Tomboy Gik

[brewsterbudgen]

This seems rather difficult for many here to grasp. Call a Dee a "lesbian" and she gets very upset!

I think you've proved my point. Sorry it's difficult for you to grasp.

I interpreted the above as you're claiming that we shouldn't call a Dee a lesbian.

Did you mean only that we should use the term "bisexual"?

I've known many Dee that won't go with guys, and in English I will call them lesbian even if it makes them angry.

Sex has very little to do with it.

Have a read of this:

"Arm in arm, two girls shuffle through the Siam Square shopping plaza, checking out a row of stalls selling lipstick and neon sunglasses.

Leading the way is Sudtida Vitoonkaewsiri, femme and perky, dyed locks curling at her bare shoulders. Dutifully carrying her purse is Sujintorn Buawan, broad-shouldered, boyish bangs swept to the side.

Similar girl-girl couplings can be found all over the city. But please, don’t call them lesbians. They prefer less general monikers, more specifically 'toms' for tomboys and 'dees' for ladies.

“A tom? You foreigners might call her a ‘lesbian’,” says Sudtida, while sweetly caressing Sujintorn’s palm. “But it’s different here. A tom is a woman who behaves like a man. They’re exactly like boys, only their bodies aren’t the same.”

To be a 'tom' is to adopt the male gender role completely: wearing jeans and T-shirts, binding breasts to their chest and refusing, even in the bedroom, to disrobe and shatter the illusion of maleness. To be 'dee' is to girl-it-out to the max: lipstick, sparkly handbags and heels.

A tom is like a guy -- but way better, say dees. Toms take them shopping, carry their bags and, in the bedroom, focus exclusively on pleasuring their dee. Returning an intimate touch to the tom is forbidden.

'The Tom will always win'

If you try to touch a tom in the bedroom, and she slaps your hand away, don’t be offended.

— Cee Webster

"In the last few years, I’ve seen a big increase in tom-dee couples,” says Darunee Bunma, 29, manager of the E-Fun: Extreme Fun for Ladies nightclub. A warning stenciled onto the door reads: “STRICTLY FOR LADIES ONLY!” The occasional male patron is quarantined on the patio.

“Toms really tend to their dees,” says Darunee. “They’re not adulterous. If you compare a tom with a boy, the tom will always win.”

Darunee’s girlfriend, a nightclub hostess, is a glossy-lipped, curled-lash portrait of femininity. A self-proclaimed dee since middle school, Nantawan Tathong says her parents have grown to accept her relationship with Darunee.

“Some girls are dees for fashion,” she says. “I’m the real thing.”

Returning the favor in bed"

Or you could read this:

http://books.google.co.th/books/about/Toms_and_Dees.html?id=LJvScDC_YqIC&redir_esc=y

Or the edited version here:

"Toms and Dees

provides highly personal yet representative snapshots of female same-sex relations in Thailand. Megan Sinnotts ably discusses the tense relations that bodies marked as

tom

(from “tomboy”) or

dee

(from “lady”) have with the prevailing norms of gender and sexuality in Thailand—more specifically, how they produce and de-produce, are undone by and are undoing these norms.

Developing on an insight of Foucauldian vintage, Sinnott challenges the assumption of “a stable, universal homosexual subject,” arguing that tom-deeism only began to emerge in Thailand during the 1970s. Of course, this is not the same thing as saying that female same-sex relations had never existed in the country prior to the seventies. Although sketchy, the historical record on female same-sex sexuality points to the rather well known practice of “

len pheuan

” (playing with friends), which dates to the Ayutthaya period (1350-1767) and which was legally prohibited for various reasons. But, as Sinnott points out, “

Len pheuan

is distinct from tom-deeism in that

len pheuan

is a description of a sexual behavior and is not an identity.” Put differently, “playing with friends” does not imply a doer behind the deed: sexuality is what one does not who one is.

Tom-deeism, on the other hand, signifies the unchanging ‘truth’ about certain bodies, linking sexuality with identity (i.e., a form of self-knowledge). It is buttressed by Western sexology and heteronormativity and became a standard discourse in Thai society by the 1970s. Female same-sex relations are thus now viewed or identified through the discourses of homosexuality and gender/sexual deviance: “The introduction of these pathologizing Western discourses in Thailand has led Thais to assume that toms and dees are and have always been ‘deviant’ and against cultural norms.”

In any case, Sinnott insists, the growth of tom-deeism in Thai society since the 1970s has been a by-product of rapid industrial development, which was dependent on cheapened female labor, and its accompanying social changes. She sums up thus: “The main factors that have opened the social space for the growth of the

tom-dee

subculture are the changes in marriage trends, rates of education, and rates of employment in occupations away from family, including industrial labor, service work, and professional occupations, as well as the development of a Thai middle class.” These are catalysts nurtured by the general conviction that female same-sex relationships are “asexual and aspects of female friendship.” For Thai women, having sex with a tom partner may also be less shameful—as it does not signify promiscuity—than engaging it with men.

So toms and dees are not only fairly recent discursive constructs, they are also coming out of the closet, so to speak, though “direct verbalizations of self as tom/dee, transgendered, or homosexual were uncommon” because they were deemed to confrontational. Hence, there is a stark “contrast between visual explicitness and verbal silence.” Their presence may help disrupt the ‘natural’ links between sex, gender, and sexuality, but by and large they have modified and adapted to rather than destabilized or subverted the gender and sexuality norms of Thai society. In fact, tom-deeism may represent the hybridizing and staying power of these norms in Thai society. And, perhaps most importantly, toms and dees may have ‘come out’, but only to be contained within or interpellated by another discursive closet of their own making; a closet with norms and regulations that are not necessarily emancipatory for many toms and dees.

Sinnott seems to suggest that the dynamics of tom-dee relations pivots on the ‘deviant’ or ‘mis-gendered’ tom masculinity. A tom is gendered and recognized as somewhere in between a woman and a eunuch. Toms often explain their identity as deriving from some genes, karmic consequences, or rational choice. Although gradually solidifying, dee “is not exactly an ‘identity’” and a dee is often considered to be an ‘ordinary’ woman who happens to like other women: “A dee, then, is not usually considered ‘homosexual,’ since she is feminine in dress, demeanor, speech and all other markers. Even sexually, a dee is understood as being attracted to masculinity, thereby rendering her ‘ordinary’ in the dominant discourse.” Put another way, Sinnott writes, “Dees who made little distinction between their tom lovers and men consequently made little distinction between themselves and ‘ordinary women.’” The status of dees in the Thai female same-sex community is therefore also ambivalent: dees are somehow internally excluded.

Sinnott deftly unpacks the impacts and ambiguities of tom masculinity. Like most ‘ordinary’ men, toms are interpellated and undone by hegemonic masculinity, by an ideal manhood no body could ever achieve. But, Sinnott continues, “Most toms positioned themselves as situated between ideal masculinity and femininity, strategically accessing claims to both genders, yet simultaneously distancing themselves from both ‘men’ and ‘women.’” Like men in Thai society, toms are expected to be “good providers, protectors, and leader,” and more specifically to have the attributes of “high-class Chinese men, such as [possessing] pale skin, small features, and wealth….” “The most sought-after toms,” Sinnott contends, “were often Chinese and wealthy.”

At the same time, ideal toms are expected to selflessly take care of their lovers and to be highly sensitive; these, of course, are characteristics drawn from hegemonic femininity. Hence, toms are in some sort of gender ambivalence. This may open the door to the emergence of a ‘butch phallus,’ which challenges the fact that masculinity is the natural domain of men as well as provides an alternative form of masculinity. Conversely, tom masculinity also reinforces the notion of female passivity and dependency. According to Sinnott’s research, many toms ultimately pressure their dee partners to leave them and pursue their ‘natural’ roles in life as wife and mother. This is a tacit admittance that heterosexual conjugal life is some sort of a moral law and confirms the view that dee is not a sexual identity (but a temporary practice or predicament).

The sexual relations between toms and dees in Thailand are however heavily pre-scripted along the lines of gender binarism rather than sexuality: “Same-gendered sex (dee-dee, tom-tom) is considered by toms and dees to be almost as ‘deviant’ as same-sex sexuality is positioned within homophobic discourses in the West.” Hence, there seems to be a general aversion among toms and dees to the category ‘lesbian,’ which is based on sexuality. However, as Sinnott points out, although toms and dees often mock penetrative sex like heterosexual couples they have to abide by a golden rule; that is, the practice of tom “untouchability.” Sinnott elaborates that like ‘stone butches’ and unlike ‘ordinary’ men, ‘real’ “toms do not allow their partner, or cannot ask their partner, to touch them sexually.” She perceptively comments: “The extreme irony of untouchability is that, rather than imitating sexual behaviors of men, it most fully demonstrates the femininity of tom identity. Toms are expected to provide sexual satisfaction to other partners, while minimizing their own physical needs.” Sexual reciprocity may however be more common that toms and dees are willing to admit.

Sinnott also deflates the myth of urban tolerance for female same-sex relations in Thailand. She argues that Thai elites “often had the strongest condemnation of same-sex behavior” and the “middle class urbanites…oppose homosexuality, believing that it was a form of sexual/gender deviance and psychologically abnormal.” The rural working class people, on the contrary, may oppose homosexuality on far more practical grounds: women need to get married and have children; conjugal life promises the greatest financial security for women as well as their parents and siblings—as ‘good daughters’ they must provide for the latter. (In other words, rural working class people may tolerate tom-deeism as long as women can also be good daughters.)

Sinnott ends her study with the prospects of the tom-dee community in Thailand, which is on the whole quite apolitical. She briefly examines the agendas and activities of two Thai female same-sex organizations, Anjaree and Lesla. And Sinnott concludes that beyond female same-sex solidarity lurks prejudices in the forms of class, ethnicity, and sexuality. (The feminist movement is all to well aware of these and other –isms that are impeding sisterhood.) The tom-dee community may have to be more assertive and political to cope with the rather homophobic (and nationalistic) campaigns and discourses of the Thai bureaucracy, medical professions, media and academia. And perhaps they can also do so by helping to undo gender’s grip on the body, identity and sexuality: we have bodies; they can perform identities; and they may have sexual desires. In other words, toms and dees should be interpreted as ‘tom-ing’ and ‘dee-ing’ rather than ossified identities with aprioristically determined sexual desires."

Edited May 5, 2012 by brewsterbudgen

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Sex has very little to do with it.

Have a read of this:

"Arm in arm, two girls shuffle through the Siam Square shopping plaza, checking out a row of stalls selling lipstick and neon sunglasses.

Sorry I'm not **that** interested to read a wall of sociological BS gobbledygook text like that, maybe give a TL:DR summary?

Edited May 5, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[brewsterbudgen]

Sex has very little to do with it.

Have a read of this:

"Arm in arm, two girls shuffle through the Siam Square shopping plaza, checking out a row of stalls selling lipstick and neon sunglasses.

Sorry I'm not **that** interested to read a wall of sociological BS gobbledygook text like that, maybe give a TL:DR summary?

Fair enough. It's there if you change your mind.

[TommoPhysicist]

Darunee’s girlfriend, a nightclub hostess, is a glossy-lipped, curled-lash portrait of femininity. A self-proclaimed dee since middle school,

I am reading this as 'girlfriend works as a prostitute' ............... surely not!

[xenophon]

I love these stories and there are so many of them. Don't be a silly old git.

Whether its a tomboy, another man or the famous up country "cousin", the answer is it is usually the beginning of the end and the death of trust (she has lied by omission already). Broken heart perhaps but better in the long run. Rules, threats, pleas don't apply.

Suggested response: $$$$. If tomboy wants in, it will cost ..... or simply cut money to squeeze monkey. I take it there are no kids involved. Then it would be different.

Turn to ice and get out!! If you are a decent guy, there are plenty of better offers around

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Fair enough. It's there if you change your mind.

If you're the author, didn't mean to offend. . .

I am reading this as 'girlfriend works as a prostitute' ............... surely not!

There you go, jumping to conclusions, sullying the pristine reputation of this fine country 8-)

Edited May 5, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[xenophon]

I have dealt with a similar situation. However it may not apply to your besotted friend. Although the advice in my previous post still applies - despite my resolution to not waste my time giving advice to most who don't listen - in your case. Be patient and listen to this brief story ....

I ran short courses in the 90's throughout SEAsia and played the field. Posted to Bangkok many eons ago and continued to do this. After some time I evolved a 'harem' of about 4 -6 wonderful girls who took their turns on different nights of the week - everybody was healthy, nobody stole, we could communicate and it was perfect. However, over about 2-3 years these girls, varying from middle class women to bar girls, began to marry foreign ATMs and moved off. I still see some who have returned or are back in town. ONe is 30 kilos heavier and dancing in Cowboy!!! Tragic - beautiful face and blimp body!

However, 1 woman was smarter than the rest, speks very good English and became my main squeeze - but I only want to see her on weekends which caused major suspicions and probs for her. After one year's training - 'where are you? what are you doing?', she eventually settled so successfully into this arrangement that I cannot get her during the week.

This is because she now has a tomboy. Luckily, it does not bother me because she is completely reliable in regard to me and I have tested her through illness. The tom does not bother me although I understand that the tom is worried about me. I was blind for 3 months, liquid draining from my eyes, the whole disaster and visually impaired for two years. She was there - every time (we abandoned the weekend schedule during that time). Still have significant eye problems. Anyway, it is a great arragement. If she does not turn up, I cut her money (which is not much)and not a squeak from her. Everybody is happy and I screw around during the week.

However, I realise that I am lucky and that not everybody is able to be as detached as this. Some remained sold on marriage, etc. In that case .. cut, cut cut. It is going to be very low quality and angst for you. But, as when I said to the guy about never giving his bird his pin no., they don't listen.

[elrey]

Pardon my ignorance but what's a Dee?

[necronx99]

Pardon my ignorance but what's a Dee?

The feminine partner of a tom.

[endure]

The mention of lesbians certainly encourages the straight 'experts' to impress us all with their knowledge...

[TommoPhysicist]

The mention of lesbians certainly encourages the straight 'experts' to impress us all with their knowledge...

What make you think any of us are straight?

[metisdead]

A post containing foul language has been removed as well as a reply.

[JurgenG]

I have dealt with a similar situation. However it may not apply to your besotted friend. Although the advice in my previous post still applies - despite my resolution to not waste my time giving advice to most who don't listen - in your case. Be patient and listen to this brief story ....

I ran short courses in the 90's throughout SEAsia and played the field. Posted to Bangkok many eons ago and continued to do this. After some time I evolved a 'harem' of about 4 -6 wonderful girls who took their turns on different nights of the week - everybody was healthy, nobody stole, we could communicate and it was perfect. However, over about 2-3 years these girls, varying from middle class women to bar girls, began to marry foreign ATMs and moved off. I still see some who have returned or are back in town. ONe is 30 kilos heavier and dancing in Cowboy!!! Tragic - beautiful face and blimp body!

However, 1 woman was smarter than the rest, speks very good English and became my main squeeze - but I only want to see her on weekends which caused major suspicions and probs for her. After one year's training - 'where are you? what are you doing?', she eventually settled so successfully into this arrangement that I cannot get her during the week.

This is because she now has a tomboy. Luckily, it does not bother me because she is completely reliable in regard to me and I have tested her through illness. The tom does not bother me although I understand that the tom is worried about me. I was blind for 3 months, liquid draining from my eyes, the whole disaster and visually impaired for two years. She was there - every time (we abandoned the weekend schedule during that time). Still have significant eye problems. Anyway, it is a great arragement. If she does not turn up, I cut her money (which is not much)and not a squeak from her. Everybody is happy and I screw around during the week.

However, I realise that I am lucky and that not everybody is able to be as detached as this. Some remained sold on marriage, etc. In that case .. cut, cut cut. It is going to be very low quality and angst for you. But, as when I said to the guy about never giving his bird his pin no., they don't listen.

When you lose faith in humanity, it's very comforting to meet from time to time in this forum people with high moral standard.

Edited May 6, 2012 by JurgenG

[Travel2003]

Straight Thai women turn to toms for much more than sex.

100% correct.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

When you lose faith in humanity, it's very comforting to meet from time to time in this forum people with high moral standard.

I agree, so many hypocritical cynics here, nice to read someone being open and sincere rather than the usual sarcasm. Sometimes you can't even tell when they're taking the piss.

[JurgenG]

When you lose faith in humanity, it's very comforting to meet from time to time in this forum people with high moral standard.

I agree, so many hypocritical cynics here, nice to read someone being open and sincere rather than the usual sarcasm. Sometimes you can't even tell when they're taking the piss.

100% agree with you.

We're now eagerly waiting for the open and sincere confession of a mass murderer.

[pxlgirl]

It seems that there is this wishful thinking straight men have, that lesbian women will return to the "right" path one day... So called "exception" are either straight women experimenting, or lesbians who fear to accept their orientation.

But how about gay men? I've never saw any debate about this one.

[TommoPhysicist]

It seems that there is this wishful thinking straight men have, that lesbian women will return to the "right" path one day... So called "exception" are either straight women experimenting, or lesbians who fear to accept their orientation.

But how about gay men? I've never saw any debate about this one.

I thought we were talking about Tom and Dee, as in not lesbians.

So why would you want to debate gay men

the opposing subject would be ladyboys and their boyfriends, as in not gay.

Edited May 6, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[gand]

It seems that there is this wishful thinking straight men have, that lesbian women will return to the "right" path one day... So called "exception" are either straight women experimenting, or lesbians who fear to accept their orientation.

But how about gay men? I've never saw any debate about this one.

au contraire mon ami

"Why do some women think they can 'convert' gay men?" hongkong.asiaxpat

"Do women try to convert gay men?"au.tv.yahoo "A bar for gay men wants to ban straight women who it claims are trying to convert their gay customers."

"HOW TO FAKE BEING GAY TO ATTRACT WOMEN" dateunknown

"Guys who pretend to be gay to get girls. What do you think of them??" sodahead

[BigJohnnyBKK]

100% agree with you.

We're now eagerly waiting for the open and sincere confession of a mass murderer.

Let me get this straight. Given some non-mainstream sexual preferences and/or behaviour that you consider deviant or "immoral" are undertaken between consenting adults and don't harm anyone - you honestly believe that such can be considered on the same continuum as mass murder?

Really?

Just how short is the list of practices, positions, orifices that you consider acceptable? Do the participants need to be legally married first?

Where did you get this list? Are you an orthodox practitioner of some religion? Enquiring minds want to know. . .

Edited May 6, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[FOODLOVER]

It seems that there is this wishful thinking straight men have, that lesbian women will return to the "right" path one day... So called "exception" are either straight women experimenting, or lesbians who fear to accept their orientation.

But how about gay men? I've never saw any debate about this one.

au contraire mon ami

"Why do some women think they can 'convert' gay men?" hongkong.asiaxpat

"Do women try to convert gay men?"au.tv.yahoo "A bar for gay men wants to ban straight women who it claims are trying to convert their gay customers."

"HOW TO FAKE BEING GAY TO ATTRACT WOMEN" dateunknown

"Guys who pretend to be gay to get girls. What do you think of them??" sodahead

This week on Jerry Springer!

[BigJohnnyBKK]

It seems that there is this wishful thinking straight men have, that lesbian women will return to the "right" path one day... So called "exception" are either straight women experimenting, or lesbians who fear to accept their orientation.

But how about gay men? I've never saw any debate about this one.

There's a huge industry in the US of "counselling" practices and "boot camp" style boarding schools where gay men whose parents refuse to accept their orientation send them for heinous brainwashing practices and physical abuse to try to "reverse" it. The husband of one of the Republican presidential candidates was in that business. Kids have few rights v/v their parents in many jurisdictions in the states, especially the religious-right conservative areas. Human rights organisations have started exposing the worst practices, but change is slow in coming. . .

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I have dealt with a similar situation. However it may not apply to your besotted friend. Although the advice in my previous post still applies - despite my resolution to not waste my time giving advice to most who don't listen - in your case. Be patient and listen to this brief story ....

I ran short courses in the 90's throughout SEAsia and played the field. Posted to Bangkok many eons ago and continued to do this. After some time I evolved a 'harem' of about 4 -6 wonderful girls who took their turns on different nights of the week - everybody was healthy, nobody stole, we could communicate and it was perfect. However, over about 2-3 years these girls, varying from middle class women to bar girls, began to marry foreign ATMs and moved off. I still see some who have returned or are back in town. ONe is 30 kilos heavier and dancing in Cowboy!!! Tragic - beautiful face and blimp body!

However, 1 woman was smarter than the rest, speks very good English and became my main squeeze - but I only want to see her on weekends which caused major suspicions and probs for her. After one year's training - 'where are you? what are you doing?', she eventually settled so successfully into this arrangement that I cannot get her during the week.

This is because she now has a tomboy. Luckily, it does not bother me because she is completely reliable in regard to me and I have tested her through illness. The tom does not bother me although I understand that the tom is worried about me. I was blind for 3 months, liquid draining from my eyes, the whole disaster and visually impaired for two years. She was there - every time (we abandoned the weekend schedule during that time). Still have significant eye problems. Anyway, it is a great arragement. If she does not turn up, I cut her money (which is not much)and not a squeak from her. Everybody is happy and I screw around during the week.

However, I realise that I am lucky and that not everybody is able to be as detached as this. Some remained sold on marriage, etc. In that case .. cut, cut cut. It is going to be very low quality and angst for you. But, as when I said to the guy about never giving his bird his pin no., they don't listen.

When you lose faith in humanity, it's very comforting to meet from time to time in this forum people with high moral standard.

I went back and read this closely, and would be very curious to find out exactly what specific attitudes or behaviours here you consider to be "immoral".

[chrisinth]

It seems that there is this wishful thinking straight men have, that lesbian women will return to the "right" path one day... So called "exception" are either straight women experimenting, or lesbians who fear to accept their orientation.

But how about gay men? I've never saw any debate about this one.

I thought we were talking about Tom and Dee, as in not lesbians.

So why would you want to debate gay men

the opposing subject would be ladyboys and their boyfriends, as in not gay.

Just using your answer for a question here Tommo..

If Tom and Dee are the names given to lasbians (now debatable terminology) in a relationship, what names are given to the givers and takers (no offence meant to any gays reading, it was the only thing I could think of to define at the time) in a male homosexual (is this correct?) relationship?

I always thought it was pretty exciting being a hetrosexual playing around, but now seem to think I've lead a sheltered life!

[JurgenG]

I have dealt with a similar situation. However it may not apply to your besotted friend. Although the advice in my previous post still applies - despite my resolution to not waste my time giving advice to most who don't listen - in your case. Be patient and listen to this brief story ....

I ran short courses in the 90's throughout SEAsia and played the field. Posted to Bangkok many eons ago and continued to do this. After some time I evolved a 'harem' of about 4 -6 wonderful girls who took their turns on different nights of the week - everybody was healthy, nobody stole, we could communicate and it was perfect. However, over about 2-3 years these girls, varying from middle class women to bar girls, began to marry foreign ATMs and moved off. I still see some who have returned or are back in town. ONe is 30 kilos heavier and dancing in Cowboy!!! Tragic - beautiful face and blimp body!

However, 1 woman was smarter than the rest, speks very good English and became my main squeeze - but I only want to see her on weekends which caused major suspicions and probs for her. After one year's training - 'where are you? what are you doing?', she eventually settled so successfully into this arrangement that I cannot get her during the week.

This is because she now has a tomboy. Luckily, it does not bother me because she is completely reliable in regard to me and I have tested her through illness. The tom does not bother me although I understand that the tom is worried about me. I was blind for 3 months, liquid draining from my eyes, the whole disaster and visually impaired for two years. She was there - every time (we abandoned the weekend schedule during that time). Still have significant eye problems. Anyway, it is a great arragement. If she does not turn up, I cut her money (which is not much)and not a squeak from her. Everybody is happy and I screw around during the week.

However, I realise that I am lucky and that not everybody is able to be as detached as this. Some remained sold on marriage, etc. In that case .. cut, cut cut. It is going to be very low quality and angst for you. But, as when I said to the guy about never giving his bird his pin no., they don't listen.

When you lose faith in humanity, it's very comforting to meet from time to time in this forum people with high moral standard.

I went back and read this closely, and would be very curious to find out exactly what specific attitudes or behaviours here you consider to be "immoral".

'harem' is not part of my culture.

My relation with women is on a 1 to 1 basis.

You want the respect of women, you must start by respecting them.

An other point I can't agree with "I realise that I am lucky and that not everybody is able to be as detached as this".

I try to be as involved as I can in my relations. I care about other people. Empathy, have you ever heard about that ?

Edited May 6, 2012 by JurgenG

[kerryk]

The mention of lesbians certainly encourages the straight 'experts' to impress us all with their knowledge...

What make you think any of us are straight?

Compared to some of definitions offered here almost anyone would be straight or at least want to be.

[JurgenG]

The mention of lesbians certainly encourages the straight 'experts' to impress us all with their knowledge...

What make you think any of us are straight?

Absolutely.

That's the point I try to make with a couple of lesbian cuties I know. I'm a lesbian stucked in a male body.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

'harem' is not part of my culture.

I think in defining your morality it is very important to separate out cultural mores from right and wrong, isn't that the whole point to try to define universal standards?

My relation with women is on a 1 to 1 basis.

And of course that's your choice, doesn't make other arrangements "immoral".

Another point I can't agree with "I realise that I am lucky and that not everybody is able to be as detached as this".

I try to be as involved as I can in my relations. I care about other people. Empathy, have you ever heard about that ?

Do you think sex without love is immoral? Really?

Of course it's great when they coincide, and you as an individual may decide for yourself that you won't have sex with anyone unless you have emotional attachment to them.

But I honestly can't conceive how you can translate this to some sort of mandate that everyone breaking this rule somehow becomes "bad" in your eyes.

You want the respect of women, you must start by respecting them.

If I pay someone for a service rendered, how is that showing a lack of respect?

A woman paying a man for sex is denigrating him?

I think you are the one disrespecting sex workers by automatically presuming them to somehow be victims, as being incapable of making reasoned choices for themselves.

[Baerboxer]

I think that 90% of Thai women have a relationship with a Tom at some stage in their life, and then move on to a boyfriend/husband, but it is very difficult to convince the Tom that the relationship is over. Too many male hormones I think.

Based on what research do you make this proposition?

[pxlgirl]

There's a huge industry in the US of "counselling" practices and "boot camp" style boarding schools where gay men whose parents refuse to accept their orientation send them for heinous brainwashing practices and physical abuse to try to "reverse" it. The husband of one of the Republican presidential candidates was in that business. Kids have few rights v/v their parents in many jurisdictions in the states, especially the religious-right conservative areas. Human rights organisations have started exposing the worst practices, but change is slow in coming. . .

Oh yeah, those mostly religious ex-gay crap... But I was referring to more the general stereotype average men in this case have of a lesbian woman. It seems that they assume women to be more flexible, while men get the big spanks.

However, back to the whole ladyboy/toms thing. It seems that both groups are using certain gender roles in disguise, so that they can accept their homosexuality (and hope for others to do so too). Actually it's sad that they have to be someone else in order to live their life. But I don't think it's something that can never change in the future.