Exodus Of Western Expats From Pattaya

[mark45y]

Good post Mobi and he writes:

"whereas for years now, Thailand have been becoming increasingly anti-foreigner."

Yes and the reason for that is that the ruling class in Thailand(ie Chinese/Thais) are terrified that their control over the country might be interfered with by the white man, hence it is necessary to make sure that the population is anti foreigner plus for the most part laws are designed and interpreted to work in favour of the Thais to the detriment of the westerners.

So the recent change in law that a foriegn MAN can get Citezenship after a mere 3 years is anti foriegn???............yes double pricing etc etc will always exist but Thailand most people are leaving due to exchange rates...thats evident in the amount of tourists/expats from countries with strong currencies that are here and keep coming............Pattaya is crammed full with Russians, Arabs, Indians

I thought I read on Thai Visa that only one Western man was granted Thai citizenship in two years. Am I wrong? It is easy now?

[ESB7]

Good post Mobi and he writes:

"whereas for years now, Thailand have been becoming increasingly anti-foreigner."

Yes and the reason for that is that the ruling class in Thailand(ie Chinese/Thais) are terrified that their control over the country might be interfered with by the white man, hence it is necessary to make sure that the population is anti foreigner plus for the most part laws are designed and interpreted to work in favour of the Thais to the detriment of the westerners.

So the recent change in law that a foriegn MAN can get Citezenship after a mere 3 years is anti foriegn???............yes double pricing etc etc will always exist but Thailand most people are leaving due to exchange rates...thats evident in the amount of tourists/expats from countries with strong currencies that are here and keep coming............Pattaya is crammed full with Russians, Arabs, Indians

I thought I read on Thai Visa that only one Western man was granted Thai citizenship in two years. Am I wrong? It is easy now?

Yes you are its 100 per nationality...easy enough if you are working, do your extensions for 3 years and are married.....but dont expect it on a tourist/ED visa........compared to getting my missus a UK passport its a doddle

[moo9]

Thailand was never really foreignerfriendly same as any other SE countries. You are tolerated as long as you bring benefit. Ever worked for a Thai company with a decent farang salary and noticed the greedy talks and looks? I do not blame the Thai but with a little more intelligence, openess and tolerance they could be the retirement paradise, creating many jobs etc.

Sometimes they even do not care the competiveness of countries like Vietnam. Thais generally are narrow minded, not caring of global trends and to their misfortune, whether it's red or yellow, the politics support these attitudes.

But I would not panic....still a much better place to live here if you can adapt and accept.

I think the populations of most countries are narrow minded and not caring of global trends especially people in small towns in US/UK.

And regarding the thai's attitude to foreigners- take a look at Bangkok,Phuket and look at the large numbers of scummy, mean, obnoxious foriegners who are there- would any country want to encourage these people to stick around?- i dont think so.

As for scumbags, the best of both worlds usually meets at touristic beaches around the world, not only Thailand. We all suffer from poorly educated thai's and half criminal farangs. It's just like that...let's face the reality. In general however I would say that European countries are more open minded to foreign people compared with almost all asian countries.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Can anyone tell me if retiree's are counted as tourists as it relates to GDP?

A bigger issue is how revenues from the cash underground economy are clearly not counted in revenues from tourism. Remember, prostitution doesn't exist in Thailand. Also keep in money that foreigners money is like found money, and it isn't a zero sum game either. A million baht of such new money has a lot more impact, including job creation than just ONE million baht.

You are so correct. But almost no one understands it. If a Thai comes from Chiang Mai to Pattaya and spends 100 baht how much money goes into the Thai economy? If a Brit comes to Pattaya and spends 100 baht how much money goes into the Thai economy?

Thank you Jingthing and Mark45y for pointing out what I alluded to: the official govt. figure that estimates how important tourism is to the economy is grossly misleading because it does not include the "entire pie." My guess is that tourism is at least 12% of GDP...not 6-8%.

About retirees counted as tourists......no, they are not.

Really, the important point is the impact of govt. policy on foreigners who want to visit, stay or invest here. I think Thailand has lost trillions of baht over the past decade due to its backward immigration and business investment policies. And we know who the winners are: Malaysia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Singapore, China, etc.

One can only guess at how much investment dollars and tourism dollars Thailand has lost to other countries in the region over the past decade. I think it is a very significant number.

On a personal note, I do know of many farangs who have left Pattaya over the past decade. Virtually all of them were from either the USA or Germany or UK. And, surprise, some were making good money and could have stayed. The chose not to stay.

Some moved to the countryside and built nice homes (for the Thai wife). Some took their business abroad (in my own small world I know of one expat who moved his business to the Philippines and another who moved his business to Cambodia).

I do not know any expat who moved for financial reasons (i.e. could not stay in Pattaya because he could not afford to do so). But I am certain that has happened to many expats due to the exchange rate and inflation and crazy Thai economics (raise prices across the board when the economy goes bad), and changes in immigration policy.

Again, I do not see "security" here. But I do not see it anywhere at the moment. And it is hard to find another country with the "sanook" factor that Thailand still, thankfully, has.

[carmine]

Expats are leaving vthe whole of the country in droves, not just Pattaya. Loads have left samui in the last three months and it seems like it's set to continue.

If they are the ones that do nothing but whine about how terrible Thailand is, that is a good thing.

I don't think the whiners are the ones leaving. Typically whiners prefer to stay and whine.

It's like Englishmen who live in Australia and NZ who constantly complain but never leave.

After watching the last ashes series is plain for all to see the Aussies are the world champions of whinging. And oooh God do they go on..........

[trisailer]

Well, I just returned to Pattaya after a few years traveling in the US with an eye towards finding a place better than Pattaya to "retire" Against the advice of many I purchased a home several years ago east of Sukumvit which I rented out while away. In spite of the negitive opinions about home ownership here my return has been about 6.5%/year on this investment not counting the roughly 10% equity growth.

My TW and I returned for her to continue her education in BKK, but I have to say that I am enjoying being back in Pattaya. This place is never boring and the infastructure improvements are great. Yes it can be a little slow going into town but if I choose the right time of day it is not bad. I love the new choices for food and entertainment outside of the sexpat scene. When I lived here before I had pretty much grown bored with the scene anyway and rarely made it to walking street more than once or twice a year. I will say that when I arrived in Pattaya I enjoyed the heck out of the night life and for a few years had a ball with it.

For me, my happyness is pretty independent of where i'm living. My routine can be accomplished anywhere and happyness is a state of mind. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones so far as I have never had a problem here. All of the people that I know who have moved away from Pattaya would have left anyway. I thnk they are just unsettled, and searching for something that can never be found in a place. Many were expats in Costa Rica before comming here and are attracted to cheap sex and cheap beer. These guys wear out their welcome everywhere they go in a few years because they are selfish empty cheap charlies, taking advantage of poor uneducated women..

Clearly money talks and that is what is behind the changes in Pattaya. There is so much more money to be made from high end toursim than the likes of the beer bar tourest. Pattaya made a name for itself now that name will be pushed aside for the big bucks from people who like the "idea" of a wild west town but not the reality. Just look at Key West and Las Vegas. People are drawn there for their "reputation for being wild" but they are shadows. The folks that have and are investing billions in development here are the ones calling the shots and they know exactly what their doing.

Pattaya is changing, but I think it is for the better. One of the things that come with rapid change is a bit of chaos. I think that the good outweighs the bad. I like all the new places to eat, the new motorway, the bypass and better internet. I also like the Russians and the fact that they bring their attractive immodest women with them. It has only improved the scenery. The weather is still warm and it is still cheaper to live here by a little bit.

[tropo]

Expats are leaving vthe whole of the country in droves, not just Pattaya. Loads have left samui in the last three months and it seems like it's set to continue.

If they are the ones that do nothing but whine about how terrible Thailand is, that is a good thing.

I don't think the whiners are the ones leaving. Typically whiners prefer to stay and whine.

It's like Englishmen who live in Australia and NZ who constantly complain but never leave.

After watching the last ashes series is plain for all to see the Aussies are the world champions of whinging. And oooh God do they go on..........

It's nothing compared to what we'll hear when you guys lose it again soon. I suppose you didn't hear anyone in England whinging about your pitiful World Cup performance?

[carmine]

have i touched a raw nerve tropo? Calm down and stop whinging sweetie. There's no point in arrogantly barking on about winning the series 5-0 (ala Pointing last timeand McGarth in the past) if you are simply no good, now is it? BTW, where did Ponting get that naff nick name "Punter" from?

Actually we did'nt whine after the world cup because atleast we know we were <deleted>.

[tropo]

have i touched a raw nerve tropo? Calm down and stop whinging sweetie. There's no point in arrogantly barking on about winning the series 5-0 (ala Pointing last timeand McGarth in the past) if you are simply no good, now is it? BTW, where did Ponting get that naff nick name "Punter" from?

Actually we did'nt whine after the world cup because atleast we know we were <deleted>.

I'm not the slightest bit interested in who won the cricket. I never watch the sport or keep up with the scores. I have zero interest in The Ashes and consider cricket to be one of the world's most boring sports.

The point of my post was that whingers don't usually leave the places they're whinging about as that is the nature of whingers (of any nationality).

One could hypothosise that action people would leave a place they are no longer satisfied with, in contrast to whiners who spend too much time watching cricket, who would rather stay and complain.

[Danlo]

I know 8 people who left about a year ago, some went to Phili and some back home, all yes all are back now in Pattaya, its a case of the grass is greener but it does not take long to realise there is only one Pattaya.

[mike111]

Hi sojourner007,

"Are there other places like Ban Chang or even better, in Thailand and abroad, which could become like what Pattaya used to be? There is already a forum thread about alternatives to Pattaya."

Care to provide the link to the forum thread on alternatives to Pats?.

Cheers.

[Madame]

Hmm, even for me (visiting Pattaya twice a year in the past ten years) the changes are big.

If I recall correct 5-7 years ago I saw big, tatooed Russian men - heavy, big, gold crucifixs hanging in their necks -,with two or three Russian prostitutes (or the women just looked like those).

In the last 2 years the Russian families who come to visit Pattaya; the "torpeds" disappeared. I think this trend will go on for a while.

Recently I took a Russian property magazine and if I read it well a Russian owned company sold 93 condos only in November 2010 in Pattaya.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Madame

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Hmm, even for me (visiting Pattaya twice a year in the past ten years) the changes are big.

If I recall correct 5-7 years ago I saw big, tatooed Russian men - heavy, big, gold crucifixs hanging in their necks -,with two or three Russian prostitutes (or the women just looked like those).

In the last 2 years the Russian families who come to visit Pattaya; the "torpeds" disappeared. I think this trend will go on for a while.

Recently I took a Russian property magazine and if I read it well a Russian owned company sold 93 condos only in November 2010 in Pattaya.

I have seen the same thing. I think the "gangsters" probably came here first and now more "sophisticated gangsters" are coming (If you are reading this and are a Russian gangster, please note that I am kidding.) Russians with money seem to be looking for a warm alternative to Siberia, and not just in Thailand. They are also going to Cambodia. Check out this link about a bridge to an island. The island is virtually owned by Russians and has a fancy hotel on it. A bridge is being built from the mainland on Sihanoukville to the "Russian Island." Now that takes money. blog2.sihanoukville-cambodia.com/2010/11/new-developments-in-sihanoukville.html

[thaibeachlovers]

Ah, here we go. It doesnt take long for some clown to start accusing anyone who doesnt share his narrow-minded views of being a pervert, does it? How tedious.

I certainly dont need sleaze, in fact I dont participate in it at all. I just think it's far more entertaining to walk down a street with a bit of raw life in it than it is to watch fat farang families shopping for fake designer t-shirts and eating ice-cream. There are endless places around the world that cater to family tourists and I dont see the need to make more of them. One day soon this is all there will be, and there will be no point travelling at all as everywhere will be the same. That will be a very sad day.

In your earlier post you stated that there was 'no point' in Pattaya changing, so I enlightened you on a number of valid points on the need for change, but of course, none of these points would be of interest to the likes of you.

I didn't accuse you of anything, in fact I was very polite but if the cap fits.....

Thailand and Pattaya are slowly being brought kicking and screaming into the 21st century and they no longer have any desire to flaunt their sleaze before the eyes of the world. And 'flaunt' is the operative word as I doubt that there is a village or town the length and breadth of the country which doesn't boast at least one massage parlour and kareoke bar. But they are all tucked down side streets and are not flaunted for every sex pat to see and rub his hands in glee.

The same will eventually happen in Pattaya - plenty of sex available, but discretely tucked away from the main tourist areas.

It wouldn't surprise me if Walking Street itself isn't eventually pulled down and redeveloped (much as the notorious Boogie Street was in Singapore). For one thing it is my understanding that most of the establishments on the beach side of Walking Street are in breach of the law as they encroach on public shore line. This is probably at least a decade away, but one day, mark my words....

As for being 'narrow minded', well you only have to read my posts or my blog to know that Mobi happens to be 'carouser in chief' when in comes to indulging in the sleaze that Pattaya has to offer.

Unlike you, although I personally bemoan the passing of the good old times, I am realistic enough to realise that those times are slowly going and it is only to the benefit of the country that I have chosen to make my home.

If you really hanker after the Pattaya old, why don't you try Sihanoukville in Cambodia, or some of the coastal resorts in Vietnam, or even Cebu in the Philippines. Thailand's economy is much stronger than any of those countries and it will be rapidly becoming a '1st world' Asia country over the next decade, providing it can solve it's political problems.

Regarding Singapore, have you forgotten that in it's effort to "stamp out" all the "sleaze" they made it such a sterile place that tourists stopped going there. In fact, they had to try to reintroduce a bit of "fun" into the nightlife to bring tourists back. Don't know if it's been successful, as the last time I went there, it was as exciting as a slow night in the Surat railway station waiting for the train that never arrives.

As for the places on the beach side of WS, they've been trying to knock them down for as long as I can remember, and I reckon they'll still be there long after I'm departed to the other side.

As for the "need to change", why is it an imperative that every place must change to some awful clone of every other boring, bland, unhappy place in the developed world. I don't know why those that want to change Pattaya need to move there, but I wish they'd go off to some other place and leave Pattaya as it is.

[Mobi]

As for the "need to change", why is it an imperative that every place must change to some awful clone of every other boring, bland, unhappy place in the developed world. I don't know why those that want to change Pattaya need to move there, but I wish they'd go off to some other place and leave Pattaya as it is.

Well we could argue all night about the so-called ‘need’ to change, but the plain fact is that most Thais are sick and tired of Pattaya being one of the most notorious sleaze and paedophile friendly cities on this planet. They no longer care about the money spent by the Pattaya sex-pats and they want to change their city, move it slowly upmarket and in their view, reap greater rewards.

Barely two days ago, the Thai prime minister reaffirmed the country’s desire to go upmarket with their tourism industry, and we all know to which place in particular he was referring.

So sorry if you, and indeed me, rue it’s passing, but let there be no doubt, Pattaya will surely change and the likes of us ‘farang guests’ here will have to accept it or move on to pastures new.

I know what I will do – how about you?

[DMC1]

As for the "need to change", why is it an imperative that every place must change to some awful clone of every other boring, bland, unhappy place in the developed world. I don't know why those that want to change Pattaya need to move there, but I wish they'd go off to some other place and leave Pattaya as it is.

Well we could argue all night about the so-called 'need' to change, but the plain fact is that most Thais are sick and tired of Pattaya being one of the most notorious sleaze and paedophile friendly cities on this planet. They no longer care about the money spent by the Pattaya sex-pats and they want to change their city, move it slowly upmarket and in their view, reap greater rewards.

Barely two days ago, the Thai prime minister reaffirmed the country's desire to go upmarket with their tourism industry, and we all know to which place in particular he was referring.

So sorry if you, and indeed me, rue it's passing, but let there be no doubt, Pattaya will surely change and the likes of us 'farang guests' here will have to accept it or move on to pastures new.

I know what I will do – how about you?

Most Thais as in who ? I can tell you that probably all the Thais that work with me love Pattaya, especially when they have the team building get togethers here and can all go out for a drink together in various night clubs & karaokes etc..None of them give a stuff about the sleaze as it has been like that for most of their lifetimes.

[Mobi]

[

Most Thais as in who ? I can tell you that probably all the Thais that work with me love Pattaya, especially when they have the team building get togethers here and can all go out for a drink together in various night clubs & karaokes etc..None of them give a stuff about the sleaze as it has been like that for most of their lifetimes.

Most Thais as in who? The Thais who don't live in Pattaya, especially the ruling elite who control the budgets and decide these things. I think you may also find the Mayor, the city council and many of the Thais living in nearby areas such as Pong, Nong Prue, Bang Amphur and so, to say nothing of Sri Racha, Chonburi town and basically the rest of Chonburi citizens whom don't directly make their living from the flesh pots of Pattaya would love to see major changes in the city.

of course it is all BS and hypocrisy - there's at least one massage parlour and knocking shop in every village in Thailand and there is more prostitution in the provinces with 100% Thai customers than there is in Pattaya. But it isn't in your face, so the Thais don't lose face - like they do with their notorious city.

As so many people have said through the years - Pattaya is not Thailand - and I have to say that they are correct. It is not Thailand and a vast majority of Thais don't like it.

You don't go into a successful whore house where all the hookers are weighed down with gold necklaces and ask them if they like the place.....

I suggest you get out and about a bit and do your own research on how much the Thais really love Pattaya city.

[Ulysses G.]

Well we could argue all night about the so-called 'need' to change, but the plain fact is that most Thais are sick and tired of Pattaya being one of the most notorious sleaze..

You could say the same thing about the whole country, but sex for sale has been prominent for centuries. It is a big part of the culture and the main reason that the tourist industry is so huge and it is very unlikely to go away.

Edited March 7, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[tropo]

I suggest you get out and about a bit and do your own research on how much the Thais really love Pattaya city.

Great idea! Let's conduct a survey throughout the rest of Thailand.

Do you really think that much of the rest of Thailand even has a clue what life is really like in Pattaya? Even the males who say they don't like Pattaya will probably be lying.

Sure, other Thailanders may know something about the infamous Walking Street, but Pattaya is a lot more than Walking Street and some beachside beer bars. The only information that most other Thailanders will have about Pattaya is the negative media spin.

Edited March 7, 2011 by tropo

[Mobi]

Do you really think that much of the rest of Thailand even has a clue what life is really like in Pattaya? Even the males who say they don't like Pattaya will probably be lying.

Sure, other Thailanders may know something about the infamous Walking Street, but Pattaya is a lot more than Walking Street and some beachside beer bars. The only information that most other Thailanders will have about Pattaya is the negative media spin.

Do you really think that much of the rest of Thailand even has a clue what life is really like in Pattaya? Probably not, but that simply isn't the point.

You and the others simply don't get it or just refuse to get it.

Why do you keep banging on about 'there's more to Thailand than Walking Street' and that prostitution has been endemic throughout Thailand for hundreds of years and all that stuff? We know all that, I've posted as much myself a thousand times - even in this thread.

You're preaching to the converted my friend - you don't have to justify Pattaya to me - I love it, that's why i live here.

But the Thais hate it and they WILL change it - slowly but surely over the next 5-10 years. It's already happening, you can see it everywhere. I bet you one day they even shut down walking Street as we now know it - just like Singapore shut down Boogie street all those years ago when the hypocrites who ran the country decided it was bad for their image.

Thais hate Pattaya because it has a world wide reputation as the biggest sex city in the world and that it is too much in your face.

A Thai village can have 6 karaoke bars, and 2 massage parlours and I bet you can never find them if you can't read Thai and don't know where to look. That's the Thai way - pretend it doesn't exist and keep it quiet in the back Sois - not in your face, screaming at you from the rooftops everywhere you go.

It's all about Thai face and hypocrisy and however much you all bleat and try to justify the status quo, you are, as they, say just 'pissing in the wind'....

[guzzi850m2]

Pattaya is changing, but I think it is for the better. One of the things that come with rapid change is a bit of chaos. I think that the good outweighs the bad. I like all the new places to eat, the new motorway, the bypass and better internet. I also like the Russians and the fact that they bring their attractive immodest women with them. It has only improved the scenery. The weather is still warm and it is still cheaper to live here by a little bit.

I find your post very good trisailer and I agree with you.

[cardholder]

I suggest you get out and about a bit and do your own research on how much the Thais really love Pattaya city.

Great idea! Let's conduct a survey throughout the rest of Thailand.

Do you really think that much of the rest of Thailand even has a clue what life is really like in Pattaya? Even the males who say they don't like Pattaya will probably be lying.

Sure, other Thailanders may know something about the infamous Walking Street, but Pattaya is a lot more than Walking Street and some beachside beer bars. The only information that most other Thailanders will have about Pattaya is the negative media spin.

I am sure that the collective mothers of Isaan understand that that not all their daughters send money home from working as cleaners in Pattaya hotels !

Edited March 7, 2011 by cardholder

[tropo]

Do you really think that much of the rest of Thailand even has a clue what life is really like in Pattaya? Probably not, but that simply isn't the point.

You and the others simply don't get it or just refuse to get it.

Why do you keep banging on about 'there's more to Thailand than Walking Street' and that prostitution has been endemic throughout Thailand for hundreds of years and all that stuff? We know all that, I've posted as much myself a thousand times - even in this thread.

Apart from misquoting me and stating that I'm banging on something I've never banged on about....

I don't believe your theory that Thais hate Pattaya. Sorry.

They're going to get rid of Walking Street? Are you serious? They can't even get rid of in-your-face jetski scams.

Change will occur naturally as low profitability will force places to close. This is already starting to happen.

[Tolley]

Do you really think that much of the rest of Thailand even has a clue what life is really like in Pattaya? Even the males who say they don't like Pattaya will probably be lying.

Sure, other Thailanders may know something about the infamous Walking Street, but Pattaya is a lot more than Walking Street and some beachside beer bars. The only information that most other Thailanders will have about Pattaya is the negative media spin.

Do you really think that much of the rest of Thailand even has a clue what life is really like in Pattaya? Probably not, but that simply isn't the point.

You and the others simply don't get it or just refuse to get it.

Why do you keep banging on about 'there's more to Thailand than Walking Street' and that prostitution has been endemic throughout Thailand for hundreds of years and all that stuff? We know all that, I've posted as much myself a thousand times - even in this thread.

You're preaching to the converted my friend - you don't have to justify Pattaya to me - I love it, that's why i live here.

But the Thais hate it and they WILL change it - slowly but surely over the next 5-10 years. It's already happening, you can see it everywhere. I bet you one day they even shut down walking Street as we now know it - just like Singapore shut down Boogie street all those years ago when the hypocrites who ran the country decided it was bad for their image.

Thais hate Pattaya because it has a world wide reputation as the biggest sex city in the world and that it is too much in your face.

A Thai village can have 6 karaoke bars, and 2 massage parlours and I bet you can never find them if you can't read Thai and don't know where to look. That's the Thai way - pretend it doesn't exist and keep it quiet in the back Sois - not in your face, screaming at you from the rooftops everywhere you go.

It's all about Thai face and hypocrisy and however much you all bleat and try to justify the status quo, you are, as they, say just 'pissing in the wind'....

I doubt very much that Walking St is going anywhere soon.

The amount of money that is generated by the clubs and bars etc will ensure its survival.

It is always possible that stricter standards are imposed a la Bangkok style...in the gogo bars but Walking St being closed down....I doubt it.

[Mobi]

I doubt very much that Walking St is going anywhere soon.

The amount of money that is generated by the clubs and bars etc will ensure its survival.

It is always possible that stricter standards are imposed a la Bangkok style...in the gogo bars but Walking St being closed down....I doubt it.

I agree with you... 'not going anywhere soon'..

But in 10 years time? Almost certainly.

Yes it generates 'loadsa money' - but who gets that money? The local Mafia, the local cops and a few 'lucky' farang bar owners until they get muscled out or killed.

It is also my understanding that many of the establishments on the beach side of walking Street have been built there illegally, encroaching on public beach-side.

As Thailand's determination to move Pattaya upmarket starts to take hold, the powers that be will take over the whole Walking Street area, open up the beaches and probably allow much richer and more powerful interests than the local Pattay Mafia to build beach resorts and restaurants there. That's my prediction - let's see who is right?

[Awohalitsiktoli]

I doubt very much that Walking St is going anywhere soon.

The amount of money that is generated by the clubs and bars etc will ensure its survival.

It is always possible that stricter standards are imposed a la Bangkok style...in the gogo bars but Walking St being closed down....I doubt it.

I agree with you... 'not going anywhere soon'..

But in 10 years time? Almost certainly.

Yes it generates 'loadsa money' - but who gets that money? The local Mafia, the local cops and a few 'lucky' farang bar owners until they get muscled out or killed.

It is also my understanding that many of the establishments on the beach side of walking Street have been built there illegally, encroaching on public beach-side.

As Thailand's determination to move Pattaya upmarket starts to take hold, the powers that be will take over the whole Walking Street area, open up the beaches and probably allow much richer and more powerful interests than the local Pattay Mafia to build beach resorts and restaurants there. That's my prediction - let's see who is right?

Who gets the money? That money spreads across Thailand! The Mafia is only one beneficiary. "Legal" is a relative term in Thailand They have been talking about knocking down those businesses on the waterfront side of Walking Street for a very long time (personally, I really like some of the restaurants there). I disagree with one poster who said something like Thais dislike Pattaya. Some do dislike it. They are in the minority (very small minority), and they are either modern-day Puritans or have some interest in the real-estate market. If they get their way, the city will become boring and anything but "sanook." People can deny it all they want, but there is only one thing that makes Pattaya special and it is not the polluted beaches and creepy condo units with views of the sea. Remove the sector that draws people to the city and Pattaya will really take a dive. Tourists will go elsewhere. Retirees will seek out better (less Puritanical and more relaxed) locations. The changes that are taking place have little to do with what the majority wants and everything to do with what a few rich people want. Tourists and retirees, in general, like places that are not polluted and overcrowded. Retirees, in particular, like places that are not too expensive. There has already been way too much development. Development can, under certain circumstances, ruin a place.

[Mobi]

I doubt very much that Walking St is going anywhere soon.

The amount of money that is generated by the clubs and bars etc will ensure its survival.

It is always possible that stricter standards are imposed a la Bangkok style...in the gogo bars but Walking St being closed down....I doubt it.

I agree with you... 'not going anywhere soon'..

But in 10 years time? Almost certainly.

Yes it generates 'loadsa money' - but who gets that money? The local Mafia, the local cops and a few 'lucky' farang bar owners until they get muscled out or killed.

It is also my understanding that many of the establishments on the beach side of walking Street have been built there illegally, encroaching on public beach-side.

As Thailand's determination to move Pattaya upmarket starts to take hold, the powers that be will take over the whole Walking Street area, open up the beaches and probably allow much richer and more powerful interests than the local Pattay Mafia to build beach resorts and restaurants there. That's my prediction - let's see who is right?

Who gets the money? That money spreads across Thailand! The Mafia is only one beneficiary. "Legal" is a relative term in Thailand They have been talking about knocking down those businesses on the waterfront side of Walking Street for a very long time (personally, I really like some of the restaurants there). I disagree with one poster who said something like Thais dislike Pattaya. Some do dislike it. They are in the minority (very small minority), and they are either modern-day Puritans or have some interest in the real-estate market. If they get their way, the city will become boring and anything but "sanook." People can deny it all they want, but there is only one thing that makes Pattaya special and it is not the polluted beaches and creepy condo units with views of the sea. Remove the sector that draws people to the city and Pattaya will really take a dive. Tourists will go elsewhere. Retirees will seek out better (less Puritanical and more relaxed) locations. The changes that are taking place have little to do with what the majority wants and everything to do with what a few rich people want. Tourists and retirees, in general, like places that are not polluted and overcrowded. Retirees, in particular, like places that are not too expensive. There has already been way too much development. Development can, under certain circumstances, ruin a place.

I agree with much of what you say, but I completely fail to comprehend why you all have your 'heads in the sand' with regards to whether or not the Thais like Pattaya . Of course the ones who live here and derive their livelihoods from here like it - but the rest of Thailand - forget it! You all seem to be convinced that because you like Pattaya and because the Thais you meet here like Pattaya, then the ordinary Thais in other parts of Thailand also like it. It really is a kind of 'myopic arrogance'.

Even if most Thais do like Pattaya, which I very seriously doubt, I'm afraid it's the "modern-day Puritans or those who have some interest in the real-estate market" who will be calling the shots, as they are the ones in power, regardless of which political party they belong to. You seem to forget that the 'modern day puritans' have also steadfastly resisted all attempts to get casinos legalised here, despite populist Thaksin's very best efforts , and their anti alcohol campaign is so influential that Beer Chang had to do their IPO in Singapore because there were too many pressures against them floating shares in the Thai stock market.

You really don't seem to have any conception of the forces at play here. Even your beloved Mayor has stated on many occasions that Pattaya needs to go up market and I am sure he wouldn't stand in the way of Walking Street getting bulldozed one night (as a similar complex was in Bangkok some years back),as he would see more 'financial' opportunities in redeveloping walking Street area than maintaining the status quo.

As for Pattaya becoming boring, I agree with you, but don't kid yourself that the punters will stop coming. The punters will never stop coming - not even a bloody 'civil war' in the heart of Bangkok stopped them. I bet that in 10 years time, Pattaya will have transformed itself into a mid-to-up market tourist location, the surviving sex establishments will have been shunted off into 'back Sois' and the number of tourists coming here will have doubled from its present levels.

[LennyW]

The punters will never stop coming - not even a bloody 'civil war' in the heart of Bangkok stopped them. I bet that in 10 years time, Pattaya will have transformed itself into a mid-to-up market tourist location, the surviving sex establishments will have been shunted off into 'back Sois' and the number of tourists coming here will have doubled from its present levels.

Thats about how i see it too.

[sojourner007]

Hi sojourner007,

"Are there other places like Ban Chang or even better, in Thailand and abroad, which could become like what Pattaya used to be? There is already a forum thread about alternatives to Pattaya."

Care to provide the link to the forum thread on alternatives to Pats?.

Cheers.

The Pattaya alternatives thread is here:

There are probably other threads on the same topic. This website is a bit of a mess and many topics are reopened as new threads under different names.

I am the one who started this forum. My apologies for a spelling mistake in the opening post: the statistical data indicating dropping numbers of British and US visitors to Pattaya are provided by TAT (Tourism Authority of Thailand) on their website and by 'TOT' as in my post. As for a question in one posts on this forum about what I mean by Russians 'imposing' their culture on the place I suggest to visit the following threads:

I can see that the forum discussions have strayed now far away from the original subject, which was about places where we could find something like the old Pattaya of 10-20 years ago and without Russians. Some suggested beach resorts in Vietnam and Cambodia. I've had quite a few encounters with bar girls in Vietnam and Cambodia and I can tell you they are very different from Thai chicks. Vietnamese girls are very aggressive whereas Cambodian ones are rather dour. And Cambodian beach resorts are now full of Russians. Thai hostesses have this amazing 'sanuk' attitude to their job. Even though they don't like it they appear as if having fun doing it. And thanks to a long unbroken tradition of serving Western customers they have much more rapport with them. The socialist regime in Cambodia and Vietnam eliminated many good traditions and service manners in their population, so it is difficult to find such easy relationships with locals that one can have in Thailand. I personally can only think of two other countries where I've met girls similar, in attitude, to Thai bar chicks: Philippines and Cuba. Unfortunately good times did not last on those islands and both now have a completely different atmosphere. So I think we should concentrate on Thailand in search for better alternatives to Pattaya.

And lastly about whether Thais like the sleaze side of Pattaya. I think some surely hate it but those coming to work here from the steppes of Isaan love it, in a professional way. Many families there have two successive generations working the Pattaya bars and they consider it the best way to achieve prosperity quickly and without much hard work. They usually laugh at the idea of getting education and a normal job.

[Samuian]

The trick is to understand that nothing is constant, everything will change over time and that is waht time is... nobody in the unverse will ever be able to stop this.

So Bangkok has changed, so has Patpong, Soi Cowboy, Nana, Puket, Samui, Phangan, my home town, Paris,Amsterdam and London inculding NY... we will have to adjust, quit, run away, 'head in the sand" tactics whatevermay suit each and everyone!

I enjoy every single Minute, try at least, after all, it's MY LIFE!