Anybody Else Considering A Move To Cambodia?

FunFon · April 1, 2013

Cambodia for me looks appealing as the visa situation is easier, I can actually own and run a business which is important to me as I don't like being idle.

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Yes, for those two factors Cambodia is definitely better. However wrt setting up a business just as in Thailand you can't depend on rule of law nor political stability, so have to make sure it doesn't require a cash investment larger than you can afford to risk, nor a long time to start throwing off profits. For me, I'd make sure it generated a full pay-back within 1-2 years. Don't count on being able to get much selling it either, and just accept that it can all be yanked out from under you in a heartbeat if it suits someone with real power - in either place.

If you really want to put in blood sweat and tears building a real business that may well pay off big-time, much safer to do so in a more secure jurisdiction where the rule of law and political stability is very strong.

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You'll find Cambodia has very little infrastructure compared to Thailand, and the local food is not nearly as good, but many areas have wonderful western restaurants, just not cheap. The people are great, but generally I find the place dirty and depressing after I've been there a while.

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Plus from what I can gather in Thailand everything is golden till your wife decides she has discovered your true net worth and has finally got it all in her name. At that point your future ranges from an internationally recognised 8.7 score high jump from a balcony or her and her family in their village turn cold and you run in fear of your life.

Plus after a year here I feel jaded and the more I learn the less I feel welcome unless the wallet is on full sprinkler effect mode.

...

From my humble observations I think this place must have been brilliant 20-30 years ago and I do like the locals, I just don't trust them.

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I've found the Thais as a whole to be every bit as trustworthy as any people anywhere.

The problem is those attracted to foreign-populated areas tend to be the dodgiest ones in the Kingdom from girls on the make and lawyers and their government official partners in crime.

If you learn the language and get away from those areas, take the time to build real personal relationships with ordinary people that aren't themselves actively trying to get things out of you, you will find real genuine salt of the earth virtuous people more so that you might back home, IMO more so among the peasantry than the merchant classes or officials - not categorically speaking but wrt the percentage odds.

But of course doing all that's hardly worth it for most, just trying to address the "Thais are all crooked" misconception.

JLCrab · April 1, 2013

Re Cambodia - take the time to build real personal relationships with ordinary people ...

... or else just read Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People (1936)

Berkshire · April 1, 2013

I've found the Thais as a whole to be every bit as trustworthy as any people anywhere.

The problem is those attracted to foreign-populated areas tend to be the dodgiest ones in the Kingdom from girls on the make and lawyers and their government official partners in crime.

If you learn the language and get away from those areas, take the time to build real personal relationships with ordinary people that aren't themselves actively trying to get things out of you, you will find real genuine salt of the earth virtuous people more so that you might back home, IMO more so among the peasantry than the merchant classes or officials - not categorically speaking but wrt the percentage odds.

But of course doing all that's hardly worth it for most, just trying to address the "Thais are all crooked" misconception.

Very good points, actually. Normal Thais are basically no different than any other nationality anywhere. The problem in Thailand are Thais who make their living from foreigners, whether in business or social situations. And these are the Thais that many foreigners spend the most time around, hence the negative perception. Amazing that so many experienced expats can't figure this out.

cardholder · April 1, 2013

I've found the Thais as a whole to be every bit as trustworthy as any people anywhere.

The problem is those attracted to foreign-populated areas tend to be the dodgiest ones in the Kingdom from girls on the make and lawyers and their government official partners in crime.

If you learn the language and get away from those areas, take the time to build real personal relationships with ordinary people that aren't themselves actively trying to get things out of you, you will find real genuine salt of the earth virtuous people more so that you might back home, IMO more so among the peasantry than the merchant classes or officials - not categorically speaking but wrt the percentage odds.

But of course doing all that's hardly worth it for most, just trying to address the "Thais are all crooked" misconception.

Very good points, actually. Normal Thais are basically no different than any other nationality anywhere. The problem in Thailand are Thais who make their living from foreigners, whether in business or social situations. And these are the Thais that many foreigners spend the most time around, hence the negative perception. Amazing that so many experienced expats can't figure this out.

I actually agree with Britgent.

The Thais I have experienced do not trust their fellow Thais.

In a couple of cases they actually don't like other Thais, subscribing to the professor's recent view that "The only thing wrong with Thailand is the Thai people".

Endemic corruption cannot be a good start point for mutual trust.

FunFon · April 1, 2013

I've found the Thais as a whole to be every bit as trustworthy as any people anywhere.

The problem is those attracted to foreign-populated areas tend to be the dodgiest ones in the Kingdom from girls on the make and lawyers and their government official partners in crime.

If you learn the language and get away from those areas, take the time to build real personal relationships with ordinary people that aren't themselves actively trying to get things out of you, you will find real genuine salt of the earth virtuous people more so that you might back home, IMO more so among the peasantry than the merchant classes or officials - not categorically speaking but wrt the percentage odds.

But of course doing all that's hardly worth it for most, just trying to address the "Thais are all crooked" misconception.

Very good points, actually. Normal Thais are basically no different than any other nationality anywhere. The problem in Thailand are Thais who make their living from foreigners, whether in business or social situations. And these are the Thais that many foreigners spend the most time around, hence the negative perception. Amazing that so many experienced expats can't figure this out.

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Plus over time the scammers have become more subtle, in high-value cases training simple country girls to act like espionage "sleepers" not asking for anything building trust over years.

Remember the guy was it Phuket? who had a woman start out as his maid, then used her to act as his property manager collecting rents etc. Turned out she was in league with the police - land office officials mafia and they all forged the deed documents putting his properties in her name, in the end kidnapped his kid and stuck him down a well he lost everything.

Best IMO to just completely avoid the areas with high concentration of foreigners, just attracts the worst of the worst and they're the ones actually running the show, very rare for a farang to have enough connections to save himself, have to buy your way out and often end up ruined.

Having a propensity for drugs and gambling or most dangerously underage partners of course leaves you very vulnerable, I'm sure thousands of stories no one ever hears due to the victim not wanting anyone to know.

Make your money outside the kingdom, leave the bulk of it there and just bring in what you need a few months at a time.

FunFon · April 1, 2013

The Thais I have experienced do not trust their fellow Thais.

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Just realize that the ones telling you stuff like this may be doing so for their own reasons, trying to build up your own connection to and trust in them as exceptions. Just like:

"I really like farang, Thai man no good, only drink and play cards no take care Thai lady same same farang."

"I no like young hansum man, old man much better."

"I no want rich man, just good heart and enough to live OK"

"Thailand no good, I want to go good country like [insert your country here]."

etc etc

harryfrompattaya · April 1, 2013

Soon I shall be known as HappyAtMonaco

Cousin Le Roy has got me and the wife a one year Visa to Monaco as he does favors for very rich. I guess going First Class is better than cheap Cambodia. One only lives once and what is money for

FunFon · April 1, 2013

Re Cambodia - take the time to build real personal relationships with ordinary people ...

... or else just read Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People (1936)

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Excellent resource from a "howto" techniques POV, but IMO seems to focus too much on transactional-instrumental relationships rather than sincerely building true intimacy for its own sake, and most people interpret its lessons superficially as in George Burns' "Sincerity - if you can fake that, you've got it made."

Here's a recent interesting article but with the same "self-help success" approach.

M. Scott Peck's "The Road Less Taken" IMO elevates the discussion to a higher level.

Bottom line is there is no conflict between self-interest and giving of yourself to others, but I think the original motivation is important.

davejones · April 1, 2013

I too have put a move to Cambodia into the "possibility" category of my journey in S.E.A. and am in the same boat as you having never entered the Kingdon yet (except for a Visa run ) I have a friend who has been taking holidays there off & on over the last 3yrs and he really enjoys it. However one thing he always says is how after awhile he needs to get over to Thailand to "take the edge off" When I asked him why he does this, he said as much as he loves Cambodia and the people there, it is as lemoncake mentioned in that it is still a bit like the wild west with an unstable economy and majority of poor people. He says this because he feels he needs to be "on his toes" a bit more there and his level of relaxation will not be the same as Thailand.

But lets be straight, much of this has to do with where you are and the locations you spend the majority of your time at. From the research I have done I know that Cambodia is MUCH MORE visa friendly then the LOS. But isn't just about anywhere?

No. Most/many places in the world have much tougher visa rules. Thailand is one of the easiest for most people. Try getting a visa to live in USA, UK, Schengen if you're not from those areas.

cardholder · April 1, 2013

The Thais I have experienced do not trust their fellow Thais.
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Just realize that the ones telling you stuff like this may be doing so for their own reasons, trying to build up your own connection to and trust in them as exceptions. Just like:

"I really like farang, Thai man no good, only drink and play cards no take care Thai lady same same farang."

"I no like young hansum man, old man much better."

"I no want rich man, just good heart and enough to live OK"

"Thailand no good, I want to go good country like [insert your country here]."

etc etc

No FF - these people are not from the bar girl community (don't get me wrong, I know plenty who are).

No, these are educated, often business Thais. They will openly question many of the paradigms in Thailand, circulate some of the more negative videos relating to Thailand rail against the inbred corruption.

They speak of fundamental flaws in Thai society and are agents for change. I frankly doubt that they will achieve their aims but is a refreshing outlook.

MrWorldwide · April 1, 2013

Hmm, doesn't seem to be a whole lot of discussion re Cambodia in the last couple of pages of this thread ..... somehow we seem to be discussing Thai people and Thailand. Weird.

Soutpeel · April 1, 2013

I find it difficult to support any country that until recently has barely stopped slaughtering its own citizens. Unlike its surrounding neighbours, Thailand has never done that. I enjoy Chiang Mai because it has a very substantial western expat base. There is nowhere in the city that DOESN'T have someone who can't speak at least a little English. Chiang Mai is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it covers most of what westerners want in a society... lots of accommodation, good medical, good dental, stable economy, reasonable and available merchandise, many places to eat, night life, fair transportation and it's easy to walk just about anywhere within an hour.

You might want to look up the Tak Bai incident.

Or before that, the 2200 plus extrajudicial executions of suspected drug dealers.

Or.... well, I'm too busy to do other's research.

Those are not auto-genocide

The only people on this planet who ever commit auto-genocide are the khmers

what about the russians under stalin ?

gregchambers · April 1, 2013

Visa rules can be changed on a government whim and businesses can be taken over by mafia thugs if you are obviously successful so not sure that either are great reasons to move to Cambodia... ten year ago I thought PP much safer than anywhere in PI but food quite expensive to same standard as Thailand but there were an awful lot of ex-brothel gals in the foreign biased nightclubs who were too dangerous (HIV etc) to play with and now seem be pricing themselves out of the market as per Thais so have not bothered with a new visit yet.

The Cambo government is to be congratulated on the protecting over-50 foreigners from the predatory young ladies of the night, though.

xylophone · April 1, 2013

The Thais I have experienced do not trust their fellow Thais.
-
Just realize that the ones telling you stuff like this may be doing so for their own reasons, trying to build up your own connection to and trust in them as exceptions. Just like:

"I really like farang, Thai man no good, only drink and play cards no take care Thai lady same same farang."

"I no like young hansum man, old man much better."

"I no want rich man, just good heart and enough to live OK"

"Thailand no good, I want to go good country like [insert your country here]."

etc etc

Damn, am I being conned then??

BKS22 · April 3, 2013

I too have put a move to Cambodia into the "possibility" category of my journey in S.E.A. and am in the same boat as you having never entered the Kingdon yet (except for a Visa run ) I have a friend who has been taking holidays there off & on over the last 3yrs and he really enjoys it. However one thing he always says is how after awhile he needs to get over to Thailand to "take the edge off" When I asked him why he does this, he said as much as he loves Cambodia and the people there, it is as lemoncake mentioned in that it is still a bit like the wild west with an unstable economy and majority of poor people. He says this because he feels he needs to be "on his toes" a bit more there and his level of relaxation will not be the same as Thailand.

But lets be straight, much of this has to do with where you are and the locations you spend the majority of your time at. From the research I have done I know that Cambodia is MUCH MORE visa friendly then the LOS. But isn't just about anywhere?

No. Most/many places in the world have much tougher visa rules. Thailand is one of the easiest for most people. Try getting a visa to live in USA, UK, Schengen if you're not from those areas.

True....but I was referring more to the length of stay, not the overall difficulty of obtaining the Visa. At least once you get a Visa from one those countries you mentioned...it's valid for upwards of a year or longer and the term of stay is is usually many months. Hence no inconvenient (money biased) visa runs needed.

Fibbernacci · April 3, 2013

Funnily enough last offshore job involved a lot of Phillipino lads and you couldn't have asked for a nicer bunch of guys. Still in touch now and once they found out I lived in cm they tried to win me over to PI.

But even they were realistic in the security threat present, especially down south I think they said.

My little Canadian pal has also relocated to Cebu in PI and is trying to get me over but again I just can't really get that enthused with the place to be honest. I don't know why.

One of the prettiest ladies I have met here in cm when I first got here was a 100% phillipino girl raised in UK. Truly stunning. Less stunning was the Brit boyfriend bullshi##ing about being a stock market trader. 2 questions found him out and she looked slightly mortified at the prospect of having been taking it in the beef sandwich for the last two months from the mail boy!

Sorry really got lost in the moment and rambled on there.

Reading up still on combo now. The hardest bit will be leaving friends behind and the safety of knowing my way around here.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 6A using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You've obviously never heard of Bohol,Bantayan,Malapascua,Camotes,Cabilao?All neighbouring islands to Cebu and The Philippines have beaches which make Thailand's look like the dirty,overcrowded,full of hustlers dumps that most of them are!

Plus the guys are actually worth talking to,unlike Thailand!

notbkk · August 30, 2013

Thanks all for the varied and interesting posts. I too am thinking of relocating to Phnom Penh for various personal reasons. The place sounds generally speaking all good to me (internet, reasonable accommodation, job opportunities as ateacher, food, etc. I HATE chilies!) ,as things go. I am a 56 year old male ESL teacher and have been teaching in Bangkok for 3 years with the same company. I also lived in Phuket for a few months. The last thing I want to do is run Thailand down. That is certainly not my intention.Yes, I am getting despondent about Thailand. Apart from the beautiful beaches and islands and the mountains in the North, I find Thailand and SEA generally very mundane scenic wise. I think almost every country in the world are more scenic than Thailand with its endless boring bush and rice paddies that look the same wherever you go. And then there are these 'hi so' Bangkokians (read Thai-Chinese) who think they are god's gift to SEA. Their spoiled brats (not all, there are some lovely kids) has no respect and can drive one nuts. On the other end of the spectrum are the country folks to which my boyfriend of 8 years and his lovely family belongs. But they are another story. I am a South African and am used to existing amongst poor people and squalor. I am not rich and still have to work to supplement my pension. Actually, I HAVE to work otherwise I will go nuts! Ha ha! What I'm saying is that I won't mind the lower standard of living in Cambodia. So thanks for all the advice, I shall go and investigate in November. Any extra comments welcome, please.

Asiantravel · August 30, 2013

lack of affordable longterm accommodation and that break-ins are very common
I have a number of friends who moved there from Thailand some 5-6 years back, they have never mentioned problems with accommodation but they have about crime. When I go away for a couple of months I just lock my door and head off but they put all their goods into storage. That says it all to me.

The latest crimewave in Phnom Penh and Sihanoukville involves a group of young people on motorbikes that target older foreigners also on motorbikes and they will come up to you ans try to grab your bag, even if it is a small backpack with 2 straps. It doesn't matter what the result is even if the foreigner loses control of the bike in the process and ends up on the ground. This, in my view is shocking. And no one seems to come to the assistance of the foreigners. At least in Thailand some Thais would come to help you.

MrWorldwide · August 30, 2013

I would have the same problem living in Cambo as I would have in Indonesia - absolutely zero faith in the local Police. That said, when guys can write blogs describing a life of doing little beyond getting drunk and stoned cheaply in full view of the passing parade in PP, for some that must sound like the ultimate lifestyle. Horses for courses, but there is a point where I need more than cheap beer to keep me interested.

cardholder · August 30, 2013

lack of affordable longterm accommodation and that break-ins are very common
I have a number of friends who moved there from Thailand some 5-6 years back, they have never mentioned problems with accommodation but they have about crime. When I go away for a couple of months I just lock my door and head off but they put all their goods into storage. That says it all to me.

The latest crimewave in Phnom Penh and Sihanoukville involves a group of young people on motorbikes that target older foreigners also on motorbikes and they will come up to you ans try to grab your bag, even if it is a small backpack with 2 straps. It doesn't matter what the result is even if the foreigner loses control of the bike in the process and ends up on the ground. This, in my view is shocking. And no one seems to come to the assistance of the foreigners. At least in Thailand some Thais would come to help you.

Shocking indeed.

Have you been to Pattaya ?

pomchop · August 30, 2013

stumbled upon the book "first they killed my father" a few years ago....if every I have read a heartbreaking book about the KR this is it.

http://www.amazon.com/First-They-Killed-Father-Remembers/dp/B0017ODVCW

NeverSure · August 30, 2013

Interesting that this came back up.

Rent is higher in Cambodia. There hasn't been the wave of building there and you either choose much lesser quality or pay more. Think literally double.

Utilities are higher. Internet speeds are OK but slower.

There is a high risk if you need real medical attention. You almost need to be flown to Thailand. It would be a good idea to have flight insurance, and be able to pay medical bills in Thailand.

Food sucks imho. You can eat well if you pay for it.

Much more English is spoken there and you really don't need to learn the language unless you live in the sticks.

US dollars are readily accepted everywhere.

Clothes and many sundries are cheaper.

A new car is more.

Alcohol of any type is cheaper, as are cigarettes.

Bar girls are cheaper if you're into that type of thing.

Poverty abounds with the average Cambodian earning much less than a Thai. That's bad for a business but good for "romance."

Thailand is much more advanced with housing, infrastructure, etc. and in the right places it is more comfortable.

You can't get married in Cam. if you're over 50. Has something to do with trying to stop human trafficking. That could save a lot of guys a lot of money, haha.

You just have to try it for a few months and see what you think. I like PP better than anywhere else once I found the right parts to be in. There's simply more available, especially shopping for major items.

giggles · August 30, 2013

good french food and vino aplenty .....

many have moved there over the years after getting stiffed in los

experts are to be found on kymer440. c o m

Midfield General · August 30, 2013

I found Cambodia backward compared to Thailand and much less tourist orientated which might be a good thing.

I also found Cambodian working girls very reluctant to toot on ones flute which was very disappointing.

cardholder · August 30, 2013

I found Cambodia backward compared to Thailand and much less tourist orientated which might be a good thing.

I also found Cambodian working girls very reluctant to toot on ones flute which was very disappointing.

Would that be ALL of Cambodia or just the parts you visited.... which were ?

I recommend that you get your flute checked out because they managed a rootin, tootin tune on mine....

guzzi850m2 · August 30, 2013

I found Cambodia backward compared to Thailand and much less tourist orientated which might be a good thing.

I also found Cambodian working girls very reluctant to toot on ones flute which was very disappointing.

Would that be ALL of Cambodia or just the parts you visited.... which were ?

I recommend that you get your flute checked out because they managed a rootin, tootin tune on mine....

Ahmm I also got mine fine tuned when I was there many years ago.

Neeranam · August 30, 2013

I'd move to India if I had to leave Thailand. 1000 times better than Cambodia.

cardholder · August 30, 2013

I'd move to India if I had to leave Thailand. 1000 times better than Cambodia.

I can't think of anywhere I would rather not go than India. Personal choice, of course, but it has zero appeal.

TheSpade · August 30, 2013

I think PP is a decent enough place but it's the only place in Cambodia I'd even consider living and still it can't compare to BKK where I currently reside.

I wouldn't live there unless Thailand was no longer an option. As in I wasn't allowed in the country anymore.

The infrastructure is not there, the food isn't as good, it's not as cheap as people make out (I found food more expensive than Thailand), there's hardly any bars and clubs you can go where you'll find non working girls and the places you can find tend to be filled with girls who have gangster / dodgy local bfs (I went to a few and did not feel comfortable), there's not the same amount of 'modern' culture (for example in BKK I can go to comedy nights, film premiers, beer festivals etc which I don't think happen in Cambodia often if at all).

On the plus side there is cheap as shit local beer, cheap wine, less tourists, people I'd say were friendlier to random foreigners than the average Thai.

Still not enough to make me WANT to live there.

Neeranam · August 30, 2013

I'd move to India if I had to leave Thailand. 1000 times better than Cambodia.

I can't think of anywhere I would rather not go than India. Personal choice, of course, but it has zero appeal.

India is a huge diverse country - high mountains up north, beautiful quiet beaches nearer the South. Great food, very spiritual people.

All the people I have known to go to Cambodia were mongers looking for cheap, desperate girls.

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