We Know It Happens But Have You Seen It ?

[CharlieH]

Anybody that has spent time in Thailand is aware and has heard the many stories of bribery and corruption.

But has anyone actually witnessed it ?

I was astounded yesterday when visiting an official establishment and during the hour or so I was there I noticed, 1 bottle of whiskey, a net full of fruit, a large sack of rice, a case of beer, several carrier type bags with hot take out food all being handed over at different times.

These were seperate incidents in just over 1 hour, and before anyone suggests it, no they werent just doing shopping for the staff.

It was quite obvious by the manner and response of the giver and receiver that it was a "thank you" for something.

I suppose it could be argued it was everybody's birthday and they were "gifts" but I doubt that.

Anyone else seen it actually play out in front of them ?

[NewlyMintedThai]

If that's your standard of corruption/bribery, you'll see it everywhere.

In Thailand, though, gift-giving in return for doing one's job well is not considered bribery as long as it is not payment in return for either neglecting one's duties, doing something against one's duties, or giving an unfair advantage.

Very common, very accepted, and very legal.

[CharlieH]

If that's your standard of corruption/bribery, you'll see it everywhere.

In Thailand, though, gift-giving in return for doing one's job well is not considered bribery as long as it is not payment in return for either neglecting one's duties, doing something against one's duties, or giving an unfair advantage.

Very common, very accepted, and very legal.

It not my "standard" its just how I have been taught, and such things are not allowed for officials in the environment or community I lived in for 45 years in my country, so yes it would seem "different" to me and was my interpretation of events. Perhaps I am wrong but that's how I saw it.

Interesting interpretation, "for doing a good job" well as they say , you live and learn and extremely difficult to prove otherwise too I would imagine.

Edited September 19, 2012 by CharlieH

[rijb]

It's a generous society.

[Swiss1960]

very thin line between gift-giving and bribery/corruption...

[Semper]

I like gifts.

[tinfoilhat]

the policemen who regularly visit my local motorcycle guys and street vendors.

they pull up on a honda click (or reasonable facsimile thereof). One with alot of brass and a special hat on the pillion, the other a low rank motorcycle cop.

Boss gets off has something to eat while the junior officer makes the rounds.

When junior is done he gets a bag o' takeaway and away they ride.

[topt]

Land office to get usufruct put on at the same time as transfer - cannot actually remember whether I gave the envelope or the gf did

Edited September 19, 2012 by topt

[NewlyMintedThai]

very thin line between gift-giving and bribery/corruption...

It's a lot thinner in Switzerland than Thailand.

Just remember that you're not in Geneva anymore. Where I come from, numbered bank accounts used to hide assets from the tax man are considered "corruption".

[canman]

When I worked in thailand I used to approve agents invoices monthly with a line item 'Ancillary expenses'. These were payments to customs officials to enable imports and exports to proceed smoothly. We could not do business without this 'facility'.

[theslime]

OP you must be a Greenhorn, wake up and go outside.

[travelmann]

op never mentioned where this was happening and why which would make it more interesting? whats a govt establishment?

[bkkjames]

That's not a bribe, that's an incentive.

[KTD]

OP you must be a Greenhorn, wake up and go outside.

Yes in almost all countries graft / gifting / bribery / corruption are common. If you are fr north america or europe this happens on a much higher

level and general society is not exposed to it. Many other parts of the world it is apart of everyday life.

[Tep]

Gift giving is a standard and accepted practice within government agencies both among officials and from those they regulate. One of my favorite times was during the Western New Year period accompanying my boss to give fruit baskets to former colleagues and superiors now in different agencies as well as new bosses at agencies we used to work at or liaise with. Also there was the splitting of the gifts among staff.

Regulations permit gifts of value not more than 3000 baht.

Travel overseas and exchanging gifts is always an issue that needs preparation also. The Americans are difficult on this and often ask to forgo gift giving. They have a different viewpoint and more regulations I think.

Actual corruption is an entirely different matter and you probably won't get too much information on a public forum.

[Payboy]

very thin line between gift-giving and bribery/corruption...

With gifts you can at least expect a "thank you".

[NewlyMintedThai]

When I was growing up, the postman always got a tin of cookies for Christmas. Corruption?

[norrona]

I loved it, made me a fair bit of dosh and at the same time saved me going down the police station to pay a traffic offence, nothing better than walking in a jam packed place like the lands office and not having to wait to get what I needed done....

on the other hand though I witnessed and even had personal experience of people paying police to arrest/hassle/shake down either people in competition with them or ex business partners, that's when it can leave a sour taste in ones mouth...

[wayned]

I woke up one morning and found over 20000 baht in 100 baht notes in my drawer when I went to get dressed. I asked my wife what it was and she said that our friend was running for a local office and it was bribery money.. He was afraid to keep it in his own house! He paid 300 baht each to people in hopes that they would vote for him, he did win the election, I guess the other guy was a cheapskate. Unfortunately corruption and nepotism are in breed parts of Thai society.

[HardenedSoul]

Yep all the time in the after hours clubs.

One establishment on Sukhumvit soi 4, there was a copper there 2 or 3 times a week in full uniform collecting the stuffed envelope from the bar manager.

Haven't been back there for a while but, at the time, the club opened until 5am.

[NewlyMintedThai]

Yep all the time in the after hours clubs.

One establishment on Sukhumvit soi 4, there was a copper there 2 or 3 times a week in full uniform collecting the stuffed envelope from the bar manager.

Haven't been back there for a while but, at the time, the club opened until 5am.

In this scenario, both sides of the equation are corrupt. No way around that.

[Sing_Sling]

OP you must be a Greenhorn, wake up and go outside.

Yes in almost all countries graft / gifting / bribery / corruption are common. If you are fr north america or europe this happens on a much higher

level and general society is not exposed to it. Many other parts of the world it is apart of everyday life.

I hear this argument all the time and it is utter rot. Is corruption 'common' in Europe or N America? No, it is not. The association with committing a crime is there . . . in Thailand it is not. It is accepted, acknowledged, widespread and open and exists from the street vendor to the highest government offices and corporations

There is a world of difference

[JurgenG]

It not my "standard" its just how I have been taught, and such things are not allowed for officials in the environment or community I lived in for 45 years in my country.

But you're not living in your country anymore. People here speak a different language, eat different food and have a different standard.

Personally, it's what I like about traveling and living abroad, it opens your mind.

And regarding "gifts", that's something I learned from my wife. Always have a little gift for people you meet on a regular basis, the doorman of your building, the parking attendant, the waitresses at your favorite restaurant / watering hole, the employees at the bank or at your local administration office ... It's incredible how it can improve your daily life.

Edited September 19, 2012 by JurgenG

[NewlyMintedThai]

The phrase "greasing the wheel makes it turn more easily" was not invented in a society that doesn't know the benefits of a little gift.

[GuestHouse]

A colleague of mine once asked to speak to me about something private. In a closed office he asked me what he should do with 'this'.

'This' was an envelope full of money ( a lot of money) he had been given by a contractor.

I advised him to email his boss at head office to tell him what had happened and to inform his boss at HO that he was reporting the matter to his line manager in Thailand.

He was not keen on reporting back to HO lest it reflect badly on him personally.

I explained to him that he either reports the bung or takes the bung - if he reports the bung he must accept that his line manager has almost certainly been given a bung too. He then risks the dangerous situation of being an honest guy that crooks can't trust.

[transam]

A colleague of mine once asked to speak to me about something private. In a closed office he asked me what he should do with 'this'.

'This' was an envelope full of money ( a lot of money) he had been given by a contractor.

I advised him to email his boss at head office to tell him what had happened and to inform his boss at HO that he was reporting the matter to his line manager in Thailand.

He was not keen on reporting back to HO lest it reflect badly on him personally.

I explained to him that he either reports the bung or takes the bung - if he reports the bung he must accept that his line manager has almost certainly been given a bung too. He then risks the dangerous situation of being an honest guy that crooks can't trust.

Unless ALL come clean, which is a millennium away, they guy should pocket the bung.

[TommoPhysicist]

I hear this argument all the time and it is utter rot. Is corruption 'common' in Europe or N America? No, it is not. The association with committing a crime is there . . . in Thailand it is not. It is accepted, acknowledged, widespread and open and exists from the street vendor to the highest government offices and corporations

There is a world of difference

Many UK MPs thought differently when compiling their expenses.

[GuestHouse]

Many UK MPs thought differently when compiling their expenses.

For which convictions and prison time was dished out ( and time served!)

While keeping this Thailand related we can observe upto a third of all government spending going into the pockets of the corrupt who, if politicians, can be assured of never seing the inside of a prison cell.

[GuestHouse]

Unless ALL come clean, which is a millennium away, they guy should pocket the bung.

It might seem hard fir you to believe but not all arse in Thailand is for sale.

[KTD]

OP you must be a Greenhorn, wake up and go outside.

Yes in almost all countries graft / gifting / bribery / corruption are common. If you are fr north america or europe this happens on a much higher

level and general society is not exposed to it. Many other parts of the world it is apart of everyday life.

I hear this argument all the time and it is utter rot. Is corruption 'common' in Europe or N America? No, it is not. The association with committing a crime is there . . . in Thailand it is not. It is accepted, acknowledged, widespread and open and exists from the street vendor to the highest government offices and corporations

There is a world of difference

It is not? Respectfully I disagree. It is absolutely common in Europe and North America. Has there even been a president that has made it more that two years out office with out being charged with some sort of illegitimate business deal. On lower levels I agree It does not exist that is correct.

I did not say anything about how it was associated with crime, accepted or not. It is a part of most if not all societies and viewed in many different ways in many different regions. of course there is a world of difference.