Thai monks rebuked over 'ostentatious' jet ride

[kimamey]

FYI... Buddhism officially is not classed as a religion it is an education system and in fact its possible to be a christian Buddhist, but not an Islamic Buddhist because Islam forbids it.

According to the Webster's Dictionary, the definition of religion is as follows, "An organized system of beliefs, rites, and celebrations centered on a supernatural being power; belief pursued with devotion." Buddhism is not a religion because: First, the Buddha is not a 'supernatural being power'. The Buddha is simply a person who has reached Complete Understanding of the reality of life and the universe. Life refers to ourselves, and universe refers to our living environment. The Buddha taught that all beings possess the same ability within to reach Complete Understanding of themselves and their environment, and free themselves from all sufferings to attain utmost happiness. All beings can become Buddhas, and all beings and the Buddha are equal by nature. The Buddha is not a God, but a teacher, who teaches us the way to restore Wisdom and Understanding by conquering the greed, hatred, and ignorance which blind us at the present moment. The word 'Buddha' is a Sanskrit word, when translated it means, "Wisdom, Awareness/Understanding". We call the founder of Buddhism Shakyamuni 'Buddha' because He has attained Complete Understanding and Wisdom of life and the universe. Buddhism is His education to us, it is His teaching which shines the way to Buddhahood.

This would be great discussion material after consumption of psychedelic substances. Buddha may have been a serious tripper himself.

I hope you are joking, because your comment is an insult to a real person who lived his life and devoted himself to teaching and from whom we can all learn a great deal,

I dont think drugs ever had a role in his life. If you took the time to read up on the subject you might understand what he taught.

I think you're taking the comment too seriously and he does say 'may have been'. Drugs have been used for centuries and it's always possible he used substances that we might consider wrong or illegal now.

As I mentioned elsewhere I have read a little. At least enough to know what I was seeing around me had little to do with what I was reading.

As far as I know there is no absolute certainty about this man. Not really surprising as it was a long time ago and in common with most religions based on truly remarkable people and events nobody bothered to write things down until much later. This presumably is why there are always differences of opinion about what was said or intended. Hence in the case of Buddhism there are different forms of Buddhism. In truth we will never know for sure what the Buddha said but if you believe in what it is claimed he said then does it really matter?

[poohy]

One does have to wonder why, these so called monks from one of Thailand's poorest provinces are A) on a plane off to France

If I was a poor farmer, handing out hand outs to keep this lot alive while they are meditating on the answer to life etc. I would be beginning to ask questions

lastly with those summer storms coming the wat will be asking for donations for repairs soon no doubt!

[bigbamboo]

All the major religions love ostentatious displays of wealth so why not Buddhists?

Or maybe by flying they were just trying to get closer to their god?

[Emdog]

""His behaviour -- wearing sunglasses and carrying a Louis Vuitton handbag -- amounts to an ostentatious display that will provoke criticism from laymen," Nopparat said."

1. People wear sunglasses to protect their eyesight. Monks have eyes.

2. Maybe the LV bag was a fake? a man needs a bag sometimes

3. If flight was paid for by private donor, donor is "making merit" supporting the monks. I know for a fact that the Buddha never said anything against private jet transport for monks. hahaha

Sure there are lots of "short time" monks who are there to bring more face to families and such. These monks could be "in the world, but not of the world". Show some compassion and examine your own prejudices before throwing too many stones.

[newermonkey]

FYI... Buddhism officially is not classed as a religion it is an education system and in fact its possible to be a christian Buddhist, but not an Islamic Buddhist because Islam forbids it.

According to the Webster's Dictionary, the definition of religion is as follows, "An organized system of beliefs, rites, and celebrations centered on a supernatural being power; belief pursued with devotion." Buddhism is not a religion because: First, the Buddha is not a 'supernatural being power'. The Buddha is simply a person who has reached Complete Understanding of the reality of life and the universe. Life refers to ourselves, and universe refers to our living environment. The Buddha taught that all beings possess the same ability within to reach Complete Understanding of themselves and their environment, and free themselves from all sufferings to attain utmost happiness. All beings can become Buddhas, and all beings and the Buddha are equal by nature. The Buddha is not a God, but a teacher, who teaches us the way to restore Wisdom and Understanding by conquering the greed, hatred, and ignorance which blind us at the present moment. The word 'Buddha' is a Sanskrit word, when translated it means, "Wisdom, Awareness/Understanding". We call the founder of Buddhism Shakyamuni 'Buddha' because He has attained Complete Understanding and Wisdom of life and the universe. Buddhism is His education to us, it is His teaching which shines the way to Buddhahood.

Which power decides whether a Buddhist reaches Nirvana?

Whichever enitity does this is supernatural.

Cultivated enough virtues connected with Bodhi (bodhipaksa dharma) follow Noble Eightfold Path, Study Dharma and do Mediation (Vipassana) you can reach Nirwana in this life. You will know when you are there, in Thailand any Abbot at any of the larger Wat's could test you (if there is no language barrier) or you can go to a retreat where you would get guidance.

But in Buddhism there is no mythical being who will strike you down with a thunder bolt if you don't pass.

[wolf5370]

It seems that posters can't ask any reasonable questions about Thai Buddhism or even state their perception of it for fear of censorship.

I don't see why not. In fact we have a Buddhism Forum where members can ask reasonable questions about Buddhism. The problem with perceptions is that they can be totally wrong and defamatory. It's worth noting that - whether we like it or not - "insulting religion" is against the law in Thailand.

Is that us insulting the religion or the religion insulting us?

I think the point made by the mod was not to be derogatory about Buddhism as a whole.

'Posts whose primary purpose is to slag off Buddhism in general or Thai Buddhism in particular are not welcome.'

As you point out questions can be asked in the Buddhism forum. I've only ever looked at it a few times but I have asked my wife about certain things but I always give up in the end as it's clear she doesn't really know the answers and what she says doesn't make sense. It seems she just repeats what she's always been told without ever questioning it's current relevance or accuracy. Which I believe isn't in keeping with Buddhist teaching anyway.

My feeling is that the principles of Buddhism in everyday life have been a bit left behind in favour of focusing more on looking after temples and monks.

I agree with this totally. It is probably worse for women who rarely do the "nun stint" like the boys do the "monk stint". I think most Thai kids are taught the basic outline of Buddhism at school - Siddhartha's life, the 5 precepts, the Gems etc.

Ask the average Thai Buddhist (non monk) about anything more spiritual or deep and there are no real answers (certainly no consistent ones). Of course this is the fault of teaching - and language. Monks here chant in Pali, unlike in the west where for the most part Latin was thrown out of church service in favour of local language so that it is a continual school for church goers. Even the Buddhist weekend schools (equivalent of Sunday schools) - I used to help out at one for a few years maybe 5 or 6 years ago) it is more about devotion than religious teaching. I watched young children learning the usual stuff (as mentioned above), but older kids and adults were more about chatting with the monks, cleaning and cooking, sharing a meal after the monks, talking about events to raise money and the like - more of a social club. This is a shame as it locks the masses out (like Latin did) keeping the interested with the option of ordaining or at least the effort of personal self education.

Most Abbotts I have met are pleased to talk almost anything over with a visitor/parishioner, but have never seen kids doing it - or any will to learn more unfortunately.

[Fullstop]

It Happens only in Thailand ;-)

... and Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, China/Tibet,Vietnam and Buddha knows where else.

[wolf5370]

Most enlightened Theravada monk in modern times Tangpulu Sayadaw from Burma not Thailand wore sunglasses all the time because he spent ten years meditating in a cave and his eyes lost the ability to adjust to light. He got to the United States in a jet as do thousands of monks every year.

This is fine. As is wearing eye glasses, hearing aids etc - it is even OK for monks to wear them during the day if the sun is bright, but not to own them and not to wear them just for beautification/flashness. They usually have umbrellas for the sun belonging to the temples (donated).

[newermonkey]

buddhism isnt a religeon its a set of teachings buddha was a real person not a daity, (GOD),for whom no matter what belief you follow no-one has ever seen,and never will,,,,this topic just casts a bad light on the real genuine monks ,,male and female,,,as to the catholic church,,they like to preach to the very poor telling them theyl burn in hell etc,,all the while living like kings ,,,,,,,,hypocrasy at its very best ,,,,dont do as i do,,do as i say,,,and they still say condoms are evil,,,,grow up ,,like the ptp they need there power,,,,

A religion doesn't need to have a deity - it only needs to have a belief. There are no female Theravada monks (only women monks can ordain women - and there aren't any any more - once there were - this is why there are only nuns).

Condoms comes from the question of the soul - at what point is a foetus an individual life in its own right (to a Christian this is when it has obtained a soul - from the Guf). If this is at insemination, then its is not (religious) murder to use condoms, but abortion (also not accepted by the Catholic church) would be. If it is at birth (as some Christian denominations believe) then either is fine. Condoms are accepted by most denominations, but not the Catholic church. The thinking of this (Vatican II - I think???) is that it is up to God to decide if life should come from coupling, and to deny God is a sin (basically). It is well thought out and against their basic canons, it is not an arbitrary rule - many times there have been calls to change it, but the church can not just change what has been instilled as God's word because of peer pressure.

Almost all religions have a risk and reward (carrot and stick) approach - even Buddhism. Look at the cycle of reincarnation (the wheel of life) and see where "sinners" and those that are good end up.

On and on and on, you go about some mystical "thing" Condoms are fine because its up to you, not god or the fairies who live at the bottom of your garden.

People need to decide in the right way for themselves and follow a path that is good and kind to others, not blindly follow myths.

FYI : 'Belief' in the Buddha's teachings is not blind belief, blind faith, and far from superstition. Shakyamuni Buddha taught us not to blindly believe what he tells us, he wants us to try the teachings and prove them for ourselves. The Buddha wants us to know, not merely believe. The Buddha's teachings flow from his own experience of the way to understand the true face of life and the univ`rse, and show us a path of our own to taste the truth for ourselves. This is much like a good friend telling us of his trip to Europe, the sights he has seen, and the way to go there and see for ourselves. The Buddha uses a perfectly scientific way of showing us reality in its true form.

Erm was that aimed at me or Winstonc?

If me, I didn't quote MY belief at all, merely commented on the fact of why the Catholic Church is still against birth control in this modern era.

I also never said anything about Buddhist belief, I did say religion only required belief not a deity (most dictionaries mention at least two definitions - one with deity one just about belief - there are several religions that have no deity and several that have many).

To say in the same paragraph " its up to you, not god or the fairies who live at the bottom of your garden" and "People need to decide in the right way for themselves and follow a path that is good and kind to others, not blindly follow myths" takes away people right to believe in those 'myths' and call that path theirs - and to infer that everyone that follows such a path does so blindly is also somewhat derogatory. All major religions base rules (call them precepts or commandments etc) are pretty similar at their core and boil down in the whole to "be nice, don't hurt or take advantage of anyone else" with other rules/guidance to help achieve this (from "Right mind" to "Honour thy parents").

Interesting you use the term "Shakyamuni" (People's Sage) - I have never heard its use in Theravada Buddhism, not saying it isn't used, but never heard it outside of Japanese and Indian forms.

It is also a fallacy to say there is no mythology/superstition in Buddhism. It would be hard to accept a new born walking, talking and flowers growing where he stepped. Or sitting under a tree while snake gods sheltered him from the rain - and devils danced to tempt him.

As Buddha did not write anything down himself, and his teaching were mostly written down by this disciples after his death - it is hard to see how without some supernatural effect that such accounts are known. The easy answer to this is that he told them of it: Now was this allegory or fact? Each set of scriptures in each religion hold allegory - most Christian denominations now maintain Genesis was mostly allegorical, some of course still hold to the letter of it (and that the Earth is under 6000 years old ignoring the wealth of evidence to the contrary).

Add to this the Thai take on Buddhism, with the inclusion of Animism, and we have much more superstition therein. From strings tied to wrists, to fortune telling, numerology and tattooing - all superstition.

I agree with what you say.

[ekkamai]

What exactly are all those mons doing in Pantip plaza? Every time I go, I notice that there is a surprising number there. Please explain - someone.

[wolf5370]

""His behaviour -- wearing sunglasses and carrying a Louis Vuitton handbag -- amounts to an ostentatious display that will provoke criticism from laymen," Nopparat said." 1. People wear sunglasses to protect their eyesight. Monks have eyes. 2. Maybe the LV bag was a fake? a man needs a bag sometimes 3. If flight was paid for by private donor, donor is "making merit" supporting the monks. I know for a fact that the Buddha never said anything against private jet transport for monks. hahaha Sure there are lots of "short time" monks who are there to bring more face to families and such. These monks could be "in the world, but not of the world". Show some compassion and examine your own prejudices before throwing too many stones.

1. People don't usually need designer sun glasses to protect their eyes whilst strapped into the seat of a private jet.

2. Makes no difference, fake or not. It is not the worth of the item, it is it's intended use. Monks have a sling in which to carry the things they are allowed to possess (rice/offering bowl, spoon, medical items, necessary money, etc) - a LV bag is a status symbol used for showing off and looking flash, in short to sell one's self and to beautify one's self - thus against the rules.

3. Again this makes no difference. A monk is not obligated to accept a gift (they are not allowed to take money personally for example) - they must accept food placed in their offering bowls, but not all gifts - what if I made 'merit, by buying a monk a night in a brothel? He should reject it politely (maybe not so politely in my case). The gift was ostentatious and should have been reject, perhaps with a suggestion to donate the cost instead to charity etc.

If a man is ordained and swears to hold the precepts of the monkhood, then he should for however short a time he is ordained for. It is not acceptable to be "in the world, but not of the world" - its in or out, those are the vows taken.

[teatree]

FYI... Buddhism officially is not classed as a religion it is an education system and in fact its possible to be a christian Buddhist, but not an Islamic Buddhist because Islam forbids it.

According to the Webster's Dictionary, the definition of religion is as follows, "An organized system of beliefs, rites, and celebrations centered on a supernatural being power; belief pursued with devotion." Buddhism is not a religion because: First, the Buddha is not a 'supernatural being power'. The Buddha is simply a person who has reached Complete Understanding of the reality of life and the universe. Life refers to ourselves, and universe refers to our living environment. The Buddha taught that all beings possess the same ability within to reach Complete Understanding of themselves and their environment, and free themselves from all sufferings to attain utmost happiness. All beings can become Buddhas, and all beings and the Buddha are equal by nature. The Buddha is not a God, but a teacher, who teaches us the way to restore Wisdom and Understanding by conquering the greed, hatred, and ignorance which blind us at the present moment. The word 'Buddha' is a Sanskrit word, when translated it means, "Wisdom, Awareness/Understanding". We call the founder of Buddhism Shakyamuni 'Buddha' because He has attained Complete Understanding and Wisdom of life and the universe. Buddhism is His education to us, it is His teaching which shines the way to Buddhahood.

Which power decides whether a Buddhist reaches Nirvana?

Whichever enitity does this is supernatural.

Cultivated enough virtues connected with Bodhi (bodhipaksa dharma) follow Noble Eightfold Path, Study Dharma and do Mediation (Vipassana) you can reach Nirwana in this life. You will know when you are there, in Thailand any Abbot at any of the larger Wat's could test you (if there is no language barrier) or you can go to a retreat where you would get guidance.

But in Buddhism there is no mythical being who will strike you down with a thunder bolt if you don't pass.

Nirvana means 'to be extinguished'

Which power decides if you are worthy of being extinguished and not reborn?

[spectre324]

I noticed that in 199 when the crash occured there was a rush of thai men to the monk hood. and it has been that way ever since. the only true monks that I have seen and i repeat I HAVE SEEN are the monks at wat pana chat in Ubon Ratchathani, they truly practice the monk hood and seem to be honorable and truthful to the relegion. i want to repeat for all you who want to argue, THE ONLY TRUE MONKS THAT I HAVE SEEN. ME! SEEN! GET IT?

[Fullstop]

I knew that beggars can make a lot of money, but I never knew it was to this extent!

I used to chat to this beggar in Korat. She said she made about 500 Baht a day. Good days on weekends around 1000. She told me how it was better to be dirty and lie in the gutter ... more coins, so she would intentionally smear mud all over herself. I ran into her 'out of uniform' in The Mall once and she looked quite respectable.

[connda]

What exactly are all those mons doing in Pantip plaza? Every time I go, I notice that there is a surprising number there. Please explain - someone.

Buying bling bling and other stuff that distracts from the tenets of Buddhism. Also, buying it with wads of cash they personally are carrying (monk can't touch money which is why you travel with an anagarika (paa kaow - white clothes) who is a layman that can conduct transactions. Back to what I said before: forest monks are the real deal.

[Fullstop]

Which power decides whether a Buddhist reaches Nirvana?

Whichever enitity does this is supernatural.

Himself?

[deecee10]

Religious expectations may be pure as the driven snow, but plenty of alleged followers are not.

[Fullstop]

But, then I witnessed Thai Buddhism - note, not 'Buddhism', but 'Thai Buddhism'.

The Dalai Lama is a bit of a jetsetter. Edited June 18, 2013 by Fullstop

[TackyToo]

Other media in Thai language reported the jet belongs to Luang Pu Nenkham Chattigo, abbot of Wat Pa Khanti Dhamma in Si Sa Ket’s Kanthararom district. According to the report there is also a heli port next to the entrance of the temple. Maybe the abbot and his entourage made the trip to France to have a closer look at the new Airbus…

[latelyo]

Here is the website of this monk

http://en.luangpunenkham.com/about/history/brief/

[wolf5370]

But, then I witnessed Thai Buddhism - note, not 'Buddhism', but 'Thai Buddhism'.

The Dalai Lama is a bit of a jetsetter.

Mmmm books sell quite well too, but I guess he lost far more than he has made - like a kingdom. I think in his case it is more with respect to his other role as leader of his people than as head of his order - a great wrong was done to his country and country men, he has not rallied for military help, but political pressure- and that means keeping in the public eye.

[stickylies]

It Happens only in Thailand ;-)

... and Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, China/Tibet,Vietnam and Buddha knows where else.

true. in myanmar it's daily business that monks sell 'lucky lotterly numbers' for cash. just pop-in at any teashop and observe.

[Fullstop]

Add to this the Thai take on Buddhism, with the inclusion of Animism, and we have much more superstition therein. From strings tied to wrists, to fortune telling, numerology and tattooing - all superstition.

It's almost like a mass community social entertainment. And nothing wrong with that. Religions make good social lubricants.

EDIT: When education and logic are in short supply.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Fullstop

[stickylies]

conclusion after 113 replies: the main religion in this world is called consumerism.

[newermonkey]

FYI... Buddhism officially is not classed as a religion it is an education system and in fact its possible to be a christian Buddhist, but not an Islamic Buddhist because Islam forbids it.

According to the Webster's Dictionary, the definition of religion is as follows, "An organized system of beliefs, rites, and celebrations centered on a supernatural being power; belief pursued with devotion." Buddhism is not a religion because: First, the Buddha is not a 'supernatural being power'. The Buddha is simply a person who has reached Complete Understanding of the reality of life and the universe. Life refers to ourselves, and universe refers to our living environment. The Buddha taught that all beings possess the same ability within to reach Complete Understanding of themselves and their environment, and free themselves from all sufferings to attain utmost happiness. All beings can become Buddhas, and all beings and the Buddha are equal by nature. The Buddha is not a God, but a teacher, who teaches us the way to restore Wisdom and Understanding by conquering the greed, hatred, and ignorance which blind us at the present moment. The word 'Buddha' is a Sanskrit word, when translated it means, "Wisdom, Awareness/Understanding". We call the founder of Buddhism Shakyamuni 'Buddha' because He has attained Complete Understanding and Wisdom of life and the universe. Buddhism is His education to us, it is His teaching which shines the way to Buddhahood.

Which power decides whether a Buddhist reaches Nirvana?

Whichever enitity does this is supernatural.

Cultivated enough virtues connected with Bodhi (bodhipaksa dharma) follow Noble Eightfold Path, Study Dharma and do Mediation (Vipassana) you can reach Nirwana in this life. You will know when you are there, in Thailand any Abbot at any of the larger Wat's could test you (if there is no language barrier) or you can go to a retreat where you would get guidance.

But in Buddhism there is no mythical being who will strike you down with a thunder bolt if you don't pass.

Nirvana means 'to be extinguished'

Which power decides if you are worthy of being extinguished and not reborn?

Nirvana is the state of complete peace and tranquility basically the end of suffering ie. "heaven" the end of being a suffering human & you decide if you are worthy.

Edited June 18, 2013 by newermonkey

[stickylies]

Add to this the Thai take on Buddhism, with the inclusion of Animism, and we have much more superstition therein. From strings tied to wrists, to fortune telling, numerology and tattooing - all superstition.

It's almost like a mass community social entertainment. And nothing wrong with that. Religions make good social lubricants.

so do kids and dogs (amongst fellow kid / dog owners)...

[jackinbkk]

For explanation see Richard Dawkins, Selfish gene.

Everyone's at it.

[uptheos]

Good monks, bad monks, rich monks, poor monks......let them get on with it.

It's not my country I'm just a guest, so I couldn't care less if they travel by Rolls Royce and have wild parties every night. I don't care one iota care about things I can't change, particularly religion and strange beliefs in a foreign country. They have absolutely nothing to do with me or my life, never have done and never will do.

[HOOD Robin]

I thought begging for money was not allowed by the monks in public places? yesterday whilst having lunch with my wife in a "Open" cafeteria three lady monks came in and visited all the tables for donations. My wife not wanting to offend the lady monks gave them some cash.

And i'm sure you were staring at it and thinking <deleted>... but couldn't or didnt dare to intervene...(logical)

[Fullstop]

For explanation see Richard Dawkins, Selfish gene.

Everyone's at it.

It's a hangover from our hunter/gatherer days. We're still gathering.