Some Advice With Regards To A Prenup

[ShanePashen]

I have taken the time to read up on Mario2008's advice on prenup's

What sort of money would i be up for to have a prenup drawn up & signed at the time of a wedding.

I am sure there must be many ex pats here, who have wanted to protect their assets in case things went shall we say a little a wry down the track.

it seems to be more of a straight forward thing than in Australia, where a binding financial agreement can be up to Aud $3000 for a prenup or co habitation agreement.

I see there is an advantage to getting married in Thailand, please don't hesitate to give me any advice with regards to asset protection.

As we know things in life often don't work out as we plan them.

[ShanePashen]

And for what it's worth I have been divorced in Australia, and had my arse reamed. I could go on, but it's very boring, many have been down the same dark path as me. I am now 46, still can't believe that, but there is no way i could endure getting the shit kicked out of me again in a divorce.

Especially from someone who brought nothing into the marriage, whatever we acquired during the marriage i have no problem splitting 50/50.

That's only fair, but "fair doesn't seem to count for much in the family court of Australia.

OK rant is over now, time for a scotch.

[BookMan]

Good idea about the pre nup. Very sensible. I'm of similar age to yourself and no way would i want to lose what I have worked for at this age.

I'd be interested to hear what your possibly soon to be wife thinks about the pre nup?

[Mario2008]

The price will very much depend on the law office you use.

A prenup will be good in Thailand, if you two ever go abroad and live in another country the prenup migth not be as hard as you thought. Different countries have different rules.

[ShanePashen]

The price will very much depend on the law office you use.

A prenup will be good in Thailand, if you two ever go abroad and live in another country the prenup migth not be as hard as you thought. Different countries have different rules.

Mario2008 is there any law office you could recommend in BKK or HKT that would charge a reasonable fee,

I have discussed the issue of a prenup with her, and she says she is fine with that, protecting primarliy house, super, and what I have now,

[David48]

The price will very much depend on the law office you use.

A prenup will be good in Thailand, if you two ever go abroad and live in another country the prenup migth not be as hard as you thought. Different countries have different rules.

Mario2008 is there any law office you could recommend in BKK or HKT that would charge a reasonable fee,

I have discussed the issue of a prenup with her, and she says she is fine with that, protecting primarliy house, super, and what I have now,

Shane, maybe revisit what Mario wrote you above.

A pre-nup drafted in Thailand I'm sure is great, but if you plan to live the bulk of your live in another country, you might have to consider the pre-nup drafted in that country.

If you marry (officially and not a village ceremony) in Thailand and have the pre-nup in Thailand, but live in another country, that might change the rules again.

Lastly, if you have a current valid Will (last will and Testament and all that) as soon as you marry, under Australian Law your will is null and void.

What happens if I marry?

A Will is revoked by marriage. It is important for all married persons to make a Will.

If you die without making a Will during your current marriage, your estate would be distributed according to the laws of intestacy.

http://www.netlawman...l-australia.php

Edited April 2, 2012 by David48

[David48]

Following from the above post ...

The law regarding succession in Australia varies dependent on the state or territory ...

Priority

In general terms the intestacy rules determine a priority for succession in the event of there being no will with the usual priority as follows :-

• spouses including de facto relationships
  
• children (or issue of such children if a child predeceases the deceased)
  
• parents
  
• siblings
  
• nieces and nephews
  
• grandparents
  
• aunts and uncles (or their children, if an aunt or uncles predeceases the deceased)
  

http://www.challenge.../intestacy.html

Let us know what you decide to do ...

Edited April 2, 2012 by David48

[ShanePashen]

Some very relevant thoughts, with regard to a will,that would need to be updated.

I have spoken to my solicitor here, (he has been a solicitor for 40 years) and acted for me in my divorce property settlement, with regards to how binding an ovderseas prenup IS in Australia.

Any Children together change everything,BASICALLY TEAR IT UP. he tells me it's not like the USA here. WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN AROUND SINCE THE 50'S AND 60'S, and under the family law act of Australia 1975, Cohabitation binding financial agreements, made overseas can be challenged here. Although if it went to court, they would definitley be taken into account by the court, if prepared properley. length of time, relationship, financial inputs, Age. prospects, are all determining factors in an outcome.

BUT YES 100% THEY CAN BE CHALLENGED HERE!!

He said frankly to me, if for example a claim was made in the event of a property settlement dispute, if I had my partner had a solicitor working on a no win no fee structure. That he may(my council) may advise me to setlle out of court with her, for a much smaller sum, but still not insignifigant sum. To avoid the massive legal fees of the family or federal court

SO there you go, quite scary stuff.

For me anyway, brought up a lot of bad memories even talking to him again, he though he is as far as lawyers go, a decent bloke, and was fantastic helping me a few years back.

He was the only person I knew who had a calming effect on my ex wife.

he was like the bitch whisperer!

[farangme]

As for America, you need prenup in both languages and seperate atty's advising each person, otherwise not valid. If any evidence of pressure or coercion, not valid. Even then, court may not hold up prenup if challenged.

Unless you plan on taking gf to live in home country, why even get married? Many Thai marriages aren't even on paper. Either way, if you split up in TL, she can screw with you in many ways if she wants to, some lethal.

Good luck.

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

[ShanePashen]

As for America, you need prenup in both languages and seperate atty's advising each person, otherwise not valid. If any evidence of pressure or coercion, not valid. Even then, court may not hold up prenup if challenged.

Unless you plan on taking gf to live in home country, why even get married? Many Thai marriages aren't even on paper. Either way, if you split up in TL, she can screw with you in many ways if she wants to, some lethal.

Good luck.

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

yes he drilled that into me as well, independent legal advice documented for both parties is a must, or the courts here will take a very dim few of that... exactly the same as here in that regard.

[ShanePashen]

Thankyou to everybody who gave me no help at all.

I have now engaged the services of a Thai law firm through my Migration Agent.

[55Jay]

Good and you are doing right by asking questions up front and consulting external and internal guidance.

We did the ceremoy bit a year earlier, then got around to the legal later. I also questioned myself why I was even doing the legal part at first, however it was a common necessity so I could formalise her residing with me abroad (spouse) and also in reverse should work situation evaporate and we made the move to LOS permanently - I would then go on the spouse visa which takes less resource$. Edit: And passport/Thai ID name change for house channote, driver's license, etc...

I used SunBelt (SB) in BKK for the prenup, had no idea what I was doing, never done one before. Wasn't that expensive, although I had no point of ref, but I didn't feel like I was being taken for an unreasonable ride. It was all pretty straight forward. Communicated with SB by email ahead of our trip to LOS, so I knew the costs, documents needed, and the basic procedure before visiting their office.

Had the uncomfortable discussion with wife in advance. It was hard, she agreed, but I could see it was a real gutt punch for her. I would feel the same way if I honestly loved someone and suddenly the cold legal "condom" was applied. It was difficult. For both of us.

Felt like a complete heel during the process at SunBelt. I felt bad for her as, at first, she had no assets listed on "her" paper. To make it feel better and avoid further embarrassment, I prompted her with "What about this, that?, etc". so listed the truck, the house, her BK Bank accts, etc. Not that I could or would go after any of it, but felt her perk up and feel a bit more a part of what was obvoiusly a one-sided affair.

I have no idea how good the document will be if ever needed in future, but it gave me some sense of security instead of stumbling along a well worn path with no realistic forethought. Anyway, that was 3 or 4 years ago and those difficult feelings lingered for a few days under the surface between us, but are now forgotten.

Note: SB (and others) repeatedly told me to have the PNup registered by whatever Ampur office we used to register our marriage. That made sense to me however proved to be a little difficult to get done, which resurrected the embarrassment and feelings during the initial SB prenup process. My wife had to take an active part in trying to explain what we (ok, "I") wanted to the govt office people in a relatively small town. I felt really bad for her as I dug my heels in until it was understood and accomplished. Feeling like an arse all over again, I almost threw my hands up and said "forget it, Mai Pen Rai" and all that. Anyway, stuck with it, took about an hour of jabbering back and forth, phone calls made to the next higher district office (or something)....come back tomorrow. The next day we went back and the same people seemed ready for us, although one lady sorta rolled her eyes like, "Oh no, they're back", then it went like clockwork, annotated in a very important looking logbook, copies were taken and lots of stamps, etc.

Good luck to you.

J

Edited April 16, 2012 by 55Jay

[ShanePashen]

Good and you are doing right by asking questions up front and consulting external and internal guidance.

We did the ceremoy bit a year earlier, then got around to the legal later. I also questioned myself why I was even doing the legal part at first, however it was a common necessity so I could formalise her residing with me abroad (spouse) and also in reverse should work situation evaporate and we made the move to LOS permanently - I would then go on the spouse visa which takes less resource$. Edit: And passport/Thai ID name change for house channote, driver's license, etc...

I used SunBelt (SB) in BKK for the prenup, had no idea what I was doing, never done one before. Wasn't that expensive, although I had no point of ref, but I didn't feel like I was being taken for an unreasonable ride. It was all pretty straight forward. Communicated with SB by email ahead of our trip to LOS, so I knew the costs, documents needed, and the basic procedure before visiting their office.

Had the uncomfortable discussion with wife in advance. It was hard, she agreed, but I could see it was a real gutt punch for her. I would feel the same way if I honestly loved someone and suddenly the cold legal "condom" was applied. It was difficult. For both of us.

Felt like a complete heel during the process at SunBelt. I felt bad for her as, at first, she had no assets listed on "her" paper. To make it feel better and avoid further embarrassment, I prompted her with "What about this, that?, etc". so listed the truck, the house, her BK Bank accts, etc. Not that I could or would go after any of it, but felt her perk up and feel a bit more a part of what was obvoiusly a one-sided affair.

I have no idea how good the document will be if ever needed in future, but it gave me some sense of security instead of stumbling along a well worn path with no realistic forethought. Anyway, that was 3 or 4 years ago and those difficult feelings lingered for a few days under the surface between us, but are now forgotten.

Note: SB (and others) repeatedly told me to have the PNup registered by whatever Ampur office we used to register our marriage. That made sense to me however proved to be a little difficult to get done, which resurrected the embarrassment and feelings during the initial SB prenup process. My wife had to take an active part in trying to explain what we (ok, "I") wanted to the govt office people in a relatively small town. I felt really bad for her as I dug my heels in until it was understood and accomplished. Feeling like an arse all over again, I almost threw my hands up and said "forget it, Mai Pen Rai" and all that. Anyway, stuck with it, took about an hour of jabbering back and forth, phone calls made to the next higher district office (or something)....come back tomorrow. The next day we went back and the same people seemed ready for us, although one lady sorta rolled her eyes like, "Oh no, they're back", then it went like clockwork, annotated in a very important looking logbook, copies were taken and lots of stamps, etc.

Good luck to you.

J

Ahh Finally someone with some usefull info.

What did it coast you from Sunbelt? Around 12000 Baht?

Did a guy called Emile handle it?

God or Buddha willing, we never have to bring it to the light of day.

But as we know many things can change over time, perhaps not even a long time.

[Razzler1973]

Had the uncomfortable discussion with wife in advance. It was hard, she agreed, but I could see it was a real gutt punch for her. I would feel the same way if I honestly loved someone and suddenly the cold legal "condom" was applied. It was difficult. For both of us.

Felt like a complete heel during the process at SunBelt. I felt bad for her as, at first, she had no assets listed on "her" paper. To make it feel better and avoid further embarrassment, I prompted her with "What about this, that?, etc". so listed the truck, the house, her BK Bank accts, etc. Not that I could or would go after any of it, but felt her perk up and feel a bit more a part of what was obvoiusly a one-sided affair.

I don't envy you that conversation.

You can imagine a girl thinking she's getting some security for her future and a partner and then getting hit with a pre-nup ... not easy but neccessary

[ShanePashen]

I look at it like this.

There leaves no grey area as to what is what.

Should you choose to part company in the future.

It is never an easy subject to broach, and needs to be handled delicately

I hope it never has to see the light of day.

But as many of us know, things can change over time.

I can recommend the bang rak Amphoe, they were very skilled in handling the notarising of the document, during marriage.

Nice guys and very professional.

[irlguy1]

I am in the process of having a prenup drawn up and am wondering if someone has a copy of an example of one and also any suggestions as to what they have added in to the standard one. Please no smart ass comments I just want to be sure I have covered all basis.

To the guys that have done one I would really appreciate some pointers to give to solicitor in case we both miss something and later regret.

Thanks

[bangkokburning]

I think it's worthless and it only sours the realtionship. If you stay in Thailand, you just have to gaurd your assets meaning: Keep all your assets in your name. If you buy a condo, its in your name preferably prior to marriage. After, still in your name (if you get divorced, sell it off and bail the country). Property - never.

If she is headed to your country, what I understand is that it is worthless as she can feign not understanding OR a crafty lawyer will say she was coercered or at very least it, signature was attached to "her future". Overseas, not worried about kids - they have to be in the country to file and pursue a lawsuit and how would they figure in anyway? They are not yours, not in country.

In the end, it is about love and trust - but I would not buy property personally. Keep your assets simple in Thailand.

Overseas, in your country - that prenup should be done in your country on a tourist visa prior to marriage IMO.

[bangkokburning]

I recall one guys post some time ago - she felt like such an assclown. Sitting in the lawyers office he had all his big ass assets listed out and her - nothing. She looked sad and forlorn. I am sure the trust thing took a MAJOR hit that day.

Make sure whatever you do - it's not ALL ABOUT YOU.

[irlguy1]

I think it's worthless and it only sours the realtionship. If you stay in Thailand, you just have to gaurd your assets meaning: Keep all your assets in your name. If you buy a condo, its in your name preferably prior to marriage. After, still in your name (if you get divorced, sell it off and bail the country). Property - never.

If she is headed to your country, what I understand is that it is worthless as she can feign not understanding OR a crafty lawyer will say she was coercered or at very least it, signature was attached to "her future". Overseas, not worried about kids - they have to be in the country to file and pursue a lawsuit and how would they figure in anyway? They are not yours, not in country.

In the end, it is about love and trust - but I would not buy property personally. Keep your assets simple in Thailand.

Overseas, in your country - that prenup should be done in your country on a tourist visa prior to marriage IMO.

Wow tough crowd 555

Marriage is in two months then she will be coming to live in my country so I guess I gotta hope it's about love and trust.

Thanks for the input

[irlguy1]

I recall one guys post some time ago - she felt like such an assclown. Sitting in the lawyers office he had all his big ass assets listed out and her - nothing. She looked sad and forlorn. I am sure the trust thing took a MAJOR hit that day.

Make sure whatever you do - it's not ALL ABOUT YOU.

Never thought about it like that

It's a fair point but after getting shafted by my falang ex wife i belong to the once bitten club.

Fcked if I do and fcked if I don't.

Excuse me while I go throw up 555

[ShanePashen]

I recall one guys post some time ago - she felt like such an assclown. Sitting in the lawyers office he had all his big ass assets listed out and her - nothing. She looked sad and forlorn. I am sure the trust thing took a MAJOR hit that day.

Make sure whatever you do - it's not ALL ABOUT YOU.

Never thought about it like that

It's a fair point but after getting shafted by my falang ex wife i belong to the once bitten club.

Fcked if I do and fcked if I don't.

Excuse me while I go throw up 555

Welcome to the shafted club.

Unfortunately I don't think it's a very exclusive club.

Especially here.

I liken this club to getting your dick stuck in your zipper, if you do it once, you will make sure you never do it again.

Yes do a prenup, give sunbelt lawyers a call. They did mine.

Great service and really switched on, ask to speak to Emile de Marsac.

Really nice guy, they won't treat your future wife like a 2nd class citizen.

They will afford her all the dignity she deseves, and explain it all in Thai to her, from a Lawyer, not an armchair lawyer sitting in Britain posting on Thai visa.

Mine was done to be applicable for Australian family law, and binding here.

It all gets notarised and a contract drawn up. printed and hit with seal of Thailand.

It is then lodged at the Amphur, make 2 copies when you go there, so 3 altogether.

Original plus 2. Lawyers do this.

And all for a fraction of the price of what it is done for in Australia.

I don't know your circumstnaces, but think of it as protecting your kids inheritance perhaps.

I love my wife and hope it never has to see the light of day.

[irlguy1]

Thanks for that mate.

Any specific terms you added on to the basic one.

[ShanePashen]

Thanks for that mate.

Any specific terms you added on to the basic one.

Where are you intending to live?

Make SURE it is drafted to be applicable in your country of residence.

They do these all the time,

WIthout divulging too many personal details, I did major assets, future inheritances, and Superannuation.

I was also fair as to be what we acquire jointly after we are married, be split 50/50 in the event of future separation.

If she has land, make sure it is included, even scooter.

My wife had no problems with it,

I feel it helped the relationship between my children and her.

A lot of bad stereotyping abut Asian gold diggers here in Oz.

Mainly Filipinas, but it exists.

Good luck and I wish you a long and prosperous marriage.

[ShanePashen]

I recall one guys post some time ago - she felt like such an assclown. Sitting in the lawyers office he had all his big ass assets listed out and her - nothing. She looked sad and forlorn. I am sure the trust thing took a MAJOR hit that day.

Make sure whatever you do - it's not ALL ABOUT YOU.

I respectfully disagree with everything you say!

If it's handled well with dignity and professionalism.

[irlguy1]

Really appreciate all the replies every little helps

[deadman]

hi there

I got lotsa assets back home in OZ, protected by trusts, but i don't know just how safe these (trusts) are. Never been married b4 but dread the whole prenup thing

I will soon marry my GF of 3 years. Live here and have no desire to return to OZ to live. I wonder if a PN is necessary?

cheers

[Mario2008]

If you have assets it is a consideration, but would also depend on how the trust is set up. Under Thai law you only split what is acquired during the marriage, not what you had before the marriage.

Also consider that a prenup can protect both parties. If you have for instance high risk investments and could potentially lose a lot of money and be left with a debt, it would protect her.

[bangkokburning]

Your prenup in Thailand may be worthless in Oz where you intend to live. IMO she will need to sign it in Oz. I seriously doubt papers can be mailed to/fro from Oz to be handled and presented here, I am sure that it will need to be notarized and no one does that I believe in Thailand.

I would tell you to def protect yourself in Thailand and esp in OZ (don't know how you are going to do that not being in OZ prior to marriage - but also that imo a B12k prenup is scatch paper. In the end, you have to take care of yourself to the poin that you call pull up and move in Thailand and what is left behind - is hers. In OZ it is far more complicated and in the end - you have decided to live there so you will have to abide by you countries laws good or ill. US functions much like Thailand at a basic level. Prior to marriage you each have assets. Aquired during marriage is split.

If you have kids - all is lost so if you REALLY want to protect your assets - get a vasectomy!

[Mario2008]

I will soon marry my GF of 3 years. Live here and have no desire to return to OZ to live

Suggests that the Op intends to stay in Thailand. Under Thai law a prenup must be entered into the wedding register at the time of registering the marriage.

The point that if the assests are abroad the prenup might be best to also comply to the law of that land is something that should indeed be considered, and is best discussed with a lawyer. If living only in Thailand it might not be a point, but if you ever moved with the misses to your own country it might be. Some countries will not allow a spouse to be left out in the cold.

[inquisitive]

I am certainly not an expert in this area but I can add some information that might help. Please understand that this informationis accurate in New York State but not necessarily any place else. In the US, each state has its own little wrinkles in the law, so if you consider a prenup important, then you surely MUST include a lawyer in your plans. And if you don't think it is important, the I can only assume you are naive or else you are not expecting to be bringing anything into the marriage except your love. And perhaps your motorscooter.

It's been stated earlier that it is important that each party be represented by their own lawyer, and after watching my friend's American divorce stagger through the courts for over six years, I can see that is probably good advice. On the other hand, in my friend's case, seperate legal counsel was not absolutely essential to insure validity. That PN included a paragraph stating that the parties had agreed to use only a single lawyer to cut costs, and despite YEARS of wrangling over the PN and something like a half million dollars in combined legal fees, neither party nor the judge had any problem with that issue. Go figure. Things might have been different, however, if either party decided to challenge on that basis.

Furthermore, I was amazed to learn that an agreement which is exactly the same as a prenup, but signed some time after the wedding (thus technically making it a postnuptial agreement) is every bit as binding as a prenup.

As to your ownership of property that was yours before the marriage? Well, you could have to prove not only that you owned it prior, but that no marital funds or efforts went into its maintenance. For example, where did the money come from to pay the property taxes during the marriage? Was it from an account that you kept completely seperate from all joint assets, or did you pay from your main checking account (marital!). If you paid the taxes from the rent you received on the property, but you first mixed the rent money in with your main (marital account) even one single time, then you just shot yourself in the foot. If you lived in the house, and you upgraded a bathroom during the marriage, where did the money come from for that change, and how much does the upgrade increase the value of the basic house? If the funds for the change came from a marital source, then even if the house was yours alone before the marriage, the increase in value created byt he new bathroom is marital.

Your IRA? Sure you started it before the marriage, but unless you can show that your after-wedding contributions came from a non-marital source, then the entire IRA can be considered marital, since you didn't keep your personal stuff isolated from marital. Basically, everything you own becomes marital the moment you say "I do" unless you can persuasively prove that it should not.

My point is that common sense has little to do with the courts, and so you really have to consult a pro to have any protection at all.

I do not know what the essential features the agreement must include, except that the judge in the case I've mentioned announced that the agreement must specifically state that it was to be effective in case of divorce. The parties in that case also had various family limited partnerships and trusts set up to give more detail to the postnup they signed and the judge threw them out because they did not include the word divorce. He challenged the parties saying that if they could show him the word "divorce" in the papers, then he was willing to follow their directives. Otherwise he claimed as a divorce judge his powers to divide things however he wanted superceded the signed, notarized, agreements (which, incidentally, had also been published inthe newspapers and registered at the government seat, and fully acknowleged by all parties in court). It was even pointed out that the agreements stated that they were to be valid and enforceable under any and all circumstances (which you would think included divorce), but the judge said that was not enough. Again this shows that an expert familiar with the local legal situation absolutely must be used or you proceed at your own peril.