Liverpool F.c.

[StevieH]

How well did this "Tika Taka play" work for Swansea?

Where did this on average 55% per game posession get them?

44 goals and 11th place in the league is where. Not exactly setting the world on fire, is it?

Surely the secret is to get some consistancy and cohesion with the players you have, instead of change this and change that all the time. This has been the mantra, almost since about 2004, and for various reasons. In which time we've fallen further and further behind, and even been overtaken by the likes of Spurs, Newcastle...Everton, even. We finished level on points with Fulham <deleted>.

And now its "All change, please" yet again.

Wouldnt it be better to adapt a system around the players that you have, instead of trying to adapt players around a system, and if some players dont look like they will "fit in to" the system being inposed, then out they go and new ones brought in to replace?

Too much change over too long a period has been the problem at the club. NOT the style of play, IMO

Penkoprod

swansea don't play 'tiki taka', it's one of those lazy misnomers that gets thrown about by journalists. they have aped barcelona's high up the pitch pressuring and they do look to move the ball around in triangles in midfield in a 4-3-3 system. that's what rodgers appears to like and it's a pretty progressive way of playing.

don't downplay their achievements last season though. 11th place for a newly promoted team with no budget and some major big club scalps at home was amazing stuff.

[Abrak]

One change I wouldn't mind is Allen for Adam.

in a heartbeat.

rumours gathering pace about carroll though, which is weird. be mad if we're about to take a 15m loss on him and madder still if we loan him out. it's possible that rodgers simply doesn't fancy him though.

I've been saying these for a while now I cant see Carroll fitting BR plans...but lets see.

BR has talked the talk so far but I am really waiting to see how patient and determined he is to impose his system if results don't go our way early on, the pressure will be massive! Carrol who has found form is exactly who you need if you need a plan B in games - we still needed an extra striker anyway so if Carroll goes we need x2 to come in!

Yep I can see Allen coming in if BR has his way ( seems a nobrainer for me) if the clubs can agree terms- which might be the issue.

The most interesting one for me is Aqualani who you imagined would never be coming back but surely this is his best chance if he has any desires of making a career now. His technical ability, vision and passing is exactly made for Tika Taka play.I kept an eye on him and watched a few games of Serie A and he always looked good for Milan and they have a quality midfield already.

Bellamy always said he came back literally because of Kenny, which gives us another problem to replace him if he goes, he was a great buy for his ability, experience and price.

Gerrard will not play every game, Lucas will take time and then we have the Europa - so is Allen enough? No chance!

Looks quite likely that Bellamy is going to head back to Cardiff (which is a shame) and what with Kuyt gone, Maxi almost certain to leave and Carroll quite possibly on the way that leaves us very short up front. I presume Borini is coming. I suspect there is something to the rumors about Dempsey (although he plays midfield - probably could play upfront in a 433) mostly because he is bound to move (1 year left on his contract) and we appear to be red hot favorites (1-5 on) to acquire him. Not convinced we are going to acquire anyone from Swansea - Rodgers is supposed to have an agreement not to acquire any players off the club for 12 months.

[StevieH]

Not convinced we are going to acquire anyone from Swansea - Rodgers is supposed to have an agreement not to acquire any players off the club for 12 months.

no, apparently it's that he won't actively approach the club for a player. however that means that if a player there requests a transfer or another club bids for a player then we can go in. i like joe allen a lot, really good little player already and going to get better.

[alfieconn]

One change I wouldn't mind is Allen for Adam.

in a heartbeat.

rumours gathering pace about carroll though, which is weird. be mad if we're about to take a 15m loss on him and madder still if we loan him out. it's possible that rodgers simply doesn't fancy him though.

I've been saying these for a while now I cant see Carroll fitting BR plans...but lets see.

BR has talked the talk so far but I am really waiting to see how patient and determined he is to impose his system if results don't go our way early on, the pressure will be massive! Carrol who has found form is exactly who you need if you need a plan B in games - we still needed an extra striker anyway so if Carroll goes we need x2 to come in!

Yep I can see Allen coming in if BR has his way ( seems a nobrainer for me) if the clubs can agree terms- which might be the issue.

The most interesting one for me is Aqualani who you imagined would never be coming back but surely this is his best chance if he has any desires of making a career now. His technical ability, vision and passing is exactly made for Tika Taka play.I kept an eye on him and watched a few games of Serie A and he always looked good for Milan and they have a quality midfield already.

Bellamy always said he came back literally because of Kenny, which gives us another problem to replace him if he goes, he was a great buy for his ability, experience and price.

Gerrard will not play every game, Lucas will take time and then we have the Europa - so is Allen enough? No chance!

Looks quite likely that Bellamy is going to head back to Cardiff (which is a shame) and what with Kuyt gone, Maxi almost certain to leave and Carroll quite possibly on the way that leaves us very short up front. I presume Borini is coming. I suspect there is something to the rumors about Dempsey (although he plays midfield - probably could play upfront in a 433) mostly because he is bound to move (1 year left on his contract) and we appear to be red hot favorites (1-5 on) to acquire him. Not convinced we are going to acquire anyone from Swansea - Rodgers is supposed to have an agreement not to acquire any players off the club for 12 months.

Dempsey is a forward !!!!

[sharecropper]

Surprised you're letting him go to to be honest. Both he and Kuyt always looked dangerous when they came on, especially as impact subs.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2171969/Craig-Bellamy-set-Cardiff-City-return.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Out of interest, what happened to the high wages he was on at City, which were presumably also paid by City when he was on loan at Cardiff? What were Liverpool paying him per week?

[StevieH]

Surprised you're letting him go to to be honest. Both he and Kuyt always looked dangerous when they came on, especially as impact subs.

http://www.dailymail...o=feeds-newsxml

Out of interest, what happened to the high wages he was on at City, which were presumably also paid by City when he was on loan at Cardiff? What were Liverpool paying him per week?

he just really wants to go to cardiff apparently. and rodgers is disappointed with it. but he can't be relied on due to his knees unfortunately. we're paying him about 60k by all accounts. similar to what he was on at city i think, he was never on mental money there.

[StevieH]

Dempsey is a forward !!!!

attacking midfielder/forward. he's not a line-leading striker is he?

[alfieconn]

Dempsey is a forward !!!!

attacking midfielder/forward. he's not a line-leading striker is he?

No, did i say he was ?

Edited July 12, 2012 by alfieconn

[JacknDanny]

Surprised you're letting him go to to be honest. Both he and Kuyt always looked dangerous when they came on, especially as impact subs.

http://www.dailymail...o=feeds-newsxml

Out of interest, what happened to the high wages he was on at City, which were presumably also paid by City when he was on loan at Cardiff? What were Liverpool paying him per week?

he just really wants to go to cardiff apparently. and rodgers is disappointed with it. but he can't be relied on due to his knees unfortunately. we're paying him about 60k by all accounts. similar to what he was on at city i think, he was never on mental money there.

90k/week

[Abrak]

Surprised you're letting him go to to be honest. Both he and Kuyt always looked dangerous when they came on, especially as impact subs.

http://www.dailymail...o=feeds-newsxml

Out of interest, what happened to the high wages he was on at City, which were presumably also paid by City when he was on loan at Cardiff? What were Liverpool paying him per week?

he just really wants to go to cardiff apparently. and rodgers is disappointed with it. but he can't be relied on due to his knees unfortunately. we're paying him about 60k by all accounts. similar to what he was on at city i think, he was never on mental money there.

He was definitely on quite a bit more at City - more like 90k I think - but City paid him a lump sum and released him from his contract on the last day of the window so that he could join Liverpool. I doubt it was much because I remember Kenny saying he had made financial sacrifices to come to the club.

[Devil]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2012/07/13/liverpool-fc-agree-11million-fee-with-roma-for-fabio-borini-100252-31385026/

Borini done 11 M

[nev]

http://www.liverpool...00252-31385026/

Borini done 11 M

The new Aqualani and please put NSFW when posting a link to that site

[Devil]

BTW the 'keeping hold of the ball' argument is supported by the tight correlation between pass completion stats (particularly pass completion in the final third) and league position of the top clubs. Chelsea's final third pass completion is relatively poor.

Tomkins times

The stand-out figures for Swansea came in their passing numbers; from the top five European leagues, only Barcelona (with 88.5% pass accuracy), Bayern Munich (86.3%) and the English champions Manchester City (85.9%) had a better pass success rate last season than Swansea (85.7%) did.

At the same time though, the Swans were guilty of retaining the ball a little too much in their own half; they had the lowest percentage of their actions (22%) in the attacking third of any Premier League side this season, and they made more passes per shot attempted (62) than any side too (Fulham were next with 45). That said, as a newly promoted team, their primary aim in most games would be to avoid defeat, so retaining the ball was an eminently sensible strategy.

[Abrak]

BTW the 'keeping hold of the ball' argument is supported by the tight correlation between pass completion stats (particularly pass completion in the final third) and league position of the top clubs. Chelsea's final third pass completion is relatively poor.

Tomkins times

The stand-out figures for Swansea came in their passing numbers; from the top five European leagues, only Barcelona (with 88.5% pass accuracy), Bayern Munich (86.3%) and the English champions Manchester City (85.9%) had a better pass success rate last season than Swansea (85.7%) did.

At the same time though, the Swans were guilty of retaining the ball a little too much in their own half; they had the lowest percentage of their actions (22%) in the attacking third of any Premier League side this season, and they made more passes per shot attempted (62) than any side too (Fulham were next with 45). That said, as a newly promoted team, their primary aim in most games would be to avoid defeat, so retaining the ball was an eminently sensible strategy.

Actually the key point about Swansea is hinted at in your second point and clearly illustrated in the chart below. This shows the 'percentage of completed passes' in the 'final third' compared to all the other clubs in the PL.

What you can see is that Swansea's is lowest by a factor in 'percentage terms' of a third. Essentially what Swansea did is use their advantage in possession to recycle the ball within their own half of the pitch. This also accounts for their 'massively high' pass completion rate because pass completion rates in the final third are always much lower and they have a low percentage in the final third (see original chart.) (It also explains why Leon Britton's pass completion rate is higher than Xavi's which would be an interesting answer if you knew the question.)

So to some extent we have to take Rodger 'attacking possession football' with a pinch of salt as at Swansea he used possession fairly defensively. It is quite a challenge to translate that into attacking possession. He was incredibly effective though with almost no resources. Seems to me like a long term plan.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Abrak

[StevieH]

http://www.liverpool...00252-31385026/

Borini done 11 M

7.9m GBP. which seems a decent price for a 21 year old italian international.

[Jimjim]

Looks quite likely that Bellamy is going to head back to Cardiff (which is a shame) and what with Kuyt gone, Maxi almost certain to leave and Carroll quite possibly on the way that leaves us very short up front. I presume Borini is coming. I suspect there is something to the rumors about Dempsey (although he plays midfield - probably could play upfront in a 433) mostly because he is bound to move (1 year left on his contract) and we appear to be red hot favorites (1-5 on) to acquire him. Not convinced we are going to acquire anyone from Swansea - Rodgers is supposed to have an agreement not to acquire any players off the club for 12 months.

Dempsey is a forward !!!!

I agree, Dempsey played much of his time up front in the U.S. and does at times for the national team.

He does seem to be best as an attacking winger who cuts inside and no, he couldn't "probably" play up front in a 4-3-3 he could "definitely" play up front as one of those 3 men, obviously. Abrak you seemed to be saying he played as a midfielder such as in the center, which really isn't his position, at all.

I like the Borini signing. Stevie where are you getting 7.9 from, though?

[StevieH]

I like the Borini signing. Stevie where are you getting 7.9 from, though?

press association via the guardian and a number of others: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jul/13/liverpool-brendan-rodgers-fabio-borini

[rijit]

Not convinced we are going to acquire anyone from Swansea - Rodgers is supposed to have an agreement not to acquire any players off the club for 12 months.

no, apparently it's that he won't actively approach the club for a player. however that means that if a player there requests a transfer or another club bids for a player then we can go in. i like joe allen a lot, really good little player already and going to get better.

It might be a coincidence but I read that Sinclair at Swansea had talks that weren't concluded about a new/extended contract.

Rodgers has had this boy at 2or 3 clubs. Would be a great buy. or maybe he's happy with Downing as your only pacy wide man

something tells me not though.

Edited July 15, 2012 by rijit

[StevieH]

Not convinced we are going to acquire anyone from Swansea - Rodgers is supposed to have an agreement not to acquire any players off the club for 12 months.

no, apparently it's that he won't actively approach the club for a player. however that means that if a player there requests a transfer or another club bids for a player then we can go in. i like joe allen a lot, really good little player already and going to get better.

It might be a coincidence but I read that Sinclair at Swansea had talks that weren't concluded about a new/extended contract.

Rodgers has had this boy at 2or 3 clubs. Would be a great buy. or maybe he's happy with Downing as your only pacy wide man

something tells me not though.

i don't see rodgers liking downing at all really. not dynamic or direct enough, not good at the one-touch stuff, also a massive coward.

[brit1984]

BTW the 'keeping hold of the ball' argument is supported by the tight correlation between pass completion stats (particularly pass completion in the final third) and league position of the top clubs. Chelsea's final third pass completion is relatively poor.

Tomkins times

The stand-out figures for Swansea came in their passing numbers; from the top five European leagues, only Barcelona (with 88.5% pass accuracy), Bayern Munich (86.3%) and the English champions Manchester City (85.9%) had a better pass success rate last season than Swansea (85.7%) did.

At the same time though, the Swans were guilty of retaining the ball a little too much in their own half; they had the lowest percentage of their actions (22%) in the attacking third of any Premier League side this season, and they made more passes per shot attempted (62) than any side too (Fulham were next with 45). That said, as a newly promoted team, their primary aim in most games would be to avoid defeat, so retaining the ball was an eminently sensible strategy.

Actually the key point about Swansea is hinted at in your second point and clearly illustrated in the chart below. This shows the 'percentage of completed passes' in the 'final third' compared to all the other clubs in the PL.

What you can see is that Swansea's is lowest by a factor in 'percentage terms' of a third. Essentially what Swansea did is use their advantage in possession to recycle the ball within their own half of the pitch. This also accounts for their 'massively high' pass completion rate because pass completion rates in the final third are always much lower and they have a low percentage in the final third (see original chart.) (It also explains why Leon Britton's pass completion rate is higher than Xavi's which would be an interesting answer if you knew the question.)

So to some extent we have to take Rodger 'attacking possession football' with a pinch of salt as at Swansea he used possession fairly defensively. It is quite a challenge to translate that into attacking possession. He was incredibly effective though with almost no resources. Seems to me like a long term plan.

I agree with your general point that Rodgers' Swansea side were very focused on defensive possession rather than relentless attacking, and this does worry me that a similar style will leave us (like always) struggling to get wins against sides that play for a draw against us. I do however think this will make us a difficult to side to play against if and when we take the lead and a difficult side to beat (and hence we should continue to be a strong cup side).

Edited July 15, 2012 by brit1984

[rijit]

Not convinced we are going to acquire anyone from Swansea - Rodgers is supposed to have an agreement not to acquire any players off the club for 12 months.

no, apparently it's that he won't actively approach the club for a player. however that means that if a player there requests a transfer or another club bids for a player then we can go in. i like joe allen a lot, really good little player already and going to get better.

It might be a coincidence but I read that Sinclair at Swansea had talks that weren't concluded about a new/extended contract.

Rodgers has had this boy at 2or 3 clubs. Would be a great buy. or maybe he's happy with Downing as your only pacy wide man

something tells me not though.

i don't see rodgers liking downing at all really. not dynamic or direct enough, not good at the one-touch stuff, also a massive coward.

Think your being harsh on Downing, Always seems willing to stand up and have a go he's quick enuf, but not really been used in the best way IMO It aint just coincidence that downing had a great season at villa with young who's more or less carried that form on at man utd, Wide men operate best a pairs jones medwin best morgan, lennon bale, it's sort of weird wingers dont have much contact but play one without the other and they almost look out of place, probably excludes best. but get another winger and, imo you'll see a 'better' downing

Edited July 15, 2012 by rijit

[nellyp]

If i were Rodgers i'd be pissed off with my bosses for letting another team sign Sigurdsson. Heres a guy, 22 years old who's worked very well with BR at Swansea and they just let another clubcome in and sign him.

I'm delighted we have him but a bit bemused that it happened.

Well sounds to me that it was Rodgers decision not to match Spurs offer.

"I knew what the market was and I wasn't prepared to pay anything over what I had known was agreed before."

i think it just means he has a wage in mind for that kind of player and we weren't prepared to pay him daft money. gylfi's a tidy little player but 60k a week? nah.

Keep convincing yourself why don't you! He's a tidy little player with far more effective stats than the other overpaid journeymen bought by LFC. The only coach in the country that rates Henderson, who's a sunday league player and downing is the england manager so there you go. The description of a "tidy little player' is a very condersending description on your part mate to paper over the obvious that it was a stupid decision not to buy him.

The other ofcourse is that Liverpool is a club very much in decline and without direction owned by americans who don't even understand how to conduct themselves in footballing negotiations and appear to fail to do their homework either.

But i digress..................

Carmine you are a <deleted>

[nellyp]

I read this post to say that he would be in your optimum team

Posted 2012-06-19 13:52:28

Abs said : Seems like Sigurdsson will almost certainly come in which looks like a good signing especially as he seems to have some goals in him

or perhaps he wouldn't

The only slight problem I would say with Sigurdsson for Liverpool is that he occupies a position that isnt a particularly high priority to strengthen at the moment. I imagine from the papers that he is going to Tottenham

And you call me a dummy !

Look Alfie I dont know where you are confused. It is obvious that Rodgers wanted him at a 'price'. He obviously knows him well so I am pretty well prepared to stand behind that judgment. It also seems pretty clear that Rodgers doesnt want him if the price is too high (either because the player is too expensive in general or, in my opinion, becomes a bit of a luxury given the options we have in the current position.) Either way, I am pretty happy to bide by Rodgers decision on a player that he has worked with at two different clubs and knows very well.

As it happens I am not saying that Spurs are paying too much for Sig, simply that I dont think that Sig is worth as much to Rodgers at Liverpool as he probably was to Rodgers at Swansea. If Liverpool get Ramirez that would only serve to emphasize the point because I doubt we could afford both.

And really Alfie... you and Carmine can go on telling me that Rodgers is stupid for not paying up for Sig because I am happy in the knowledge that you are both confident in that you know the value of the player far better than he does and infinitely better than Hoffenheim.

This makes absolute sense. Our manager has worked with him before, knows what he can do and therefore his value to the Liverpool team. if he feels the money being spent was to much for value gained then he would obviously be right to turn say no. If he was after that particular player and that player was the only one available then i think a team would pay over the price, however this is not the case, so bye bye

[carmine]

You tell yourself that if it makes you happy.

[nellyp]

One change I wouldn't mind is Allen for Adam.

in a heartbeat.

rumours gathering pace about carroll though, which is weird. be mad if we're about to take a 15m loss on him and madder still if we loan him out. it's possible that rodgers simply doesn't fancy him though.

loan him out. if he comes into form he'll mess up a load of other teams (don't let him play against us), bring him back in form and use him as plan B

[carmine]

Too much speculative talk about Carroll. He should stay and Rodgers should work to improve him. He's also carrying over some decent form from last season.

I will be watching Borini closely because this is definately one of the more interesting buys. Rodgers has worked with him before as you all know so if he proves as good as Rodgers think he will be then you have done a fabulous piece of business. I'd also argue that at 7.9m in todays market you can't go wrong on a striker. If he can remind Suarez to kick the ball between the posts what a bonus that would be.

[Jimjim]

I like the Borini signing. Stevie where are you getting 7.9 from, though?

press association via the guardian and a number of others: http://www.guardian....rs-fabio-borini

Just seems weird the various figures thrown about. I saw one that said 10.4 million pounds.

(edit) Actually, according to Roma the fee is 13.3 million Euro.

http://www.asroma.it...ws.html?id=5836

http://www.asroma.it...2012_BORINI.pdf

Used google translate as it's Italian, obviously, but that would be more like 10.4 million pounds or so.

By the way, did we just give Maxi away? I didn't see any reports about any quoted fees or anything like that. It sounded like he just left on a free transfer, which would not be right considering his record for us.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Jimjim

[smokie36]

You tell yourself that if it makes you happy.

I simply assumed he preferred to play for a top four club.

[radster2212]

As a hammer I'd be happy if we signed Carroll on loan get him fit for you next season.

[alfieconn]

As a hammer I'd be happy if we signed Carroll on loan get him fit for you next season.

Yeah, should fit in well with your style of play