UK pensions

[JetsetBkk]

I gave a 'like' for the post but am nonetheless of the opinion that countries outside the EU where Brits receive upgrades were selected with the help of little more than a dart board!

I recon he must be a treasury solicitor

The countries where Brits receive upgrades are the ones with whom the UK has a reciprocal social security agreement, by that I mean that citizens of one country can receive benefits in the reciprocating country. No such agreement exists between the UK and Thailand.

I know two Thai ladies that are in the UK on the dole...Married and divorced their UK husbands.....Years back got a UK PP. after a couple/few years...

Thats two I know about......If they fell out with their UK husband it should have been made clear they must go back to Thailand....Me in LOS must bugger off if me and Mrs.Trans part/divorce in 7 days.........

Yes, but Farangland is rich and can afford it (them) - every Thai knows that, just like they know every farang man is rich. "Som nam na" to us .

[Krataiboy]

One or two word games being conveniently played here, let me clarify:

The term expat is not so much about where you live but where you don't live. If you are non-resident in the UK for tax purposes you are clearly a UK expat, the fact that you may never be allowed to attain Thai residency is irrelevant to the discussion, as is any comment regarding domicile. Frankly it's a bit OTT for UK citizens who have lived in Thailand for many years but who still claim UK residency via a convenience address to be any part of the debate on pension uplift, you know who you are.

If you are non-resident in the UK for tax purposes you are clearly a UK expat

Yes, except that even under this definition, a retired person living in Thailand or any other country which has no double taxation agreement with the UK (and is not claiming UK residency "via a convenience address" (as I accept some people do) is unfairly treated.

Such an individual is taxed on any income arising in the UK, including pensions, and yet receives absolutely nothing in return, so far as I can see. As well as having their state pension frozen on leaving to live overseas, a retired British expats receive no state pension uplifts until the day they die.

The rules regarding NHS treatment were changed not long ago, with the effect that any expat pensioner from Thailand who has NHS treatment while on a visit to the UK now has to cough up 150 per cent of the cost.

Bearing in mind the largesse handed out willy nilly to foreign refugees and immigrants to Britain who have never contributed via taxation of NI contributions, this seems a little uncharitable, to say the least - particularly since anyone over 70 is unlikely to be able to purchase private medical insurance to cover the costs of hospitalisation in either their adopted home or their country of domicile, which remains the UK. (in this context, the term IS relevant).

You may not feel that not to have the status of a resident in any country is irrelevant, and of course you are entitled to your view. But in practical terms it is highly relevant, particularly for expats in their twilight years with Thai families they cannot bring to the UK because of the unrealistically high scale of earnings requirements imposed by the current government.

I fully understand the attitude of unsympathetic people who say "Well, you knew all t his before you left the country". But this is simply not the case, for - as pointed out above - the rules of the game have changed to our detriment and are likely to do so again if and when the millionaire Chancellor carries through his intention to withdraw the personal tax allowance from expats, including retirees. Many expat pensioners who rely entirely on their (frozen) state and company pension (if they are lucky enough to have one) will lose 20 per cent of their already modest income at a stroke.

Sorry to go on, but the devil is in the detail.The campaign to unfreeze our pensions looks a lost cause, but i fail to understand why the government cannot at least negotiate a reciprocal healthcare provision with the Thai government, along similar lines to those already existing with EU countries. It would ease an awful lot of worries for thousands of Brits in their vulne rable twilight years.

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

Resolution of this problem is not dependant on the UK government negotiating a reciprocal social security agreement with Thailand. They already have the power to instigate immediate increase's to UK state pensions, payable anywhere in the world. The reality is that they are unwilling to do so and the absence of a reciprocal social security agreement is simply a convenient beurocratic device to obfuscate the issue.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Rajab Al Zarahni

[jpinx]

Resolution of this problem is not dependant on the UK government negotiating a reciprocal social security agreement with Thailand. They already have the power to instigate immediate increase's to UK state pensions, payable anywhere in the world. The reality is that they are unwilling to do so and the absence of a reciprocal social security agreement is simply a convenient beurocratic device to obfuscate the issue.

Did someone not go through the list of countries and discover that they do not all have these reciprocal agreements? Or is this just my optimistic memory playing tricks?

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

The pension increases are paid in those countries with whome the UK has a reciprocal social security agreement and in the countries and territory's of the European Union, as a consequence of the UK government's treaty obligations with the EU. A reciprocal social security agreement is not a requirement to make the payment but the UK government have made it a requirement in the hope that they can lure some people into the false belief that it is somebody else's government who is responsible for the problem by it's failure to reach an agreement.

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

The pension increases are paid in those countries with whome the UK has a reciprocal social security agreement and in the countries and territory's of the European Union, as a consequence of the UK government's treaty obligations with the EU. A reciprocal social security agreement is not a requirement to make the payment but the UK government have made it a requirement in the hope that they can lure some people into the false belief that it is somebody else's government who is responsible for the problem by it's failure to reach an agreement.

[nong38]

The reciprical agreement is a convenient red herring, all that needs to changed is clause 20 of the latest Pension bill that went through Parliament just under a year ago.

As far as personal allowances are concerned I doubt that many people here have anything to worry about, our pensions arise in the UK and HMRC take their cut which we have no control over. Politically it would be suicide for them to withdraw personal allowances for pensioners who had left the UK, the public would not stand for it. The people who are most worried about the personal allowance situation are those people who changed their status in the past because it suited them to change their tax position. As we know the HMG have a history of moving the goal posts and what was right in the past may not be right today or in the future, I am sure you know who you are. You will just have to wait, like me and see what Osborn does and just in case anyone thinks I am a fan, well I am a great fan of chucking him the Thames! He is a little upstart who thinks he is a gift to the UK, words could describe what I really think, I just wait for his demise until then we have to put up with the little toff with the fancy dan hairstyle!

My best way to poke him the eye is to stick his EU club and vote for a Brexit.

[evadgib]

HM Mafia (a phrase coined by the late Arfur Daley) made clear at the conclusion of Carson that they had no intention of ever entering into reciprocal agreements after that date.

Presumably we can cry foul if the EU gets binned (there are a million or more there currently in the 'i'm alright Jack' club)? Doing so should double our ranks overnight.

Edited January 27, 2016 by evadgib

[uptheos]

Of interest to anyone in their mid 70's with a foot in both camps:

People over 75 may be asked to give up their free TV licence or make a voluntary contribution to it, under plans being considered by the BBC.

The corporation is due to take on the £650m cost of free licences for the over-75s from 2020 as part of a funding deal agreed with ministers last year.

A report on ways to appeal for voluntary contributions is due in 2016.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35397783

[chiang mai]

One or two word games being conveniently played here, let me clarify:

The term expat is not so much about where you live but where you don't live. If you are non-resident in the UK for tax purposes you are clearly a UK expat, the fact that you may never be allowed to attain Thai residency is irrelevant to the discussion, as is any comment regarding domicile. Frankly it's a bit OTT for UK citizens who have lived in Thailand for many years but who still claim UK residency via a convenience address to be any part of the debate on pension uplift, you know who you are.

If you are non-resident in the UK for tax purposes you are clearly a UK expat

Yes, except that even under this definition, a retired person living in Thailand or any other country which has no double taxation agreement with the UK (and is not claiming UK residency "via a convenience address" (as I accept some people do) is unfairly treated.

Such an individual is taxed on any income arising in the UK, including pensions, and yet receives absolutely nothing in return, so far as I can see. As well as having their state pension frozen on leaving to live overseas, a retired British expats receive no state pension uplifts until the day they die.

The rules regarding NHS treatment were changed not long ago, with the effect that any expat pensioner from Thailand who has NHS treatment while on a visit to the UK now has to cough up 150 per cent of the cost.

Bearing in mind the largesse handed out willy nilly to foreign refugees and immigrants to Britain who have never contributed via taxation of NI contributions, this seems a little uncharitable, to say the least - particularly since anyone over 70 is unlikely to be able to purchase private medical insurance to cover the costs of hospitalisation in either their adopted home or their country of domicile, which remains the UK. (in this context, the term IS relevant).

You may not feel that not to have the status of a resident in any country is irrelevant, and of course you are entitled to your view. But in practical terms it is highly relevant, particularly for expats in their twilight years with Thai families they cannot bring to the UK because of the unrealistically high scale of earnings requirements imposed by the current government.

I fully understand the attitude of unsympathetic people who say "Well, you knew all t his before you left the country". But this is simply not the case, for - as pointed out above - the rules of the game have changed to our detriment and are likely to do so again if and when the millionaire Chancellor carries through his intention to withdraw the personal tax allowance from expats, including retirees. Many expat pensioners who rely entirely on their (frozen) state and company pension (if they are lucky enough to have one) will lose 20 per cent of their already modest income at a stroke.

Sorry to go on, but the devil is in the detail.The campaign to unfreeze our pensions looks a lost cause, but i fail to understand why the government cannot at least negotiate a reciprocal healthcare provision with the Thai government, along similar lines to those already existing with EU countries. It would ease an awful lot of worries for thousands of Brits in their vulne rable twilight years.

"Yes, except that even under this definition, a retired person living in Thailand or any other country which has no double taxation agreement with the UK (and is not claiming UK residency "via a convenience address" (as I accept some people do) is unfairly treated".

The existence of a double tax agreement or not doesn't even enter the argument, the fact is that all UK citizens, resident or not, have a personal allowance against which UK arising income may be offset.

"NHS"

Agreed, it's an appalling and almost criminal scenario.

"Refugees and Immigrants".

That's there business and not ours, not relevant to anything about us.

"Knew the Rules".

Again I agree and I have fallen afoul of post leaving rule changes both in the UK and the US where I was resident for many years, oddly none of those changes was to my benefit and I expect to see many more before I die.

[chiang mai]

The reciprical agreement is a convenient red herring, all that needs to changed is clause 20 of the latest Pension bill that went through Parliament just under a year ago.

As far as personal allowances are concerned I doubt that many people here have anything to worry about, our pensions arise in the UK and HMRC take their cut which we have no control over. Politically it would be suicide for them to withdraw personal allowances for pensioners who had left the UK, the public would not stand for it. The people who are most worried about the personal allowance situation are those people who changed their status in the past because it suited them to change their tax position. As we know the HMG have a history of moving the goal posts and what was right in the past may not be right today or in the future, I am sure you know who you are. You will just have to wait, like me and see what Osborn does and just in case anyone thinks I am a fan, well I am a great fan of chucking him the Thames! He is a little upstart who thinks he is a gift to the UK, words could describe what I really think, I just wait for his demise until then we have to put up with the little toff with the fancy dan hairstyle!

My best way to poke him the eye is to stick his EU club and vote for a Brexit.

Well that's the thing you see, two of my pensions arise in the UK and both are within the personal allowance hence they are not taxed, removal of the allowance will result in a 20% loss to me personally and I suspect there are many others in the same boat. As for people not standing for it, methinks the vast majority of UK resident citizens will be at least a little bit pleased that expats are no longer receiving onshore benefits when they no longer live in the country, the mad rush by thousands of expats to claim winter heating benefits helped put a nail in that coffin. You know who you are!.

As for Osborne: he's a very bright lad and he's got balls plus he's doing his damnedest to get the UK out of the financial mess left to us by previous governments and by fairly recent world events. The fact that he's not doing all the things that suit you (or me) is really not the issue, he's actually doing a pretty good job, but would I like to go out for a beer with him or invite him around my house, no chance.

[jacky54]

Mad rush to claim heating allowances, when was that? They send letters inviting you to apply when you are 62. I'd definitely go back home if they scraped the personal allowance, actually would be a good excuse.

Edited January 28, 2016 by jacky54

[Jip99]

Mad rush to claim heating allowances, when was that? They send letters inviting you to apply when you are 62. I'd definitely go back home if they scraped the personal allowance, actually would be a good excuse.

Nobody should need an excuse to leave somewhere they don't want to be, or to go somewhere else.

[chiang mai]

Mad rush to claim heating allowances, when was that? They send letters inviting you to apply when you are 62. I'd definitely go back home if they scraped the personal allowance, actually would be a good excuse.

By UK citizens living overseas as expats in warm/hot countries, it was fashionable and in vogue at one point, as you know. And honestly, all that did was to tar all expats with the same brush. Regardless of whether you were sent a letter or not, the fact remains the allowance was intended to support older people during cold spells and to help protect them against high energy bills, not to buy them an extra leo at some bar in Pattaya!

Edited January 28, 2016 by chiang mai

[steve187]

winter fuel payments should be made by way of a voucher that is used to pay utility services only.

[jacky54]

Winter fuel payments like child benefits should be income related. As it is you get them even if you have millions

[nontabury]

Mad rush to claim heating allowances, when was that? They send letters inviting you to apply when you are 62. I'd definitely go back home if they scraped the personal allowance, actually would be a good excuse.

Nobody should need an excuse to leave somewhere they don't want to be, or to go somewhere else.

I don't think he actually meant an excuse,just another reason,as in the last nail in the coffin.

Unfortunately the powers that be in the UK, know for sure that there is no chance of all Ex-pat pensioners returning to the UK. If they were to, it would probably cause a financial crisis.

[nontabury]

The reciprical agreement is a convenient red herring, all that needs to changed is clause 20 of the latest Pension bill that went through Parliament just under a year ago.

As far as personal allowances are concerned I doubt that many people here have anything to worry about, our pensions arise in the UK and HMRC take their cut which we have no control over. Politically it would be suicide for them to withdraw personal allowances for pensioners who had left the UK, the public would not stand for it. The people who are most worried about the personal allowance situation are those people who changed their status in the past because it suited them to change their tax position. As we know the HMG have a history of moving the goal posts and what was right in the past may not be right today or in the future, I am sure you know who you are. You will just have to wait, like me and see what Osborn does and just in case anyone thinks I am a fan, well I am a great fan of chucking him the Thames! He is a little upstart who thinks he is a gift to the UK, words could describe what I really think, I just wait for his demise until then we have to put up with the little toff with the fancy dan hairstyle!

My best way to poke him the eye is to stick his EU club and vote for a Brexit.

Well that's the thing you see, two of my pensions arise in the UK and both are within the personal allowance hence they are not taxed, removal of the allowance will result in a 20% loss to me personally and I suspect there are many others in the same boat. As for people not standing for it, methinks the vast majority of UK resident citizens will be at least a little bit pleased that expats are no longer receiving onshore benefits when they no longer live in the country, the mad rush by thousands of expats to claim winter heating benefits helped put a nail in that coffin. You know who you are!.

As for Osborne: he's a very bright lad and he's got balls plus he's doing his damnedest to get the UK out of the financial mess left to us by previous governments and by fairly recent world events. The fact that he's not doing all the things that suit you (or me) is really not the issue, he's actually doing a pretty good job, but would I like to go out for a beer with him or invite him around my house, no chance.

Why do you continually make cheap shots at those who may be making claims to which they are not entitled. As someone who has never claimed any sort of benefit, I say best of luck to them. I just wish I had never been honest with my details to the UK government,who have and are still cheating me and tens of thousands of other NI payers from what is rightly ours.

[CharlieH]

Flame/insult post removed.

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[i claudius]

Mad rush to claim heating allowances, when was that? They send letters inviting you to apply when you are 62. I'd definitely go back home if they scraped the personal allowance, actually would be a good excuse.

By UK citizens living overseas as expats in warm/hot countries, it was fashionable and in vogue at one point, as you know. And honestly, all that did was to tar all expats with the same brush. Regardless of whether you were sent a letter or not, the fact remains the allowance was intended to support older people during cold spells and to help protect them against high energy bills, not to buy them an extra leo at some bar in Pattaya!

If British pensions were not amongst the lowest in the western world , they would not need heating allowances

[Eff1n2ret]

This thread is well past its sell-by date. No useful information, just a bunch of old women moaning.

[transam]

I know a UK guy in LOS who just paid back a few years heating allowance, I have read the demand paperwork..

[jacky54]

how did they catch him?

[jpinx]

I'd back the call for Utility credit vouchers rather than cash - stop some of the abuse.

[loppylugs1]

This thread is well past its sell-by date. No useful information, just a bunch of old women moaning.

Go along with this 100%,same doom and gloom merchants pouring forth,same-same crap ,Thread been in being 4 to 5 years ,same rubbish,another 4 to 5 years ahead too,same rubbish.

What basically inspires the doom and gloomsters is jealousy,not the overall picture of frozen pensions.

Basically there are a few ways to be "caught out" you tell them, private pension provider has your address here or informant,..but the the penalties are minuscule...its guidance ,not law being frozen,never be prosecuted and if ,a big IF caught out you have been here a few weeks

You will never be caught out by passport,different dept,do not share information,plus OAP cannot be claimed back,any other benefit can credits for instance ie present passport Australian issue,that of course means I'm in Aussie (I think not)

Edited January 28, 2016 by loppylugs1

[transam]

how did they catch him?

His friend in LOS got caught claiming he lived in the UK and had to pay a lot of dosh back. Have tried to get the info on that with no luck...

So this guy in fear told them he now lived in LOS, they did some homework and nabbed him. He got pounced on for pension repayment but I haven't seen the paperwork for that...

BUT, me helping him in sorting his paperwork for his new PP a UK letter to his Thai address must be provided, thats how I know he got the demand, I read it...

[jacky54]

His mate was probably ratted on, daft to turn yourself in

[bob009]

If they do take away the tax allowances nothing we Expats can do about it other than return to the UK. I for one would not go as even doubling my current tax bill would still make it cheaper to live in Thailand

[jacky54]

well it is a bit cheaper until you get a medical bill. I notice Por the soap actor who died last week was in a govt hospital with dengue fever for 72 days and the bill was 18 million baht!

[loppylugs1]

If they do take away the tax allowances nothing we Expats can do about it other than return to the UK. I for one would not go as even doubling my current tax bill would still make it cheaper to live in Thailand

If you think tax allowances will ever be taken away from ex-pats you will be thinking there are fairies at the bottom of the garden...another load of tripe