Canadian Sisters Died Of 'Food Poisoning' In Thailand Hotel

[Asiantravel]

All the needless speculation, coverup theories and other cynical nonsense here on this and the previous thread make me so very sad for the people here on TV.

Time will show that either the posters on TV are a sad lot , or possess astute powers of deduction......

It's pretty well known that any search of these types of events in Thailand will come up with a ThaiVisa thread on the matter. Aside from a few inappropriate comments some idiots make I like to think for distraught relatives with no clue as to what has happened these threads can sometimes be of service. If they take nothing onboard other than DO NOT TAKE ANYTHING THE THAI AUTHORITIES TELL YOU AT FACE VALUE then the thread will have served some purpose.

we should know this here in Pattaya just by the sheer number of so called " suicides " that happen here

[Cnxforever]

Serious food poisoning?

I would like to be directed to a web page which describes the sort of food poisoning where symptoms include blue nails and bleeding gums.

We appear to be already heading for a cover-up. Let's hope the family can recover the bodies back to their home country and a competent autopsy, before the bodies are 'accidentally' cremated by the Thai authorities.

Disgraceful Thailand.

I think you are right!

This is very, very unlikely a case of Food poisoning - but it sounds good - food poisoning is kind of expected in a third world country - so it will not impact tourism to much if the police immediately manipulates opinion into this direction. Carefully placed - these words will be repeated all over the world in the press - and they already are!

One of the first symptoms of food poisoning would be a grumbling stomach and diarrhea, only later or sometimes simultaneously followed by vomiting.

This sounds very much like a very severe case of drug / chemical poisoning to me - with the first symptoms very likely vomiting as the body tries to reject the poison - this is where one usually seeks help – if one is sick from food poisoning there is usually plenty of time to do so!

If the poisoning and sickness is so severe that it is too late to get help - it is very likely that something much stronger than spoiled food is to blame!

Skin lesions, bleeding from the gums and their fingernails and toenails were blue! – Food poisoning??? Even an amateur will know that there is something much more sinister than some spoiled food at work here!

What do you think did the police in Chiang Mai spread in the press - after the first deaths had been discovered ??

Yes you guessed right!!! Food poisoning from seaweed was the direction the police pointed us to!!!

I think the family should demand that the bodies are flown back home immediately and an autopsy is carried out by objective medical experts – not in any way connected with Thailand! Or Canadian experts carrying out the autopsy in Thailand.

My thoughts are going out to the family of these poor girls – may they RIP - and you have the strenght to get through this!

[samsiam]

and relatives reading this from overseas might now understand to not take what is said by thai police investigations as gospel and truthful.....not same same police back home.....and perhaps push for more.

[FOODLOVER]

Botulism, which is a food borne illness has similar symptoms. Can hit you quickly if large amounts of the contaminant are ingested skipping the usual onset symptoms jumping straight to vomiting and paralysis.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Botulism/Pages/Introduction.aspx

Condolences to the family.

[Soutpeel]

Even if the two ladies had tetrodotoxin poisoning from fugu, they would have got severe physical symptoms within 5-30 minutes (during the meal) and not made it back to the hotel unnoticed. Nothing about the 'food poisoning' statement makes sense.

What are the symptoms of pufferfish poisoning?

Symptoms generally appear between 20 minutes and three hours after eating the poisonous pufferfish. The following are the most common symptoms of pufferfish poisoning. However, each individual may experience symptoms differently. Symptoms may include:

Numbness of lips and tongue

Numbness of face and extremities

Sensations of lightness or floatingHeadache

Nausea and vomiting

Abdominal pain

Diarrhea

Slurred speech

Difficulty walking

Extensive muscle weakness

Convulsions

Respiratory distress

Mental impairment

Cardiac arrhythmia

Death can occur within four to six hours of poisoning, so it is essential to seek immediate medical attention.

Source: http://www.hopkinsme...ning_85,P01434/

Thailand

Pufferfish, called pakpao in Thailand, are usually consumed by mistake. They are often cheaper than other fish, and because they contain inconsistent levels of toxins between fish and season, there is little awareness or monitoring of the danger. Consumers are regularly hospitalized and some even die from the poisoning.

Source: http://en.wikipedia..../Tetraodontidae

But does this posion cause cyanosis ?....dont think it does....something like cynanide does..

[Skywalker69]

and relatives reading this from overseas might now understand to not take what is said by thai police investigations as gospel and truthful.....not same same police back home.....and perhaps push for more.

Lets hope you´r right.

[cdmtdm]

i hope the canadian govt do the right thing and initiate a travel ban to thailand until this case is investigated by an independent authority (non thai) , what amazes me is no one of any govt hierachy gives a shit .... i am beginning to understand how it felt to be black during the apartheid years in SA ...this is a national shame if your a Thai hang your head in shame until this is resolved .....disgusting ...RIP ladies ....

[dingdang]

we don't know, when they died. reportedly, the police found a lot of vomit in the room.

it is understandable to vomit the first time into the room when it happened all too quickly, but then one might likely just stay in the bathroom, when feeling that sick...

when the room was full of vomit, it could be a sign of a prolonged sickness, where they got weaker and weaker...

one gets very exhausted and wishes nothing more than sleep. but this doesn't work, and with increasing weakness one might vomit just everywhere, where they got to lie down during the ordeal...

it doesn't sound as if they died quickly...

Edited June 17, 2012 by dingdang

[Deaw]

and relatives reading this from overseas might now understand to not take what is said by thai police investigations as gospel and truthful.....not same same police back home.....and perhaps push for more.

I googled the small town where these young ladies come from, because my daughter is a student at Concordia Uni in Montreal.......it's about 6 hours northeast of there, a very small town near the most northernmost US border called Pohenegamook, Quebec. Very likely a first nations settlement from years ago, and also most likely a Barney Fife-type police department with a handful of ill-trained cops at most.

What I am saying is they won't be getting any answers from them. The family needs the people in Ottawa to get involved, like RIGHT NOW, and maybe have a forensic specialist or 2 from Montreal or Ottawa fly out there like yesterday to accompany the body back.

As I said when this story initially broke yesterday, I have had my daughter here twice on vacations but she never left my side.....now 19, if something like this had happened to her [God forbid] I'd be all over it like white on rice.....the longer the family delays and doesn't get big city and embassy officials involved the less likely they are to get the truth behind this mess.

RIP to what appears to be 2 lovely girls just trying to have a vacation in a beautiful place.....and seriously, what does it take for TWO young people to die at about the same time and not be able to even summon help???

Edited June 17, 2012 by Deaw

[Deaw]

when the room was full of vomit, it could be a sign of a prolonged sickness, where they got weaker and weaker...

one gets very exhausted and wishes nothing more than sleep. but this doesn't work, and with increasing weakness one might vomit just everywhere, where they got to lie down during the ordeal...

Understood, but even at my advanced age of 49 it seems I could at least be able to struggle to the front door and open it and fall out, to where *someone* would see me and help....these kids were half my age, surely they would have had the strength?

I got bad food poisoning last month, ate an under-cooked hot dog from the Family Mart.........felt like warmed-over death 3 hours later and for about 5 days afterwards......sure, that was maybe a fraction of what these poor girls experienced with whatever poisoned them, but at no point did I not have at least enough strength to get some help if I needed it.

This was some strong stuff, much more than just bad food, and it just hit them like a ton of bricks.

Again TWO girls at once - amazing Thailand.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Deaw

[smedly]

were the ladies alone when they returned their room, did someone or persons follow them to their hotel invited, something really stinks about this whole thing and as usual the reports from the press and police reveal nothing but questions and inconsistancies

I am sorry for the above speculation but tbh at this time I'd prefer to think that nothing so far released to the press is remotely accurate and could be so far from the truth - why just these two girls ???????

right now I am sadened and angry that this is all happening again and two you girls have lost their lives

[Yunla]

Symptoms generally appear between 20 minutes and three hours after eating the poisonous pufferfish. The following are the most common symptoms of pufferfish poisoning. However, each individual may experience symptoms differently. Symptoms may include:

I used this site for my quote. "There is a rapid onset of symptoms (5-30 minutes)."

http://yyy.rsmas.mia...cience/fugu.htm

In addition you will note that they say the more rapid the onset of symptoms the more serious the outcome which makes sense in all other types of poisoning too. This would mean your quote from wiki, of 20 mins to 3 hours would indicate milder poisoning and therefor less chance of two healthy young women dying from it and being somehow able to make it out of the restaurant and get home but then suddenly unable to press the "maid" button on the telephone or open the door from floor level. If they had fugu poisoning and it was severe enough to kill them they would have got symptoms quickly as this how poisons work, strong effect quickly and vice versa.

This was all in passing, I totally don't think it was fugu or another food poisoning. If it were botulism etc. there would be outbreak at the restaurant with more fatalities and hospital admissions.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Yunla

[Deaw]

Symptoms generally appear between 20 minutes and three hours after eating the poisonous pufferfish. The following are the most common symptoms of pufferfish poisoning. However, each individual may experience symptoms differently. Symptoms may include:

I used this site for my quote. "There is a rapid onset of symptoms (5-30 minutes)."

http://yyy.rsmas.mia...cience/fugu.htm

In addition you will note that they say the more rapid the onset of symptoms the more serious the outcome which makes sense in all other types of poisoning too. This would mean your quote from wiki, of 20 mins to 3 hours would indicate milder poisoning and therefor less chance of two healthy young women dying from it and being somehow able to make it out of the restaurant and get home but then suddenly unable to press the "maid" button on the telephone or open the door from floor level. If they had fugu poisoning and it was severe enough to kill them they would have got symptoms quickly as this how poisons work, strong effect quickly and vice versa.

This was all in passing, I totally don't think it was fugu or another food poisoning. If it were botulism etc. there would be outbreak at the restaurant with more fatalities and hospital admissions.

This seems to be the best explanation yet.......Lord knows we have all eaten fish while in the south, I know I have ........they may have just been unfortunate enough to have eaten the wrong fish at the wrong time of the year??

I don't think anyone believes they were murdered......suspicions of having some GHB or similar drug slipped to them in a bar seems pretty unlikely also, but you never know; and in any case people rarely die from that.

We are all casting suspicion on the police, and they do have a shady way of covering things up over here......but could it have been something so simple as eating some bad fish out of season? But if so, why not more deaths? Surely more people [including some locals] would have eaten the same batch.

The mystery deepens, with the only real witnesses unable to speak for themselves.....so sad

[canuckamuck]

and relatives reading this from overseas might now understand to not take what is said by thai police investigations as gospel and truthful.....not same same police back home.....and perhaps push for more.

I googled the small town where these young ladies come from, because my daughter is a student at Concordia Uni in Montreal.......it's about 6 hours northeast of there, a very small town near the most northernmost US border called Pohenegamook, Quebec. Very likely a first nations settlement from years ago, and also most likely a Barney Fife-type police department with a handful of ill-trained cops at most.

What I am saying is they won't be getting any answers from them. The family needs the people in Ottawa to get involved, like RIGHT NOW, and maybe have a forensic specialist or 2 from Montreal or Ottawa fly out there like yesterday to accompany the body back.

As I said when this story initially broke yesterday, I have had my daughter here twice on vacations but she never left my side.....now 19, if something like this had happened to her [God forbid] I'd be all over it like white on rice.....the longer the family delays and doesn't get big city and embassy officials involved the less likely they are to get the truth behind this mess.

RIP to what appears to be 2 lovely girls just trying to have a vacation in a beautiful place.....and seriously, what does it take for TWO young people to die at about the same time and not be able to even summon help???

Likely it would be the provincial police force the or the RCMP/GRC. We don't have Barney Fife police forces in Canada that is an uniquely American oddity.

But the police aren't what is needed. Medical forensics will uncover the answer if it is poisoning.

[PoorSucker]

Even if the two ladies had tetrodotoxin poisoning from fugu, they would have got severe physical symptoms within 5-30 minutes (during the meal) and not made it back to the hotel unnoticed. Nothing about the 'food poisoning' statement makes sense.

What are the symptoms of pufferfish poisoning?

Symptoms generally appear between 20 minutes and three hours after eating the poisonous pufferfish. The following are the most common symptoms of pufferfish poisoning. However, each individual may experience symptoms differently. Symptoms may include:

Numbness of lips and tongue

Numbness of face and extremities

Sensations of lightness or floatingHeadache

Nausea and vomiting

Abdominal pain

Diarrhea

Slurred speech

Difficulty walking

Extensive muscle weakness

Convulsions

Respiratory distress

Mental impairment

Cardiac arrhythmia

Death can occur within four to six hours of poisoning, so it is essential to seek immediate medical attention.

Source: http://www.hopkinsme...ning_85,P01434/

Thailand

Pufferfish, called pakpao in Thailand, are usually consumed by mistake. They are often cheaper than other fish, and because they contain inconsistent levels of toxins between fish and season, there is little awareness or monitoring of the danger. Consumers are regularly hospitalized and some even die from the poisoning.

Source: http://en.wikipedia..../Tetraodontidae

But does this posion cause cyanosis ?....dont think it does....something like cynanide does..

Respiratory distress is one of the symtoms.

[RickBradford]

I hope this tragedy is properly investigated, so as to prevent any recurrences, and maybe some small comfort to the family and friends of these 2 unfortunate women.

The symptoms seem consistent with an anticoagulant rodenticide.

[cougar52]

This is absolute BS that the Thai Police are already telling everyone that this is food poisoning without the benefit of an autopsy . What the hell is the rush, an autopsy can clarify things, it only takes an extra couple of days instead "Barny Fife" has already muddy the waters. What is it about Thai Police and Politicians that always want to spout out unrealistic BS.

[Misterwhisper]

For what it's worth, this almost reminds of the circumstances leading to the deaths of 3 foreign tourists and 1 local tour guide at a Chiang Mai hotel in January/February last year. Immediate reaction by the police? "Food poisoining by eating contaminated seaweed", of course, and they all ate at some obscure restaurant outside the hotel, of course, i.e. the hotel had absolutely nothing to do with it. Took some embarrassing report by a NZ television team who had secretly taken samples from the respective hotel and had these analyzed back home with the result that they contained traces of a nasty pestizide. "Independent" toxicology tests here in Thailand took a 'comittee' a full 6 months to complete with the result - wait for it! - that the most likely cause of death of those unfortunate people could well have been due to exposure to a pestizide!

That supposed restaurant where 'poisonous seaweed' was served was never identified by Chiang Mai police, surprise, surprise, nor was it ever mentioned in the comitee's final report.

In my opinion, the police once again are jumping to conclusions in this sad case and are blatantly over-protective of the hotel (who owns it?).

My honest advice for the two girls' bereaved family is to demand immediate release of their bodies and have autopsies AND toxicology tests carried out back in Canada, advising the Thai authorities through a lawyer to refrain from destroying (i.e. cremating) the bodies.

[annabel]

Serious food poisoning?

I would like to be directed to a web page which describes the sort of food poisoning where symptoms include blue nails and bleeding gums.

We appear to be already heading for a cover-up. Let's hope the family can recover the bodies back to their home country and a competent autopsy, before the bodies are 'accidentally' cremated by the Thai authorities.

Disgraceful Thailand.

Totally agree with all you say

Reading between the lines as we here are always forced to do to get even an idiom of the truth.. A cover up already seems to be well on the way.

Poor Girls, R.I.P. Condolences to family and friends.

Poor girls for sure..... and I feel so much for the parents... how horrible... I am also a French Quebequer from Canada and yup , it gets to me even more ... Eeeesshhhh!!

[TheCure]

I hope this tragedy is properly investigated, so as to prevent any recurrences, and maybe some small comfort to the family and friends of these 2 unfortunate women.

You might as well believe in the tooth fairy .

Wake up Buddy, this is Thailand.

[silsburyhill]

Pufferfish poison can quickly lead to paralysis, and I'm sure there are more poisons found in food that can have the same effect. So food poisoning can be a very reasonable explanation.

Bullshit. So you're a toxicologist too now? What about the other symptoms? And as a previous poster pointed out, is it likely they were the only two customers of any restaurant to die afterwards.

Here's a news for ya. Poisoning very prevalent in LOS. Ask your wife.

And by the way. As a lone poster pointed out on the initial thread. What, if anything, are the irrelevant embassies doing about all this? The very least would be expected is a proper, independent forensics/autopsy report on this spate of bizarre deaths.

[Deaw]

The symptoms seem consistent with an anticoagulant rodenticide.

2 questions based on the way this thread is going so far;

1} If the above is true, why haven't more guests from the hotel gotten sick and/or died?

2} If it was some bad fish out of season, same-same question; why not more deaths?

Surely others would have come into contact with the same substance which killed these young ladies by now, no?

[silsburyhill]

This is absolute BS that the Thai Police are already telling everyone that this is food poisoning without the benefit of an autopsy . What the hell is the rush, an autopsy can clarify things, it only takes an extra couple of days instead "Barny Fife" has already muddy the waters. What is it about Thai Police and Politicians that always want to spout out unrealistic BS.

I once used a 'taxi' outside Big C. The driver was making conversation and flashed his 'Forensic Police' card and told me this was his 'other job'. Seriously. You expect reliable forensics, here?

[smedly]

how do any of us know for sure that there aren't other dead or seriously ill people in Phi Phi, how do we know that they didn't get exposed to this before arriving in Phi Phi, are there other people sick that were on a flight shared with these 2 girls - there are many possibilities - don't forget they seem to have arrived Tuesday and were ill on Wed or perhaps Tues evening - questions and no answers

[EyesWideOpen]

The solution to this puzzle is very simple. The families / Canadian government must DEMAND the bodies be flown back to Canada where a full unbiased autopsy can be conducted, and the results can be believed. This would have the benefit of casting off any shadow of doubt about what happened. If Thailand refuses to release the bodies, or cremates them forcibly , then I leave you to draw your own conclusions.....

[annabel]

what is this nonsense about suicide above???

and I believe we have no worries about the family reading a forum like this, they are kinda busy right now with travel arrangements and surely have more on their mind than a website with a bunch of cackling old ladies spouting nonsensical suicide theories and about maids peaking through hotel room doors day and night.

Finally made the Canadian newspapers, at least the Gazette de Montreal;

http://www.montrealgazette.com/travel/brilliant+young+girls/6793937/story.html

The older girl just graduated with a degree in Psychology.....the 20-year old surely seemed equally bright and good-natured.......this quote sums it all up for me;

"I don’t understand if they were sick why they didn’t ask for help. They are girls who know how to look after themselves, they can speak French and English"

If it were food poisoning and their stomachs were aching, at least one of them would have had the sense to go and speak with a hotel clerk or a local clinic.....and would have gotten some treatment. to just get food poisoning, lie in your bed and then DIE that quickly? Never heard of something like that before [except in Thailand of course]..

Someone needs to get their bodies to Montreal ASAP and have a proper autopsy done, the truth is at risk every day they remain in Thailand.

You are assuming they were totally bilingual(English & French) but so many French Quebequers speak minimal English and they were both French Canadians without a doubt and not from a big city like Montreal or Quebec but from Pohénégamook, Quebec (population 2,940) which is a Canadian town on the International Boundary in Quebec's Témiscouata Regional County Municipality. This is a very small country side place and I sincerely hope that their parents can speak English otherwise it will be another nightmare ... God love them and help them through this .....

[slapout]

This is absolute BS that the Thai Police are already telling everyone that this is food poisoning without the benefit of an autopsy . What the hell is the rush, an autopsy can clarify things, it only takes an extra couple of days instead "Barny Fife" has already muddy the waters. What is it about Thai Police and Politicians that always want to spout out unrealistic BS.

I once used a 'taxi' outside Big C. The driver was making conversation and flashed his 'Forensic Police' card and told me this was his 'other job'. Seriously. You expect reliable forensics, here?

You have to remember Barmy's boss, Andy, never gave him bullets. I am afraid that the 'foot in mouth' displayed here can only be solved by cutting the tongues offt the stooges.

[Hellhound66]

Pufferfish poison can quickly lead to paralysis, and I'm sure there are more poisons found in food that can have the same effect. So food poisoning can be a very reasonable explanation.

Bullshit. So you're a toxicologist too now? What about the other symptoms? And as a previous poster pointed out, is it likely they were the only two customers of any restaurant to die afterwards.

Here's a news for ya. Poisoning very prevalent in LOS. Ask your wife.

And by the way. As a lone poster pointed out on the initial thread. What, if anything, are the irrelevant embassies doing about all this? The very least would be expected is a proper, independent forensics/autopsy report on this spate of bizarre deaths.

Let's be realistic also a couple of young backpackers are not going to be able to afford fugu. That's 50-100 USD a dish. Agree on the independent autopsy and I don't believe any country can arbitrarily cremate a foreign national without family consent unless an epidemic is involved.

[Briggsy]

A Krabi police colonel has announced the two sisters died of food poisoning.

What is the restaurant's name and location?

What did they eat?

What bacterium or fungus did they ingest?

What action has been taken to prevent further deaths?

Has the restaurant been shut down?

Of course there are no answers to these very important questions as the police colonel has just made it up and has no idea what really happened. A vague suggestion of food poisoning and a wish for the whole thing to go away as it is clearly a non-money maker is a standard response from the authorities. Sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened.

[PoorSucker]

Let's be realistic also a couple of young backpackers are not going to be able to afford fugu. That's 50-100 USD a dish. Agree on the independent autopsy and I don't believe any country can arbitrarily cremate a foreign national without family consent unless an epidemic is involved.

Thailand

Pufferfish, called pakpao in Thailand, are usually consumed by mistake. They are often cheaper than other fish, and because they contain inconsistent levels of toxins between fish and season, there is little awareness or monitoring of the danger. Consumers are regularly hospitalized and some even die from the poisoning.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraodontidae