Bar Closing Midnight From 1st March

[bartender100]

Meanwhile in England

New drinking laws a cause for concern

ADAM GRETTON

February 16, 2004 06:30

Radical new round-the-clock drinking laws are sparking fears that quiet town centre streets will be ruined by late-night yobs.

But police say the move, which could allow 24-hour licences, will actually cut crime and disorder problems by doing away with 11 o'clock swill and turn out.

Changes to Britain's archaic licensing laws see powers being switched from courts to councils, with more relaxed rules allowing all-day, all-night drinking.

The prospect of a free-for-all is causing concern in towns such as Cromer, where officials are worried that the resort will get the kind of anti-social behaviour seen in holiday hotspots like Ibiza and Faliraki.

Town councillor and regeneration steering committee member John Morgan said: "There is a strange contradiction between making market towns more lively but cracking down on anti-social behaviour and binge drinking.

"It seems great in theory. We would like it to be like Rome or Barcelona with families wandering around the cafés and bars at midnight but we really cannot see it working in this country."

[professor]

Will there be any positive effects of all these changes? Yes. Once the economic impact has been felt, the pendulum will swing the other way. Yes, it will take time but meanwhile the girls will be accepting a lot less money for their services and will lose some of the attitude they have adopted lately.

I do think this will be interesting from a economics pov. At least initially one would expect greater competition for customers as it becomes obvious that the shorter hours will have a negative effect on nightlife (bars, girls, etc.) profitiability. This could set off mini-pricing wars as clubs drop cover charges, lower drink prices, bar fines, etc. and would spill over to the "companionship" economy as well as girls are forced to compete for jobs in an ever decreasing number of bars. Those who are able to find work in the bars and go-gos will most likely be forced to take price cuts as they face competition from a larger crowd of freelancers who are likely to try to compensate for not being in a bar by lowering thier prices. The girls are also more likely to be forced into very one-sided employment relationships which will make the business even that more damaging for those who enter it.

So to some degree, if the objective is to reduce vice this is a very poor way to accomplish that. It seems as if it would drive a great deal of the girls into freelancing which is even less accountable than the bar girls are today. Plus, how many out of work girls and guys are going to resort to crime? However, one might also speculate that this does benefit a very small set of bar owners. Those with solid financial resources can weather the initial loss of revenue in return for less competiton from other establishments and greater negotiatiating power for certain types of resources (girls, real estate, etc.).

Also, my take on Mr. Vietnam's comments are that it's like comparing apples and oranges. I love visting BKK but it's far from paradise. Sure, it's a wonderful place but I think there's a different motivation for people to live in Ft. Lauderdale than there is living in Bangkok. Affluent people can decide to live in Ft. Lauderdale. Affluent people cannot decide to live in BKK. Where are they going to come from, Chaing Mai? People already living in poverty are the ones who migrate to BKK.

If Thailand wants a different class of tourist/immigrant it needs to start thinking about a foreign investment. Nobody wants to invest in a country that will treat you like a second class citizen. Sure, you can buy your million baht card and get into a few golf clubs but until they start doing things like offering citizenship to non-Thai spouses, offering the opportunity to easily purchase property and whatever other changes need to be made so that people can actually feel as if they're welcome they're going to be viewed as a nice place to visit but not a place anybody would want to live and thus very few foreign investment dollars will flow. What kind of Westerner wants to invest in a business that they have to give up ownership rights to just to comply with the law? How many affluent Westerners are going to plunk down serious cash for homes when it's still somewhat vague if they actually own the home? In the US and many other Western nations, a large sector of the economy is driven by the small business person and the appreciation in real estate. Western investors want to create wealth and as long as the Thai government makes sure that it's next to impossible to establish any sort of long-term wealth building for non-Thai citizens then all they're going to get is people who are looking for a cheap place to live and an ample supply of girls and nightlife as all they're offering is short-term opportunities to enjoy the fruits of one's labors.

If anything Thailand seems to be taking its lead from Mexico which lives next door to one of the richest countries in the world but is only one step above third-world. Several years ago a whole community of US expats and retirees were ousted from their homes because some politician decided to give the land back to the historical owners. The number of people retiring in Mexico had a sharp drop after that little incident which almost erupted into an international affair between the two governments. With the exception of a few multi-nationals few Americans invest in Mexico despite the fact you can walk right across the border from places like El Paso and San Diego and open a business for 1/4 of what it would cost a mile north in the US. Between the corruption of the government and police and the very anti-gringo attitude of the country they all but guarantee that they will be in a countinous cycle of poverty. Is this really the playbook Thailand wants to adopt?

I agree with you. And it is this that cripples FDI.

Thaksin seems to like to play hero a lot. I think that is how a politician gains confidence. What he needs, however, is a more economic-driven rather than criminal justice-driven strategy. BTW, guys, he's got a doctorate from an obscure US university in Criminal Justice, and was a police officer. I think his pro-anti-vice strategy has become unbalanced. His fragmented internationalization tactics like hosting fashion and modeling events won't yield much unless the overall strategy---the soul and spirit---is in economic development. And, free trade lies in the heart of econ dev.

[otherstuff1957]

Before I came to Thailand I was reading the BKK Post almost every day and I was quite impressed by Taksin. Since moving here I have discovered that his words and actions rarely match! This midnight closing is just another example. The stated objective is to protect Thai youth, however, the exception zones are areas where young Thais outnumber the tourists. I rarely see young Thais on Soi Cowboy or at NEP, but at nightclubs on Ratchadapisek and RCA, they outnumber the tourists by at least 10 to 1.

I commented on this to my wife and asked her if the Taksin Govt. was stupid, incompetent or just corrupt. She didn't hesitate - The're corrupt of course! I think Thailand deserves a better Government. The question is, are the other Thai polititians that are any better?

[ChiangMaiThai]

Before I came to Thailand I was reading the BKK Post almost every day and I was quite impressed by Taksin. Since moving here I have discovered that his words and actions rarely match! This midnight closing is just another example. The stated objective is to protect Thai youth, however, the exception zones are areas where young Thais outnumber the tourists. I rarely see young Thais on Soi Cowboy or at NEP, but at nightclubs on Ratchadapisek and RCA, they outnumber the tourists by at least 10 to 1.

I commented on this to my wife and asked her if the Taksin Govt. was stupid, incompetent or just corrupt. She didn't hesitate - The're corrupt of course! I think Thailand deserves a better Government. The question is, are the other Thai polititians that are any better?

This is a VERY, VERY good point. The 'protecting kids' bit is just a convenient angle to come at. Obviously this is about much more. I am happy to reprt, that I am finally hearing Thais talking about this guy with little admiration. There is hope yet.

[Arjay]

Figure this. Provinces such as Pattaya and Phuket are controlled by the current governments oppostion parties. Thaksin and Thai Rak Thai might be trying to cut their funding and gain a complete foothold throught the country.

[Axel]

The biggest problem, as always around here, is a lack of planning.

Just talked to some guys running a place in Thailand that opens early morning for breakfast, keeps going through lunch and dinner and starts with live music after 9:00 pm.

They don't know what will come, so first fired the live band, resp. did not extent their contract beyond March 1. OK, only 4 jobs lost.

Their staff was quite happy, considering that they 'don't have to work so hard anymore' tkx to Mr. T. and Pura.

A bit long faces when they have been told, if the law goes through, the opening hours will change, Lunch from 11:30 to 2:00 pm, dinner from 6:00 pm to midnight.

This needs only one shift of staff, (they have 4 hours rest in between)

The other shift no longer needed. Another 15 jobs lost.

This is only one place. I know a few more.

[billo]

As a regular visitor to Thailand and as someone who is keen to invest in the

county in the near future, I find the recent advice regarding the amendments

to closing times that include the areas Nana Plaza and Soi Cowboy as very concerning. Why are two of the most well known and expat friendly areas being excluded from the "Entertainment Zones"?

There are two issues here. Firstly, the motivation for such a move and

secondly the manner in which it has occurred. I find it difficult to

believe that targeting these two areas with a 12 PM closing time was not

done without the prior knowledge that bar owners in this area will not be

able to make a profit; expats are not going to opt for a night out where the lights come on at 12 PM.

One has to wonder who will actually benefit from such a move and it is laughable to suggest that it is a "clean up Bangkok" initiative. The girls will still be there,; they will just be out on the streets without any of the mutual protection that exists for customers and girls alike within a bar environment.

If Nana Plaza and Soi Cowboy is to become subject to what is

essentially a curfew, the two areas will re-invent themselves as alternative

adult entertainment based venues where the bottom line is the same. As some one else had said, ultimately the realities of the the impact on tourism will cut in and the timings will be restored.

This is simply a take over by a highlyinfluential group that will be achieved in themedium term while in the shorter term expat mony will be directed into the designated zones. There is only one agenda here and to find out what it is, all you have to do is follow the money. The only chance that this will fail is if Thailand's international reputation starts getting attention because of the manner in which this is being allowed to ccour; the expat network extends worldwide and the repercussions of this type of action will get attention.

As a potential investor, I have had detailed discussions with a number of

co-investors over the last two days and quite frankly, this is not about

adult entertainment. The message here is very clear - you cannot afford to

invest anywhere that allows targeted and blatant attacks on established

businesses.

Having said that, the King Of Thailand is a wise man who had lead his

country with great distinction for many years. In Australia he is respected

as a man of great integrity and judgement and I am sure that he will again

prove to be a great leader when his country is verging on sending a very

dangerous message to the international media. The trouble is, who is going to tell him what is going on; the adult enteratinment industry tag makes it a difficult horse to back.

As a final point, could there be a link to the current pressure on the Bangkok Post that has seen the editor be "promoted"? I reckon an each way bet might just put some money in your pocket.

[george]

Bars and clubs protest as Thailand drink curfew tackles sleazy image

BANGKOK: -- British tourists heading to Thailand for a taste of its legendary exotic nightlife are likely to find the country’s strict new licensing laws a bit of a surprise.

After months of stormy debate, the Thai government has decided to impose a midnight curfew on pubs, go-go bars and nightclubs unless they are located in special entertainment zones.

The move has provoked public outcry from bar owners and thousands of waiters, dancers and bar girls, as well as disgruntled murmurings from late-night boozers.

A small group of bar girls staged a peaceful protest outside parliament last week and nightclub associations are begging the government for a reprieve, so far without success.

The new law takes effect on March 1 and will apply to all bars, discos, karaoke lounges and massage parlours. In Bangkok, only nightclubs in the Patpong district and two outlying zones can stay open after 12am.

The new law distinguishes between bars and karaoke lounges inside the zones, which must close at 1am, and discos that must close by 2am.

Thailand has also introduced a night time curfew on teenagers blamed for rising youth crime, drug-taking and sliding moral values. From March 29, all under-18s must be home by 10pm or risk a reprimand from police. The teenage curfew and the midnight bar closing were announced on the same day.

The two rulings are a triumph for hardliners at the interior ministry who lobbied for tighter controls on nightclubs that they blame for leading Thai youth astray. Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, a former policeman with an authoritarian streak, has lent his support to a three-year social order campaign. Conservative Thais, who say they don’t want their country to be seen as a naughty playground for foreign tourists and debauched expatriates, have cheered the curfews.

But bar owners complain that it will cost thousands of jobs and deter foreigners who seek out racy nightlife. Popular Bangkok hangouts for foreign residents and tourists are predicting a wave of closures as boozers head to Patpong’s 100-odd clubs to avoid the midnight curfew. Bangkok’s two other entertainment zones are dominated by Thai-oriented karaoke lounges and massage parlours that double as brothels.

David Jacobson, owner of Q-Bar, an upmarket Bangkok bar that attracts a trendy mixed crowd, predicted that he would be forced to close down in the next three to four months. He said investors should steer clear of Thailand because the rules of business keep changing. "It’s a disaster - one minute we’re legal, next minute we’re not," he said.

However, analysts say the impact on tourism will be limited, since holidaymakers come to Thailand for a range of activities and are likely to adjust to restrictions on late-night boozing. Indeed, some predict a boom in clubs inside the entertainment zones that can open seven days a week.

But for residents in Thailand who pride themselves on living ‘la dolce vita’ in the exotic Far East, it’s a huge blow. Ironically, Thailand’s crackdown comes just months after nearby Singapore, a city-state known for its draconian rules, gave the nod to all-night drinking and bar-top dancing.

--Agencies 2004-02-22

[sabaijai]

If David Jacobsen, often touted in the Bangkok press as a model entrepreneur for his success with Q-Bar, is telling investors to stay away, this could get interesting.

Then again I can remember living in Bangkok when there was a 1am curfew throughout the city, and we expats got by just fine then.

Jobs will be lost, tourism will be affected (I'd guess that not only will fewer tourists visit Bangkok, but a day or two will be knocked off the average duration of stay), but life will go on.

[Sick Boy]

It was reported recently that a bill proposed by the Royal Thai Police making the use of mobile phones whilst driving illegal, has been shelved. A spokesman for the Thai Rak Thai party said the commitee felt that imposing such a law would restrict people's freedom.

Early closing times, curfews, relocation of beggars during APEC, sex ban for students, etc.. Are these not restrictive of people's freedom?

It could be just a coincidence that PM owns the largest mobile phone company in Thailand.

[mrvietnam2001]

A spokesman for the Thai Rak Thai party said the commitee felt that imposing such a law would restrict people's freedom.

LOL!

Mr Vietnam

[sonthaya]

Who wants to travel all the way to LOS to be put to bed at midnight?

[joebuzzard]

I hope to see more stories like this in the international press.

Thai Night Life Faces a Shortened Night

Bangkok - THE law-and-order government of Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra has been trying to clean up Thailand's image as a good-time sex and entertainment center since his election in 2001. The latest effort focuses on earlier closing hours for bars, discos, massage parlors and karaoke halls across the country.

Three years ago, the government decreed that these establishments, well-known for staying open until 6 a.m., close at 2 a.m. In February, a new policy was announced: all bars and nightclubs licensed after last Jan. 13 would have to close by midnight. Thai news organizations immediately called the plan, which was to take effect March 1, the "Cinderella decree."

After protests by waitresses, bartenders, dancers and cabdrivers, who complained that they would lose income, the government modified its hard-line stance. In a compromise announced in early March, the government said that all such places would have to close by 1 a.m. starting April 1. However, debate is continuing within the government concerning the new hours, and for the time being, the legal closing hour remains 2 a.m., according to Vasu Thirasak of the Thai Tourism Authority.

In a further tightening of regulations, the Interior Ministry said new nightspots would not be allowed to open outside designated entertainment zones. Bangkok, for example, has three established entertainment zones: Patpong, New Petchburi and Ratchadaphisek. The government also announced a marked increase in license fees, which owners of bars and clubs said could put many of them out of business.

"This measure can be considered a compromise," said Pracha Maleenont, the deputy interior minister, of the 1 a.m. closing. "This decision comes halfway between what is wanted by operators and law enforcers."

The government promotes Thailand as a destination replete with Buddhist temples and beautiful beaches, which, in combination with its good transportation and hotels, do draw many visitors. But some tourists also choose Thailand - particularly Bangkok and certain nearby beach resorts - for night life that includes raunchy strip joints and massage parlors that offer more than a massage.

In short, the sex industry in Thailand is a big attraction for foreigners from the West and from other parts of Asia and a big money earner for many Thais. The ripple effect of the regulations on night life could hit some of the most vulnerable, analysts said. For example, waitresses, masseuses, strippers and prostitutes in the Bangkok bars often come from northeast Thailand, one of the country's poorest regions.

But among the general public, weary of Thailand's reputation as an easy place for sex and drugs, the more severe policies are popular, according to opinion surveys. A "shoot to kill" policy, under which more than 2,000 people said to be drug traffickers have been killed by the police since the government put it into effect in February 2003, was also well received, surveys showed.

The prospect of new closing hours have many club owners worried. At some bars frequented by foreigners, patrons only start to arrive after midnight. Well-to-do foreigners who frequent the Q-Bar, billed as the first New York-style cocktail bar in Bangkok, in a wealthy residential district worry that their favorite hangout will close.

There is some suspicion among Western residents in Bangkok that the government's new restrictions are aimed in part at curbing their entertainment. The police raided CM2, a bar at the Siam Square Novotel Hotel in Bangkok that is a favorite of wealthy Western and Thai businessmen last year. During the raid, the doors were locked and the police tested the urine of all patrons for drug use.

The government defends its actions by saying that it is regulating night life to protect Thailand's children from exposure to blatant displays of sexuality and to turn the clock back to more sedate times. "I want my children to grow up in a polite, peaceful and orderly society," said Purachai Piemsomboon, a former interior minister, who has spearheaded the crackdown.

By JANE PERLEZ, The New York Times

Published: April 18, 2004

[davethailand]

why

[Guest IT Manager]

So he doesn't have to educate them.

[sonthaya]

TIT, but how stupid can you be ?