How safe are wall mount water heaters without earthing ?

[boosta]

I think all the detailed tech stuff is great for the few DIY here, but if anyone can recommend any knowledgeable trustworthy Thai electricians in their areas that may well be more useful.

I've got receipts from one in Bangkok buried in my stuff all packed up, I'd be happy to dig it up if others also contribute.

[thhMan]

I just enjoy that extra tingly surge every now and then... Its better than the dose of severe diarrhea that comes a few times a year because cleanliness and the inability to identify rotting food is not really an issue, as its served up to customers (Thai or Western food)....

[Naroge]

Although there is a lot of more or less good advice mentioned here I have a more general comment.

How do you know that it is not earthed? Or that there is a RCD in the main household switchboard? For a non-electrician these things are not easy to establish. And unless you see only a two-wire connection gong into the heater (in which chase there is no proper earthing) you need to open up both the heater and switchboard to see it is correctly done.

But maybe this is what you have already done.

[how241]

When I first came here I thought it very funny and primitive how cautious, even afraid, ordinary sensible Thais are around electricity.

Later I realized I was observing some rare common sense.

+1....Most Thai electric is not grounded from what I have seen. Scary.

[khunPer]

Unsafe and dangerous – need both earth and ELB. A proper earth is connected to three long earth spikes, my Thai electrican told me, when installing earth in the new house I was building. The earth connection is underground, so we don't see a wire coming out from the house. Of course he also installed ELB's.

Edited June 22, 2013 by khunPer

[orpheus454]

Totally safe as long they use gas, rather than electricity, to heat the water...

[boosta]

Although there is a lot of more or less good advice mentioned here I have a more general comment.

How do you know that it is not earthed? Or that there is a RCD in the main household switchboard? For a non-electrician these things are not easy to establish. And unless you see only a two-wire connection gong into the heater (in which chase there is no proper earthing) you need to open up both the heater and switchboard to see it is correctly done.

But maybe this is what you have already done.

-

There are plenty of how-to's if you google, cheap multimeter, other easily available tools.

Most important is a long copper rod pounded into the ground, how long/deep depends on the soil type, in dense clay that's always moist less, dry sandy soil have to go way down. This rod then is connected to the ground wires of all the grounded circuits in the house.

If you're talking about a large building, then very likely there are no proper grounds available, water pipes don't work here given all the plastic used.

When I helped my company set up a server room in CP Tower we had to pay a lot of money to have a dedicated ground wire installed from above the 20th floor down into the basement.

This stuff is bog-standard back home, inspectors would never allow occupancy, here it's par for the course.

[sotsira]

They have the potential to electrocute you if they are not earthed

and an internal fault occurs.

Not only that but they also need to be protected with an ELB

(earth leakage breaker) that is fitted in the supply line through the

Live and Neutral.

Only earthing is NOT 100% safe.

Absolute <deleted>, if there is correct earthing and the heater element becomes live then the current will flow to ground through the earth which should then trip the circuit breaker.

Without RCB or ELB protection the circuit breaker that your referring to will only trip when the amperage exceeds the maximum the circuit breaker is rated at which is usually 32A or higher.

With an RCB or ELB incorporated the amperage is up to 30 milliamps before it trips, which makes

it a life saver.

There is nothing <deleted> about what i said.

[transam]

They are perfectly safe, until they are not, then they are lethal!

The label saying "This appliance must be earthed" is there for a reason.

And to second this, this is what can happen AND DOES...................

[WilliamCave]

.....circuit breaker (safe-T-cut) is essential. When I moved in I was puzzled by the nails attached to the circuit and stuck into the ground. I since found out that this was the earthing...If I had the expertise I would buy some European plugs and sockets, meaning that I couldn't plug many of my Thai power tools.

The circuit breakers inside your consumer unit are NOT life saving devices, they are high rated amperage circuit breakers that only the LIVE wires run through them, not the NEUTRAL and they

don't detect earth leakage.

They are designed to protect the wires from melting or catching fire in the event of a short circuit

they will NOT prevent electrocution as they can withstand the amperage stated on them before

self switching off, which by then, could well be too late.

I had my house redone all new wires and grounds put on every thing even the heaters in the showers and I made sure it all goes to a grounding rod out side.

Now you got me thinking should I or can it be done to change all my breakers to GFI or something of that kind for added protection ?

I am asking because I need moire advice , I want to feel safe in the shower and with my family . Seems like you know what you are talking about.

Thanks in advance

[rosst]

The Safe-T-Cut breaker he's talking about - the necessity of which is critical I agree - is a separate upstream unit, often installed at the breaker panel.

Sometimes in the bathroom where water could splash on it, defeats the purpose I think.

But nothing substitutes for proper grounding, not just for safety's sake but the longevity of your electronics - expensive ones should be on a UPS anyway as well, even if your house's systems are perfectly setup the mains supply quality here is uniformly poor.

You don't need to install an ELCB inside your bathroom it can easily be installed at or next to the consumer unit

taking the wires from the water heater circuit breaker, this is the safest and easiest way to install one.

Or you can buy consumer units with ELCB's already incorporated.

All three reasons below are essential for 100% safety:

1) Circuit Breaker

2) ELCB

3) Earthing

Without all three working in unison you are NOT 100% safe.

Yes, as an electrician, I was at first highly amused and then horrified. During a recent renovation I insisted on doing all the electrical wiring myself including a two metre long earth stake next to the septic, so it stays wet, or near the back tap where they wash the dishes each day. The safe-T cut saves the wiring, the ELB saves your life. I recently saw an adjustable one with up to lethal leakage, what is the point?? The warranty for my expensive Panasonic air con insists on adequate earth for warranty, installer says they do not, I said you will and provided the correct cable then watched. I have an earth leakage tester I used to check all connections in our house.

My builder sent his electrician for lessons freely given. He is now suggesting they use the right stuff, I may save a life. I hope so.

RCD protection is mandatory in Australia. The hot water units are lethal when the water is not running and they have a fault. If the water is running, it shorts to ground no problem. Faulty unit, wet floor, bare feet, touch it and you are probably dead.

[SGD]

I know that earthing ours with rods into the ground wasn't exactly financially challenging. Perhaps Bt1000 each ?

[transam]

I know that earthing ours with rods into the ground wasn't exactly financially challenging. Perhaps Bt1000 each ?

I thought under a 100 bht each.

[BahBahBoBo]

I always have earthling with my wall mounted heaters,

earthling can operate it for me, its all alien to me you know?

Sometime also i like earthling be heater in my bed too.

[BahBahBoBo]

I know that earthing ours with rods into the ground wasn't exactly financially challenging. Perhaps Bt1000 each ?

I thought under a 100 bht each.

Yes my friends! I Love to bury my rod into the earthings too, usually it works out about 1000 baht.

[retell]

They have the potential to electrocute you if they are not earthed

and an internal fault occurs.

Not only that but they also need to be protected with an ELB

(earth leakage breaker) that is fitted in the supply line through the

Live and Neutral.

Only earthing is NOT 100% safe.

and the earth cable should be connected to a large pin in the ground , (not with insulation still on there twisted and taped on one ) but you're right about the ELB best 4000 Thb i spend while making the electric in my house , while the neibours tv's radios pc's fridges etc get broken with a thunderstorm all it does here is just cut the power

[Oliver Reed]

As a qualified electrician, to what I believe to be amongst the worlds most stringently regulated electrical standard (British), I have long since compartmentalised Thai wiring standards in to the 'This is Thailand' (mai pen rai) bracket..it seems any building of any sort, outside of possibly the high end buildings in Bangkok, falls well below acceptable standard to be deemed as safe...in particular, domestic dwellings..quite often thrown up by a gang of Burmese / Cambodian workers, where the bricky, often doubles up as the plumber and electrician...it takes less than an ampere to cause cardiac arrest..in fact the figure is in to the milliamps, yet there is no regulatory body or inspection necessary to be hooked up to an electricity supply...kind of explains some of these tragic fires we read about from time to time, and the answer always seems to be t apportion blame to an individual, make an example of him (if he hasn't run away) and carry on until the next tragedy.

Its almost comparable to driving a car without brakes, having a building without an earth..as fault current will always take the easiest path to ground...in the case where the earth is a nail in the ground or worse..it will choose to pass through the body of the person touching the faulty appliance and out through the toes

[transam]

I know that earthing ours with rods into the ground wasn't exactly financially challenging. Perhaps Bt1000 each ?

I thought under a 100 bht each.

Yes my friends! I Love to bury my rod into the earthings too, usually it works out about 1000 baht.

Hmmmmmmmmm, bought a 2 mtr rod and bashed in the ground myself, under a 100 bht, BUT I do have a hammer.

[transam]

Mine's longer and thicker than yours, so of course it's worth more. . .

Probably is but do you have a hammer. .................................

[marioc]

I carefully read all the posts, but I couldn't get the info I was looking for......

I am renting a little house and of course the water heater has not the "earth".

There is a switch (black colour) only dedicated to the water heater outside the bathroom.

Can someone tell me when it could be actually dangerous? I mean, what must happen to get dangerous while taking a shower? Is it dangerous if the water heater is old or malfunctioning? Or should I be careful in splashing water on the heater?

Sorry guys, I am a really idiot in electricity .......

Thank you very much in advance for you help

[transam]

If you have an internal electrical problem in the heater the fault cannot go to earth so it goes to you via the water and kills you.

[fezzy]

The black surface mounted double pole isolator will only act as a switch to isolate the appliance . What I have found is that the earth wire attaches from inside the HWU and then goes outside and is bolted to a copper earth stake which is bashed into the ground to provide a path of lest resistance for the fault current to escape to . Look for a single ( hopefully green in colour) coming out the rear or bottom of your HWU. Aussie sparky in Thailand.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Crossy
fixed the quote

[khunPer]

I carefully read all the posts, but I couldn't get the info I was looking for......

I am renting a little house and of course the water heater has not the "earth".

There is a switch (black colour) only dedicated to the water heater outside the bathroom.

Can someone tell me when it could be actually dangerous? I mean, what must happen to get dangerous while taking a shower? Is it dangerous if the water heater is old or malfunctioning? Or should I be careful in splashing water on the heater?

Sorry guys, I am a really idiot in electricity .......

Thank you very much in advance for you help

Installing an ELB together with the “black switch” may give you some protection.

And yes, splashing water on the heater, may not be a very good idea.

[marioc]

If you have an internal electrical problem in the heater the fault cannot go to earth so it goes to you via the water and kills you.

I carefully read all the posts, but I couldn't get the info I was looking for......

I am renting a little house and of course the water heater has not the "earth".

There is a switch (black colour) only dedicated to the water heater outside the bathroom.

Can someone tell me when it could be actually dangerous? I mean, what must happen to get dangerous while taking a shower? Is it dangerous if the water heater is old or malfunctioning? Or should I be careful in splashing water on the heater?

Sorry guys, I am a really idiot in electricity .......

Thank you very much in advance for you help

Installing an ELB together with the “black switch” may give you some protection.

And yes, splashing water on the heater, may not be a very good idea.

Thank you guys....so, I guess the best solution is to install an ELB with the "black switch" and then I should be able to take safe showers, chai mai?

Any idea on how much could it cost?

Thanks again for helping.

[retell]

If you have an internal electrical problem in the heater the fault cannot go to earth so it goes to you via the water and kills you.

I carefully read all the posts, but I couldn't get the info I was looking for......

I am renting a little house and of course the water heater has not the "earth".

There is a switch (black colour) only dedicated to the water heater outside the bathroom.

Can someone tell me when it could be actually dangerous? I mean, what must happen to get dangerous while taking a shower? Is it dangerous if the water heater is old or malfunctioning? Or should I be careful in splashing water on the heater?

Sorry guys, I am a really idiot in electricity .......

Thank you very much in advance for you help

Installing an ELB together with the “black switch” may give you some protection.

And yes, splashing water on the heater, may not be a very good idea.

Thank you guys....so, I guess the best solution is to install an ELB with the "black switch" and then I should be able to take safe showers, chai mai?

Any idea on how much could it cost?

Thanks again for helping.

since you have the black switch ( breaker) you might not have to change that however for the 40 THb that they cost i would do anyway The Elb go from 3500 and up to whatever

installing all that stuff is up to the installer but i put the Elb in the entire system - just after the Big main switch and befor it gets divided in to the several breakers that go to bathroom shower betroom kitchen etc

[marioc]

Thank you Retell.......got it!

[retell]

forgot to tell , since my roof is a steel welded construction i grounded the steel beams at several points and connected the ground wires from wall sockets showers etc to the beams

[davidst01]

I wear thongs in the shower everytime as I dont want the risk of being zapped...

[transam]

forgot to tell , since my roof is a steel welded construction i grounded the steel beams at several points and connected the ground wires from wall sockets showers etc to the beams

Don't think that works.

[boosta]

As long as the steel framing is actually truly grounded (via the copper rod deep into the soil), AND the various parts of the framing are actually tightly joined in this case welded, then that should be fine.

Don't rely on the mass of steel itself to be "a ground" because it isn't enough mass, will have a differential from that of the earth itself whereas all your grounded outlets need to actually be all joined together to the same ground.

However it would be better to just have three-wire cabling throughout the house, and all the ground wires from every outlet all come together in the same place at the wiring box and from there to the common ground, a single properly sunk copper rod.