Having lived in Islamic countries for nearly 30 years and having many Muslim friends, let me state the huge majority of Muslims are peace loving people. Having said that, there are also quite a few that are not as peace loving as the majority.

Doing a little Googling has now informed me that something between 1% and 7% of Muslims are considered extremists.

Further to that, doing a little math I come up with the following conclusion.

1. There are 1.6 BILLION Muslims in the world.

2. Taking the lowest figure of 1% and applying that to 1.6 Billion gives me 16 MILLION extremists.

3. Taking into consideration that 25% of them would not carry out a terrorist attack in any event, I am left with 12 Million potential soldiers.

4. This 12 million potential soldiers is more than the combined active duty personnel of the 10 largest armies in the world...combined.

5. Now by taking out the females and children, let's say that males make up only 25% of the 12 Million extremist soldiers.

6. That leaves us with a grand total of 3 Million potential soldiers, which is 750,000 soldiers more than the total active duty personnel of the People's Republic of China military.

And none of them will be willing to sit down around a campfire and roast marshmallows with a non-believer.

A lot less than 1% of the Muslims I know are extremists. None of the pubs in KL have been blown up in the time I've been here, to the best of my knowledge. Certainly, none of the ones I go to. Try re-running your figures with one in a million.

What proportion of Christians are Extemists?

SC

 

Ahem.....so how many hundreds or thousands of muslims DO you know well enough to know if they are extremists or not ?

on the odd chance you havnt done your math, 1% is 1/100

I know well over 100 muslims, and none of them are extremists. I have never been accorsted by a muslim extremist while sitting on my own in the street drinking, I have never been berated by a muslim taxi driver, in all the many hundreds of such that I have taken. I have never seen any evidence of muslim extremism in the years that I have spent in muslim countries. So I reckon 1% is a gross exaggeration.

I've had a friend who was knifed by a white fella, though.

SC

Here's a link that highlights what's so great about our countries

http://www.scotlandrl.com/article/9872/szostak-relishing-world-cup

A chap of Polish descent who;s delighted to be representing Scotland on the world stage. And we have chaps that wer might call pakis fronting our cricket team, the English Union team is packed with descendents of our South Seas empire.

But what must remain clear is that when our differences amongst our fellow countrymen cause strife, it is the strife that is the problem, not the differences. We need to learn to live with our differences

SC

Out of interest, can anyone suggest any reason why two English boys might think that the murder of a soldier in England might influence the policy regarding our military service in Iraq and Afghanistan, when so many soldiers are being killed there?

I can only conclude that the real intention was to stir up sectarian hatred within the united kingdom. Feel free to help them, if you support their objectives

SC

I can only conclude that the real intention was to stir up sectarian hatred within the united kingdom. Feel free to help them, if you support their objectives

SC

Indeed, SC.

I said something very similar in the now closed topic in news. Only to face a barrage of abuse claiming I was trying to absolve the murderers and that I in some way supported their actions.

One poster even called me a hypocrite for extending my sympathy to Drummer Rigby's family!

I'm afraid that you may now receive similar mindless abuse.

If this thread had started off "Young man knifed to death in Woolwich" it may have attracted significantly different comments.

But to be honest that's a somewhat fatuous comment, as this was not a purely criminal murder as your headline would suggest.

Terrorism is a very distinct and politically driven animal.

In Ulster a non terrorist event was termed as ODC (ordinary decent criminal) to highlight the distinction.

Also please can we move on from the EDL and its "erudite" self appointed, petty criminal and drunken dingbat "leader" of many names and no morals. A specimen with a long charge sheet covering drug dealing, money laundering, assaulting his wife (delicious irony when he accuse Islam of sanctioning wife beating), assaulting a police officer and common assault of one of his henchmen. Born of Irish immigrants, in a community infamous for its logistic and financial support of PIRA terrorism, this toe rag then became an illegal immigrant into the USA in order to sit at the feet of his islamophobe mentors ( and hopefully get gullible Tea Party types to fund his lifestyle).

Dingbat's "eloquence" is merely a case of parroting lines learnt from the likes of Geller and Spencer. Reminds me of some other folk....

Ok how about

"75 year old man knifed in the back in Birmingham" ??

Does that not deserve some attention?

Every death ( and in particular violent ones) is a tragedy and worthy of attention. Sadly there are about 200 knife murders a year in the UK and the murder of Mohammed Chaudury appears to be another. Whether there was a racist motive behind the killing is still not proven.

The Woolwich murder of Lee Rigby was a premeditated, terrorist attack on a serving soldier. The political motivation was clear from the accompanying rant caught on camera, which we will probably hear more of when the 2 scumbags come to court.

Only because its been proven that the Woolwich murder was done by these two but it seems pretty clear that this was not your "run of the mill" drunken lout knifing and to try and make it so is disingenous

And I should note that if this thread even begins to take the same turn as the last I will close it lickety split so mind yourselves when posting.

Indeed, a 75 year old man on his way home from the mosque knifed in the back in an unprovoked attack by a white man.

If that wasn't racially motivated, what is?

No excuse for either of these horrendous crimes.

Life would be very boring and discussion forums would be dead if we all had the same opinions and views

Indeed, a 75 year old man on his way home from the mosque knifed in the back in an unprovoked attack by a white man.

If that wasn't racially motivated, what is?

No excuse for either of these horrendous crimes.

Just seen this on crime watch and no mention he was white, in fact from CCTV he looked Asian

So maybe an attack on faith or different Islamic views .. Or routing out the extremists and paid the price

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/30/far-right-day-demonstrations-england

The EDL and the BNP plan demonstrations across England to exploit the Woolwich murder. So far the police have taken a fairly tough line with them; I hope this continues.

 

 

Having lived in Islamic countries for nearly 30 years and having many Muslim friends, let me state the huge majority of Muslims are peace loving people. Having said that, there are also quite a few that are not as peace loving as the majority.

Doing a little Googling has now informed me that something between 1% and 7% of Muslims are considered extremists.

Further to that, doing a little math I come up with the following conclusion.

1. There are 1.6 BILLION Muslims in the world.

2. Taking the lowest figure of 1% and applying that to 1.6 Billion gives me 16 MILLION extremists.

3. Taking into consideration that 25% of them would not carry out a terrorist attack in any event, I am left with 12 Million potential soldiers.

4. This 12 million potential soldiers is more than the combined active duty personnel of the 10 largest armies in the world...combined.

5. Now by taking out the females and children, let's say that males make up only 25% of the 12 Million extremist soldiers.

6. That leaves us with a grand total of 3 Million potential soldiers, which is 750,000 soldiers more than the total active duty personnel of the People's Republic of China military.

And none of them will be willing to sit down around a campfire and roast marshmallows with a non-believer.

A lot less than 1% of the Muslims I know are extremists. None of the pubs in KL have been blown up in the time I've been here, to the best of my knowledge. Certainly, none of the ones I go to. Try re-running your figures with one in a million.

What proportion of Christians are Extemists?

SC

 

Ahem.....so how many hundreds or thousands of muslims DO you know well enough to know if they are extremists or not ?

on the odd chance you havnt done your math, 1% is 1/100

I know well over 100 muslims, and none of them are extremists. I have never been accorsted by a muslim extremist while sitting on my own in the street drinking, I have never been berated by a muslim taxi driver, in all the many hundreds of such that I have taken. I have never seen any evidence of muslim extremism in the years that I have spent in muslim countries. So I reckon 1% is a gross exaggeration.

I've had a friend who was knifed by a white fella, though.

SC

 

In order to make it 'a lot less than 1%'

-you will need to know at least 500, since knowing just 100 makes it precisely 1%

Indeed, a 75 year old man on his way home from the mosque knifed in the back in an unprovoked attack by a white man.

If that wasn't racially motivated, what is?

No excuse for either of these horrendous crimes.

Just seen this on crime watch and no mention he was white, in fact from CCTV he looked Asian

So maybe an attack on faith or different Islamic views .. Or routing out the extremists and paid the price

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

I didn't see Crimewatch, and am talking about the murder of Mohammed Saleem

Officers said they want to trace a white man, aged 25 to 32, of medium height and build, caught on camera running near the scene around 10.30pm, the time of the attack.

This article in The Guardian contains some very valid points.

After Woolwich, we should not 'Prevent' certain views, but engage with them

For example

The pattern is clear. Alienated, vulnerable young men gain status and self-respect in extremist groups. Through their impatience for change, rather than grand conspiracy, they become murderers. Woolwich appears to fit that pattern, but so too do the Norwegian neo-Nazi Anders Breivik and the 40 British far-right extremists convicted of terrorist and violent offences recently and over past decades.

and

Let's set out a consistent stance against all extremism. The EDL and the Islamist extremists seem to need each other. See them as a common enemy and don't single out one community as the problem. We need to show the vulnerable our willingness to engage and debate with difficult ideas and uncomfortable challenges. We have laws to deal with hate and incitement; beyond that, suppression of things we don't want to hear will make things worse.

This article in The Guardian contains some very valid points.

After Woolwich, we should not 'Prevent' certain views, but engage with them

For example

The pattern is clear. Alienated, vulnerable young men gain status and self-respect in extremist groups. Through their impatience for change, rather than grand conspiracy, they become murderers. Woolwich appears to fit that pattern, but so too do the Norwegian neo-Nazi Anders Breivik and the 40 British far-right extremists convicted of terrorist and violent offences recently and over past decades.

and

>

Let's set out a consistent stance against all extremism. The EDL and the Islamist extremists seem to need each other. See them as a common enemy and don't single out one community as the problem. We need to show the vulnerable our willingness to engage and debate with difficult ideas and uncomfortable challenges. We have laws to deal with hate and incitement; beyond that, suppression of things we don't want to hear will make things worse.

The same pressures drive young lads to gangsterism and general thuggish anti-social behaviour. Let's hope that the police can have the same level of success as they did in tackling football violence 30 - 40 years ago; although perhaps the Premier League achieved more than the police did, by raising ticket prices and televising more games!

SC

Indeed, SC; the alarming rise in gang related violence and killings in the UK over recent years is another symptom of this problem.

Meanwhile;

Woolwich attack: Lee Rigby wouldn't have wanted his name used to attack others, say family

Not that Yaxley-Lennon, Harris, Robinson or whatever name he chooses to use today and his EDL thugs will take any notice; unfortunately.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/30/far-right-day-demonstrations-england

The EDL and the BNP plan demonstrations across England to exploit the Woolwich murder. So far the police have taken a fairly tough line with them; I hope this continues.

Perhaps they can arrest a few more tweeters and put the backs up of even more UK citizens. A heavy handed police approach plays right into the hands of the extremists.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3670/post_woolwich_arrests_violate_human_rights_principles

Indeed, SC; the alarming rise in gang related violence and killings in the UK over recent years is another symptom of this problem.

Meanwhile;

Woolwich attack: Lee Rigby wouldn't have wanted his name used to attack others, say family

Not that Yaxley-Lennon, Harris, Robinson or whatever name he chooses to use today and his EDL thugs will take any notice; unfortunately.

It's funny how leftist diversionary tactics forget to mention the huge piles of dirty laundry belonging to UAF (Sic).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2333039/Woolwich-terror-suspect-Michael-Adebolajos-rant-rally-incite-youngsters.html

The accused was previously filmed at a 'hope not hate' demo, they are associated with UAF. And here is a UAF supported punching a woman in the face because she was in the EDL, the police as usual did nothing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/30/far-right-day-demonstrations-england

The EDL and the BNP plan demonstrations across England to exploit the Woolwich murder. So far the police have taken a fairly tough line with them; I hope this continues.

Perhaps they can arrest a few more tweeters and put the backs up of even more UK citizens. A heavy handed police approach plays right into the hands of the extremists.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3670/post_woolwich_arrests_violate_human_rights_principles

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/30/far-right-day-demonstrations-england

The EDL and the BNP plan demonstrations across England to exploit the Woolwich murder. So far the police have taken a fairly tough line with them; I hope this continues.

Perhaps they can arrest a few more tweeters and put the backs up of even more UK citizens. A heavy handed police approach plays right into the hands of the extremists.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3670/post_woolwich_arrests_violate_human_rights_principles

Isn't that what the commentator in 7by7's Guardian link said?

Talking of commentator, here is another excellent article covering the delusional apologists who sadly work so often for the left wing press. The views categorized in the article have been amply demonstrated by certain posters on this thread. For example the fixation with the EDL to deflect attention from an infinitely greater danger.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3629/this_week_s_utterly_disturbing_leftists#.UaTT7l4kGsg.facebook

There is a sickness in the hard Left. Their unerring, almost sociopathic desire to direct the blame for terrible events onto our own country, our own ideology, our own people, is beneath contempt. Sometimes it is enough to just say “this was awful, this was evil, we will not waver”.

By attacking our own, the Left is doing exactly what the terrorists wanted all along. As a result, they have become the useless idiots who encourage the status quo.

Excellent article Steely Dan.

Steely Dan, you forget that demonstrations by any extreme group receive the same police attention as any other; for example:-

Muslim extremists plan royal wedding 'nightmare'

Muslims Against Crusades, whose website features images of the Union Jack and the crown burning, had requested permission to hold a static demonstration outside the wedding venue on April 29th.

Metropolitan police assistant commissioner Lynne Owens told journalists at a briefing about security measures that although negotiations were ongoing the request had been rejected.

This group and it's actions were condemned and rejected by mainstream British Muslims. From the same article

Ghaffar Hussain, head of training and outreach at counter-extremism thinktank Quilliam, said news of the potential clash was "deeply disappointing" but also "entirely predictable".

"The royal wedding celebrations now risk being hijacked by a few publicity-hungry fanatics whose only aim is to divide our society and to sow suspicions and hatred between Britain's different peoples," he commented.

"These protests show the urgent need for government strategy to move ahead on tackling systematically all forms of extremism across society - and to recognise that Islamist extremism is currently fuelling right-wing extremism and vice-versa. For too long such extremism has been left to fester in Britain unchecked."

Unfortunately, there are those who refuse to listen to the voices of reason and instead prefer to listen to a man convicted of assaulting an off duty police woman who intervened when he was beating up his partner, a man who is a convicted football hooligan, a man convicted of common assault after he head butted one of his own members, a man convicted of attempting to use someone else's passport to enter the USA.

What a role model the erstwhile leader of the EDL is!

Yet you call those who condemn him and also condemn the Muslim extremists who are essentially cast from the same mould as him "delusional apologists" simply because they accept the fact that the Muslim extremists and their leaders no more represent the majority of British Muslims than the thugs in the EDL and their leader of many names represent the ordinary non Muslim.

Robinson or whichever name he's using today is the son of Irish immigrants. He has said "I'm proud to have Irish heritage but I call myself English."

Yet he denies the same to British Muslims who are descended, like him, from immigrants yet are proud to be English or British, too!

And don't come up with the same old baloney that Irish immigrants aren't beheading soldiers in the street. neither are most British Muslims.

British Muslims today are as guilty of supporting this terrible crime and the people who committed it and the extremists groups behind them as Irish immigrants in the 1970s were of supporting the PIRA and their atrocities.

Steely Dan, forgot to add:

Re the Daily Mail article and video you linked to above; have you read it all?

I think not;

A witness at the rally said of Adebolajo’s address: ‘After the speech some of them started running around. An imam even came out at one stage and told the hotheads to calm down and get inside the mosque, saying that they should be praying

More evidence that these extremists do not represent the ordinary British Muslim.

It's funny how the prejudiced ignore the facts!

HI Steely Dan, I am going to ask you just this once to drop the baiting and inflammatory comments like "delusional apologists" etc. Its clearly an aggressive attempt to bait and one I am not going to allow to go on for pages and pages this time.

@7by7, Sorry not going to help turn this into an EDL thread so this is my last post concerning them on this thread, save to say a recent Youtube video by their leader (call him what you like) had 160,000 views. The contrast between the words of the EDL and how they are portrayed will not be lost on the British public, they are not fools and can only be lied to for so long. The fact that UAF are not as portrayed by their allies is also beginning to filter into people's minds. Here is a satirical cartoon, which a friend of mine in N.Z sent me, I'm not sure why but another friend in the UK told me they couldn't access it.

Regarding policing, the police do not use police dogs against crowds of Islamist sympathizers although they certainly do against the EDL. If as you argue the extremists have been disowned by moderate Muslims then the police should not worry as to whether dogs are haram or not. Coming to think of it I'm surprised the Taliban have not declared the use of drones haram, it must be worth a try considering how daft some of our politicians are.

What I find a little disconcerting is that, 'I believe', it took until post 49 by Toady to at least mention Lee Rigby's name!

A soldier who had toured a hostile territory and deserved better than an undignified murder.

There are two here, hell bent on bringing Irish Immigration into this disgraceful act, but as one has referenced, there are blurred lines between the actions of individuals and their intentions.

According to British history Begin ( Stern Gang ), Kenyatta ( Mau Mau Rising ) Mandela, who was only kept in his latter years in jail because of his refusal to give up the armed struggle, and in its most extreme, Washington and the 13 colonies, were all terrorists in the eyes of British Governments.

So, I would like to remind the indivduals concerned in this thread, it is a matter of perspective, open your eyes, Lee Rigby died because of someone elses perspective, wholly wrong in my view, but in their mind a retaliatory action.

The amount of casualties on either 'side', if I can use such a crass term are both disgraceful considering the terms of reference for the wars in both Afghanistan and Iraq, and I fear in the ongoing conflict in Syria and surrounding environs.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, although in the case of overwhelming firepower, that is obviously not the case.

If you feel strongly about these incidences, don't vote in your Gov'ts, or if you do, don't complain on anonymous forums, even if they are not quite anonymous.

Can we watch every terrorist suspect?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22718000

The answer must be No. So these things, the Woolwich beheading, the Boston Marathon bombs, will happen from time to time. We deplore, we condemn the perpetrators, we ride on an absolute tidal wave of anti-terrorist fervour.... but it will happen again.... and again.

Is there really anything we can do about it? I doubt it. I'd like to give a different answer, but I can't, because I simply don't see how isolated acts of terrorism can be prevented. We can target Al Qaeda, because it is (or was) an organisation, but we can't target individuals who go off the rails.

I agree. The people who keep claiming that all these incidents can be prevented and blaming the police/FBI/CIA/MI6 are dreaming IMO.

Another factor which we often forget is that, besides martyrdom, there is something else these people want.... publicity. There the media play right into their hands (though how you could keep the Woolwich and Boston incidents quiet, I don't know).