Watching some 9/11 anniversary coverage on CNN (Fareed) and - of course - some people blame US policies for the attacks on that day ten years ago. I wonder if they also blame the policies of Norway's Labor Party policies for the mass murder that happened in Norway back in July? If not, why are they different? Both UBL & ABB blamed government policies for their actions.

Personally, I blame the attackers in both instances. "Oooo, I'm unhappy so I will slaughter large numbers of innocent people" isn't a viable reason IMO.

Is there anyone here who blames US policies in the first case and ABB in the second? Or blame UBL in the first but the Norwegian Labour Party in the second? Or blame gov't policies in both? Maybe blame all parties to varying degrees?

Please remember - for the first page at least - that this thread is about who you assign blame to for the atrocities. Let's wait a bit before getting off-topic.

Maniacs in both cases... Osama bin Laden for 9/11, and the killer for the Norway attacks. You could blame US policies regarding Israel and Palestine for 9/11... but if you stretch it that far back, nobody would ever dare have any policies at all.

I blame the attackers in both cases but those who blame US policies for 9/11 whilst not blaming the Norwegian labour party's policies for the killings there would point out that the Norwegian labour party policies affect Norwegians whereas US policies have effects throughout the rest of the world.

I am not informed about Norway but as for 9-11 Of course the blame rests with those who perpetrate the acts of terror regardless of motivation.

But the question that I & others have is not who is morally responsible for terrorism, only a fool would place the moral responsibility for terrorism on anyone but the terrorist. That issue is moot.

The question we ask is more serious....given that a hyper-interventionist foreign policy is most likely to lead to this kind of blowback, are we sure we want such a foreign policy?

In other words our government foreign policy has put the American people in greater danger & made us more vulnerable to attack than we should/need to be. This is the issue

There is always going to be a dominant nation and it is much better if it is the U.S. rather than Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union or Communist China.

NATO is the reason that so many democracies can live in relative peace instead of being attacked repeatedly by backwards savages and if the U.S. goes isolationist the whole thing will collapse.

This is far from a perfect world. There is a lot of evil out there and it is stupid not to be prepared for it.

There is always going to be a dominant nation and it is much better if it is the U.S. rather than Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union or Communist China.

Why? The US government is just as bad as the others. Maybe not Nazi Germany, but they aren't around any more. China isn't a bad place. In fact, you ought to get used to them, as they are going to be the dominant power in the coming century. The Soviet Union has transformed into Russia, and today is almost indistinguishable from the US, except the US has a larger consumer culture.

I think everyone needs to stop this US exceptionalism arrogance. The US is not special. If anything they are worse because the have the power. Being the school yard bully is not something to be proud of. I'll be much happier with my homeland when they finally collapse, pull home the military, and start concentrating on all the internal problems they have, rather than trying to rule the world...a job they have proven over and over again that they are unqualified for.

There is always going to be a dominant nation and it is much better if it is the U.S. rather than Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union or Communist China.

Why? The US government is just as bad as the others.

Are you serious? Both the Societ Unions and Communist China killed millions of their own citizens. Ther is no comparison.

There is always going to be a dominant nation and it is much better if it is the U.S. rather than Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union or Communist China.

Why? The US government is just as bad as the others. Maybe not Nazi Germany, but they aren't around any more. China isn't a bad place. In fact, you ought to get used to them, as they are going to be the dominant power in the coming century. The Soviet Union has transformed into Russia, and today is almost indistinguishable from the US, except the US has a larger consumer culture.

I think everyone needs to stop this US exceptionalism arrogance. The US is not special. If anything they are worse because the have the power. Being the school yard bully is not something to be proud of. I'll be much happier with my homeland when they finally collapse, pull home the military, and start concentrating on all the internal problems they have, rather than trying to rule the world...a job they have proven over and over again that they are unqualified for.

I wonder how many individuals are standing in line in embassies around the world to apply for resident/work visas to enter China and Russia.

Please remember - for the first page at least - that this thread is about who you assign blame to for the atrocities. Let's wait a bit before getting off-topic.

There is always going to be a dominant nation and it is much better if it is the U.S. rather than Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union or Communist China.

Why? The US government is just as bad as the others. Maybe not Nazi Germany, but they aren't around any more. China isn't a bad place. In fact, you ought to get used to them, as they are going to be the dominant power in the coming century. The Soviet Union has transformed into Russia, and today is almost indistinguishable from the US, except the US has a larger consumer culture.

I think everyone needs to stop this US exceptionalism arrogance. The US is not special. If anything they are worse because the have the power. Being the school yard bully is not something to be proud of. I'll be much happier with my homeland when they finally collapse, pull home the military, and start concentrating on all the internal problems they have, rather than trying to rule the world...a job they have proven over and over again that they are unqualified for.

I wonder how many individuals are standing in line in embassies around the world to apply for resident/work visas to enter China and Russia.

It is quite probable I may be moving to China in the next few years. I am looking forward to it. I would suspect there are many others out there who would also welcome the opportunity. If it happens I think it will be a wonderful chance for my kids to learn Mandarin, which is going to be the next global language.

I would expect the lines are smaller at their embassy though because their processes are more streamlined and their entry requirements not so severe. They aren't the hated empire yet, so they can be more casual about admissions. Rather than using lines as an indicator, I would be interested to see what are the numbers of people requesting visas to visit China vs. visas to the USA. I would bet China is much more popular than you think.

But to get back on topic, people make their own choices regarding how to act to injustices. I don't necessarily blame the US policies for terrorism. Putting 911 aside for the moment, there are quite clearly mid eastern terrorists who gleefully attack and kill Americans who had little if anything to do with their situation. I would never blame to US for this behavior.

On the other hand, Americans are ignorant for allowing the government to continue this global campaign of dominance, so if anyone really wants it to stop, they are going to have to wise up and clean up their own back yard first. You can blame the terrorists for what they have done, but you can't really get angry at them when it is your own government who is provoking them.

Why? The US government is just as bad as the others. Maybe not Nazi Germany, but they aren't around any more. China isn't a bad place. In fact, you ought to get used to them, as they are going to be the dominant power in the coming century. The Soviet Union has transformed into Russia, and today is almost indistinguishable from the US, except the US has a larger consumer culture.

I think everyone needs to stop this US exceptionalism arrogance. The US is not special. If anything they are worse because the have the power. Being the school yard bully is not something to be proud of. I'll be much happier with my homeland when they finally collapse, pull home the military, and start concentrating on all the internal problems they have, rather than trying to rule the world...a job they have proven over and over again that they are unqualified for.

I wonder how many individuals are standing in line in embassies around the world to apply for resident/work visas to enter China and Russia.

It is quite probable I may be moving to China in the next few years. I am looking forward to it. I would suspect there are many others out there who would also welcome the opportunity. If it happens I think it will be a wonderful chance for my kids to learn Mandarin, which is going to be the next global language.

I would expect the lines are smaller at their embassy though because their processes are more streamlined and their entry requirements not so severe. They aren't the hated empire yet, so they can be more casual about admissions. Rather than using lines as an indicator, I would be interested to see what are the numbers of people requesting visas to visit China vs. visas to the USA. I would bet China is much more popular than you think.

But to get back on topic, people make their own choices regarding how to act to injustices. I don't necessarily blame the US policies for terrorism. Putting 911 aside for the moment, there are quite clearly mid eastern terrorists who gleefully attack and kill Americans who had little if anything to do with their situation. I would never blame to US for this behavior.

On the other hand, Americans are ignorant for allowing the government to continue this global campaign of dominance, so if anyone really wants it to stop, they are going to have to wise up and clean up their own back yard first. You can blame the terrorists for what they have done, but you can't really get angry at them when it is your own government who is provoking them.

I don't know how many people are standing in line at the Chinese Embassies. That's why I asked the question.

I do know when I went to China in 1978, it took over one year to get our entry visas approved.

You contradict yourself in your post. In one paragraph you state you don't necessarily blame US policies for terrorism. In the next paragraph you say one can blame the terrorists for what they have done but it is our own government that is provoking them. How then can you say US policies are not responsible for terrorism yet our government is provoking terrorist acts.

Very strange.

You are all too keen to blame Governments for the two atrocities. Both of them were committed by quasi-religious extremists who believed that they were doing something fine for their beliefs. The stronger the belief, the worse it can be twisted to evil. Osama thought he was acting on behalf of Muslims worldwide; nothing could have been farther from the truth. The Norwegian guy thought.... well, I don't know quite what he really thought, he was so far off his head.

If they didn't like their governments, they could always find ways to blame them for anything. So could we, but we don't take it to the same extremes.

Why? The US government is just as bad as the others. Maybe not Nazi Germany, but they aren't around any more. China isn't a bad place. In fact, you ought to get used to them, as they are going to be the dominant power in the coming century. The Soviet Union has transformed into Russia, and today is almost indistinguishable from the US, except the US has a larger consumer culture.

I think everyone needs to stop this US exceptionalism arrogance. The US is not special. If anything they are worse because the have the power. Being the school yard bully is not something to be proud of. I'll be much happier with my homeland when they finally collapse, pull home the military, and start concentrating on all the internal problems they have, rather than trying to rule the world...a job they have proven over and over again that they are unqualified for.

I wonder how many individuals are standing in line in embassies around the world to apply for resident/work visas to enter China and Russia.

It is quite probable I may be moving to China in the next few years. I am looking forward to it. I would suspect there are many others out there who would also welcome the opportunity. If it happens I think it will be a wonderful chance for my kids to learn Mandarin, which is going to be the next global language.

I would expect the lines are smaller at their embassy though because their processes are more streamlined and their entry requirements not so severe. They aren't the hated empire yet, so they can be more casual about admissions. Rather than using lines as an indicator, I would be interested to see what are the numbers of people requesting visas to visit China vs. visas to the USA. I would bet China is much more popular than you think.

But to get back on topic, people make their own choices regarding how to act to injustices. I don't necessarily blame the US policies for terrorism. Putting 911 aside for the moment, there are quite clearly mid eastern terrorists who gleefully attack and kill Americans who had little if anything to do with their situation. I would never blame to US for this behavior.

On the other hand, Americans are ignorant for allowing the government to continue this global campaign of dominance, so if anyone really wants it to stop, they are going to have to wise up and clean up their own back yard first. You can blame the terrorists for what they have done, but you can't really get angry at them when it is your own government who is provoking them.

I don't know how many people are standing in line at the Chinese Embassies. That's why I asked the question.

I do know when I went to China in 1978, it took over one year to get our entry visas approved.

You contradict yourself in your post. In one paragraph you state you don't necessarily blame US policies for terrorism. In the next paragraph you say one can blame the terrorists for what they have done but it is our own government that is provoking them. How then can you say US policies are not responsible for terrorism yet our government is provoking terrorist acts.

Very strange.

I blame the terrorists for what they did. Even if they were provoked, they are responsible for how they respond to that provoking. I however won't retaliate against the terrorists, because I know they were provoked. I can blame them without becoming angry because I see the situation from their point of view also. They are simply terribly misguided people who did bad things, and the way to stop those bad things is to remove the provocation, not try and go after them. Not unless they don't stop.

I don't know why you have a problem separating direct blame for an event from the mitigating factors. It seems quite clear to me.

I blame the terrorists for what they did. Even if they were provoked, they are responsible for how they respond to that provoking. I however won't retaliate against the terrorists, because I know they were provoked. I can blame them without becoming angry because I see the situation from their point of view also. They are simply terribly misguided people who did bad things, and the way to stop those bad things is to remove the provocation, not try and go after them. Not unless they don't stop.

I don't know why you have a problem separating direct blame for an event from the mitigating factors. It seems quite clear to me.

Doing nothing isn't an option when the terrorists are killing thousands. Changing our policies to meet the approval of said terrorists also won't work. Osama and al Qaeda wanted the infidel armies out of the holy lands of Median and Mecca (US out of Saudi Arabia). The US Military left and al Qaeda found something else to use as an excuse. No, changing policies to appease the fanatics isn't the way to do it, hunting them down and killing them is.

I wonder how many individuals are standing in line in embassies around the world to apply for resident/work visas to enter China and Russia.

It is quite probable I may be moving to China in the next few years. I am looking forward to it. I would suspect there are many others out there who would also welcome the opportunity. If it happens I think it will be a wonderful chance for my kids to learn Mandarin, which is going to be the next global language.

I would expect the lines are smaller at their embassy though because their processes are more streamlined and their entry requirements not so severe. They aren't the hated empire yet, so they can be more casual about admissions. Rather than using lines as an indicator, I would be interested to see what are the numbers of people requesting visas to visit China vs. visas to the USA. I would bet China is much more popular than you think.

But to get back on topic, people make their own choices regarding how to act to injustices. I don't necessarily blame the US policies for terrorism. Putting 911 aside for the moment, there are quite clearly mid eastern terrorists who gleefully attack and kill Americans who had little if anything to do with their situation. I would never blame to US for this behavior.

On the other hand, Americans are ignorant for allowing the government to continue this global campaign of dominance, so if anyone really wants it to stop, they are going to have to wise up and clean up their own back yard first. You can blame the terrorists for what they have done, but you can't really get angry at them when it is your own government who is provoking them.

I don't know how many people are standing in line at the Chinese Embassies. That's why I asked the question.

I do know when I went to China in 1978, it took over one year to get our entry visas approved.

You contradict yourself in your post. In one paragraph you state you don't necessarily blame US policies for terrorism. In the next paragraph you say one can blame the terrorists for what they have done but it is our own government that is provoking them. How then can you say US policies are not responsible for terrorism yet our government is provoking terrorist acts.

Very strange.

I blame the terrorists for what they did. Even if they were provoked, they are responsible for how they respond to that provoking. I however won't retaliate against the terrorists, because I know they were provoked. I can blame them without becoming angry because I see the situation from their point of view also. They are simply terribly misguided people who did bad things, and the way to stop those bad things is to remove the provocation, not try and go after them. Not unless they don't stop.

I don't know why you have a problem separating direct blame for an event from the mitigating factors. It seems quite clear to me.

You say they have to take responsibility for their actions but then proceed to say you wouldn't retaliate because they were provoked.

If you refuse to retaliate, there is no responsibility attached to their actions and anarchy rules.

Terribly misguided indeed.