Human Rights

[sonthaya]

pot calling kettle black

In Denmark we say, don't throw stones if you live in a glass house yourself

[Plus]

I bet in Denmark you get similar yearly reports from your diplomats, too. You just don't publisize them as the US does.

Can we stop recalling pots and kettles and start talking about the report, not the US?

Is there anything you particularly disagree with?

[sonthaya]

I bet in Denmark you get similar yearly reports from your diplomats, too. You just don't publisize them as the US does.

Can we stop recalling pots and kettles and start talking about the report, not the US?

Is there anything you particularly disagree with?

No, it was just a remark.

[aaaaaa]

aaaa:

The article that starts this thread is from The Nation. A Thai newpaper - not the Washington Post, or NY Times that would have a more broad based readership that might care more about other countries. The Nation has little interest in the fact that the new US Human Rights report also reflects poorly on all the countries you mention (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Bangladesh). As a matter of fact the new report is harder on all of those countries than it was on Thailand.

TokyT - the thread and article is about Human rights, and particularly in Thailand, and particularly (as title of article says) - as Washington rates them.

and I was merely pointing out about what are Human rights as a term or especially a tool in foreign policy of powerfull nations. particularly, superpower. because normally if you examine all different media sources, of all countries, who uses this term "Human rights" most of all , and then - for what ? mainly - for certain political pressure.

yes, UN might be oficialy a source. but what is UN after all ?

so, in this regard I think it is relevent showing the "Human rights", its definition, criterias and statistics, as well as sources - don't you agree ?

say, this whole topic is about .... Som Tam (or Tom Yum if you want ) or may be sushi (if you are Japanese)

now, who and how many people in other then Thailand (or Japan) countries knows what is that ?

and if then, if we'd argue about - where Som Tam (or sushi - or whatever else) is better or worse - won't be relevent to mention what is it, where from and what is good or bad Som Tam, and according to whom ?

article might be from Nation, but its content based on info and statistics definetely NOT researched by Nation. and it has clear title, which is like "A rebukes B for C". so, what else is needed? of course Nation is not much interested in HR in those other countries, since it is Thai paper. that's not a point. the title and content of article - is.

and then, what Nation is ? they say - independent newspaper. well, that had to be proved. and even if it is indeed entirely independent and objective (which to my opinion how realy independent opinion must be - not partial), it must reflect all sort of opinions and sources. but normally "independent" means - they mainly capitalise on some mostly sensational pieces of info which are sort of "opposite" to oficial or government's or to particular party or individual controled version.

I doubt there is ANY realy independent (= 100% objective) media source nowdays. despite all the fuss about "free press". strictly speaking, such newpaper or an individual reporter must be realy honest and able to show all alternative opinions or points of view, not just "different form XYZ" and therefore "independent".

yes, sure, at least it is good to have SOME sort of alternative opinions and info - as Nation provides. something is better than nothing, right ? but I won't buy some statistics or reports if it is obvious that they consistently show only one side of picture. and so far I am afraid Nation does so.

anyway, this subject is not about Nation but about HR - right ?

and once again - yes, HR in Thailand could be better (WHERE it won't be ?), but not as bad as elsewhere. and those who try to judge or set the plank - are quite far from perfection themselves.

that's what I tried to say.

[soic]

I'm not going to jump in on this one too far... "Pot calling the Kettle". BS... I know that the US isn't sterling... but for all the secret prisons, and the holding of terror suspects. They aren't taking everyone's grandmothers, they're suspected of mass murder and terrorist acts, not suspected of jay-walking. And Torture... these guys are treated with kid gloves. I know there was the publicized Abu Grab soldiers, shame on them, they were wrong. Let's face it though, they embarrassed and scared the "poor" guys. Has anyone seen the movie clip of the Berg beheading? I believe that there's just a little bit of difference. Has anyone seen a truck completely blown apart by a roadside bomb? I have... I have little pity for the guilty. Those that have been found innocent have been released. Oops! they don't make the big deal of the release, only the part that they were taken... Hmmm!

That report has been coming out for ages from virtually every free country in the world. Everyone has a little dirt on them, Everyone.

[TokyoT]

TokyT - the thread and article is about Human rights, and particularly in Thailand, and particularly (as title of article says) - as Washington rates them.

The thread is about the article, the article is about how The Nation perceives the latest US report in regard to human rights. The Nation picked the title of the article and IMHO has little to due with the actual US report and more to due with sensationalized journalism. I do not think the article is about how Washington rates anything. The US report does not rate/compare countries. The report is a yearly summary by the State Department that outlines how Washington views the current Human Rights status in each country.

My post #19, was directed more in regard to your post #15 than to any of your other posts. I would not disagree that “Human Right” is certainly a political terms and used as a political tool many times. But I think attempting to go down the road of what specifically “Human Rights” means is a rocky path indeed. The US report is certainly going to take a US perspective in regard to what they consider “Human Rights” (even though the report says they are using UN standards for HR in compiling the report), while reports compiled by other entities will have a different perspective.

article might be from Nation, but its content based on info and statistics definetely NOT researched by Nation. and it has clear title, which is like "A rebukes B for C". so, what else is needed? of course Nation is not much interested in HR in those other countries, since it is Thai paper. that's not a point. the title and content of article - is.

What I was attempting to point out is that the Title “Washington slams Thai record” and even the content of the article is shaped by the fact that it is in a Thai newspaper. After reviewing the US report and seeing the differences between how Thailand is represented as compared to other nations of the world IMHO Washing does not slam the Thai record. Sure it is not a glowing report, but the report is not as critical of Thailand as it is of many other nations of the world. So it is not as simple as “A rebukes B for C” because in my opinion A is not rebuking C – but in The Nations opinion they are. The article only points out the negatives of the US report and therefore lacks in perspective not only in regard to HR in Thailand, but in regard to HR in the world. The report points out HR abuses in Canada but the US is not attempting to “slam” Canada for their HR record.

and once again - yes, HR in Thailand could be better (WHERE it won't be ?), but not as bad as elsewhere. and those who try to judge or set the plank - are quite far from perfection themselves.

HR in Thailand could be much better, and with very little effort really. And it is certainly not as bad as elsewhere – I feel the US report actually supports these statements. The report on Thailand is not all negative – as the article would lead most people to believe.

As far as those that try to judge or set the plank – This report is required by US Law, and is certainly used at times as a political tool. But these reports are not comparative reports. They do not say “compared to the US country X is better or worse than the US”. No were in these reports does the US claim to be free from HR abuses.

Actually I do not think we are too far apart in our views on this topic (as it applies to Thailand).

The main thing I take exception to when the topic of US Human Rights Report is mentioned is all the “glass houses”, and "get your things in order first" type of comments. The US is an independent nation, and as such we have every right to shape our foreign policy however we see fit. Note to Thaksin – “The UN is not the father of the US either”. If we want to use our views in regard to HR as part of how we shape our foreign policy or even how we present issues in an international forum (such as the UN), then that is our right as a free and independent nation.

[markee]

Normally I just sit in the background and don't post but this time..............

Arn't the Yanks amazing lecturing anybody on human rights after their shameful history. They invade and steal a country by means of genicide, until recently treat its black citizens as second class and procede to grow into the worlds bully but like all bullies only pick on weaker nations and nations that they can gain financially from.

Human rights in China? They are too powerful and we want to trade with them.

Human rights in Zimbabwe? They have nothing we need.

Human rights in Iraq? They have oil and we can appease the Jewish lobby - let's take action!

Last hols in Pattaya I met a yank who used to call himself Canadian when abroad (not the first). On visiting a war museum in Vietnam and (with several Vietnamese) standing infront of a picture of an American soldier holding up a freshly chopped off Vietnamese head he felt ashamed to be American. This for him was not as the picture indicated i.e. an isolated incident but a general mentality.

This is the tip of the iceberg though and it's not only their overt human rights violations but what is not seen by the public which makes me wonder how a nation like the USA has the cahoonies to lecture anybody on human rights.

[soic]

Normally I just sit in the background and don't post but this time..............

Arn't the Yanks amazing lecturing anybody on human rights after their shameful history. They invade and steal a country by means of genicide, until recently treat its black citizens as second class and procede to grow into the worlds bully but like all bullies only pick on weaker nations and nations that they can gain financially from.

Human rights in China? They are too powerful and we want to trade with them.

Human rights in Zimbabwe? They have nothing we need.

Human rights in Iraq? They have oil and we can appease the Jewish lobby - let's take action!

Last hols in Pattaya I met a yank who used to call himself Canadian when abroad (not the first). On visiting a war museum in Vietnam and (with several Vietnamese) standing infront of a picture of an American soldier holding up a freshly chopped off Vietnamese head he felt ashamed to be American. This for him was not as the picture indicated i.e. an isolated incident but a general mentality.

This is the tip of the iceberg though and it's not only their overt human rights violations but what is not seen by the public which makes me wonder how a nation like the USA has the cahoonies to lecture anybody on human rights.

Markee... Markee...

It was a UN report for one. Second, don't hold back, let the bias and bigotry flow... You painted that picture with such a broad brush and overstated each of your points to such a degree to be lunacy. I can only assume that there were a few beer talking there. Anyway... the bully statement. I for one would love the day that we could stop being the "bully", shut our doors, turn off the financial tap and tell the rest of the world, "don't call us, we'll call you!" I can only do that in my dreams... I would just love that. We're not perfect, nor will we ever be. Should I want to get down and sling mud, I could find flaws in every countries HR policies. No-one is immune... that report was an annual report done by the UN. It pointed out several countries.

[thaibebop]

Normally I just sit in the background and don't post but this time..............

Arn't the Yanks amazing lecturing anybody on human rights after their shameful history. They invade and steal a country by means of genicide, until recently treat its black citizens as second class and procede to grow into the worlds bully but like all bullies only pick on weaker nations and nations that they can gain financially from.

Human rights in China? They are too powerful and we want to trade with them.

Human rights in Zimbabwe? They have nothing we need.

Human rights in Iraq? They have oil and we can appease the Jewish lobby - let's take action!

Last hols in Pattaya I met a yank who used to call himself Canadian when abroad (not the first). On visiting a war museum in Vietnam and (with several Vietnamese) standing infront of a picture of an American soldier holding up a freshly chopped off Vietnamese head he felt ashamed to be American. This for him was not as the picture indicated i.e. an isolated incident but a general mentality.

This is the tip of the iceberg though and it's not only their overt human rights violations but what is not seen by the public which makes me wonder how a nation like the USA has the cahoonies to lecture anybody on human rights.

Markee... Markee...

It was a UN report for one. Second, don't hold back, let the bias and bigotry flow... You painted that picture with such a broad brush and overstated each of your points to such a degree to be lunacy. I can only assume that there were a few beer talking there. Anyway... the bully statement. I for one would love the day that we could stop being the "bully", shut our doors, turn off the financial tap and tell the rest of the world, "don't call us, we'll call you!" I can only do that in my dreams... I would just love that. We're not perfect, nor will we ever be. Should I want to get down and sling mud, I could find flaws in every countries HR policies. No-one is immune... that report was an annual report done by the UN. It pointed out several countries.

Don't bother, we are the enemy and big brother that everyone wants to pull down. I vote for isolation as well.

And as for the Yanks who lie about who they are, shame on them. My people (Americans) haven't fought the battles we have here and at home to lie about who and what we are to the rest of the world and these people should be shamed.

I will call myself an American even with my enemies gun at my head.

[jdinasia]

Actually it WAS a US report to Congress .... yes we allow the public access to those reports. No big deal ... like I said befoore ... people in the US particularly our legislators need information about places they will never go.

If it offends you that the US looks at other countries and makes distinctions about the state of Human Rights ... too bad! Take a look at what the US reports say about the US.

For someone to worry about the ancient history of the US in regards to this story is kind of besides the point ... because then we'd have to discuss the totality of the US involvement in the world.

[jdinasia]

Thaibebop .... hel_l I'd be tempted to lie about being a yank because of W .... but I don't ... just can't pussy out that way.

[zzap]

...I know there was the publicized Abu Grab soldiers, shame on them, they were wrong. Let's face it though, they embarrassed and scared the "poor" guys. ...

Your second sentence belies the first one. You make it sound like a trivial thing.

Has anyone seen the movie clip of the Berg beheading? I believe that there's just a little bit of difference.

There sure is, but why do you always need to compare yourselves to the worst to look good?

[thaibebop]

Thaibebop .... hel_l I'd be tempted to lie about being a yank because of W .... but I don't ... just can't pussy out that way.

I can understand why you feel that way and I commend you for sticking to your guns. America is more than Bush, any other president or the government. Being an American means you hold certain truths to be self-evident. It's protecting ideals that are foundation for human dreams the world over. There is no shame in this.

[jdinasia]

*cough* *cough* I rather imagine being an American means about 300 million things ... something different to each person.

Not to mention what it means to the rest of the world

[jdinasia]

*cough* *cough* I rather imagine being an American means about 300 million things ... something different to each person.

Not to mention what it means to the rest of the world

[thaibebop]

*cough* *cough* I rather imagine being an American means about 300 million things ... something different to each person.

Not to mention what it means to the rest of the world

I think it can be simplified. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, i.e. private property. People make it more complex or try to redefine, or even change completely what has been set down for their own power and not of the good of eveyone. Like the KKK saying that America is white, not true, just what they want. Like Americans saying that America is a Christian country, not true, just what they want.

[penzman]

Normally I just sit in the background and don't post but this time..............

Arn't the Yanks amazing lecturing anybody on human rights after their shameful history. They invade and steal a country by means of genicide, until recently treat its black citizens as second class and procede to grow into the worlds bully but like all bullies only pick on weaker nations and nations that they can gain financially from.

Human rights in China? They are too powerful and we want to trade with them.

Human rights in Zimbabwe? They have nothing we need.

Human rights in Iraq? They have oil and we can appease the Jewish lobby - let's take action!

Last hols in Pattaya I met a yank who used to call himself Canadian when abroad (not the first). On visiting a war museum in Vietnam and (with several Vietnamese) standing infront of a picture of an American soldier holding up a freshly chopped off Vietnamese head he felt ashamed to be American. This for him was not as the picture indicated i.e. an isolated incident but a general mentality.

This is the tip of the iceberg though and it's not only their overt human rights violations but what is not seen by the public which makes me wonder how a nation like the USA has the cahoonies to lecture anybody on human rights.

Doesn't that make him a .... TERRORIST?

[soic]

zzap

Of course my 2nd sentence "belied" the first one. I didn't expect to trivialize the Abu Grab, the were wrong to do that. I just tried to compare it, "torture" for "torture". Was it necessary to compare it to the Berg atrocity to make us look good? No... but When you compare what the world called "American Torture" to what "Terrorist Torture" is, wouldn't you agree that there is a difference.

If they were to be rated from 1 - 100. Where do you honestly think that Abu Grab would relate to the levels of Terrorist Torture. We get spanked for hurt feelings and embarrassment, and they decapitate, purposely slaughter, hide behind children, TARGET civilians and the stinking news calls them freedom fighters or just insurgents. Give me a break

[jdinasia]

Soic ... come to Thailand ... loosen up some!

[sriracha john]

Soic ... come to Thailand ... loosen up some!

*phew*... thanks jdinasia... I was beginning to think I had somehow stumbled upon the americanvisa.com forum.

[zzap]

zzap

Of course my 2nd sentence "belied" the first one. I didn't expect to trivialize the Abu Grab, the were wrong to do that. I just tried to compare it, "torture" for "torture". Was it necessary to compare it to the Berg atrocity to make us look good? No... but When you compare what the world called "American Torture" to what "Terrorist Torture" is, wouldn't you agree that there is a difference.

If they were to be rated from 1 - 100. Where do you honestly think that Abu Grab would relate to the levels of Terrorist Torture. We get spanked for hurt feelings and embarrassment, and they decapitate, purposely slaughter, hide behind children, TARGET civilians and the stinking news calls them freedom fighters or just insurgents. Give me a break

The point here is, that both incidences are human right violations, both sitting on the same scale, as you readily pointed out. I already agreed that there is a huge difference in the actual rating.

Also, an important difference is, nations such as the US, or Thailand, can be pressurised to some extend to at least reduce these practices and prosecute the worst offenders (which in effect usually means the lower ranks, not the high-rank enablers and facilitators).

[soic]

Sorry everybody! Didn't mean to blast away. It's just the old "anti-American" thing gets old sometimes. I ignore it a lot, it just wears thin sometimes. I realize we're a big target for any and every slam that comes down the pike. My philosophy has always been, join our team, or play against us, just don't coach from the cheap seats.

I get to go home for the first week in Apr. I land at 1800 am going straight to my hotel, and it will be beer-thirty. I plan to relax as much as possible.

[jdinasia]

Soic ... come to Thailand ... loosen up some!

*phew*... thanks jdinasia... I was beginning to think I had somehow stumbled upon the americanvisa.com forum.

John .... the world is full of idiots ....

It just seems like in here the USA thing polarizes people .... I mean we have people that cannot actually READ reports ... and then we have people that think they can speak for EVERYONE of a specific nationality etc etc