Will Lose Passport

[somtommike]

Ok I have a particularly painful problem and could use some good advice. I had a extremely bad marriage which ended about 15 years ago to a lady in the US. She had a very good attorney and I ended up owing about $2,500 a month in child support and $2,000 a month in alimony. I paid off all of the child support but still have a bill in excess of $200,000 dollars towards the alimony and the interest the State of California puts on my owed money.

Currently I am paying $2,000 a month towards the bill but I am 57 and plan to retire in Thailand with myThai wife in about 3 years. So far so good but my issue is once I stop paying the alimony my passport will have a hold placed on it and after 10 years I will not be able to renew it and then I will be 67 and don't want to get kicked out of Thailand. My Thai wife doesn't think that overstay will be a big deal at age 67 but I disagree and don't want to have to look over my shoulder everytime I leave the house.

I have tried for 3 years with an attorney to get the alimony reduced or come up with a settlement of money up front but my ex always refuses and so I have run out of options.

I would like to know if there will be anyway to stay in Thailand long term after the passport runs out without always being scared of being deported or is there a way to get permanent residency in Thailand which doesn't require me to show a passport, or even a second passport from another country that is affordable.

Any suggestions gratefully appreciated.

[lopburi3]

Short answer is no as you would not qualify for citizenship or PR on retirement.

[robblok]

If you ever get into trouble you will have no way back. Also now overstay is not a big thing but who knows in 10 years. I would not risk it.

[wayned]

As far as understand it failure to pay alimony is a civil issue and not criminal. I don't think that your wife can have a hold put on your passport for non-payment, BUT, I MIGHT BE WRONG as I'm not, nor want to be a lawyer.

[beano2274]

Does the statute of limitations not take away that burden after so many years?

[darrendsd]

If you ever get into trouble you will have no way back. Also now overstay is not a big thing but who knows in 10 years. I would not risk it.

Try overstaying and see what happens if you get caught, to say overstay is not a big thing now is pretty irresponsible.

[ThaidDown]

Sure I've seen previous posts here relating to passport renewal with outstanding child support/ alimony payments but cannot remember when.

I am not a US citizen or lawyer but thought alimony and child support were treated differently as far as non payment were concerned..

ie alimony is a civil case but child support arrears are considered far more serious. In fact if child support is more than $2,500 in arrears then passport will not be renewed (see here http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppi/family/family_863.html ) Note cannot see any ref to alimony on this page.

Also as said staying in Thailand on extended overstay could have serious consequences.

[Soutpeel]

I suppose the answer to this question would need to come from your own lawyer in the US

[yoslim]

4500$ monthly payout to the ex wife and you got a new thai wife ? some people never learn

on a serious side I guess you will have to consult a lawyer or maybe try contacting us embassy in bkk

[lopburi3]

I know new passport will not be issued if there is a record of due child support but not sure there is any law current law for late alimony payments. This is the first thing checked on renewal at Embassy.

[Mario2008]

Per above, I know a US passport will not be renewed for reason of failure to pay child support, but never heard of it in regard to alimoney.

[WhizBang]

I am not a US citizen or lawyer but thought alimony and child support were treated differently as far as non payment were concerned..

Ok, never mind, I thought this was from the OP.

Edited October 4, 2012 by WhizBang

[Soutpeel]

I am not a US citizen or lawyer but thought alimony and child support were treated differently as far as non payment were concerned..

You state you are NOT a US citizen, so I assume you have what... a green card? And you were in the US and now in Thailand on a passport OTHER than the USA and your financial entanglements are in the State of California?

That being the case, I would have my doubts that the State of California could do anything to your non USA passport, especially given that you no longer reside in the USA, and, I assume, have no intentions of going back.

Unless there are some diplomatic/international arrangements between the USA and YOUR country, you should be ok, I would think.

Have you discussed any of this with your lawyer? And/or YOUR embassy?

You should go back an read the OP, the person you are responding to is not the OP, a non-US passport has nothing to do with the OP's question

Edited October 4, 2012 by Soutpeel

[WhizBang]

You should go back an read the OP, the person you are responding to is not the OP, a non-US passport has nothing to do with the OP's question

Yes, yes. My mistake. I thought that it WAS the OP.

[Nisa]

As far as understand it failure to pay alimony is a civil issue and not criminal. I don't think that your wife can have a hold put on your passport for non-payment, BUT, I MIGHT BE WRONG as I'm not, nor want to be a lawyer.

That has always been my understanding too. Child Support on the other hand is a different story.

A difference between child support and alimony is that a contempt type proceedings cannot be brought against a person for failing to make adequate efforts to pay. The courts say this would be a form of involuntary servitude. Keep in mind that Contempt Charged is what gets people into big trouble by not paying child support There are cases where Alimony can be handled by the government through the family laws as with child support but I personally can't see that being applicable in this case since he has paid all his child support and no judgement for more has been ordered.

[Nisa]

Get a lawyer and see if you are even right about a passport hold but also ask about ... a case called In re Marriage of Reynolds (1998) 63 Cal.App.4th 1373 that basically states you are entitled to retire at age sixty five and can not be required to work to support your spouse beyond that age.

[somtommike]

I appreciate all the good comments but for some reason the State of California held open my case and I am trying to do my best to pay but the math doesn't work out. $2,200 x 60 months is $132,000 and I will owe her at that time about $75,000 dollars. I would be in Thailand now if I didn't have to pay this and didn't have to worry about losing my passport so this lady is taking away the best years of my life just because she is greedy. All I can hope is that the court when I turn 62 allows me to reduce my payments to half of my military pension and continue paying until I die I guess.

[lopburi3]

Several off-topic posts removed.

[TommoPhysicist]

Get a new passport, move to Thailand, stop paying all alimony.

Worry about the passport in 10 years, you might be dead, she might be dead.

Thailand might change the rules to give you citizenship.

What are they gonna do? Ten years is a long time.

Edited October 4, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[Nisa]

I appreciate all the good comments but for some reason the State of California held open my case and I am trying to do my best to pay but the math doesn't work out. $2,200 x 60 months is $132,000 and I will owe her at that time about $75,000 dollars. I would be in Thailand now if I didn't have to pay this and didn't have to worry about losing my passport so this lady is taking away the best years of my life just because she is greedy. All I can hope is that the court when I turn 62 allows me to reduce my payments to half of my military pension and continue paying until I die I guess.

Sorry, I misread and thought you said you were 67. I really think you need to speak to a lawyer. You probably don't want to spend more but call (free) around and explain your situation and see what they say. I had a problem once and did this and while all the lawyers kept say they "may" be able to help, I found one who knew a specific code buried in the law that allowed him all but to guarantee me a victory.

I still am skeptical of the whole holding passport thing for alimony / spousal support and have a feeling this may be a hold over from when you owed child support and they have incorrectly not released this hold of threat of a hold.

[Langsuan Man]

Child support is the big thing since most states pay the spouse who has custody of the children and then they collect the money from the spouse who is ordered to pay the child support, therefore failure to pay becomes a criminal offense

Alimony, on the other hand is purely a civil function and is merely a "contract" and as such civil procedure rules

[lemonjelly]

can the Embassy refuse you a new passport whilst you are abroad, thus making it impossible to leave the foreign country/return home...... what's the Embassy's policy on this?

[Nisa]

can the Embassy refuse you a new passport whilst you are abroad, thus making it impossible to leave the foreign country/return home...... what's the Embassy's policy on this?

They can't refuse to let you into your own country but not sure on the specifics. They might just issue you a temporary type passport good just to return home.

[koolbreez]

Living in California was the first mistake. The laws governing alimony in California are strict. I believe alimony originated in California, but I might be mistraken.

It sounds like the divorce was hostile, and the ex wants to ruin your life for whatever reason. Did the Thai wife enter the picture before, or after the divorce?

There will be no problem for you leaving the county as long as the judge that handled the divorce can be convinced you will continue to pay your legal obligation to her, which might be hard given how long you seem to have went without paying.

The amount you pay is usually determined by a means test, that being how much you make, and her ability to care for herself with her work. It sounds as though she was a stay at home mom without a career given the amount you are paying. It also is usual that the amount of her alimony combined with the child support amount at the time of the final decree was about sixty percent of your income at the time.

If this original income amount you made has went down, and because of reasons out of your control prevent you from still making that income amount (like health reasons, not because you simply don't want to do that job anymore), then you can petition the court to have the amount reduced (you don't need her permission), or eliminated if she is now employed in a career where she can reasonably support herself, as it sounds as though the kids have reached the age of maturity, and it is no longer necessary that she maintain a home for them, or if she has remarried, or that you can prove she falls under common law marriage requirements in California, and she isn't formally married simply to continue to receive funds from you.

Contact a good divorce attorney as it does sound like you can afford one, but given that you have made an offer to settle for a lump sum amount, it might be hard proving you can no longer afford to pay her. Where is that money coming from, and why can't you afford to continue meeting the obligation? Moving to Thailand isn't a good excuse.

If your passport is revoked while you are out of the country, the last country you entered on the computer is contacted, and when they find you you are usually jailed until they deport you back to your home country. The embassy has nothing to do with t. The revoked passport number is also placed on a watch list.

Edited October 4, 2012 by koolbreez

[Chittychangchang]

Get yourself a fresh 10 year passport.

Liquidate your assets

Retire and live of the radar in LOS

Enjoy your life and leave the past behind.

[7by7]

Get a new passport, move to Thailand, stop paying all alimony.

Worry about the passport in 10 years, you might be dead, she might be dead.

Thailand might change the rules to give you citizenship.

What are they gonna do? Ten years is a long time.

Get yourself a fresh 10 year passport.

Liquidate your assets

Retire and live of the radar in LOS

Enjoy your life and leave the past behind.

The above two posts show a head in the sand attitude that is only storing up trouble for later on and should be ignored.

[7by7]

can the Embassy refuse you a new passport whilst you are abroad, thus making it impossible to leave the foreign country/return home...... what's the Embassy's policy on this?

I beleive the UK would issue you an emergency travel document to use for your return home. I imagine the US has something similar.

[submaniac]

OP, here's some advice:

(1) Don't get married or divorced in California. Actually try to avoid the state of California altogether as it has some pretty goofball laws.

(2) The passport denial is for child support only. It does not apply to alimony.

Here's some reading:

This is the wikipedia on the law that authorizes passport denial:

http://en.wikipedia....U.S.C._§_652(k)

Here is the Orange County California website on the passport/child support law:

http://www.ocsd.org/...nextfmt=default

Here is the actual text of the law itself:

http://codes.lp.find...e/42/7/IV/D/652

Long story short both alimony and child support are on a state level, not a Federal level. Passports are a Federal matter as it is exclusive jurisdiction of the U.S. government.

The only reason why child support can be enforced by revocation of a U.S. passport is because the United States Congress enacted legislation giving the U.S. Secretary of State the ability deny passports to those who are in arrears on child support from a State Court. Without the law, no U.S. state or state court could interfere with a passport.

The law applicable to denial of passports is related to child support, but does not make owing outstanding alimony grounds for refusal of a passport (see 22 CFR 51.70 at (a)(8)):

http://law.justia.co...6.33.5.5.1.html

"(a) A passport, except for direct return to the United States, shall not be issued in any case in which the Secretary of State determines or is informed by competent authority that:

(8) The applicant has been certified by the Secretary of Health and Human Services as notified by a State agency under 42 U.S.C. 652(k) to be in arrears of child support in an amount exceeding $5,000.00."

EVEN IF they denied a passport, they must still allow a passport for "direct return to the United States". In other words, even if your passport application is denied for international travel, the United States Secretary of State is nonetheless obligated to issue a passport for direct return to the United States.

Edited October 4, 2012 by submaniac

[Tatsujin]

Assuming that you are already in Thailand, what would happen if you 'lost' your passport (1 year before it expires for example) and applied for a new one at the US Embassy . . . would you then get a new 10 year passport?

[beano2274]

can the Embassy refuse you a new passport whilst you are abroad, thus making it impossible to leave the foreign country/return home...... what's the Embassy's policy on this?

Yes they can refuse you a new passport, you are then informed that you can get an emergency passport to travel back to your home country, or face being arrested and deported.