Just to make Greg's analysis a bit grimmer, what will happen when some countries start launching nuclear weapons? I think there is no doubt that this will happen... and the first targets will be the US and the more develped European economies. Oh, and Israel... if that country doesn't launch them first in self-defence. This is going to turn the world into a huge melting-pot (we hope not a meltdown) in which current systems of government, and even current political units, will be swept away. Didn't someone call it Armageddon?

This comment is not flippant, it is not scare-tactics, but, I greatly fear, realistic. I just hope I'm no longer here.

Just to make Greg's analysis a bit grimmer, what will happen when some countries start launching nuclear weapons? I think there is no doubt that this will happen... and the first targets will be the US and the more develped European economies. Oh, and Israel... if that country doesn't launch them first in self-defence. This is going to turn the world into a huge melting-pot (we hope not a meltdown) in which current systems of government, and even current political units, will be swept away. Didn't someone call it Armageddon?

This comment is not flippant, it is not scare-tactics, but, I greatly fear, realistic. I just hope I'm no longer here.

According to Israel, they don't have nukes....and of course, Iran, Pakistan, China launching first is an aggressor, but Israel or America launching first are just defending themselves...you're starting to sound like some of the more narrow-minded right-wingers I've read online.

If we look at the world over the last decade or more.....

There are not many aggressive super power or minor powers with capabilities.

If it continues I would have to guess it will be them or one of their

side kicks that strike first. What excuse will be used is yet to be seen.

My guess is they will claim it is a pre-emptive strike as the bad guys were planning something

If we look at the world over the last decade or more.....

There are not many aggressive super power or minor powers with capabilities.

If it continues I would have to guess it will be them or one of their

side kicks that strike first. What excuse will be used is yet to be seen.

My guess is they will claim it is a pre-emptive strike as the bad guys were planning something

Of course it will be "the good guys" that launch a "pre-emptive" strike. The baddies are always planning something or they have WOMD (the "evidence" suggests) and that they can't be trusted not to use them. (Sounds familiar )

Of course!

And of course, if the baddies launch a strike first, it would never be in self defence or pre-emptive.....they're just aggressors and that's why they're baddies.

Sting said it well......at the time it was the Russians......but I bet Ahmedinejad loves his children as much as any poster on this forum.

Written by Sting [& Sergei Prokofiev!]

In Europe and America there's a growing feeling of hysteria

Conditioned to respond to all the threats

In the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets

Mister Krushchev said, 'We will bury you'

I don't subscribe to this point of view

It'd be such an ignorant thing to do

If the Russians love their children too

How can I save my little boy

From Oppenheimer's deadly toy?

There is no monopoly on common sense

On either side of the political fence

We share the same biology

Regardless of ideology

Believe me when I say to you

I hope the Russians love their children too

There is no historical precedent to put

Words in the mouth of the president

There's no such thing as a winnable war

It's a lie we don't believe anymore

Mister Reagan says 'We will protect you'

I don't subscribe to this point of view

Believe me when I say to you

I hope the Russians love their children too

We share the same biology

Regardless of ideology

What might save us, me and you

Is if the Russians love their children too

And of course, if the baddies launch a strike first, it would never be in self defence or pre-emptive.....they're just aggressors and that's why they're baddies.

you know along those thought lines........

Isn't it telling than none have ever approached the North Koreans.

Even with all their supposed planning & open threats.

It is not hard to see why Iran would also want nuclear capabilities.

It seems in this day & age it is the talking stick.

If you want to be left alone you need the talking stick.

Otherwise your just a target ....even if it is just based on others claims that you are *planning* something diabolical <sic>

How could anyone suspect Iran of planning something? Could it be something that they said?

How could anyone suspect Iran of planning something? Could it be something that they said?

Thanks for driving home the point...

Make a list of what Kim Jong has said & notice none approach him.

Best everyone has a talking stick ASAP

Then perhaps folks like Israel, Pakistan,India & North Korea will finally take part in the Nonproliferation Treaty

Strange bedfellows?

The difference with some countries isn't that they aren't touched; it's that when touched it's going to be a big event.

For a few the ante is quite high.

And of course, if the baddies launch a strike first, it would never be in self defence or pre-emptive.....they're just aggressors and that's why they're baddies.

you know along those thought lines........

Isn't it telling than none have ever approached the North Koreans.

Even with all their supposed planning & open threats.

It is not hard to see why Iran would also want nuclear capabilities.

It seems in this day & age it is the talking stick.

If you want to be left alone you need the talking stick.

Otherwise your just a target ....even if it is just based on others claims that you are *planning* something diabolical <sic>

I think the reason North Korea gets a relative pass is because of it's proximity to and relationship with, China. China thrives from having chaotic neighbors. Just as western countries tend to thrive from order.

I think the reason North Korea gets a relative pass is because of it's proximity to and relationship with, China. China thrives from having chaotic neighbors. Just as western countries tend to thrive from order.

That is plausible

When one considers others in this world that also seem to get away with murder

depending on who they have *relations* with.

The North Korean loons already have a number of Nuclear weapons. Iran can still be stopped.

I think the reason North Korea gets a relative pass is because of it's proximity to and relationship with, China. China thrives from having chaotic neighbors. Just as western countries tend to thrive from order.

That is plausible

It's isn't just palusible, it is a fact. Who do you think fought with the North during the Korean War? Over 180,000 Chinese soldiers died and the Soviets didn't send troops but they did sent equipment.

The North Korean loons already have a number of Nuclear weapons. Iran can still be stopped.

Again that makes the point of why they all need the talking stick.

Once they have one none of the bullies/self proclaimed sheriffs bother them.

I have a good hunch who the loons that will attempt the stopping of Iran will be.

These same loons are nuclear themselves yet refuse to take part in any treaties & have the gall

to claim who else can & cannot have any nuclear capabilities.

Funny though how they will probably cause what they claim to want to stop.

How could anyone suspect Iran of planning something? Could it be something that they said?

Something they said. It's a PRETEXT.

Gaddafi says something threatening to the civilians, and Nato jumps in. Assad says nothing but daily slaughters the civilians, and nothing is done.

The difference is not who said what. The difference is that Syria is close on being a net importer of oil, whereas Libya is a big producer.....and Gadaffi spoke some words that gave a convenient excuse for Western powers to get involved.

Same situation with Iran and North Korea, and same differnce....oil or no oil.

Oil is no doubt an important factor, as are shipping lanes, but I think people are forgetting about the issue of the effect on other countries, particularly neighbors.

If many thousands of people began fleeing a country, then the neighbors get nervous and action is likely. There wasn't much talk about action in Syria until there were refugees in Turkey. Libya was exporting people refugees to the shores of Europe, which put the struggle in the limelight.

Iranians aren't fleeing in droves and neither are North Koreans. Iranian dissident groups are located pretty close to Iran, some groups in Iraq, for example. North Koreans head through China and if they make it to places like Thailand, they can easily be resettled in South Korea.

Whether a country is democratic or not, if it is dependent on selling oil, then the oil is sold on the international market. Once it's shipped in a tanker, the country doesn't have much say over where it will ultimately be sold.

Funny though how they will probably cause what they claim to want to stop.

By not allowing themselves to be annihilated by enemies who started the war and who have refused to make peace for MORE THAN HALF A CENTURY.

Funny though how they will probably cause what they claim to want to stop.

By not allowing themselves to be annihilated by enemies who started the war and who have refused to make peace for MORE THAN HALF A CENTURY.

Half a century? Pish! The problem with you Yanks is that you have no historical perspective. 50 years? &lt;deleted&gt;!!!

Funny though how they will probably cause what they claim to want to stop.

By not allowing themselves to be annihilated by enemies who started the war and who have refused to make peace for MORE THAN HALF A CENTURY.

So if Israel will attack Iran over demands that Israel have no place making....at that point who wants who annihilated?

But there it goes again eh? One group wants to be allowed to pull such shenanigans ..

Be allowed to go unchecked as to their own nuclear capabilities..

yet DEMAND no other to have any of their own security.

After all I am sure that is what those that have capabilities call it eh? Security....Self Defense Systems etc.

Why is it they feel they have the right to such yet deny others the same unchecked rights?

Yes of course it is obvious they see themselves as the threatened ones...

But how pompous is it to not realize the others feel the same way.

It is all such a mess isn't it?

mutually assured destruction....

Do you really think that Iran would feel threatened by Israel if they had not threatened Israel first?

Do you really think that Iran would feel threatened by Israel if they had not threatened Israel first?

I never said Iran feels threatened at all.

Why is it they feel they have the right to such yet deny others the same unchecked rights?

Yes of course it is obvious they see themselves as the threatened ones...

I said Israel uses the excuse that it is all right for the goose but not the gander to

hold nukes because *They/ Israel* feel threatened

My main gripe is that it is not Israels place to threaten Iran with bombings if they

develop their own arsenal. I would feel the same if any country made the same threat towards Israel.

Sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander, apparently....if we are to take America's and Isreal's stance.

"An eye for an eye" also depends on who took the first eye. .

If an Arab eye was taken first....woe betide him if he even mentions a thought of taking an eye in return.....he is automatically a terrorist.

If the Arab takes the eye.....in return he will be blinded in both of his as well as being castrated, his lands confiscated, then his brother will be made to pay compensation for the original eye that was lost.

There are both religious AND corporate greed (oil) motives, backed up by sheer bully power.

There are both religious AND corporate greed (oil) motives, backed up by sheer bully power.

Basically it is hard for one sided views to understand that they could in anyway be seen as terrorist by those they

deem terrorist.

I would wager that many tribes in lands now being invaded feel they are being attacked by terrorist

The whole thing is quite insane

It is based on what... 9-11? So the story goes...

Ten years later it is still based on hijackings that were perpetrated by 19 men

15 Saudis, one Egyptian, one Lebanese and two from the Union of Arab Emirates

So for the past 10+ years America has spent $,$$$,$$$,$$$,$$$ of dollars & over 6000 American lives

Over a single attack/hijacking by

15 Saudis, one Egyptian, one Lebanese and two from the Union of Arab Emirates

which killed 2977 victims

So through our efforts we have sent twice as many of our own to death over this one incident that occurred 10 years ago

& spent trillions we do not have.

Many times it has been said OBL's ultimate goal was to bankrupt America

It looks like mission soon to be accomplished

Stupidity crosses party lines almost seamlessly

Do you really think that Iran would feel threatened by Israel if they had not threatened Israel first?

I never said Iran feels threatened at all.

I said Israel uses the excuse that it is all right for the goose but not the gander to

hold nukes because *They/ Israel* feel threatened

Isreal HAS been threatened by Iran and the Arab countries and attacked repeatedly.

Their "excuse" has been validated over and over and over again.

Stupidity crosses party lines almost seamlessly

That is very clever shopping. Real talent went into that.

Stupidity crosses party lines almost seamlessly

That is very clever shopping. Real talent went into that.

I didn't think it was shopped. There are many programs that can morph faces from one to another. It looks like that was just an image taken midway through a computer morph.

Disturbingly true though however you look at it.

Democracy - What's next?

The Eu shows the answer to that - unelected bureaucracy.

The EU 'Parliament' does nothing except collect salaries and expenses, whilst the Brussels bureaucrats pass stupid rules and regulations on an hourly basis.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8733134/Britons-stock-up-on-banned-60-watt-bulbs.html

Consumers are bulk buying 60 watt incandescent light bulbs after an EU ban on their manufacture came into force at midnight.

and

EU light bulb ban further increases cost of energy-saving lamps by 20-25%

Manufacturers have signalled that they intend to raise the price on energy-saving lamps in Germany by 20-25%, following todays EU ban on 60-watt light bulbs. The manufacturers say that increases in the costs of raw materials from China are to blame for the rise. Osram CEO Martin Goetzler told FTD the price increases of 20-25% will apply from today. Philips also intends to raise prices of energy-saving lamps by 20-25% in Germany over the coming months, a company spokesperson told Welt.

Maybe the European Community will disintegrate through a proliferation of bureaucrats (perhaps we should call it a bumbledom of bureaucrats?), plus the impending bankruptcy of some of its members... who will not follow the rules even when it's clearly to their advantage to do so (Greece and Italy).

Maybe the European Community will disintegrate through a proliferation of bureaucrats (perhaps we should call it a bumbledom of bureaucrats?), plus the impending bankruptcy of some of its members... who will not follow the rules even when it's clearly to their advantage to do so (Greece and Italy).

If one examines the formation of the Eurozone, both Italy and Greece fudged their figures in order to join. Neither was within the budget deficit limits set prior to joining and most economists were waving red flags at that time.

But the Eurozone is different to the EU, comprising only around half the EU members.

My main gripe is with the EU itself, set up very much like French government, with civil servants running the country while politicians chase whatever spare money is laying around waiting to be picked up. But what puzzles me is how the UK taxpayer gets less value for his contributions than the frogs.

My main gripe is with the EU itself, set up very much like French government, with civil servants running the country while politicians chase whatever spare money is laying around waiting to be picked up. But what puzzles me is how the UK taxpayer gets less value for his contributions than the frogs.

That's because our civil servants gold-plate EU directives whereas the French ignore them.

I find myself feeling increasingly disenchanted with democracy, or more to the point the people that seem to be most supportive of democracy.

I remember as a kid being fed all the stuff about the communists being evil and stuff, the big red threat and all that. Only to find that it's really just another way of doing stuff.