Manchester United

[ThaiPauly]

A poll on Sky Sports asks "is the current Barcelona team the best footballing team EVER?"

73% confirmed

No team in the world could have lived with Barcelona last night, but as SAF said , teams are cyclical, he probably had the best team in the world in '99, and sure as eggs are eggs in 10 years time another team will be the best in the world, maybe United, City, FC Porto ,....or AFC Wimbledon....we'll have to wait and see.

Its what makes our special game so speacial..the not having a clue just hope:D

don't agree with that pauly, united weren't even the best team in the 99 champions league final. united have never been the best in the world in their particular eras. . . .madrid, bayern, ajax, liverpool, milan have all had obvious periods of dominance, now barca have too. ferguson, for all his domestic dominance, has largely disappointed on the biggest stage throughout his career.

Fair enough Steve I accept some of what you say, but it was '99 that United won the treble, and I stick to my guns that in that year they were (and proved to be) virtually unbeatable

[carmine]

A poll on Sky Sports asks "is the current Barcelona team the best footballing team EVER?"

73% confirmed

No team in the world could have lived with Barcelona last night, but as SAF said , teams are cyclical, he probably had the best team in the world in '99, and sure as eggs are eggs in 10 years time another team will be the best in the world, maybe United, City, FC Porto ,....or AFC Wimbledon....we'll have to wait and see.

Its what makes our special game so speacial..the not having a clue just hope:D

don't agree with that pauly, united weren't even the best team in the 99 champions league final. united have never been the best in the world in their particular eras. . . .madrid, bayern, ajax, liverpool, milan have all had obvious periods of dominance, now barca have too. ferguson, for all his domestic dominance, has largely disappointed on the biggest stage throughout his career.

I would'nt call four CL finals, winning two of them "disappointed". He also won european silverware with Aberdeen did'nt he? I would also add that he lost finals, beaten by possibly the best team of the modern era.

I think you and judging him with your Liverpool hat on mate.

[StevieH]

I would'nt call four CL finals, winning two of them "disappointed". He also won european silverware with Aberdeen did'nt he? I would also add that he lost finals, beaten by possibly the best team of the modern era.

I think you and judging him with your Liverpool hat on mate.

honestly carmine, i'm not on the wind-up and i'm not trying to get a rise out of the united fans. i just think, for all his amazing domestic achievements, his european record is pretty poor all in all. he's taken united to four finals and they've been pretty comfortably the poorer side in all four of them. bayern and chelsea both hit the woodwork twice in those finals before united won them and both sides outplayed united.

[carmine]

I would'nt call four CL finals, winning two of them "disappointed". He also won european silverware with Aberdeen did'nt he? I would also add that he lost finals, beaten by possibly the best team of the modern era.

I think you and judging him with your Liverpool hat on mate.

honestly carmine, i'm not on the wind-up and i'm not trying to get a rise out of the united fans. i just think, for all his amazing domestic achievements, his european record is pretty poor all in all. he's taken united to four finals and they've been pretty comfortably the poorer side in all four of them. bayern and chelsea both hit the woodwork twice in those finals before united won them and both sides outplayed united.

Thats an interesting viewpoint and worth discussion. I'd like to hear what the Utd regulars on here think but its as eerily quiet on here as the Arsenal thread.

[Abrak]

A poll on Sky Sports asks "is the current Barcelona team the best footballing team EVER?"

73% confirmed

No team in the world could have lived with Barcelona last night, but as SAF said , teams are cyclical, he probably had the best team in the world in '99, and sure as eggs are eggs in 10 years time another team will be the best in the world, maybe United, City, FC Porto ,....or AFC Wimbledon....we'll have to wait and see.

Its what makes our special game so speacial..the not having a clue just hope:D

I am not so sure.

As football becomes increasingly dominated by the economics of the game it becomes increasingly predictable - no top 6 team has come greater than 2 positions away from its position in the wage league for at least 5 years. Then as FFP sets in, it will mean that a clubs ability to pay wages will be determined entirely by its revenue base so that a club like AFC Wimbledon will no longer be able to suddenly pay the highest wages in the league and of course City and Chelsea will find it difficult to outspend Man U.

So it is hardly surprising that we find the 'best' teams in the world - Real Madrid and Barcelona - are also the richest in terms of revenues and have the highest wages. And it is not surprising to see that the EPL clubs are the ones that are closest to them. Whether much is going to change those dynamics over the next 10 years, I very much doubt.

[carmine]

A poll on Sky Sports asks "is the current Barcelona team the best footballing team EVER?"

73% confirmed

No team in the world could have lived with Barcelona last night, but as SAF said , teams are cyclical, he probably had the best team in the world in '99, and sure as eggs are eggs in 10 years time another team will be the best in the world, maybe United, City, FC Porto ,....or AFC Wimbledon....we'll have to wait and see.

Its what makes our special game so speacial..the not having a clue just hope:D

I am not so sure.

As football becomes increasingly dominated by the economics of the game it becomes increasingly predictable - no top 6 team has come greater than 2 positions away from its position in the wage league for at least 5 years. Then as FFP sets in, it will mean that a clubs ability to pay wages will be determined entirely by its revenue base so that a club like AFC Wimbledon will no longer be able to suddenly pay the highest wages in the league and of course City and Chelsea will find it difficult to outspend Man U.

So it is hardly surprising that we find the 'best' teams in the world - Real Madrid and Barcelona - are also the richest in terms of revenues and have the highest wages. And it is not surprising to see that the EPL clubs are the ones that are closest to them. Whether much is going to change those dynamics over the next 10 years, I very much doubt.

It might change if football was regulated properly and clubs were'nt allowed to live and operate in the fantasy world that most of them do.

Edited May 30, 2011 by carmine

[Abrak]

The problem with the CL is that it is largely a knockout championship. A league really does sort out who is the best team while there is a bit of 'luck' or 'who is the best on the night' about the CL.

For instance there really is nothing to imply that Barcelona's 'awe inspiring' performance against Man U was a reflection of the relative quality of both teams. Barcelona totally dominated the match - possession 68%, goal attempts 22-4, on target 12-1, top passer Xavi 148 (95%), ManU Ferdinand 47 (85%). But it was one match.

If we look at Barcelona's league form it is nothing spectacular. They scored 96 points and dominated the league but they still got beaten twice and had over half a dozen draws. Their domination was roughly the same as Chelsea in 2004/5 when they won the league in the UK with 95 points (and the EPL is arguably a better league). There is nothing in their league performance that should indicate that Man U, who topped the EPL, should be totally overwhelmed by them. (In such a manner, shall we say, that no other team would have stood a chance.) We can obviously conclude that 'on the night' Barcelona were exceptional or 'on the night' Man U were rather pathetic but there you go.

As an example if you take the top 2 teams from the EPL - Man U and Chelsea - and work out how they have performed against the bottom 6 clubs in the premiership and do the same for Barcelona and Real Madrid, you will find that Man U and Chelsea have scored more points, more goals and have a greater goal difference than the top 2 Spanish teams. So for the best Spanish teams to be 'significantly' better than the best EPL teams, it would also have to means that the entire spanish league was better than the entire premiership. And I simply dont think that is the case. A fact that is also brought out by the UEFA rankings.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Abrak

[StevieH]

The problem with the CL is that it is largely a knockout championship. A league really does sort out who is the best team while there is a bit of 'luck' or 'who is the best on the night' about the CL.

For instance there really is nothing to imply that Barcelona's 'awe inspiring' performance against Man U was a reflection of the relative quality of both teams. Barcelona totally dominated the match - possession 68%, goal attempts 22-4, on target 12-1, top passer Xavi 148 (95%), ManU Ferdinand 47 (85%). But it was one match.

If we look at Barcelona's league form it is nothing spectacular. They scored 96 points and dominated the league but they still got beaten twice and had over half a dozen draws. Their domination was roughly the same as Chelsea in 2004/5 when they won the league in the UK with 95 points (and the EPL is arguably a better league). There is nothing in their league performance that should indicate that Man U, who topped the EPL, should be totally overwhelmed by them. (In such a manner, shall we say, that no other team would have stood a chance.) We can obviously conclude that 'on the night' Barcelona were exceptional or 'on the night' Man U were rather pathetic but there you go.

As an example if you take the top 2 teams from the EPL - Man U and Chelsea - and work out how they have performed against the bottom 6 clubs in the premiership and do the same for Barcelona and Real Madrid, you will find that Man U and Chelsea have scored more points, more goals and have a greater goal difference than the top 2 Spanish teams. So for the best Spanish teams to be 'significantly' better than the best EPL teams, it would also have to means that the entire spanish league was better than the entire premiership. And I simply dont think that is the case. A fact that is also brought out by the UEFA rankings.

96 and 95 points are fantastic totals to win top flight league titles with. don't as a rule need anywhere near that.

don't really see what the performance against the bottom six of their respective divisions is supposed to prove to be honest, it's specious logic at best. . . .purely hypothetical. and speaking of that i hypothesise that if you took the present barcelona and real madrid squads and played them in next season's english premier league they would finish first and second pretty comfortably.

[RedFxTrade]

I would'nt call four CL finals, winning two of them "disappointed". He also won european silverware with Aberdeen did'nt he? I would also add that he lost finals, beaten by possibly the best team of the modern era.

I think you and judging him with your Liverpool hat on mate.

honestly carmine, i'm not on the wind-up and i'm not trying to get a rise out of the united fans. i just think, for all his amazing domestic achievements, his european record is pretty poor all in all. he's taken united to four finals and they've been pretty comfortably the poorer side in all four of them. bayern and chelsea both hit the woodwork twice in those finals before united won them and both sides outplayed united.

Thats an interesting viewpoint and worth discussion. I'd like to hear what the Utd regulars on here think but its as eerily quiet on here as the Arsenal thread.

I ll try and offer a balanced view on this as an Arsenal fan, without any coloured glasses on. To be honest the only good way to look at Arsenals season is through rose tinted glasses,haha...but back to the point on Fergusons record being poor.

Perhaps UTD were not the best team in the finals, but they certainly had to play well in all the previous rounds to get them to the final. OK, the Bayern final was fortunate, the Chelsea/UTD final could have went either way in my opinion, and the two against Barca were very one sided. But as much as UTD were perhaps lucky against Bayern, one could say they were slightly unlucky against Barca in the first final they played. UTD could have had a penalty and should have been one up and Barca down to 10 men...the game changed after that.

So overall, perhaps UTD have not been the best team in the finals, but they had to get their to earn the right to "play bad and win"...However, with this Barcelona team there is never going to be a play bad and win. They are too good. UTD would needed to have played beyond their best form to have beat Barca the other night. They are a wonderful side. They have the midfield that has just won the world cup, and a good part of the defense also. Xavi is now recognised as the best Spanish player of all time, but add to that Iniesta, who is also possibly one of the best players in Spanish history. They are both superb, amazing feet, awareness, instinctual intelligence....then add in Messi, Alves and all the rest. Simply the best team...You can say it is a one off game and that, but it was the manner of the way they won. And not only UTD but Arsenal. They completely and utterly ran both teams ragged.

Overall Ferguson has reached 4 finals which is more than 99% of managers. He has won two, but perhaps were not the best team in any of them. In two of them, they played the best team I think we have seen, so the chances of being the best team in two of those finals against Barca was beyond any team. However, UTD has to beat a lot of teams along the way to get to the final. UTd crusied pass everyone on the way to this years final...so Ferguson has a good record in the CL. If he does not then I would not want to see a bad record.

Over the years I have went from hating Ferguson as a teenager Arsenal supporter, to grudging respect, to learn never to write him off, to these days total respect. He is funny as hell also.

Anyway, check out the picture attached of the Champion League table points since the CL began...see who is top?Champions League stats

UTD have been in it more years and have more points. I still think Barca are the best team overall, ever, and Barca in the next few years could well move above UTD to take top place. Arsenal are in 6th which shows they are a top team in Europe as we have less years than the teams above us,,,so I think in the coming years Arsenal could move up the table some more.

[carmine]

Good post mate. i too agree that its too hard to just Utd on the strength of play in the finals but that said i agree the performances were not great.

As you say though, they have proven to be very consistent overall, even if, at no particular time, being the best.

[Abrak]

You really have to give 2008 to Man U. They may not have been the best team in the final but they still won. More to the point they beat Chelsea in the league over 38 games against 19 other teams both home and away.

As for Arsenal they stand out as having a big ZERO in the winners line.

[MrRed]

Is this the United in decline thread?

Typical bindippers response from you Stevieh.......but of course you are still bitter from 19 eh?

Enjoyed the final the best team won and totally deserved it,like i deserved pickin up my consolation prize at the bookies

Great season for United

[carmine]

Is this the United in decline thread?

Typical bindippers response from you Stevieh.......but of course you are still bitter from 19 eh?

Enjoyed the final the best team won and totally deserved it,like i deserved pickin up my consolation prize at the bookies

Great season for United

Too right Red, it was a great season for Utd and one of Fergusons finest IMO.

No shame whatsoever in losing the final...everyone else would have! Is it only your goodself and Rix that have stopped sulking?

[StevieH]

Is this the United in decline thread?

Typical bindippers response from you Stevieh.......but of course you are still bitter from 19 eh?

Enjoyed the final the best team won and totally deserved it,like i deserved pickin up my consolation prize at the bookies

Great season for United

not in the least really, as you should have noticed from the 'i'm not on the wind-up and i'm not trying to get a rise out of the united fans' comment and me even giving praise to your hateful old wretch of a manager.

good turnout for the celebratory parade yesterday by the way. literally dozens braved the rain. though in fairness it was a bank holiday so the trains up from dorset and surrey were probably reduced.

[carmine]

Where are all the Yanited fans? Get over it. I know the idea was never to support a losing team but Barca really are rather good.

Any news on the Modric tap up yet?

[carmine]

I've just commissioned Jim Bergerac to find this lot.

[Abrak]

Where are all the Yanited fans? Get over it. I know the idea was never to support a losing team but Barca really are rather good.

Any news on the Modric tap up yet?

Well yesterday's news was that you were underpaying the poor fellow at Spurs and todays news (via the Mirror!!) is that you practically want to give him away for 20-25m (while holding out for 50m for the flashy simian)

[SantiSuk]

I would'nt call four CL finals, winning two of them "disappointed". He also won european silverware with Aberdeen did'nt he? I would also add that he lost finals, beaten by possibly the best team of the modern era.

I think you and judging him with your Liverpool hat on mate.

honestly carmine, i'm not on the wind-up and i'm not trying to get a rise out of the united fans. i just think, for all his amazing domestic achievements, his european record is pretty poor all in all. he's taken united to four finals and they've been pretty comfortably the poorer side in all four of them. bayern and chelsea both hit the woodwork twice in those finals before united won them and both sides outplayed united.

Thats an interesting viewpoint and worth discussion. I'd like to hear what the Utd regulars on here think but its as eerily quiet on here as the Arsenal thread.

There's sod all to talk about Arsenal, so not surprising there's not much action on the thread. Don't forget we stopped playing a couple of months before you guys so we are well into our sleepy season

Edited May 31, 2011 by SantiSuk

[StevieH]

Where are all the Yanited fans? Get over it. I know the idea was never to support a losing team but Barca really are rather good.

Any news on the Modric tap up yet?

i think the forum could perhaps do with a catchall close season thread which discusses general transfer rumours, comings and goings etc.

[carmine]

Where are all the Yanited fans? Get over it. I know the idea was never to support a losing team but Barca really are rather good.

Any news on the Modric tap up yet?

i think the forum could perhaps do with a catchall close season thread which discusses general transfer rumours, comings and goings etc.

Good idea that

I'll leave the official opening and naming of the thread to you.

[Jockstar]

Berbatov future in real doubt

May 30, 2011

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By ESPNsoccernet staff

Dimitar Berbatov appears likely to quit Manchester United after his exclusion from the Champions League final squad.

GettyImages

Dimitar Berbatov appears likely to leave Manchester United this summer

• Fergie: Berba didn't storm out

• Jolly: Barca cruelly end era

Berbatov, 30, was the joint leading scorer in the Premier League this season but found himself increasingly marginalised as Wayne Rooney and Javier Hernandez became established as Sir Alex Ferguson's chosen strike partnership.

Ferguson surprisingly opted for Michael Owen, whose contract expires this summer, on the bench in place of Berbatov for Saturday's 3-1 defeat to Barcelona at Wembley, and it was suggested the Bulgarian had refused to remain at the stadium as a result. However, his agent, Emil Danchev, said: "It's nonsense. Mitko [berbatov] was at Wembley and watched the game. There is nothing to say. Let us take a few days."

Even so, it appears his days at the club may be numbered. The Sun and The Daily Star are now claiming that Berbatov has already made up his mind to leave, while the Daily Mirror moots a potential swap deal with Tottenham's Luka Modric.

The Independent notes that, while Manchester United have an option to extend Berbatov's deal by a year, they are in no rush to do so, while The Times adds that he "could hardly have had a more bleak indication about his future prospects than being overlooked in favour of Owen, who has started one league match all season".

Despite the suggestions that Berbatov has played his last game for the club, team-mate Nani has urged Ferguson to retain the forward as he sets about renewing his squad for next season.

"He has scored a lot of goals, and I would like him to play for Manchester again next season," Nani said. "I don't know which players will be coming in, but most important is that the ones who stay fight for us."

Berbatov was present at United's open-top bus tour on Monday to celebrate their Premier League success.

Meanwhile, The Times says Ferguson, 69, has pledged to stay on a further three years as he seeks to add to United's Champions League tally and establish the club among the all-time European elite.

"The Scot, who came close to retiring at 60, has indicated to the board that he could stay on beyond his 72nd birthday and break the late Sir Bobby Robson's record as the oldest manager since the Premier League began," the paper reports.

"Ferguson had maintained that he would not emulate Robson by managing beyond his 70th birthday this year and has often intimated that he could make a sudden decision to step down at the end of a season. But his latest discussions with the United hierarchy have led to the belief that retirement has never been farther from his mind."

[redrus]

Sorry people, I didn't realise my absence would cause such uproar....

Yes, beaten by a better side, outclassed and outplayed.

Berba does need to go, while we can still get a penny or two for him. We need a goalkeeper, De Gea seems to be the chosen one, Stenkellenburg is another on the lips. Wesley Schnieder is the man in the midfield that must be acquired, he likes United and has expressed a desire to play for us.......... Ashley Young and Jack Rodwell are the way forward too. taht should see us right, seriously....!!

redrus

[RedFxTrade]

Sorry people, I didn't realise my absence would cause such uproar....

Yes, beaten by a better side, outclassed and outplayed.

Berba does need to go, while we can still get a penny or two for him. We need a goalkeeper, De Gea seems to be the chosen one, Stenkellenburg is another on the lips. Wesley Schnieder is the man in the midfield that must be acquired, he likes United and has expressed a desire to play for us.......... Ashley Young and Jack Rodwell are the way forward too. taht should see us right, seriously....!!

redrus

I knew there was more to the Berbatov situation when Ferguson was interviewed before the game....Ferguson said due to UEFA substitution rules. But Berbatov was the top scorer for UTD and it seems almost incredulous that he would opt for Owen over Berbatov. Cannot quite understand his thinking around Berbatov, he was flying earlier in the season then was just dropped...I think he will be a bad player to lose for UTD at a crucial time...Scholes (just seeing Scholes has officially retired), Giggs, Owen on way out, Van Der Saar retired. If Berbatov leaves then you could see that Ferguson will need to buy 4-5 players just to get the team back to the stage it is at. As for improving the team, another couple of players. Berbatov, Scholes are play makers, who now will be UTD play makers, the center of their creativity with the type of football UTD like to play. Fletcher, Carrick,,,hardly playmakers....Even if Ferguson signs a couple of players he is really only replacing whats there without actually expanding the squad.

[mrtoad]

Well some of us have to work - hence the reason that I have not posted.

No complaints about the result, the better team won - simple as that.

Will be interesting to see how Ferguson reshapes the squad this year - I'd certainly like to see Sneidjer come in. Ashley Young would also be a decent addition, and as Redrus has mentioned Rodwell looks a very promising player. Keeper wise it looks like De Gea will be arriving. Maybe we will see Berbatov go back to Spurs, and get Modric.

I expect to see Owen stay, for another year. Can't see Nani being offloaded either.

Anyway, only two and half months before the season starts once again.

[rixalex]

I would'nt call four CL finals, winning two of them "disappointed". He also won european silverware with Aberdeen did'nt he? I would also add that he lost finals, beaten by possibly the best team of the modern era.

I think you and judging him with your Liverpool hat on mate.

honestly carmine, i'm not on the wind-up and i'm not trying to get a rise out of the united fans. i just think, for all his amazing domestic achievements, his european record is pretty poor all in all. he's taken united to four finals and they've been pretty comfortably the poorer side in all four of them. bayern and chelsea both hit the woodwork twice in those finals before united won them and both sides outplayed united.

"Pretty poor" i think might be over-stating it. I'd go as far as "could have been better", but knock out competitions are a funny old business, as you know, and not always the best barometer of team quality, and there is an element of pot luck mixed in with skill, but skill alone will rarely get you all the way. This year, this particular Barcalona team might be the exception to that, (although no doubt Mourinho would argue otherwise), but teams like Barca's come along once in a blue moon. The gulf between them and everyone else is substantial. Great teams of the past, like the ones you mention, were great, no taking away from that, but i don't think they were quite so far ahead of the rest as is the case now. They still needed a bit of luck on their sides when playing in knock-outs.

Teams and managers of any era should be judged first and foremost on their league achievements is i guess what i'm saying.

As far as our four finals go, i think in the two we won we were very equally matched with our opposition. To say that we were outplayed is misleading as at it suggests we didn't outplay them. We did, at times.

[rixalex]

I expect to see Owen stay, for another year.

You expect correctly.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/13594839.stm

Good news i'd say. Not like we'd make anything by letting him go, and i really do think there is still a role for him.

[StevieH]

I expect to see Owen stay, for another year.

You expect correctly.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ll/13594839.stm

Good news i'd say. Not like we'd make anything by letting him go, and i really do think there is still a role for him.

as club mascot? that's effectively what he is these days. can't recall such a fall from grace as owen's career. what is it, six premier league starts in two years?

[mrtoad]

I expect to see Owen stay, for another year.

You expect correctly.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ll/13594839.stm

Good news i'd say. Not like we'd make anything by letting him go, and i really do think there is still a role for him.

as club mascot? that's effectively what he is these days. can't recall such a fall from grace as owen's career. what is it, six premier league starts in two years?

I think they are bringing out a Manchester United Garden Gnome range, and Owen is going to be the lifestyle mould for it.

[rixalex]

I expect to see Owen stay, for another year.

You expect correctly.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ll/13594839.stm

Good news i'd say. Not like we'd make anything by letting him go, and i really do think there is still a role for him.

as club mascot? that's effectively what he is these days. can't recall such a fall from grace as owen's career. what is it, six premier league starts in two years?

Forget about how many starts he's had, and consider how many times he's scored the winner against City in Fergie Time. Nuff said.

[MrRed]

I expect to see Owen stay, for another year.

You expect correctly.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ll/13594839.stm

Good news i'd say. Not like we'd make anything by letting him go, and i really do think there is still a role for him.

as club mascot? that's effectively what he is these days. can't recall such a fall from grace as owen's career. what is it, six premier league starts in two years?

Club Mascot with more premier league titles then any of your <deleted>,indeed lets keep him just to annoy the bindippers