Big Bike Volunteer Highway Police--Is There Such A Thing?

[Garry]

Yes, lets have an accident scenario, Ive crashed, and lying in the road in a twisted heep of legs and arms ect, the compound leg fracture is obvious, the bleeding from my nose and mouth, although im wearing a full face helmet is also obvious, so whats the first thing you HYPV would do?

Valid question. So okay BBVHP guys, for those who are not medically trained, what does your training course allow you or give you insight to do at an accident scene?

@ Lickey what's HYPV?

[katabeachbum]

Yes, lets have an accident scenario, Ive crashed, and lying in the road in a twisted heep of legs and arms ect, the compound leg fracture is obvious, the bleeding from my nose and mouth, although im wearing a full face helmet is also obvious, so whats the first thing you HYPV would do?

Pull out my badge, put on my orange HWP vest and switch on my vehicles lights and Hazard and park it to protect you.

Check if you are breathing and if you can speak. Hopefully I speak your language. If you can speak and you have Insurance covering medical, call private hospital Ambulance. If you can not speak, but breathing call public hospital Ambulance or local rescue. Someone else has usually already called public ambulance/rescue and local police, but if you do have insurance I prefere to replace with BKK Hospital Ambulance/private hospital to reduce patients damages. Whle waiting, communicate with you and try to avoid you moving.

When they arrive I try to make sure you are not robbed, and organize salvation of your vehicle and valuables.

If you are not breathing, helmet must off to kiss you and kick you heart

Romantic start

[transam]

Yes, lets have an accident scenario, Ive crashed, and lying in the road in a twisted heep of legs and arms ect, the compound leg fracture is obvious, the bleeding from my nose and mouth, although im wearing a full face helmet is also obvious, so whats the first thing you HYPV would do?

Pull out my badge, put on my orange HWP vest and switch on my vehicles lights and Hazard and park it to protect you.

Check if you are breathing and if you can speak. Hopefully I speak your language. If you can speak and you have Insurance covering medical, call private hospital Ambulance. If you can not speak, but breathing call public hospital Ambulance or local rescue. Someone else has usually already called public ambulance/rescue and local police, but if you do have insurance I prefere to replace with BKK Hospital Ambulance/private hospital to reduce patients damages. Whle waiting, communicate with you and try to avoid you moving.

When they arrive I try to make sure you are not robbed, and organize salvation of your vehicle and valuables.

If you are not breathing, helmet must off to kiss you and kick you heart

Romantic start

Something that happened in my life. No bike though ,

A 28 year old neighbour came home from hospital, where his wife was to have their first child, he has a shower then collapses on the bathroom floor. His mother inlaw was in the house, found him seemingly dead.

I was in the road as usual tinkering with my car when the MIL ran out screaming and distraught, l ran into the house to find the guy not breathing on the bathroom floor, no heart beat. I immediately propped his neck and gave mouth to mouth resuscitation and pumped his heart, took a while but his heart started up but he could not breath on his own so l did that until the ambulance came.

He was taken to the same hospital where his wife who had just given birth. It was determined that he had had a brain Anurism and was brain dead, and the life support would have to be switched off BUT not before the new born babe was put in his arms and his wife could say goodbye.

My point. I had no medical training but managed to bring this guy back to life which l feel made a difference to his wife and in the future his child will be told '' your dad gave you a cuddle '' before he died.

Bit off topic but sometimes one can make a difference.

[Lickey]

Yes, lets have an accident scenario, Ive crashed, and lying in the road in a twisted heep of legs and arms ect, the compound leg fracture is obvious, the bleeding from my nose and mouth, although im wearing a full face helmet is also obvious, so whats the first thing you HYPV would do?

Pull out my badge, put on my orange HWP vest and switch on my vehicles lights and Hazard and park it to protect you.

Check if you are breathing and if you can speak. Hopefully I speak your language. If you can speak and you have Insurance covering medical, call private hospital Ambulance. If you can not speak, but breathing call public hospital Ambulance or local rescue. Someone else has usually already called public ambulance/rescue and local police, but if you do have insurance I prefere to replace with BKK Hospital Ambulance/private hospital to reduce patients damages. Whle waiting, communicate with you and try to avoid you moving.

When they arrive I try to make sure you are not robbed, and organize salvation of your vehicle and valuables.

If you are not breathing, helmet must off to kiss you and kick you heart

Romantic start

Garry HWPV , Highway police voulenteers,

Thanks KBB, thats what i wanted to read,,some kind of comunication with the downed rider, even if unable to speak, even in a coma, people can still understand what is being said about them,

Ive havent turned away fromm some of the posts here about taking the pis with a HWP card, those should really get sorted,

[katabeachbum]

Yes, lets have an accident scenario, Ive crashed, and lying in the road in a twisted heep of legs and arms ect, the compound leg fracture is obvious, the bleeding from my nose and mouth, although im wearing a full face helmet is also obvious, so whats the first thing you HYPV would do?

Pull out my badge, put on my orange HWP vest and switch on my vehicles lights and Hazard and park it to protect you.

Check if you are breathing and if you can speak. Hopefully I speak your language. If you can speak and you have Insurance covering medical, call private hospital Ambulance. If you can not speak, but breathing call public hospital Ambulance or local rescue. Someone else has usually already called public ambulance/rescue and local police, but if you do have insurance I prefere to replace with BKK Hospital Ambulance/private hospital to reduce patients damages. Whle waiting, communicate with you and try to avoid you moving.

When they arrive I try to make sure you are not robbed, and organize salvation of your vehicle and valuables.

If you are not breathing, helmet must off to kiss you and kick you heart

Romantic start

Garry HWPV , Highway police voulenteers,

Thanks KBB, thats what i wanted to read,,some kind of comunication with the downed rider, even if unable to speak, even in a coma, people can still understand what is being said about them,

Ive havent turned away fromm some of the posts here about taking the pis with a HWP card, those should really get sorted,

actually arrived one accident scene. OZ couple +60. he was ok, but wife in lap and seemed dead. No pulse, open dead eyes and ice cold. Communication with husband, allowed to touch her, fist in heart made it start again and husband instructed to keep talking to her and asking questions about her garden or daughter or whatever and she woke up. Some fractures, and as they had good insurance, I replaced local ambulance (rescue pickup) with BKK hospital ambulance.

Made my day

also made me realize I need rubber gloves under my seat, to avoid others blood

the scary thing is, and my reason to stand up for anyone volunteering as HWP or any other organisation, is there was a local police present. but didnt do anything except take their bike keys. He put me in charge when I arrived , and I relieved him of the bike keys.

[LeCharivari]

And we are allowed to drive faster than speedlimits and on any kind of roads, non HWP must pay fine up to 1.000 baht for these minor offenses.

a total of 600 Volunteers and appox 50.000 payed Police are excepted from speeding tickets. What is your problem?

My problem is that your knowledge of the law appears to be lacking rather more than it should be.

Neither you nor any Thai police "are allowed to drive faster than speedlimits and on any kind of roads" except when required to do so on duty, for example in a chase or going to an accident. You and your fellow volunteers are not above the law, as this statement clearly indicates you believe you are - that's my problem with untrained and inexperienced police volunteers.

[LeCharivari]

If you are not breathing, helmet must off to kiss you and kick you heart

Maybe I should have added dangerously incompetent to untrained and inexperienced. Under NO circumstances should you remove a full face helmet from an accident victim to resuscitate them if they do not appear to be breathing unless you are a highly trained medical specialist, with assistants, and even then most medics would avoid doing so. If you can check whether or not the victim is breathing then you can give mouth to mouth, no matter how awkward it may be; moving someone's head and neck so you can take off their helmet could easily kill or paralyse them and it should NEVER be attempted by one person on their own.

The Thai police generally avoid giving first aid because they don't know what they are doing and they realise that. As I prefer competent to friendly I think I'll take Garry up on his sticker.

[Garry]

If you are not breathing, helmet must off to kiss you and kick you heart

Maybe I should have added dangerously incompetent to untrained and inexperienced. Under NO circumstances should you remove a full face helmet from an accident victim to resuscitate them if they do not appear to be breathing unless you are a highly trained medical specialist, with assistants, and even then most medics would avoid doing so. If you can check whether or not the victim is breathing then you can give mouth to mouth, no matter how awkward it may be; moving someone's head and neck so you can take off their helmet could easily kill or paralyze them and it should NEVER be attempted by one person on their own.

The Thai police generally avoid giving first aid because they don't know what they are doing and they realise that. As I prefer competent to friendly I think I'll take Garry up on his sticker.

Definitely valid statements there.

Even as a First Responder for Primary & Secondary care, my training is to assess scene/situation, provide adequate care, try and ensure safety & security for the victim and don't move them unless they are in danger of further injury. Taking off of helmets is not advisable at anytime unless authorised by a qualified medical practitioner. Most responders Will carry barrier kits for CPR procedures. As said previosuly having helping hands is good, but as long as you control the scene and let them know EXACTLY what they can and cannot do, but above all, remain calm at all times.

On the other side of the coin, if you don't know, you don't do...real simple.

[ScubaBuddha]

If you are not breathing, helmet must off to kiss you and kick you heart

Maybe I should have added dangerously incompetent to untrained and inexperienced. Under NO circumstances should you remove a full face helmet from an accident victim to resuscitate them if they do not appear to be breathing unless you are a highly trained medical specialist, with assistants, and even then most medics would avoid doing so. If you can check whether or not the victim is breathing then you can give mouth to mouth, no matter how awkward it may be; moving someone's head and neck so you can take off their helmet could easily kill or paralyse them and it should NEVER be attempted by one person on their own.

The Thai police generally avoid giving first aid because they don't know what they are doing and they realise that. As I prefer competent to friendly I think I'll take Garry up on his sticker.

I'm sorry LeCharivari, I know your heart is in the right place, but you are incorrect. kbb's description was spot on. This is a common misconception though, so don't feel bad or feel that I am slagging you off. A hyper-concern for causing spinal injuries is common. That's not to say it's not a concern, it obviously is.

The rule for removing a full face helmet as it was taught to me in EMT school (which is also the rule for taking any action for a trauma patient) is it should only be done when it is likely to improve the patients condition. Someone who's heart has stopped and requires CPR is considered dead. There is no worse state of health than being dead. Yes, improper removal of a motorcycle helmet after an accident can cause serious head injuries or paralysis, but you can't hurt a dead person. Therefore, if taking a relatively invasive step such as carefully removing the helmet while maintaining c-spine alignment and avoiding traction or pressure as best you can is required in order for you to do CPR, then by all means, remove the helmet. Removing a helmet is something often taught to even lay responders, not just "highly trained medical specialists." You have one valid point.. unless it's a situation such as the one I described above, the correct procedure does require two people.

All BBHPV's in class 5 should know when and how this should be done because I discussed it in front of the class at the accident scene management module at the BBHPV seminar which covered helmet removal in surprising detail, along with another farang volunteer who happens to be a retired spinal surgeon, who then also translated it for the Thai's. Sadly, I cannot say the same is true for most of Thailand's "emergency responders."

I suggest we all read this and then read it again. How to safely remove a full face helmet when CPR is needed:

http://www.ehow.com/how_7368704_remove-motorcycle-helmet-after-accident.html

.

Edited March 16, 2011 by ScubaBuddha

[ScubaBuddha]

Yes, lets have an accident scenario, Ive crashed, and lying in the road in a twisted heep of legs and arms ect, the compound leg fracture is obvious, the bleeding from my nose and mouth, although im wearing a full face helmet is also obvious, so whats the first thing you HYPV would do?

Scene Assessment. (Is it safe to approach?)

BigBikeBkk and I nearly rear ended two cars stopped in the fast lane of a dual carriageway near his house the other day. We commented that someone is surely going to pile into them soon. (Thai's leave their cars where they are even in a small fender bender until insurance can get out and take pictures) We passed by 10 minutes later and sure enough. Major accident with at least two fatalities that we could see. I counted 12 ambulances on location or en-route.

If your point was about the full face helmet, I think I covered that in the other post.

Edited March 16, 2011 by ScubaBuddha

[ScubaBuddha]

I just found this link which accurately describes in more detail when the helmet should be removed, not just how.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2119691_safely-remove-helmet-after-head.html

To sum up, don't let the fact that the victim is wearing a helmet stop you from providing the lifesaving care he or she needs.

.

Edited March 16, 2011 by ScubaBuddha

[LeCharivari]

If you are not breathing, helmet must off to kiss you and kick you heart

Maybe I should have added dangerously incompetent to untrained and inexperienced. Under NO circumstances should you remove a full face helmet from an accident victim to resuscitate them if they do not appear to be breathing unless you are a highly trained medical specialist, with assistants, and even then most medics would avoid doing so. If you can check whether or not the victim is breathing then you can give mouth to mouth, no matter how awkward it may be; moving someone's head and neck so you can take off their helmet could easily kill or paralyse them and it should NEVER be attempted by one person on their own.

The Thai police generally avoid giving first aid because they don't know what they are doing and they realise that. As I prefer competent to friendly I think I'll take Garry up on his sticker.

I'm sorry LeCharivari, I know your heart is in the right place, but you are incorrect. kbb's description was spot on. This is a common misconception though, so don't feel bad or feel that I am slagging you off. A hyper-concern for causing spinal injuries is common. That's not to say it's not a concern, it obviously is. .........

Well, I'm sorry SB, but we obviously not only went to very different "EMT schools" and more importantly take a very different view on what constitutes proper medical training and who should give medical assistance which could kill or paralyse someone. At the one where I was invited to lecture, and where I qualified as a CMT 1, B1 Medic and UFAInstructor, this was a procedure that should only be attempted after specialist training and by two people. Maybe you should read your own link in more detail: "Emergency medical technicians (EMTs) are specially trained in how to safely remove motorcycle helmets after an accident". A single "discussion" at one "module" in a 2 day "seminar" after which you "graduate" does not mean that those you spoke to "know when and how this should be done" - it simply makes them imagine that they do and makes them considerably more dangerous. One person at least who attended obviously did not understand it (or your own training was incorrect as you say he was "spot on"), as he posted that "If you are not breathing, helmet must off to kiss you and kick you heart" (my underline), which is totally incorrect as this is strictly a last resort, not a "must" do. As I am sure you know, medical training takes considerable time and dedicated practice and, unfortunately, that is not a requirement for BBHPVs.

If you volunteer for a Rescue service they check your experience, training and interest before applying for a work permit for you and you then need to attend regular training sessions and to be readily available to "scrape someone off the road" when requested.

If you volunteer for the police (or at least the Big Bike branch) they make no checks, you only need to sleep through two days of largely irrelevant lectures that some farangs attending can't understand, you then "graduate" and are given your badges which amongst other things can be used to allow you to drive illegally on the expressway and on pedestrian streets, not wear a helmet, and not pay traffic fines. As there's no requirement for any further training or even to be available for any duties at all its not difficult to see the attraction for some.

My apologies, this was incorrect and incomplete. Having checked the position with Sawingboriboon and received the correct information, the situation with Rescue organisations is that farang volunteers fall into two categories. The first, already referred to, is where they are either on call or part of a shift, when a work permit is required and applied for; very few apply for this. The second, which is less recognised as volunteers do not put stickers on their bikes and cars, etc, is for those who are already or are prepared to be fully trained as EMTs, who simply assist at any accident scene they happen to come across; no work permit is required as they are only doing what any other trained passer-by would and should do and the only "badge" available is a small card detailing their training/qualifications and a logo on a hi-viz vest.

I should have added the above to the information concerning Rescue organisations, as it seems to meet the "SAMARITAN" category pretty neatly, just as I should apparently have added that BBHWP volunteers consider that they "are allowed to drive faster than speedlimits and on any kind of roads" as "a total of 600 Volunteers and appox 50.000 payed Police are excepted from speeding tickets" and that they can also adorn their other vehicles, pick-ups etc, with HWP stickers.

(for the record, although I had considerable medical training and am qualified this was not my specialty or my profession)

Edited March 17, 2011 by LeCharivari

[katabeachbum]

If you are not breathing, helmet must off to kiss you and kick you heart

Maybe I should have added dangerously incompetent to untrained and inexperienced. Under NO circumstances should you remove a full face helmet from an accident victim to resuscitate them if they do not appear to be breathing unless you are a highly trained medical specialist, with assistants, and even then most medics would avoid doing so. If you can check whether or not the victim is breathing then you can give mouth to mouth, no matter how awkward it may be; moving someone's head and neck so you can take off their helmet could easily kill or paralyse them and it should NEVER be attempted by one person on their own.

The Thai police generally avoid giving first aid because they don't know what they are doing and they realise that. As I prefer competent to friendly I think I'll take Garry up on his sticker.

when not breathing and no pulse you can give up and watch patient with fullfacehelmet still on. Dead

or you can take helmet off as we where taught in HWP class 5, and try to get patient back to life by breathing and heart assistance, possibly causing spine or neck injuries, but a chanse to survive

you have a few seconds to choose, whats your choise?

[Garry]

Gentlemen , I honestly think that this thread has turned into an informative direction with a lot of information coming out about accident scene assessment and procedures for the informed and not so informed, plus a clear enough understanding of the responsibilities of BBVHP personnel.

In closing, there a lot of good people out there willing to help someone in distress. Whether you choose to act is entirely up to you, your knowledge / training if any and your self-confidence.

[katabeachbum]

All BBHPV's in class 5 should know when and how this should be done because I discussed it in front of the class at the accident scene management module at the BBHPV seminar which covered helmet removal in surprising detail, along with another farang volunteer who happens to be a retired spinal surgeon, who then also translated it for the Thai's. Sadly, I cannot say the same is true for most of Thailand's "emergency responders."

.

rather impressed with the knowledge displayed by those guys from BKK hospital ambulance team teaching us. And of course our fellow HWP HD rider and spinal surgeon

not impressed by most rescue ambulances. lowerd pimped up 1 ton pickups, no equipment and untrained staff

[ScubaBuddha]

^ LeChariveri...please re-read my comments again. Your statements above such as "..who should give medical assistance which could kill or paralyse someone" indicate you have missed some important points, such as:

Someone who's heart has stopped and requires CPR is considered dead. There is no worse state of health than being dead. Yes, improper removal of a motorcycle helmet after an accident can cause serious head injuries or paralysis, but you can't hurt a dead person.

Why are you so worried about paralyzing a dead person? That obviously makes no sense.

Just because "Emergency medical technicians (EMTs) are specially trained in how to safely remove motorcycle helmets after an accident" does not mean that others are not trained in it. To come to that conclusion shows inductive reasoning. I have done some more searching and I cannot find any reference which reinforces your comments:

Under NO circumstances should you remove a full face helmet from an accident victim to resuscitate them if they do not appear to be breathing unless you are a highly trained medical specialist, with assistants, and even then most medics would avoid doing so. If you can check whether or not the victim is breathing then you can give mouth to mouth, no matter how awkward it may be; moving someone's head and neck so you can take off their helmet could easily kill or paralyse them and it should NEVER be attempted by one person on their own."

But have found several that reinforce what I was taught and what I teach in my First aid, CPR and BLS courses, which is to remove the helmet if livesaving CPR is needed. (I.E. the patient is already dead and you are going to try to revive them.

Visit this site again and see step #4: http://www.ehow.com/how_2119691_safely-remove-helmet-after-head.html

Determine whether the unconscious victim is breathing. Monitor him if he is. Remove his helmet if he is not, so that you can clear his airways and begin CPR. Remove a Helmet Only in an Emergency.

This article was created by a professional writer and edited by experienced copy editors, both qualified members of the Demand Media Studios community. All articles go through an editorial process that includes subject matter guidelines, plagiarism review, fact-checking, and other steps in effort to provide reliable information.

How long ago did you received your training and where? Your advice strikes me as old-school thinking, or maybe a regional difference in guidelines. As of 3 years ago this is what the American NHSTA recommends and teaches.

So I understand, in your expert opinion, the treatment proscribed for a patient in full cardiac and pulmonary arrest and wearing a full face helmet is to do nothing? You suggest there is a way to establish an airway and provide rescue breathes while the victim is still wearing a full face helmet. (This assuming you have no airway adjuncts handy) Can you elaborate on that?

Whether you are a lay rescuer or a full paramedic, the ABCD'S are the same. To illustrate my point further, here is a video from 2007 of a Basic First Aid course in the U.K. Notice when the students forget to undo the strap, the instructor reminds them that it's ok because "He was already dead."

Here is a professionally made video demonstrating proper helmet removal by ERT UK, a UK based company which provides Basic first aid/CPR and other entry level certifications for the non-professional first responder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JWiw0HFpDo

I think we need to get one of these stickers for you:

http://www.helmet-stickers.com/xcart/product.php?productid=2492

Seriously though, I would wear this one:

:jap:

.

Edited March 17, 2011 by ScubaBuddha

[transam]

From what l have seen in LOS l would gladly want to see a farang face, even if l was to die shortly, hmmmm, is that a racial comment, don't think so but l would go reasonably happy.

[Garry]

I think we need to get one of these stickers for you:

http://www.helmet-st...?productid=2492

Seriously though, I would wear this one:

:jap:

.

SB what does the Thai script say. Same as the above or different?

[LeCharivari]

you have a few seconds to choose, whats your choise?

My choice is based on a considerable amount of medical training and supervised practice; yours is, apparently, based solely on what was explained to you in theory in one brief presentation. You are not in a position to make that choice, nor are you in a position to decide if the casualty is dead or not - all you can do is make a wild guess and hope for the best. While that may be good enough for a casual passer-by who is trying to give any assistance he can in the absence of anyone else it is, in my opinion, not good enough for someone who is expected t be able to give trained medical assistance and who takes charge of an accident scene.

You do not have just "a few second to choose" under these circumstances. If that is all the time you have allowed yourself you have not given yourself sufficient time to establish correctly whether the casualty is alive or dead, is breathing or has a pulse - that takes time, particularly for someone who has little practical training. Assuming that someone is "dead" because you haven't found a pulse or any vital signs in "a few seconds" so you "must" take off their helmet and start resuscitation is simply wrong.

[LeCharivari]

^ LeChariveri...please re-read my comments again. Your statements above such as "..who should give medical assistance which could kill or paralyse someone" indicate you have missed some important points ........

No, re-read your comments and re-read and re-viewed your links and don't think I missed anything.

Agreed, "you can't hurt a dead person", but unfortunately at most accident scenes there isn't an instructor there to tell you that "He was already dead." That is something that whoever is giving first aid has to establish for themselves and, in many cases, it is not something that a "lay rescuer" can establish in "a few seconds". To say that you "must" remove a helmet, resuscitate and "kick you heart" once you have jumped to that conclusion simply because a casualty does not seem to be breathing is simply wrong - its an option after you have made more checks.

I never said that EMTs were the only people trained in how to remove a helmet; the quote was from your link and what I actually wrote was "Maybe you should read your own link in more detail: "Emergency medical technicians (EMTs) are specially trained in how to safely remove motorcycle helmets after an accident". A single "discussion" at one "module" in a 2 day "seminar" after which you "graduate" does not mean that those you spoke to know when and how this should be done".

Your second link, which you have re-posted and quoted, clearly says: The only way to remove a helmet safely following a head or neck trauma is to be certain that you need to do so. This means determining whether the spinal cord is severely injured, whether the helmet itself is contributing to the injury or whether the incident was mild enough to disregard. Remove a helmet only in an emergency. Do you honestly think that someone whose medical "training" is limited to "A single "discussion" at one "module" in a 2 day "seminar" is capable of "carefully removing the helmet while maintaining c-spine alignment and avoiding traction or pressure" (your words)? If you do then it makes all the time you and many others spent being trained and practicing this seem rather pointless.

I have never claimed to be an "expert" - I would have thought that my closing comment made that fairly clear, and I don't see much point comparing qualifications that neither of us can verify here.

My point was, and is, that anyone who is untrained, whether a casual passer-by or a Big Bike Volunteer, is not in a position to either identify or to proscribe treatment "for a patient in full cardiac and pulmonary arrest". I don't know what part of that you find hard to understand, or why you think that the treatment given by "a lay rescuer or a full paramedic" should or would be the same - if it is, why bother training medics at all?.

[LeCharivari]

Scene Assessment. (Is it safe to approach?)

BigBikeBkk and I nearly rear ended two cars stopped in the fast lane of a dual carriageway near his house the other day. We commented that someone is surely going to pile into them soon. (Thai's leave their cars where they are even in a small fender bender until insurance can get out and take pictures) We passed by 10 minutes later and sure enough. Major accident with at least two fatalities that we could see. I counted 12 ambulances on location or en-route.

Under these circumstances I can see the point in BBHPVs, who if they had been on the spot instead of you and BBB could easily have done as KBB said ("put on my orange HWP vest and switch on my vehicles lights and Hazard" ...etc) and saved lives.

(I am presuming that you were at class 5 of the BBHPV as a guest speaker/instructor, not a volunteer).

[ScubaBuddha]

Under NO circumstances should you remove a full face helmet from an accident victim to resuscitate them ....

...its an option....

Was that so difficult?

[katabeachbum]

you have a few seconds to choose, whats your choise?

My choice is based on a considerable amount of medical training and supervised practice; yours is, apparently, based solely on what was explained to you in theory in one brief presentation. You are not in a position to make that choice, nor are you in a position to decide if the casualty is dead or not - all you can do is make a wild guess and hope for the best. While that may be good enough for a casual passer-by who is trying to give any assistance he can in the absence of anyone else it is, in my opinion, not good enough for someone who is expected t be able to give trained medical assistance and who takes charge of an accident scene.

You do not have just "a few second to choose" under these circumstances. If that is all the time you have allowed yourself you have not given yourself sufficient time to establish correctly whether the casualty is alive or dead, is breathing or has a pulse - that takes time, particularly for someone who has little practical training. Assuming that someone is "dead" because you haven't found a pulse or any vital signs in "a few seconds" so you "must" take off their helmet and start resuscitation is simply wrong.

you just waisted to many seconds

already established no pulse and no breathing, the seconds you just wasted patient turned brain dead due to lack of oxygene. Totally dead, heart and brain

my patient survived thanks to taking lid off and make her breath again

when no pulse, no heartbeat, no breathing is established you may have just a few seconds to save brain. Fullface must off to kick her alive again

at least my years in medical school taught me something

[LeCharivari]

Under NO circumstances should you remove a full face helmet from an accident victim to resuscitate them ....

...its an option....

Was that so difficult?

No more difficult than editing my post so that you do not include "if ........ unless". When I learnt English that was a condition, making it an OPTION - NOT A "MUST".

Edited March 18, 2011 by LeCharivari

[ScubaBuddha]

Under NO circumstances should you remove a full face helmet from an accident victim to resuscitate them ....

...its an option....

Was that so difficult?

No more difficult than editing my post so that you do not include "if ........ unless". When I learnt English that was a condition, making it an OPTION - NOT A "MUST".

Yes, your options are to do nothing and let the person die or take their helmet off in order to establish an airway and provide rescue breathes.

[LeCharivari]

you have a few seconds to choose, whats your choise?

My choice is based on a considerable amount of medical training and supervised practice; yours is, apparently, based solely on what was explained to you in theory in one brief presentation. You are not in a position to make that choice, nor are you in a position to decide if the casualty is dead or not - all you can do is make a wild guess and hope for the best. While that may be good enough for a casual passer-by who is trying to give any assistance he can in the absence of anyone else it is, in my opinion, not good enough for someone who is expected t be able to give trained medical assistance and who takes charge of an accident scene.

You do not have just "a few second to choose" under these circumstances. If that is all the time you have allowed yourself you have not given yourself sufficient time to establish correctly whether the casualty is alive or dead, is breathing or has a pulse - that takes time, particularly for someone who has little practical training. Assuming that someone is "dead" because you haven't found a pulse or any vital signs in "a few seconds" so you "must" take off their helmet and start resuscitation is simply wrong.

you just waisted to many seconds

already established no pulse and no breathing, the seconds you just wasted patient turned brain dead due to lack of oxygene. Totally dead, heart and brain

my patient survived thanks to taking lid off and make her breath again

when no pulse, no heartbeat, no breathing is established you may have just a few seconds to save brain. Fullface must off to kick her alive again

at least my years in medical school taught me something

Not too sure what you were doing during your "years in medical school", but it must have been a long time ago. The idea that cutting off the flow of oxygenated blood to the brain caused irreversible damage and brain death after ten seconds was disproved in 1974 and has been accepted beyond any doubt since 1983. While restricting any blood flow to the brain can be damaging and should be avoided if at all possible current medical teaching (which has been the teaching for three decades) is that loss of blood to the brain for ten seconds usually causes unconsciousness (rather different from "totally dead, heart and brain"), but brain damage does not occur for between 4 and 5 minutes - often longer, depending on the circumstances. Depending on how soon after the accident you arrived at the accident scene this should give you the time to make a proper assessment and avoid jumping to conclusions.

With all due respect to your years in medical school and ScubaBuddhas's internet videos I suggest you both get some proper refresher training before your idea of what you "must" do kills someone.

[LeCharivari]

As my final thought on this thread, my initial reservations of the “Big Bike” Police Volunteers were based on my reservations about the various Police Volunteer factions in Pattaya, which vary from the ridiculously dangerous to the simply ridiculous – namely from Colonel Seafood’s Anti-Terrorist SWAT team to the multi-badged blackshirts patrolling Walking Street.

My criticisms, however, are based purely on what the two members of the BB volunteers have posted here – and I imagine that they are probably two of the most responsible, so I hate to think what some of the other members must be like.

One quite happily demonstrates his ability at “scene assessment” by describing how he nearly rear-ended two cars that had been involved in an accident on a dual carriageway, commented that there was going to be a pile-up soon, and continued straight past – 10 minutes later again driving straight past what was by then a major accident with dead and injured. Good “scene assessment”, but not quite what I would have hoped for from a dedicated police volunteer and supposedly fully trained medic.

The other, whom I had previously respected as one of the better informed and more rational posters, has posted repeatedly about how being a volunteer has allowed him to freely ride the Expressway, avoid speeding fines, ride in pedestrian areas, and pay a reduced fine for wearing a helmet, while only posting once about actually doing the job most people would expect him to do.

I accept the Thai police are short of manpower and that they leave a lot to be desired in many areas, but I just can’t see that giving a police badge and the authority that goes with it to people who are either not going to use it or who are going to both use it and abuse it, with no checks and minimal training, is going to solve any of these problems.

For those who have read the conflicting views on helmet removal, I can only say that if you are genuinely interested, particularly if you ride in a group or with a pillion, then ignore anything you have read on the internet (especially here) and get some genuine medical training and practice it regularly - hopefully you will never need to use it,.but if the occasion arises then at least there's a better chance of you doing the right thing.

[ScubaBuddha]

As my final thought on this thread, my initial reservations of the “Big Bike” Police Volunteers were based on my reservations about the various Police Volunteer factions in Pattaya, which vary from the ridiculously dangerous to the simply ridiculous – namely from Colonel Seafood’s Anti-Terrorist SWAT team to the multi-badged blackshirts patrolling Walking Street.

Yeah I could tell you had some preconceived notions coming into all this.

While you are complaining about the lack of training of farangs that get involved volunteering with the police here, please keep things in perspective and remember that the real police have very little training also. And the emergency crews have little or none at all unless from private hospital.

Not to defend him, but to be fair, that "Sifu" guy's "team" appeared to be all Thai. I think a lot of people imagined his role as much more than it was. By all indications his role was merely that of benefactor and weaponless defense instructor. Not saying he wasn't a full on nutter, but I never saw any hard evidence he ever carried or used weapons on duty in public. He donated a Hummer and got to drive it as a reward.

One quite happily demonstrates his ability at “scene assessment” by describing how he nearly rear-ended two cars that had been involved in an accident on a dual carriageway, commented that there was going to be a pile-up soon, and continued straight past – 10 minutes later again driving straight past what was by then a major accident with dead and injured. Good “scene assessment”, but not quite what I would have hoped for from a dedicated police volunteer and supposedly fully trained medic.

Ugg. You are being so pedantic. Ok. I will elaborate since this seems such an issue for you that you now mention it twice.

I wasn't driving. I was a passenger in someone else's car. I was on my way from and then to the airport to catch a flight. I had neither my ID nor my reflective vest. Even if I did, as anyone living here knows, there is no way some Thai's are going to listen to a farang telling them to move their cars. Maybe you missed the bit where I said there were 12 ambulances either already at the scene or enroute. There was clearly nothing for me to do at that point.

As for the helmet issue, since you are apparently dismissing the links as evidence of anything, I wish I had my EMT manual I would attempt to scan the relevant pages, but I don't.

This is a really good, balanced article.

http://theemtspot.com/2010/04/03/the-c-spine-helmet-issue/

For the sake of the confused readers, can we at least both agree that if a patient clearly needs their airway cleared and ventilations, then a full face helmet must come off if the responders have been trained to do so?

Will you also admit that helmet removal is taught now in many basic first aid/CPR courses?

These points are all I was trying to make. I wasn't focusing on KBB's use of the word "must" in his brief, none clinical description of an accident scene.

Edited March 18, 2011 by ScubaBuddha

[ScubaBuddha]

I think we need to get one of these stickers for you:

http://www.helmet-st...?productid=2492

Seriously though, I would wear this one:

:jap:

.

SB what does the Thai script say. Same as the above or different?

Roughly the same I think. Be interested to get a Thai to read it to see how it came out. I used Google translate. I moved the "Do Not" to the bottom, as I think that would be the proper syntax.

[ScubaBuddha]

As my final thought on this thread, my initial reservations of the “Big Bike” Police Volunteers were based on my reservations about the various Police Volunteer factions in Pattaya, which vary from the ridiculously dangerous to the simply ridiculous – namely from Colonel Seafood’s Anti-Terrorist SWAT team to the multi-badged blackshirts patrolling Walking Street.

My final thought.. All these "reservations" you have about "ridiculously dangerous" farang volunteers about, have you ever heard of one negative situation where a member of the public was harmed doe to the action of one? Yeah, me neither.

And I agree with you, readers and riders should get some training if they want to know more. As you can see not everyone always agrees on treatment, but the more know the better.

Ride safe everyone!!