess that the tax income for Pattaya has gone up hugely in recent years, don't think the bar beers would contribute much!

Don't let the BiB hear that

[pmgthailand]

I don't think that you can use "upmarket" and "Pattaya" in the same sentence. The two terms are diametrically opposed in heir meanings.

:blink:

[tropo]

I still don't see it as a family resort destination

Yet the families keep coming.

[tropo]

I don't think that you can use "upmarket" and "Pattaya" in the same sentence. The two terms are diametrically opposed in heir meanings.

:blink:

So how would you account for the numerous 5 star hotels? There's plenty of hotels and restaurants for the upper market.

[pmgthailand]

Having five star hotels and shopping centres does not turn the worlds biggest bordello into upmarket, Puerto Portals, Majorca is upmarket, Cannes, South of France is up market, Seychelles is upmarket. Pattaya will always be what it is no matter what you try to build there. It's foundation is rotten to the core!!!

I don't think that you can use "upmarket" and "Pattaya" in the same sentence. The two terms are diametrically opposed in heir meanings.

:blink:

So how would you account for the numerous 5 star hotels? There's plenty of hotels and restaurants for the upper market.

[tropo]

Having five star hotels and shopping centres does not turn the worlds biggest bordello into upmarket, Puerto Portals, Majorca is upmarket, Cannes, South of France is up market, Seychelles is upmarket. Pattaya will always be what it is no matter what you try to build there. It's foundation is rotten to the core!!!

5 star hotels are 5 star hotels. Obviously the investors don't agree with you. There's a brand new Hilton about to open.

[LennyW]

I still don't see it as a family resort destination

Yet the families keep coming.

Seems to be a lot of families milling around this morning.

[Ulysses G.]

How can Pattaya go "down market"? I thought that was the whole point.

Edited November 13, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[RabC]

Having five star hotels and shopping centres does not turn the worlds biggest bordello into upmarket, Puerto Portals, Majorca is upmarket, Cannes, South of France is up market, Seychelles is upmarket. Pattaya will always be what it is no matter what you try to build there. It's foundation is rotten to the core!!!

5 star hotels are 5 star hotels. Obviously the investors don't agree with you. There's a brand new Hilton about to open.

You can not and never will be able to turn a Sows Ear into a Silk Purse

[FarangBuddha]

Having five star hotels and shopping centres does not turn the worlds biggest bordello into upmarket, Puerto Portals, Majorca is upmarket, Cannes, South of France is up market, Seychelles is upmarket. Pattaya will always be what it is no matter what you try to build there. It's foundation is rotten to the core!!!

5 star hotels are 5 star hotels. Obviously the investors don't agree with you. There's a brand new Hilton about to open.

You can not and never will be able to turn a Sows Ear into a Silk Purse

Post that again after the Four Seasons and Ritz Carlton have gotten in on the boom as well, and look silly once more.

And are you saying Cannes, Majorca, and the Seychelles don't have women [and men] on the game as well

[pmgthailand]

I'm sure that you may be right, but having been to these places I really did not see it in your face. What I did see was good roads, clean sidewalks and footpaths free from litter and trash, streams and pools of nice clean water instead of pools and ditches of putrid water, sensible driving, rule of law etc. I could go on. Four Seasons and The Ritz are only cashing in on the fools that continue to come to this place called Pattaya. I agree with the OP, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig! Sooowwweee!!! Upmarket it will never be!

:sick:

Having five star hotels and shopping centres does not turn the worlds biggest bordello into upmarket, Puerto Portals, Majorca is upmarket, Cannes, South of France is up market, Seychelles is upmarket. Pattaya will always be what it is no matter what you try to build there. It's foundation is rotten to the core!!!

5 star hotels are 5 star hotels. Obviously the investors don't agree with you. There's a brand new Hilton about to open.

You can not and never will be able to turn a Sows Ear into a Silk Purse

Post that again after the Four Seasons and Ritz Carlton have gotten in on the boom as well, and look silly once more.

And are you saying Cannes, Majorca, and the Seychelles don't have women [and men] on the game as well

[sillyman99]

You can not and never will be able to turn a Sows Ear into a Silk Purse

Same as I'll never be able to change you from a doom and gloom merchant into a guy that actually has his eyes open and knows what hes talking about.

Such is life.

Edited November 13, 2010 by sillyman99

[RabC]

You can not and never will be able to turn a Sows Ear into a Silk Purse

Same as we will never be able to change you from a doom and gloom merchant into a guy that actually has his eyes open and knows what hes talking about.

I take it you live somewhere other than Pattaya and don't have to dodge the pot holes, open ditches, rancid refuse. I live in Pattaya and have to do this on a daily basis if I go out, but I still live here and want to. I am not slagging Pattaya off but it is not in the same grade as other places and never will be. There is too much corruption to allow the infrastructure to be run and work correctly. Recent case, how much for the new pedestrian crossing lights?Great idea but not here.

Edited November 13, 2010 by RabC

[Jiu-Jitsu]

Perhaps if they re-name the city. Pattaya just doesn't have that cachet. It's an embarrassment. But there are new markets that are perhaps not aware of it's reputation. So they are marketing it to these people.

To the Russians, it is a warm, exotic and affordable location. Of course they would actually like the Thais to speak more Russian, but hey...you can't have everything. Lot of cheap package holidays available to the incoming nationals.

Pattaya will never be a high end destination for westerners. We don't like the hoi polloi populating the beach. The whole place just has a dirty feel to it.

High end means private beachfront villa or perhaps somewhere like Baan Taling Ngam or Tongsai Bay on Samui.

There are a few nice places around Pattaya, but one swallow does not a summer make.

But I can envisage more Thais visiting and perhaps taking a weekend at the Hilton. Perhaps an interesting conference venue and a place for people to use up their frequent flyer miles.

[sillyman99]

You can not and never will be able to turn a Sows Ear into a Silk Purse

Same as we will never be able to change you from a doom and gloom merchant into a guy that actually has his eyes open and knows what hes talking about.

I take it you live somewhere other than Pattaya and don't have to dodge the pot holes, open ditches, rancid refuse. I live in Pattaya and have to do this on a daily basis if I go out, but I still live here and want to. I am not slagging Pattaya off but it is not in the same grade as other places and never will be. There is too much corruption to allow the infrastructure to be run and work correctly. Recent case, how much for the new pedestrian crossing lights?Great idea but not here.

I've lived here for 20 years, and when I came here in 1990, 3rd road was a dirt road as was Soi Buakhow, Foodland didn't exist and Soi post office used to get flooded, wanna go back to that time ?

You come across as a guy that has lived in a Western country, moved to South East Asia and expected everything to be like was in your home country, then again if it was, you wouldn't be here would you ?

Grow up mate.

You come across as a typical spoilt Farang, you're the type of guy that would go to live in the Amazonian rain forest by choice, then complain that there are too many trees and no Mc'donalds and the natives are not as educated as you are.

Yet you knew that before you went there, right ?

So why would you go ?

Edited November 13, 2010 by sillyman99

[CGW]

But I can envisage more Thais visiting and perhaps taking a weekend at the Hilton. Perhaps an interesting conference venue and a place for people to use up their frequent flyer miles.

People forget just how much industry is in this area, they will use these hotels for both "visitors" and conventions.

Dont forget the 14th largest port in the world is just down the road.

[FarangBuddha]

I'm sure that you may be right, but having been to these places I really did not see it in your face. What I did see was good roads, clean sidewalks and footpaths free from litter and trash, streams and pools of nice clean water instead of pools and ditches of putrid water, sensible driving, rule of law etc. I could go on.

Yeah...I've been to a place like that too a few times...think it was called Singapore or something like that. Bored to death each time (but good shopping and food) and glad to be outta there and back home in Pattaya after a few days

[FarangBuddha]

You can not and never will be able to turn a Sows Ear into a Silk Purse

Same as we will never be able to change you from a doom and gloom merchant into a guy that actually has his eyes open and knows what hes talking about.

I take it you live somewhere other than Pattaya and don't have to dodge the pot holes, open ditches, rancid refuse. I live in Pattaya and have to do this on a daily basis if I go out, but I still live here and want to. I am not slagging Pattaya off but it is not in the same grade as other places and never will be. There is too much corruption to allow the infrastructure to be run and work correctly. Recent case, how much for the new pedestrian crossing lights?Great idea but not here.

I've lived here for 20 years, and when I came here in 1990, 3rd road was a dirt road as was Soi Buakhow, Foodland didn't exist and Soi post office used to get flooded, wanna go back to that time ?

You come across as a guy that has lived in a Western country, moved to South East Asia and expected everything to be like was in your home country, then again if it was, you wouldn't be here would you ?

Grow up mate.

You come across as a typical spoilt Farang, you're the type of guy that would go to live in the Amazonian rain forest by choice, then complain that there are too many trees and no Mc'donalds.

Suppose these types also like paying those confiscatory 50%+ income tax and 20%+ VAT taxes in order to fund all those nice roads, clean air, and garbage pick-ups

For me, I'll keep my money and put-up with a few potholes and dirty streets!

[thaimate]

Dont get me wrong,i love Pattaya ,came here over 21 years ago . all i was saying was that we constantly hear that Patters is going upmarket and they keep building these great places ,but it doesnt change the fact that as far as i can see its a town where package tour tourists come and out of towners at the weekend for all the fun of the fair .

you can put a pig into the stable but it is still a pig not a horse.

if the wife and i want upmarket ,we leave Pattaya and go elswhere

[pmgthailand]

I also like Pattaya but I am under no illusions about what it is all about and yes the OP states that it is a lot better than it was 20 years ago, but is is getting better or worse with current developments only time will tell, but it does seem the more prosperous it becomes the worse the corruption; crime and scams become.

Dont get me wrong,i love Pattaya ,came here over 21 years ago . all i was saying was that we constantly hear that Patters is going upmarket and they keep building these great places ,but it doesnt change the fact that as far as i can see its a town where package tour tourists come and out of towners at the weekend for all the fun of the fair .

you can put a pig into the stable but it is still a pig not a horse.

if the wife and i want upmarket ,we leave Pattaya and go elswhere

[craigt3365]

I think you can say the same thing about all of Thailand. It's a third world country. Pattaya, Phuket, etc. are nothing like the cote d'azur, the Italian Rivera, etc. But then again, it's 1/4th the price! And it's warmer here in the winter....

[Lancelot]

Thai tourism is on the upswing for sure. Stop by the floating market this weekend. Global tourism is WAY down...and those who do travel, are spending way less. Plus, tourism is being promoted to the Indian and Chinese market...for sure lots more here in the past few years...and more will come in the future as their economies grow and prosper. 20 years ago I bet it was a rare thing to see a Russian/ex-soviet bloc tourist...now, they are everywhere!

So true about the Russians traveling and I suppose the same could be said about the Chinese and Indians.

I visit Angeles City, Philippines (Pattaya Lite ) a couple of times a yeas and I'm noticing more Indians there. A funny story, an Aussie hotel owner told me. He has a 4 to 6 pm Happy Hour, small San Mig Light beers are only 30 pesos, thats around 21 baht. The three Indians ordered one beer and requested three glasses. They slowly drank their very small portions, then sauntered off.

I don't have a problem with Indians, but I doubt that bar owners are too pleased to have them taking up space in their establishments

Edited November 13, 2010 by Lancelot

[sillyman99]

if the wife and i want upmarket ,we leave Pattaya and go elswhere

Where do you go ?

St Tropez, Cannes, Moanaco/Monte Carlo, Annecy, Geneva, The Bahamas ?

Yes, I'm sure you and the wife are at all the best social occasions !

And while we're at it, why do you choose to live in Pattaya, I mean, you had a choice I assume, there was nobody with a gun against your head forcing you to live in Pattaya, Pattaya infrastructure has only been improved over the years, you have been here 21 years and you complain, was it better 21 years ago, is that why you CHOSE to stay in Pattaya ?

Unbelievable.

What bought you to Pattaya, what bought your wife to Pattaya, and why do you live in a place you don't like ?

This should be interesting, it won't be true, but it may be interesting.

Edited November 13, 2010 by sillyman99

[Jiu-Jitsu]

if the wife and i want upmarket ,we leave Pattaya and go elswhere

Where do you go ?

St Tropez, Cannes, Moanaco/Monte Carlo, Annecy, Geneva, The Bahamas ?

Yes, I'm sure you and the wife are at all the best social occasions !

And while we're at it, why do you choose to live in Pattaya, I mean, you had a choice I assume, there was nobody with a gun against your head forcing you to live in Pattaya, Pattaya infrastructure has only been improved over the years, you have been here 21 years and you complain, was it better 21 years ago, is that why you CHOSE to stay in Pattaya ?

Unbelievable.

What bought you to Pattaya, what bought your wife to Pattaya, and why do you live in a place you don't like ?

This should be interesting, it won't be true, but it may be interesting.

I think you are getting carried away. The conversation is about upmarket destinations, not about whether is is habitable or not.

[RabC]

You can not and never will be able to turn a Sows Ear into a Silk Purse

Same as we will never be able to change you from a doom and gloom merchant into a guy that actually has his eyes open and knows what hes talking about.

I've lived here for 20 years, and when I came here in 1990, 3rd road was a dirt road as was Soi Buakhow, Foodland didn't exist and Soi post office used to get flooded, wanna go back to that time ?

You come across as a guy that has lived in a Western country, moved to South East Asia and expected everything to be like was in your home country, then again if it was, you wouldn't be here would you ?

Grow up mate.

You come across as a typical spoilt Farang, you're the type of guy that would go to live in the Amazonian rain forest by choice, then complain that there are too many trees and no Mc'donalds.

Suppose these types also like paying those confiscatory 50%+ income tax and 20%+ VAT taxes in order to fund all those nice roads, clean air, and garbage pick-ups

For me, I'll keep my money and put-up with a few potholes and dirty streets!

Guys

Get off your High Horses and read my posts or has ignorance made you blind. No where did I slagg Pattaya off. I live here and like living here, warts and all, but it is no Monte Carlo or Cannes. I would no more like to live in those places than I would Nakhon Nowhere, it's a great place to live and has many good points.

If you really believe Pattaya is a true five star world class resort then I suggest you either stop drinking or keep out of the sun as it is affecting your judgement.

[Exsexyman]

Thai tourism is on the upswing for sure. Stop by the floating market this weekend. Global tourism is WAY down...and those who do travel, are spending way less. Plus, tourism is being promoted to the Indian and Chinese market...for sure lots more here in the past few years...and more will come in the future as their economies grow and prosper. 20 years ago I bet it was a rare thing to see a Russian/ex-soviet bloc tourist...now, they are everywhere!

So true about the Russians traveling and I suppose the same could be said about the Chinese and Indians.

I visit Angeles City, Philippines (Pattaya Lite ) a couple of times a yeas and I'm noticing more Indians there. A funny story, an Aussie hotel owner told me. He has a 4 to 6 pm Happy Hour, small San Mig Light beers are only 30 pesos, thats around 21 baht. The three Indians ordered one beer and requested three glasses. They slowly drank their very small portions, then sauntered off.

I don't have a problem with Indians, but I doubt that bar owners are too pleased to have them taking up space in their establishments

I think anyone who has been here a few years will have witnessed this sort of thing. Just a few weeks ago i was sitting outside a thai massage shop chatting to the thai owner, a long standing friend. Due to the lack of business massages were on special offer at 100 baht for one hour. Three Indian guys, very smartly dressed came to the door and said they would pay 200 baht for three massages. Of course they were politely knocked back, but they stood there haggling for about 10 minutes., refused to budge at 250 baht. Were sent on their way with much head shaking and rolling of eyes by the staff. I have also witnessed two Indian guys in a bar with one bottle of water between them, offering one of the service girls 1000 baht to go back to their hotel with them both for the night. Again, they spent ages haggling with her. Eventually they were told to f*** off by the bar owner and they looked genuinely hurt and surprised as they wandered away. I believe Indian people really cannot help it, it is just a national trait to get the cheapest price possible, no matter how rich they may be. A good friend of mine owns some very nice, and quite expensive by pattaya standards, serviced apartments in the outskirts of Jomtien. When he opened about seven years ago one of his first bookings was via e mail from India requesting a one bedroomed apartment. He even gave a discount due to the persistant haggling. Six Indian guys turned up expecting to sleep on the sofas, floor etc. They even tried to re negotiate the price that had been agreed for a one bedroom apartment. He was so stunned he let them stay, (though not at a reduced rate). This scenario re occurred on quite a few occasions so his manager was instructed to make it quite clear to anyone booking from India that one bedroomed were for two people only, two bedroomed for four people etc. They still try it on sometimes though. Two people will turn up, check in etc, then under cover of darkness a few more will sneak in. They get short shrift now though and are sent on their way. Im sure that most people from India do not take things to these extremes, but enough of them do to ensure that a certain reputation precedes them, however unfair this may be to the majority who probably suffer the backlash.

[thaimate]

if the wife and i want upmarket ,we leave Pattaya and go elswhere

Where do you go ?

St Tropez, Cannes, Moanaco/Monte Carlo, Annecy, Geneva, The Bahamas ?

Yes, I'm sure you and the wife are at all the best social occasions !

And while we're at it, why do you choose to live in Pattaya, I mean, you had a choice I assume, there was nobody with a gun against your head forcing you to live in Pattaya, Pattaya infrastructure has only been improved over the years, you have been here 21 years and you complain, was it better 21 years ago, is that why you CHOSE to stay in Pattaya ?

Unbelievable.

What bought you to Pattaya, what bought your wife to Pattaya, and why do you live in a place you don't like ?

This should be interesting, it won't be true, but it may be interesting.

Sorry i assume you did not read my post before replying.

Edited November 13, 2010 by Rimmer
flame

[Rimmer]

We seem to be entering into pointless arguments that will only get deleted and earn warnings so maybe it is time to get back on topic.