Immigration Extends Validity Of Income Verification Letter

[Jingthing]

...

Forgive me for saying so, but if Thai Immigration was so darned concerned about not making it difficult for people (non Thais) to stay in Thailand, then why the heck did they propose/issue a new rule that only would have given a two week validity period to consular income letters in the first place???.

...

This is exactly my thought. I find it concerning that the authorities behind the initial enforcement change to 15 days seemingly did not get the dramatic and harsh impact such a MASSIVELY UNREASONABLE requirement would have on a large percentage of their retirement extension applicants. What was the MOTIVATION behind such a change? We can only guess. IF the authorities had merely ASKED a random sampling of the actual FOREIGN people (who actually USE income letters) about the initial 15 day rule BEFORE it was implemented, they could have easily learned how unreasonable it was, and if their motivation wasn't some kind of SHAKEUP/SHAKEOUT of said population, that trial balloon idea could have been popped, pre-launch.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Jingthing

[jrtmedic]

If immigration begin to routinely ask for evidence to support "sworn affidavits" how much of a problem will that cause ?

If those embassies which at the moment provide a service against a sworn statement moved toward providing a letter confirming a proven level of income the whole process would be easier and could be undertaken by post.

Edited June 8, 2013 by jrtmedic

[Jingthing]

If immigration begin to routinely ask for evidence to support "sworn affidavits" how much of a problem will that cause ?

That's another issue.

There would be two levels of problems for expats:

1. Those who are lying

2. Those was are not lying but just don't have adequate current proof because it's inconvenient and the access to that proof is abroad

I have a SOLUTION for these kinds of issues, which of course won't happen, but here goes.

In MOST nations offering retirement visa systems, it is WELL UNDERSTOOD that the majority of applicants using income are using GUARANTEED LIFETIME income sources such as government pensions. Because they are logical this way, generally this proof is only needed ONCE at the beginning of the foreign retirement experience.

NOT every year. It really is totally absurd to need to get embassy letters EVERY year to officialize guaranteed LIFETIME income. OTHER kinds of income, which are allowed here, yes, but pensions are a special class of income type.

While Thailand unlike a number of other retirement visa offering countries offers no path at all to permanent residence for retired foreigners, one thing they COULD do to streamline the process, and to recognize many of the retirees are indeed staying here for life, is to offer a way to obtain an official certificate of LIFETIME income that could be used, year after year after year after year ...

Here is an example of what I mean.

Suppose a foreigner retires in Thailand initially with a government pension of 600K baht annually. Under my bold and logical idea, immigration would offer a service (for a FEE, ka-ching) to get an official certificate of that income, subject to solid documentation PROOF, that would be good for LIFE.

Should the pension INCREASE (pensions generally do not decrease) and the applicant finds benefit in showing the higher amount to immigration, the official document could be AMENDED to reflect the higher amount during later years, and so on.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Jingthing

[ubonjoe]

For the US is is not possible for a consular officer to confirm anything other than your signature or a certification of a copy by law. It is not a local policy.

Some immigration offices ask for backup proof of all income documents. A bank book that shows regular transfers into the country is the best proof.

[jrtmedic]

I and many other Brits obtain a letter from the British Embassy by providing evidence of income.

It is an easy system which does not seem to cause any difficulty for those using the service.

Of course no provable income = no letter !

[Jingthing]

I and many other Brits obtain a letter from the British Embassy by providing evidence of income.

It is an easy system which does not seem to cause any difficulty for those using the service.

Of course no provable income = no letter !

Indeed. But in the case of pension type income, wouldn't it be much better if you only had to prove that income ONCE rather than every year?

[ubonjoe]

To me it is not that big a deal to get one every year.

I already have my sixth trip to Bangkok planed for it next month from here in Ubon. I bought my round trip tickets (1400 baht) in March for a same day trip. I already have my appointment for the embassy. So I am good to go.

[Jingthing]

It might be a big deal to a 90 year old.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I have a SOLUTION for these kinds of issues, which of course won't happen, but here goes.

In MOST nations offering retirement visa systems, it is WELL UNDERSTOOD that the majority of applicants using income are using GUARANTEED LIFETIME income sources such as government pensions. Because they are logical this way, generally this proof is only needed ONCE at the beginning of the foreign retirement experience.

Jing, in response to your comments above, some of us have pensions that indeed are for life and hopefully will never decrease/cease.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that the AMOUNT of that or those pensions alone is sufficient to meet the current 65,000b per month income threshhold set by Immigration for retirement extensions.

Thus, there are those who need to supplement their relatively fixed pension income with variable income amounts from other sources such as CDs, stock-mutual-fund-ETF distributions, bank account interest, etc etc.

That kind of circumstance wouldn't fit too well into your "certify it once and forget it" scenario.

One of the things that people like Immigration need to consider when they start adopting rules and standards is there are LOTS of different personal circumstances that may exist amount their service population, and their rules/procedures hopefully will be encompassing and flexible, not narrow and limiting.

[Jingthing]

Yes, but I'm sorry, I BET you most of the income letters show ONLY pensions. In Thailand, if it's its under 65K monthly you merely combine the balance with Thai bank account funds, and you're set.

Anyway, I wasn't suggesting no more use of embassy letters for OTHER income types. I was talking about officializing recognition of OBVIOUS lifetime income types, like pensions.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Jingthing

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

No... I don't use any Thai bank deposits AT ALL to satisfy the financial requirement of retirement extensions, because, I seriously don't trust keeping any large sums of money in un-secure Thai bank accounts.

I use a combination of pension and other non-pension income sources, and I presume I'm not the only one in Thailand who's doing that.

[ubonjoe]

It might be a big deal to a 90 year old.

I hope by time I turn 90 that the rules have changed.

The ultimate solution would be for the Parliament to rewrite or amend the immigration act of 1979 so that residency is easier to get. You will note I did not write permanent residency that could be a different process.

I understand the problem with age or disability but immigration doesn't.

[Jingthing]

It might be a big deal to a 90 year old.

I hope by time I turn 90 that the rules have changed.

The ultimate solution would be for the Parliament to rewrite or amend the immigration act of 1979 so that residency is easier to get. You will note I did not write permanent residency that could be a different process.

I understand the problem with age or disability but immigration doesn't.

You are more optimistic than me. I don't think any of the current retirees in Thailand who entered first on retirement extensions are EVER going to be offered a path towards residence. As I get older, that's a big factor in why I am looking at OTHER countries.

BTW, yes it's GREAT that the 15 day income letter rule was scrapped so quickly. HOWEVER, just the fact that immigration did that in the first place is a symptom of a troubling reality that in my view should be well realized by retired expats here (and those considering the move) ... we are on a short leash and we are subject to being "jerked around" with things like the 15 day letter, at any time in future.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Jingthing

[aussieinthailand]

Easier to find and marry a Thai national and keep 20 grand in a fixed account year-round. Then once a year do your annual check.

For this to work I think you will find that you had to be married and on a extension of stay before 2008. Then you have grandfathered rights to that scheme, however if you were married and apply for an extension after 2008 I'm sure you will find that it has to be income and not money in the bank.

it's 40,000 baht per month in Thailand or outside of Thailand, not important, or 400,000 held in thai bank for minimum of 3 months

[curtklay]

BTW, yes it's GREAT that the 15 day income letter rule was scrapped so quickly. HOWEVER, just the fact that immigration did that in the first place is a symptom of a troubling reality that in my view should be well realized by retired expats here (and those considering the move) ... we are on a short leash and we are subject to being "jerked around" with things like the 15 day letter, at any time in future.

Is that any way to treat a "guest in their country"?

[Jingthing]

BTW, yes it's GREAT that the 15 day income letter rule was scrapped so quickly. HOWEVER, just the fact that immigration did that in the first place is a symptom of a troubling reality that in my view should be well realized by retired expats here (and those considering the move) ... we are on a short leash and we are subject to being "jerked around" with things like the 15 day letter, at any time in future.

Is that any way to treat a "guest in their country"?

It's a way to treat a "guest" that's starting to smell bad and you want to give a strong HINT to hit the road!

[SurfRider]

.
"Why not have Honorary Embassy Wardens in each region or province. These wardens would be trained and qualified in the notary process and could also help the embassy with other matters that now require a trip to Bangkok or Chiang Mai"

EXCELLENT IDEA! But I suspect the US Embassy would have some regulation that would prevent this from ever happening. The US Embassy has always seemed to be very amenable to accommodating their Expats wherever possible, so I wish you the best in presenting your idea at the September meeting.

Pattaya, for example, has 4 or 5 such Wardens and it would certainly make things much easier for Expats who can't travel.

There's also a Visa service business in Pattaya that obtains income letters for Brits at a cost of only 300 Baht - no trip to Bangkok. I contacted them about providing the same service for non-Brits, but they were not interested. It would be great if a service such as this could be established for other Expats.
.

[CqK]

If immigration begin to routinely ask for evidence to support "sworn affidavits" how much of a problem will that cause ?

That's another issue.

There would be two levels of problems for expats:

1. Those who are lying

2. Those was are not lying but just don't have adequate current proof because it's inconvenient and the access to that proof is abroad

I have a SOLUTION for these kinds of issues, which of course won't happen, but here goes.

In MOST nations offering retirement visa systems, it is WELL UNDERSTOOD that the majority of applicants using income are using GUARANTEED LIFETIME income sources such as government pensions. Because they are logical this way, generally this proof is only needed ONCE at the beginning of the foreign retirement experience.

NOT every year. It really is totally absurd to need to get embassy letters EVERY year to officialize guaranteed LIFETIME income. OTHER kinds of income, which are allowed here, yes, but pensions are a special class of income type.

While Thailand unlike a number of other retirement visa offering countries offers no path at all to permanent residence for retired foreigners, one thing they COULD do to streamline the process, and to recognize many of the retirees are indeed staying here for life, is to offer a way to obtain an official certificate of LIFETIME income that could be used, year after year after year after year ...

Here is an example of what I mean.

Suppose a foreigner retires in Thailand initially with a government pension of 600K baht annually. Under my bold and logical idea, immigration would offer a service (for a FEE, ka-ching) to get an official certificate of that income, subject to solid documentation PROOF, that would be good for LIFE.

Should the pension INCREASE (pensions generally do not decrease) and the applicant finds benefit in showing the higher amount to immigration, the official document could be AMENDED to reflect the higher amount during later years, and so on.

Excellent idea. I would say the pension amount be stated in the initial document and the only amendment to said document would be when Thailand increases the monthly amount they deem necessary for a foreigner to live here (ei: currently Bt.65,000), which is absurd.

Keep the other POI for persons who don't have the lifetime pension or require more than what the lifetime pension pays. They would do the annual letter for amounts required not covered in the lifetime pension(s) document(s).

It's a fantastic idea but I really don't think Immigration could handle it and I'm not being facetious in saying so. It seems they've all they can do to with what they've currently got. Adding anything that requires thought would be like putting water in the gas tank and expecting to get somewhere.

I've often wondered what each officer has a computer for . . . other than to get the day's date. My annual paperwork is a repeat of the previous 16 years paperwork plus various addtions Thailand has required during those 16 years.

Maybe if the Thai "Powers-That-Be" used their heads a little bit, the information could be input and when annual visa renewal approaches, the officer could call up the petitioner's name on the computer and verbally ask the petitioner if there have been any changes in the past year. If there have been changes, the officer prints the page that needs amending. The petitioner makes the change on the printed page, signs it, Immigration hits it with all their various and sundry stamps, initials, etc., it's input into the computer and the physical document's filed with the petitioners already volumes of paperwork.

90-day address reporting could change drastically as well, but again, it would require thought on the part of the immigration officer. Set up a schedule. Example: 1st year visa holders report every 90 days. Once the address remains the same for a year, the visa holder reports every 6 months. After 2 years at the same address, no more address reporting as it's covered in the annual visa renewal. Allow the visa holder to notify Immigration if their address changes after 2 years and to make Thailand happy, make the visa-holder start the 90-day address reporting process all over again.

What do they do with all that paperwork!?!?

[CqK]

.

"I don't understand why so many of you are so concerned about just going to the embassy in Bangkok. If you have the income to deserve the retiree extension, you should be able to afford the trip once a year."

How could you be so short-sighted and inconsiderate? For many, it has nothing to do with being able to "afford" a trip to Bangkok. Some are handicapped and CAN'T travel - and why waste a day of your life on a trip to Bangkok when it's not necessary?

.

My sentiments exactly. One doesn't have to be handicapped to not want to go to BKK.

[Ken]

.

"I don't understand why so many of you are so concerned about just going to the embassy in Bangkok. If you have the income to deserve the retiree extension, you should be able to afford the trip once a year."

How could you be so short-sighted and inconsiderate? For many, it has nothing to do with being able to "afford" a trip to Bangkok. Some are handicapped and CAN'T travel - and why waste a day of your life on a trip to Bangkok when it's not necessary?

.

My sentiments exactly. One doesn't have to be handicapped to not want to go to BKK.

+1

[phutoie2]

I and many other Brits obtain a letter from the British Embassy by providing evidence of income.

 

It is an easy system which does not seem to cause any difficulty for those using the service.

 

Of course no provable income = no letter !

Not forgetting that Immigration can ask for anything. Despite having the Embassy letter Phitsanulok Immigration still wanted to see evidence of spending Baht. I was tempted to point at the wife and say

"There's the evidence" but produced some ATM slips and UK bank statements instead.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 2 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[KhunBENQ]

Germany e.g. issues the income verification letter.

Documents have to be provided to proof the income.

No "swearing".

As far as I know it can be done by mail.

The new order from the Immigration refers to "foreigners" in total, absolutely no reference to specific nations.

Didn't this swearing method without proof lead to suspicion at the Immi and now often supporting documents are required?

[Jingthing]

Immigration has always had the right to ask for more documents to back up anything you present to them.

[jrtmedic]

I witnessed an American gentleman who simply walked away from an immigration officer who asked for documentary proof of his income.

In all fairness the gentleman did not cause a fuss or "kick off" but was clearly taken by surprise at the request.

Edited June 8, 2013 by jrtmedic

[Jingthing]

I witnessed an American gentleman who simply walked away from an immigration officer who asked for documentary proof of his income.

In all fairness the gentleman did not cause a fuss or "kick off" but was clearly taken by surprise at the request.

That's an odd response. On the other hand, I reckon it's not uncommon for applicants presenting embassy letters to NOT have documentation with them that supports the letter. After all, just because officers CAN ask for additional documentation doesn't mean they usually do, because they usually DON'T.

[DickFarang]

If immigration begin to routinely ask for evidence to support "sworn affidavits" how much of a problem will that cause ?

That's another issue.

There would be two levels of problems for expats:

1. Those who are lying

2. Those was are not lying but just don't have adequate current proof because it's inconvenient and the access to that proof is abroad

I have a SOLUTION for these kinds of issues, which of course won't happen, but here goes.

In MOST nations offering retirement visa systems, it is WELL UNDERSTOOD that the majority of applicants using income are using GUARANTEED LIFETIME income sources such as government pensions. Because they are logical this way, generally this proof is only needed ONCE at the beginning of the foreign retirement experience.

NOT every year. It really is totally absurd to need to get embassy letters EVERY year to officialize guaranteed LIFETIME income. OTHER kinds of income, which are allowed here, yes, but pensions are a special class of income type.

While Thailand unlike a number of other retirement visa offering countries offers no path at all to permanent residence for retired foreigners, one thing they COULD do to streamline the process, and to recognize many of the retirees are indeed staying here for life, is to offer a way to obtain an official certificate of LIFETIME income that could be used, year after year after year after year ...

Here is an example of what I mean.

Suppose a foreigner retires in Thailand initially with a government pension of 600K baht annually. Under my bold and logical idea, immigration would offer a service (for a FEE, ka-ching) to get an official certificate of that income, subject to solid documentation PROOF, that would be good for LIFE.

Should the pension INCREASE (pensions generally do not decrease) and the applicant finds benefit in showing the higher amount to immigration, the official document could be AMENDED to reflect the higher amount during later years, and so on.

Pensions are, indeed, in general lifetime incomes but, as we all know, the amount can vary considerably with the rate of the currency (dollar, pound sterling, EURO, etc.) in which those pensions are expressed.

[OJAS]

I never read so many post from people that live here and do not understand the rules for living here. What the hell is wrong with you people.

+1

Why are you not directing your frustration instead at Immigration for making daft changes to these rules, rather than at the people on this thread who are blameless victims?

[OJAS]

If immigration begin to routinely ask for evidence to support "sworn affidavits" how much of a problem will that cause ?

That's another issue.

There would be two levels of problems for expats:

1. Those who are lying

2. Those was are not lying but just don't have adequate current proof because it's inconvenient and the access to that proof is abroad

I have a SOLUTION for these kinds of issues, which of course won't happen, but here goes.

In MOST nations offering retirement visa systems, it is WELL UNDERSTOOD that the majority of applicants using income are using GUARANTEED LIFETIME income sources such as government pensions. Because they are logical this way, generally this proof is only needed ONCE at the beginning of the foreign retirement experience.

NOT every year. It really is totally absurd to need to get embassy letters EVERY year to officialize guaranteed LIFETIME income. OTHER kinds of income, which are allowed here, yes, but pensions are a special class of income type.

While Thailand unlike a number of other retirement visa offering countries offers no path at all to permanent residence for retired foreigners, one thing they COULD do to streamline the process, and to recognize many of the retirees are indeed staying here for life, is to offer a way to obtain an official certificate of LIFETIME income that could be used, year after year after year after year ...

Here is an example of what I mean.

Suppose a foreigner retires in Thailand initially with a government pension of 600K baht annually. Under my bold and logical idea, immigration would offer a service (for a FEE, ka-ching) to get an official certificate of that income, subject to solid documentation PROOF, that would be good for LIFE.

Should the pension INCREASE (pensions generally do not decrease) and the applicant finds benefit in showing the higher amount to immigration, the official document could be AMENDED to reflect the higher amount during later years, and so on.

Pensions are, indeed, in general lifetime incomes but, as we all know, the amount can vary considerably with the rate of the currency (dollar, pound sterling, EURO, etc.) in which those pensions are expressed.

Another point worth bearing in mind is that pensions may not necessarily be the sole source of income for those of us living in LOS on retirement extensions. Many of us also derive rental income from properties we own back home, which is also included in the reckoning for Immigration purposes.

[SurfRider]

.
"Another point worth bearing in mind is that pensions may not necessarily be the sole source of income for those of us living in LOS on retirement extensions."

That's very true and Thai Immigration's simplistic, juvenile, and outdated assumption that all Expats must have a pension or they're not qualified to live here is ridiculous.

Many have investments outside of Thailand that FAR exceed the 800,000 bank deposit requirement or the 65,000 per month Thai income requirement. To have that money rotting away in a Thai bank would be a very stupid and irresponsible investment decision.

If I were to liquidate 800,000 Baht worth of investments to deposit 800K Baht in a Thai bank, the Tax consequences would be catastrophic - not to mention a loss of dividend income to the tune of US$1600 per year (48,000 Thai Baht)

As long as the Thai immigration system insists on sticking their nose into the private financial affairs of Expats living here, they also need to modernize and streamline their requirements for validation of Expat incomes.
.

[Jingthing]

Huh? Various income sources already OK!

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app