http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20576201

This refers to the renewed construction of Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank.

The building of these settlements has been going on for many years. Even Netanyahu must realise that they are an obstacle to peace. Yet they continue. Somehow Israel gets away with it because nobody is forceful enough to stop them.

I'm not pro-Israeli and not pro-Palestinian. I am only pro-peace. And yet the UN supports Mahmoud Abbas knowing perfectly well that he's at daggers drawn with Fatah, and knowing that American-backed Israel is against both. And if I'm confused about who is who, as I may well be, I'm not confused about one thing..... constant outside interference will NEVER solve the Palestinian problem. The thing has to be played out by the people on the spot, unaided, until there is one nation controlling the whole area. That this will entail great suffering, I am fully aware.... their blood be on the heads of those who have constantly meddled.

yet the UN supports Mahmoud Abbas knowing perfectly well that he's at daggers drawn with Fatah...

??? ???

Maybe the U.N. unilateral move ignoring both Israel and Hamas was the fatal blow to peace?

Maybe the U.N. unilateral move ignoring both Israel and Hamas was the fatal blow to peace?

Actually I think there have been quite a lot of 'fatal blows'!

My feeling is that. if (what a dream!) everybody left Israel and the Palestinians to settle things by themselves, Israel would take over in a brief campaign. The question then is what would happen next. I think Israel is smart enough to realise that they have to find a solution in which the Palestinians are fairly governed, and participate in the joint state. In the long run, this would cause less bloodshed than the present impasse, and would give the Israelis, who, whatever you feel about the rights and wrongs of the issue, are going to be the dominant force, the chance to work out such a solution.

As Naam has realised, this is not an area I know much about... but maybe in some ways that is all to the good; I can say things which nobody who does know the full situation would risk! There is a definite need for new ideas!

(I know, Fools rush in...., but I don't mind being the fool in this case!)

...

(I know, Fools rush in...., but I don't mind being the fool in this case!)

Sweet thoughts but really I think the area is way too rough a neighborhood for idealistic sentiment.

As Naam has realised, this is not an area I know much about... but maybe in some ways that is all to the good; I can say things which nobody who does know the full situation would risk! There is a definite need for new ideas!

you are forgetting the legal aspects I-Birder which are crystal clear. the LORD himself gave the areas Judaea and Samaria as well as some other areas (nowadays erroneously called "West Bank") to his chosen people. any new ideas would border heresy.

I am only pro-peace

aren't we all IB? this sh*t is dragging on now since 65 years! none of the two sides will budge. that the hardliners on both sides are controlling a majority on both sides who want nothing more than peace for themselves, their children and their grandchildren is a terrible thing.

it's the outsiders who are too blame and lest we forget caused the root of the problem! a concerted action, led by the Greatest Nation on Earth™, supported by all other nations which can wield some power, and a true solomonic ruling could solve the problem, not in "no time" but in within a foreseeable time span.

yada yada both parties bla-bla should sit down yakety-yak for peace bla-bla-bla will lead to nothing!

"This refers to the renewed construction of Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank".

The Palestinians violated the Oslo accords that they signed by doing an end run with the UN. Israel responded by renewing construction. Actions have consequences.

"This refers to the renewed construction of Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank".

The Palestinians violated the Oslo accords that they signed by doing an end run with the UN. Israel responded by renewing construction. Actions have consequences.

Two wrongs don't make a right, UG.

"This refers to the renewed construction of Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank".

The Palestinians violated the Oslo accords that they signed by doing an end run with the UN. Israel responded by renewing construction. Actions have consequences.

perfectly legal actions (approved by 193 nations) have consequences and allowing thieves to keep on stealing? Oslo accord... my àss!

a number of countries have summoned the representatives of the thieves to make it clear what they think of theft. more to come.

-Australia summons Israeli ambassador over settlement plans...

-Britain summons Israeli ambassador in protest over settlements...

-UK, France, Sweden, Denmark and Spain summon Israeli ambassadors in protest at plan to build 3,000 settler homes...

Plenty of wrongs to go around.

The Israelis building new settlements isn't defensible but neither is the U.N's unilateral action which Abbas insisted on.

On the tax monies gambit, it's clear that was in retaliation for the U.N. move but I think that is more defensible than the settlements as it is being used to pay an overdue debt. The Palestinians indeed need self determination but to achieve that they have two choices: work with Israel or endless conflict.

The whole issue carries so much baggage that a fair settlement is almost, if not quite, impossible. That is why I suggested, unlikely though it seems, that we have to get rid of this baggage. I know that this means Israeli domination of the whole, but if they are given the chance, by the Palestinians and by the rest of the world, I would trust the Israelis to try and find ways in which everyone, Israelis and Palestinians alike, get a fair chance in life.

Idealistic, I know, but what else do we have to offer?

I will repeat what I have said often before, the establishment of the state of Israel after WW2 was the worst political decision of the twentieth century..... not because I have anything against the Jews, or any love for the Palestinian Arabs, but because it inevitably led to the present impasse.... zugzwang, if you're a chess player.

After the holocaust, the Jews weren't going to take no for an answer and I say that as a Jew. You know, many Jews tried to escape from Europe during WW2 and many did, but many others were simply not allowed into other countries and even turned away from the British Mandate of Palestine. The Jews collectively said ENOUGH WITH THAT, we are going to have one tiny piece of land where all Jews will always be welcome if they choose to come. Yes it offends the hell out of the Arab and Muslim world but the actual land of Israel represents a ridiculously tiny percentage of all Arab and Muslim lands, so which side is being greedy about land? Also consider when Israel was established Jews were kicked out of many Muslim countries so they went to ISRAEL. Sorry Jews deserve our tiny slice. I think Israel is a great little country that is an asset to the world so I see no mistake. It's not only about conflict and the IDF, its a very dynamic country in every respect. In one sense I do agree, as Israel is the power there, it is up to Israel whether to make peace or not. But the Palestinians could certainly do their part to make that decision EASIER for Israel.

Also, before you say the Palestinians had nothing to do with the holocaust, think again. Actually they did. Their highest leader was in Berlin during the war and actively working the Nazis to exterminate European Jews. Of course if the Nazis had one they had open plans to go into Israel and finish their job. The Palestinians wanted them to do that sooner, but they just didn't have the resources as they were starting to lose the war.

After the holocaust, the Jews weren't going to take no for an answer and I say that as a Jew. You know, many Jews tried to escape from Europe during WW2 and many did, but many others were simply not allowed into other countries and even turned away from the British Mandate of Palestine. The Jews collectively said ENOUGH WITH THAT, we are going to have one tiny piece of land where all Jews will always be welcome if they choose to come. Yes it offends the hell out of the Arab and Muslim world but the actual land of Israel represents a ridiculously tiny percentage of all Arab and Muslim lands, so which side is being greedy about land? Also consider when Israel was established Jews were kicked out of many Muslim countries so they went to ISRAEL. Sorry Jews deserve our tiny slice. I think Israel is a great little country that is an asset to the world so I see no mistake. It's not only about conflict and the IDF, its a very dynamic country in every respect. In one sense I do agree, as Israel is the power there, it is up to Israel whether to make peace or not. But the Palestinians could certainly do their part to make that decision EASIER for Israel.

Also, before you say the Palestinians had nothing to do with the holocaust, think again. Actually they did. Their highest leader was in Berlin during the war and actively working the Nazis to exterminate European Jews. Of course if the Nazis had one they had open plans to go into Israel and finish their job. The Palestinians wanted them to do that sooner, but they just didn't have the resources as they were starting to lose the war.

I wouldn't disagree with anything you say, JT, but the fact remains, it has created an impasse. It would have been better if the Jews had been given the whole of the Mandated Territory, presumably with some safeguards for the Palestinians. This, in effect, is the only possible solution.

I have an enormous admiration for the way the Jews have created a vibrant state out of next to nothing..... but that doesn't solve the problem.

Historically, Israel is a baby country. Yes there was a Jewish past in the region but the nation state is almost new. Many countries get started in messy circumstances. It's a bit too early to judge Israel a mistake. Also, it had to be in Israel. I wasn't ever going to happen and/or be accepted in Alaska.

allowing thieves to keep on stealing? Oslo accord... my àss!

I'm not sure which "thieves" you are referring to. The Palestinian Arabs turned down any right to that land when they refused the UN deal in 1948 and declared war on Israel. They have pledged to negotiate with the Israelis about land for peace and violated the agreement. Israel owes them nothing.

After the holocaust...

nearly all you wrote is fair and acceptable and that applies also to the "tiny slice the Jews deserve". the problem is not the tiny slice anymore but the settler islands in the "West Bank" which prevent a cohesive Palestinian homeland. anybody with an IQ above "moron-ness" must be aware that on this basis there can and will never be peace.

allowing thieves to keep on stealing? Oslo accord... my àss!

I'm not sure which "thieves" you are referring to. The Palestinian Arabs turned down any right to that land when they refused the UN deal in 1948 and declared war on Israel. They have pledged to negotiate with the Israelis about land for peace and violated the agreement. Israel owes them nothing.

yada yada yada yakety yakety yakety-yak

After the holocaust...

nearly all you wrote is fair and acceptable and that applies also to the "tiny slice the Jews deserve". the problem is not the tiny slice anymore but the settler islands in the "West Bank" which prevent a cohesive Palestinian homeland. anybody with an IQ above "moron-ness" must be aware that on this basis there can and will never be peace.

In case you haven't noticed over the years, I have never favored the Israeli settlements in the west bank. Nothing in that post mentioned I favored that either. That side, any potential negotiated peace MUST include security measures for Israel and that may possibly involve some buffer lands in the west bank but that's a different thing than favoring settlements. Israel has very good reason to be paranoid and security obsessed and if the Palestinians really want peace they're going to have make a deal.

if the Palestinians really want peace they're going to have make a deal.

The whole problem is that they do not want peace and never have. They could have had their own country years ago if they did. They want to destroy Israel and every Jew in the country.

if the Palestinians really want peace they're going to have make a deal.

The whole problem is that they do not want peace and never have. They could have had their own country years ago if they did. They want to destroy Israel and every Jew in the country.

I don't think it is quite that hopeless or can be said about ALL Palestinians but sadly I agree with the gist of what you said. I do think Israel WOULD make peace if the Palestinian side changed their tune and also of course totally renounce violent tactics, including Gaza. Israel could be "guilted" into making peace with the right strategy. They should accept help from people who understand Jews. It could be done.

They should accept help from people who understand Jews.

Nice pipe dream, but New York shrinks are just too bloody expensive.

They should accept help from people who understand Jews.

Nice pipe dream, but New York shrinks are just too bloody expensive.

and so are New Jersey lawyers

Historically, Israel is a baby country. Yes there was a Jewish past in the region but the nation state is almost new. Many countries get started in messy circumstances. It's a bit too early to judge Israel a mistake. Also, it had to be in Israel. I wasn't ever going to happen and/or be accepted in Alaska.

It dam_n nearly happened in Uganda, and was the accepted option from 1903-05. The Galveston Scheme actually took root in Texas!! Game changed with the Balfour Declaration in 1917...and the rest is history.

UG, you keep talking about the Palestinians being offered their own country. On another thread you posted the map of what they were offered... a non-viable patchwork of the 'horse designed by a committee' type. Yes, they've been offered peace; "we'll take what we want, and you can have the bits left over". Of course they hate the Jews... and this, I think, is the direct consequence of the 1948 'settlement', aided and abetted by all the other Arab states.

This why I think the situation is an impasse, and the only way forward is to discard all the accumulated baggage and rethink the whole situation, without depriving the Jews of their state (that is a given). Impossible? Then look forward to a continuation of the current mess.

After the holocaust...

nearly all you wrote is fair and acceptable and that applies also to the "tiny slice the Jews deserve". the problem is not the tiny slice anymore but the settler islands in the "West Bank" which prevent a cohesive Palestinian homeland. anybody with an IQ above "moron-ness" must be aware that on this basis there can and will never be peace.

There already is a cohesive Palestinian homeland, it's called TransJordan.

The whole issue carries so much baggage that a fair settlement is almost, if not quite, impossible. That is why I suggested, unlikely though it seems, that we have to get rid of this baggage. I know that this means Israeli domination of the whole, but if they are given the chance, by the Palestinians and by the rest of the world, I would trust the Israelis to try and find ways in which everyone, Israelis and Palestinians alike, get a fair chance in life.

Idealistic, I know, but what else do we have to offer?

I will repeat what I have said often before, the establishment of the state of Israel after WW2 was the worst political decision of the twentieth century..... not because I have anything against the Jews, or any love for the Palestinian Arabs, but because it inevitably led to the present impasse.... zugzwang, if you're a chess player.

Zugzwang eh? I'd forgotten I even knew that word. I would agree with your statement, but perhaps due to a different reading of events. The inevitable impasse was there for all to see from the 1920's onwards when the first pogroms targeted Jewish settlers returning to Zion. Of course the U.N two state partition plan was doomed to failure, not because of whether or not the Palestinian land was 'contiguous'; or not, but

due to the widely held Islamic belief that any land which was once part of Dar-es-Salaam was forever part of it. A Jewish state on a single grain of sand that was once ruled by Islam would not be accepted. Of course realpolitik dictates that this motive is concealed and so called Israeli land grabs are given as a pretext for the current impasse, much easier to sell this idea wouldn't you say.

P.S Thinking outside the box, If I were the Israeli prime minister I would try to expose this reality by negotiating a land deal for a fatwa from all the major Islamic schools of jurisprudence recognizing the state of Israel as a Jewish state within borders to be negotiated, a bit like 1948 but with a Quranic stamp of approval, not one from the U.N

Dar-es-Salaam? I thought that was a city in Tanzania (so does Google).

Dar-es-Salaam? I thought that was a city in Tanzania (so does Google).

SD is presumably talking about what is more usually referred to as Dar al Islam, or occasionally as Dar as-Salam, rather than the Tanzanian city of Dar es Salaam.

Dar-es-Salaam? I thought that was a city in Tanzania (so does Google).

SD is presumably talking about what is more usually referred to as Dar al Islam, or occasionally as Dar as-Salam, rather than the Tanzanian city of Dar es Salaam.

Correct, sorry for any confusion.