Red-shirt rift shows it's time to move beyond politics of personality

[webfact]

BURNING ISSUE
Red-shirt rift shows it's time to move beyond politics of personality
Pravit Rojanaphruk

BANGKOK: -- The abrupt discontinuation of television programmes on the pro-Thaksin Shinawatra Asia Update television station, by red-shirt co-leaders who publicly oppose the blanket amnesty bill, has exacerbated the rift within the red-shirt movement as never before.

Lists of those affected include the movement's co-leaders Jatuporn Promphan, Thida Tavornsaet Tojirakarn and Sombat Boonngam-anong - the Red Sunday group leader who personally launched a campaign to oppose the bill, of which Thaksin would be one of the beneficiaries.

The vast majority of so-called progressive and intellectual reds have become disillusioned with the ruling Pheu Thai Party and Thaksin. They blame the ousted and fugitive former premier for this self-serving, grand-bargain attempt to have himself exonerated in exchange for granting blanket amnesty to those responsible for the almost 100 deaths during the Abhisit Vejjajiva administration's crackdown on red-shirt protesters in 2010.

A majority of red shirts appear to be sticking with Thaksin, however, as they love him and his populist policies. A tiny group of reds led by Chulalongkorn University academic Suda Rankupan want the 26 remaining political prisoners to be freed as soon as possible as a priority, thus they're supporting the bill.

It's still premature to assess how much a drop in popularity Thaksin and the Pheu Thai Party are suffering as a result. But the support for both the pro- and anti-blanket amnesty bill camps have reminded Thai society again just how divisive Thaksin is as a figure, and how Thai politics and society continue to revolve around Thaksin to the detriment of society itself, seven years after he was ousted.

It's more than apparent that the main issue driving the Democrat Party-led anti-amnesty bill protest is hatred and fear of Thaksin - while many reds who support the bill do it out of their love and sympathy for Thaksin. What isn't really considered by these people is the rule of law and the issue of impunity. Because some believe Thaksin is bad, a coup is justified. And because others believe Thaksin is good, a blanket amnesty that will exonerate not just Thaksin but those responsible for the killings in 2010 is also justified.

The politics of personality, of love and hatred of Thaksin, are pushing the Kingdom towards a new round of what could be a deadly confrontation or yet another coup.

A society in which a majority of the people are trapped in the cycle of politics of personality has little or no prospect of becoming a truly just and democratic society. Somehow, many Thais prefer the politics of personality because it's emotionally attractive - you can choose one side and throw aside all doubts and scrutiny of that side: you belong, and you enjoy the ride and sense of comradeship.

The past seven or eight years of Thai politics have shown that the situation is far more complex than that, however. Now that some red shirts are beginning to publicly acknowledge and denounce the dark side of Thaksin, let's hope more can transcend politics or personality cults and move on to think about what is truly good for the future of this society.

Politics is about negotiation, not about placing absolute trust in the hands of one politician or leader. Impunity and corruption will not end simply because you love or hate someone too much, but when you recognise the problem and see it as something beyond just one person.


-- The Nation 2013-11-05

[Robby nz]

The vast majority of so-called progressive and intellectual reds have become disillusioned with the ruling Pheu Thai Party and Thaksin. They blame the ousted and fugitive former premier for this self-serving, grand-bargain attempt to have himself exonerated in exchange for granting blanket amnesty to those responsible for the almost 100 deaths during the Abhisit Vejjajiva administration's crackdown on red-shirt protesters in 2010.

That paragraph says a lot about attitudes.

"exonerated in exchange for granting blanket amnesty to those responsible for the almost 100 deaths"

Considering that he and the red leaders are the ones responsible for all the deaths then he is exonerating himself from those deaths as well.

Note the increase of the death toll, 100 sounds better than 91 right?

Another thing that is always ignored is that at least a third, and probably more, of those deaths were directly caused by the bullets and grenades of the armed faction of the red rioters.

Anyway, on topic.

Where do these disillusioned reds turn, the small parasite parties are of no use they will lie to their electors then go wherever the money is best.

Newin is kissing Thaksins butt.

These so called "progressive and intellectual reds" have been conditioned to believe the Dems are evil and only care for the rich, not to mention their so called murderous leaders.

That only leaves Thaksins party or new parties he will introduce, if reports can be believed..

So come election time if they want to show their anger against Thaksin what can they do?

Rant a bit and vote for him anyway of suck it up and go with the only party that represents any opposition to Thaksin, the Dems.

[rametindallas]

It's more than apparent that the main issue driving the Democrat Party-led anti-amnesty bill protest is hatred and fear of Thaksin

I completely disagree. Speaking for myself and most of my Western educated Thai friends and acquaintances, we neither hate nor fear Dr. Thaksin. We didn't mind so much he used his power over tools of the State to further enrich himself; all politician do that. Dr. Thaksin's war on drugs that saw thousands of extrajudicial killings by the police were troubling but that didn't cause us to want him expelled from power. The problem is: Thaksin has, in the past, made moves that are considered undemocratic and dictatorial. He has stymied and blocked NGOs from their watchdog duties, he has restrained freedom of the press with outrageous lawsuits against reporters who reported the facts. He amassed personal power equal to some past military dictatorships and many of us suspect he wants Thailand to become a Republic with Dr. Thaksin as its first president. This is unacceptable,

Many of Dr. Thaksin's supporters don't have a clue of what he has done, in a broad sense, and only know what they are told: Dr. Thaksin paid off Thailand's debt to the IMF from his own pockets, the million Baht village fund came from Dr. Thaksin's own pockets, the 75 Baht health care program was Dr. Thaksin's idea (it had been promulgated by the Democrats but the 1997 Crash ended that). Dr. Thaksin visited villages and passed out 1000 Baht notes to everyone around. With the Patron/Client situation that was already in place for hundreds of years, Dr. Thaksin installed himself as the new Patron and promised everything.

This is not a battle based on hate or fear of love. it is a battle based on the old guard not wanting to be displaced by the new guard as represented by Dr. Thaksin. Dr. Thaksin has, in some regions of Thailand, cleverly created a new cult of personality to replace the 'Institution'. He has portrayed himself as the new benefactor, the new protector of the poor. The problem is, Dr. Thaksin is dishonest and deceitful and evil to the core.

Edited November 5, 2013 by rametindallas

[selftaopath]

It seem that the culture of Thailand and the "society' are primarily interesting in personal financial gain and power. It's difficult and almost impossible to see anyone interested in the majority of Thai citizens. Hell Thailand - at least in Isaan - find it near impossible to have a road built that lasts more than 2 weeks w/out falling apart. Why is this??? A possible explanation is because most are stealing all they can from Thailand's natural resources and coffers. It's every man/woman/ and child for him/herself. Society??? lol A culture of me and corruption. Hell if this wasn't the case we would see some semblance of rule of law. But do we???? I think not.

[worgeordie]

Maybe at last, at least some of the Red Shirts have realized that they have

just been used to benefit one person,now that it seems that his problems

are over and that he will be able to return and once again be PM.he does

not need them.

regards Worgeordie

[fab4]

The vast majority of so-called progressive and intellectual reds have become disillusioned with the ruling Pheu Thai Party and Thaksin. They blame the ousted and fugitive former premier for this self-serving, grand-bargain attempt to have himself exonerated in exchange for granting blanket amnesty to those responsible for the almost 100 deaths during the Abhisit Vejjajiva administration's crackdown on red-shirt protesters in 2010.

That paragraph says a lot about attitudes.

"exonerated in exchange for granting blanket amnesty to those responsible for the almost 100 deaths"

Considering that he and the red leaders are the ones responsible for all the deaths then he is exonerating himself from those deaths as well.

Note the increase of the death toll, 100 sounds better than 91 right?

Another thing that is always ignored is that at least a third, and probably more, of those deaths were directly caused by the bullets and grenades of the armed faction of the red rioters.

Anyway, on topic.

Where do these disillusioned reds turn, the small parasite parties are of no use they will lie to their electors then go wherever the money is best.

Newin is kissing Thaksins butt.

These so called "progressive and intellectual reds" have been conditioned to believe the Dems are evil and only care for the rich, not to mention their so called murderous leaders.

That only leaves Thaksins party or new parties he will introduce, if reports can be believed..

So come election time if they want to show their anger against Thaksin what can they do?

Rant a bit and vote for him anyway of suck it up and go with the only party that represents any opposition to Thaksin, the Dems.

More throwaway lines eh robbynz? Just like yesterdays story about Yingluck ready to fly off at a moments notice?

Where on earth did you get the "fact" that "at least a third, and probably more, of those deaths were directly caused by the bullets and grenades of the armed faction of the red rioters". What do you base that estimation on, numbers plucked out of thin air?

Newin???? Yes, and?

More innuendo - "These so called "progressive and intellectual reds" have been conditioned to believe the Dems are evil and only care for the rich, not to mention their so called murderous leaders."

Which ones are those then, robbynz - is it Sombats Group or Thiras' or the red shirts ally, The Nitirat Group etc. and if they're intellectual, which I and the author of the article believe they are, why would they conditioned to be believe the dems are evil and only care for the rich? A bit shallow don't you think for a group of people who have demonstrated against governments and have seen their colleagues shot dead for what they believed in.

You honestly believe that the dems hold the key to the future? Alongkorn needs to bite the bullet, leave and form a new party but thats not going to happen without backup (in one form or another) which means Thaksins money or the elite money/back up so you wouldn't be getting anything new.

Not quite sure which way is the right way but the dems isn't it, that's for sure. Too much old money, old thought and old support.

[fab4]

It's more than apparent that the main issue driving the Democrat Party-led anti-amnesty bill protest is hatred and fear of Thaksin

I completely disagree. Speaking for myself and most of my Western educated Thai friends and acquaintances, we neither hate nor fear Dr. Thaksin. We didn't mind so much he used his power over tools of the State to further enrich himself; all politician do that. Dr. Thaksin's war on drugs that saw thousands of extrajudicial killings by the police were troubling but that didn't cause us to want him expelled from power. The problem is: Thaksin has, in the past, made moves that are considered undemocratic and dictatorial. He has stymied and blocked NGOs from their watchdog duties, he has restrained freedom of the press with outrageous lawsuits against reporters who reported the facts. He amassed personal power equal to some past military dictatorships and many of us suspect he wants Thailand to become a Republic with Dr. Thaksin as its first president. This is unacceptable,

Many of Dr. Thaksin's supporters don't have a clue of what he has done, in a broad sense, and only know what they are told: Dr. Thaksin paid off Thailand's debt to the IMF from his own pockets, the million Baht village fund came from Dr. Thaksin's own pockets, the 75 Baht health care program was Dr. Thaksin's idea (it had been promulgated by the Democrats but the 1997 Crash ended that). Dr. Thaksin visited villages and passed out 1000 Baht notes to everyone around. With the Patron/Client situation that was already in place for hundreds of years, Dr. Thaksin installed himself as the new Patron and promised everything.

This is not a battle based on hate or fear of love. it is a battle based on the old guard not wanting to be displaced by the new guard as represented by Dr. Thaksin. Dr. Thaksin has, in some regions of Thailand, cleverly created a new cult of personality to replace the 'Institution'. He has portrayed himself as the new benefactor, the new protector of the poor. The problem is, Dr. Thaksin is dishonest and deceitful and evil to the core.

Suggest you read the article by Songkran Grachangnetara in the other paper today. Possibly the most savvy article ever written about the Thai political situation today. And no it is not a Thaksin hagiography. Try it, you may be enlightened.

As he wryly puts it the people at these demonstrations are following in blind faith demonstration leaders, who individually were:

1) responsible for getting Thaksin into Politics

2) well known as a business associate of Thaksin before switching sides to suit different occasions and finally

3) a political party that copied Thaksins tactics and policies whilst in government...........................

Edited November 5, 2013 by fab4

[hellodolly]

It's more than apparent that the main issue driving the Democrat Party-led anti-amnesty bill protest is hatred and fear of Thaksin

I completely disagree. Speaking for myself and most of my Western educated Thai friends and acquaintances, we neither hate nor fear Dr. Thaksin. We didn't mind so much he used his power over tools of the State to further enrich himself; all politician do that. Dr. Thaksin's war on drugs that saw thousands of extrajudicial killings by the police were troubling but that didn't cause us to want him expelled from power. The problem is: Thaksin has, in the past, made moves that are considered undemocratic and dictatorial. He has stymied and blocked NGOs from their watchdog duties, he has restrained freedom of the press with outrageous lawsuits against reporters who reported the facts. He amassed personal power equal to some past military dictatorships and many of us suspect he wants Thailand to become a Republic with Dr. Thaksin as its first president. This is unacceptable,

Many of Dr. Thaksin's supporters don't have a clue of what he has done, in a broad sense, and only know what they are told: Dr. Thaksin paid off Thailand's debt to the IMF from his own pockets, the million Baht village fund came from Dr. Thaksin's own pockets, the 75 Baht health care program was Dr. Thaksin's idea (it had been promulgated by the Democrats but the 1997 Crash ended that). Dr. Thaksin visited villages and passed out 1000 Baht notes to everyone around. With the Patron/Client situation that was already in place for hundreds of years, Dr. Thaksin installed himself as the new Patron and promised everything.

This is not a battle based on hate or fear of love. it is a battle based on the old guard not wanting to be displaced by the new guard as represented by Dr. Thaksin. Dr. Thaksin has, in some regions of Thailand, cleverly created a new cult of personality to replace the 'Institution'. He has portrayed himself as the new benefactor, the new protector of the poor. The problem is, Dr. Thaksin is dishonest and deceitful and evil to the core.

Not sure if that was a tongue in cheek post or not. You in essence say that every thing he did was OK.

You say

Dr. Thaksin's war on drugs that saw thousands of extrajudicial killings by the police were troubling but that didn't cause us to want him expelled from power

How many extrajudicial killings would it take for you to see it as wrong? Not some thing to be allowed any Prime Minister even if they are a Shinawatra?

the article states

The vast majority of so-called progressive and intellectual reds have become disillusioned with the ruling Pheu Thai Party and Thaksin. They blame the ousted and fugitive former premier for this self-serving, grand-bargain attempt to have himself exonerated in exchange for granting blanket amnesty to those responsible for the almost 100 deaths during the Abhisit Vejjajiva administration's crackdown on red-shirt protesters in 2010

."progressive and intellectual reds". Now that is among the leaders for joke of the year. Or they are putting the bar for progressive and intellectual pretty low.

Any one that is progressive and an intellectual would never condone any of Thaksins crimes.

[winstonc]

you may be correct fab4,but my wife is there because she detests corrupt filth, dems included..not everyone should be tarred with the same brush dont you think..i admire her conviction to do this instead of sitting on her arse doing nothing but blah.blah

[15Peter20]

Good opinion piece for a change from the Nation.

[fab4]

But that's the point. The people leading these demos are not doing it for your wife, or democracy, or anybody else out there. They are doing it to keep the status quo.

Whatever you may think about the bill (I support the original unadulterated version) there is something a bit wrong when you have a chance that an amnesty bill that that has been passed by a legitimate elected government could be deemed unconstitutional by a Constitutional Court that sees nothing wrong with an military junta taking power by coup and then writing themselves an amnesty into the constitution.

I don't know the answer , other than the Senate block this Bill and the PTP see sense and and put through the original unadulterated amnesty bill through, but I do know the answer isn't the democratic party in its present shape or form.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Rimmer

[GentlemanJim]

It's more than apparent that the main issue driving the Democrat Party-led anti-amnesty bill protest is hatred and fear of Thaksin

I completely disagree. Speaking for myself and most of my Western educated Thai friends and acquaintances, we neither hate nor fear Dr. Thaksin. We didn't mind so much he used his power over tools of the State to further enrich himself; all politician do that. Dr. Thaksin's war on drugs that saw thousands of extrajudicial killings by the police were troubling but that didn't cause us to want him expelled from power. The problem is: Thaksin has, in the past, made moves that are considered undemocratic and dictatorial. He has stymied and blocked NGOs from their watchdog duties, he has restrained freedom of the press with outrageous lawsuits against reporters who reported the facts. He amassed personal power equal to some past military dictatorships and many of us suspect he wants Thailand to become a Republic with Dr. Thaksin as its first president. This is unacceptable,

Many of Dr. Thaksin's supporters don't have a clue of what he has done, in a broad sense, and only know what they are told: Dr. Thaksin paid off Thailand's debt to the IMF from his own pockets, the million Baht village fund came from Dr. Thaksin's own pockets, the 75 Baht health care program was Dr. Thaksin's idea (it had been promulgated by the Democrats but the 1997 Crash ended that). Dr. Thaksin visited villages and passed out 1000 Baht notes to everyone around. With the Patron/Client situation that was already in place for hundreds of years, Dr. Thaksin installed himself as the new Patron and promised everything.

This is not a battle based on hate or fear of love. it is a battle based on the old guard not wanting to be displaced by the new guard as represented by Dr. Thaksin. Dr. Thaksin has, in some regions of Thailand, cleverly created a new cult of personality to replace the 'Institution'. He has portrayed himself as the new benefactor, the new protector of the poor. The problem is, Dr. Thaksin is dishonest and deceitful and evil to the core.

Your last sentence of your post is entirely accurate, however as for "Dr. Thaksin's war on drugs that saw thousands of extrajudicial killings by the police were troubling", I am unsure how the extrajudicial killings (murder) of 2500 people could be labelled as 'troubling'. It is akin to stating that 'the earthquake that devastated Japan a couple of years ago was nothing more than a little rumble, what's all the fuss about'! It always sets you up for a fall when you decide to speak for 'others'. Labeling the murder of 2500 people as 'troubling' but the desire by Thaksin to be President as 'unacceptable' displays a very skewed view of morals and ethics. Your post would have been just Dandy without the first para. IMHO.

[whybother]

you may be correct fab4,but my wife is there because she detests corrupt filth, dems included..not everyone should be tarred with the same brush dont you think..i admire her conviction to do this instead of sitting on her arse doing nothing but blah.blah

But that's the point. The people leading these demos are not doing it for your wife, or democracy, or anybody else out there. They are doing it to keep the status quo.

Whatever you may think about the bill (I support the original unadulterated version) there is something a bit wrong when you have a chance that an amnesty bill that that has been passed by a legitimate elected government could be deemed unconstitutional by a Constitutional Court that sees nothing wrong with an military junta taking power by coup and then writing themselves an amnesty into the constitution.

I don't know the answer , other than the Senate block this Bill and the PTP see sense and and put through the original unadulterated amnesty bill through, but I do know the answer isn't the democratic party in its present shape or form.

How could the Constitutional Court reject the amnesty given to the junta? It's written in the constitution.

[LingLek]

"Now that some red shirts are beginning to publicly acknowledge and denounce the dark side of Thaksin, let's hope more can transcend politics or personality cults and move on to think about what is truly good for the future of this society."

Good point. To escape the Thaksin cult or the money fetish (two inter-connecting cages), people need to be given, or find, or become aware of, other options. That's the clincher.

[winstonc]

you may be correct fab4,but my wife is there because she detests corrupt filth, dems included..not everyone should be tarred with the same brush dont you think..i admire her conviction to do this instead of sitting on her arse doing nothing but blah.blah

But that's the point. The people leading these demos are not doing it for your wife, or democracy, or anybody else out there. They are doing it to keep the status quo.

Whatever you may think about the bill (I support the original unadulterated version) there is something a bit wrong when you have a chance that an amnesty bill that that has been passed by a legitimate elected government could be deemed unconstitutional by a Constitutional Court that sees nothing wrong with an military junta taking power by coup and then writing themselves an amnesty into the constitution.

I don't know the answer , other than the Senate block this Bill and the PTP see sense and and put through the original unadulterated amnesty bill through, but I do know the answer isn't the democratic party in its present shape or form.

as ive stated before my wife and her group are not of any political persuasion ,they are with the asoke temple they all wear dark blue uniforms led by a monk called the great teacher..anti -corruption....they dont care about thaksin ,abisit,and the rest of the vile elite,but if those at the top steal they get up and do there thing,..thaksin by the way despises them,he went to there temple in ubon where we are years ago and tried to buy them off ..but alas he didnt get his way.so the local authority will not put a newly laid road near them.just to be spiteful ...even at the expence of the reds that live there too..but are they worried not in the least...its what you would expect from a thai politcion would you not...

[Rimmer]

Inflammatory racist post removed also the quoted replies to it

[winstonc]

you may be correct fab4,but my wife is there because she detests corrupt filth, dems included..not everyone should be tarred with the same brush dont you think..i admire her conviction to do this instead of sitting on her arse doing nothing but blah.blah

Well I hope she knows that all of her yellow friends (to her face) look down their noses at her & whisper she's a whore behind her back, because she has a falang husband.

do they really ...could you tell me who they are so i can tell her...i see your still a boring predictable twa-t...but i forgive you..

Self denial is understandable.

??? please say what you mean i dont understand that thank you ..

[fab4]

It's more than apparent that the main issue driving the Democrat Party-led anti-amnesty bill protest is hatred and fear of Thaksin

I completely disagree. Speaking for myself and most of my Western educated Thai friends and acquaintances, we neither hate nor fear Dr. Thaksin. We didn't mind so much he used his power over tools of the State to further enrich himself; all politician do that. Dr. Thaksin's war on drugs that saw thousands of extrajudicial killings by the police were troubling but that didn't cause us to want him expelled from power. The problem is: Thaksin has, in the past, made moves that are considered undemocratic and dictatorial. He has stymied and blocked NGOs from their watchdog duties, he has restrained freedom of the press with outrageous lawsuits against reporters who reported the facts. He amassed personal power equal to some past military dictatorships and many of us suspect he wants Thailand to become a Republic with Dr. Thaksin as its first president. This is unacceptable,

Many of Dr. Thaksin's supporters don't have a clue of what he has done, in a broad sense, and only know what they are told: Dr. Thaksin paid off Thailand's debt to the IMF from his own pockets, the million Baht village fund came from Dr. Thaksin's own pockets, the 75 Baht health care program was Dr. Thaksin's idea (it had been promulgated by the Democrats but the 1997 Crash ended that). Dr. Thaksin visited villages and passed out 1000 Baht notes to everyone around. With the Patron/Client situation that was already in place for hundreds of years, Dr. Thaksin installed himself as the new Patron and promised everything.

This is not a battle based on hate or fear of love. it is a battle based on the old guard not wanting to be displaced by the new guard as represented by Dr. Thaksin. Dr. Thaksin has, in some regions of Thailand, cleverly created a new cult of personality to replace the 'Institution'. He has portrayed himself as the new benefactor, the new protector of the poor. The problem is, Dr. Thaksin is dishonest and deceitful and evil to the core.

Your last sentence of your post is entirely accurate, however as for "Dr. Thaksin's war on drugs that saw thousands of extrajudicial killings by the police were troubling", I am unsure how the extrajudicial killings (murder) of 2500 people could be labelled as 'troubling'. It is akin to stating that 'the earthquake that devastated Japan a couple of years ago was nothing more than a little rumble, what's all the fuss about'! It always sets you up for a fall when you decide to speak for 'others'. Labeling the murder of 2500 people as 'troubling' but the desire by Thaksin to be President as 'unacceptable' displays a very skewed view of morals and ethics. Your post would have been just Dandy without the first para. IMHO.

As an aside the estimated number of killings is quoted as around 1300'ish as this quite sensible investigation concludes. Still a lot of people but not 2,500 deaths

google: "investigative journalism into controversial thailand", search site for "drug wars"

[Thaddeus]

It's more than apparent that the main issue driving the Democrat Party-led anti-amnesty bill protest is hatred and fear of Thaksin

I completely disagree. Speaking for myself and most of my Western educated Thai friends and acquaintances, we neither hate nor fear Dr. Thaksin. We didn't mind so much he used his power over tools of the State to further enrich himself; all politician do that. Dr. Thaksin's war on drugs that saw thousands of extrajudicial killings by the police were troubling but that didn't cause us to want him expelled from power. The problem is: Thaksin has, in the past, made moves that are considered undemocratic and dictatorial. He has stymied and blocked NGOs from their watchdog duties, he has restrained freedom of the press with outrageous lawsuits against reporters who reported the facts. He amassed personal power equal to some past military dictatorships and many of us suspect he wants Thailand to become a Republic with Dr. Thaksin as its first president. This is unacceptable,

Many of Dr. Thaksin's supporters don't have a clue of what he has done, in a broad sense, and only know what they are told: Dr. Thaksin paid off Thailand's debt to the IMF from his own pockets, the million Baht village fund came from Dr. Thaksin's own pockets, the 75 Baht health care program was Dr. Thaksin's idea (it had been promulgated by the Democrats but the 1997 Crash ended that). Dr. Thaksin visited villages and passed out 1000 Baht notes to everyone around. With the Patron/Client situation that was already in place for hundreds of years, Dr. Thaksin installed himself as the new Patron and promised everything.

This is not a battle based on hate or fear of love. it is a battle based on the old guard not wanting to be displaced by the new guard as represented by Dr. Thaksin. Dr. Thaksin has, in some regions of Thailand, cleverly created a new cult of personality to replace the 'Institution'. He has portrayed himself as the new benefactor, the new protector of the poor. The problem is, Dr. Thaksin is dishonest and deceitful and evil to the core.

Your last sentence of your post is entirely accurate, however as for "Dr. Thaksin's war on drugs that saw thousands of extrajudicial killings by the police were troubling", I am unsure how the extrajudicial killings (murder) of 2500 people could be labelled as 'troubling'. It is akin to stating that 'the earthquake that devastated Japan a couple of years ago was nothing more than a little rumble, what's all the fuss about'! It always sets you up for a fall when you decide to speak for 'others'. Labeling the murder of 2500 people as 'troubling' but the desire by Thaksin to be President as 'unacceptable' displays a very skewed view of morals and ethics. Your post would have been just Dandy without the first para. IMHO.

As an aside the estimated number of killings is quoted as around 1300'ish as this quite sensible investigation concludes. Still a lot of people but not 2,500 deaths

google: "investigative journalism into controversial thailand", search site for "drug wars"

Sorry, no, out of the 2,500 deaths 1,300 were thought to have nothing to do with drugs.

[fab4]

you may be correct fab4,but my wife is there because she detests corrupt filth, dems included..not everyone should be tarred with the same brush dont you think..i admire her conviction to do this instead of sitting on her arse doing nothing but blah.blah

But that's the point. The people leading these demos are not doing it for your wife, or democracy, or anybody else out there. They are doing it to keep the status quo.

Whatever you may think about the bill (I support the original unadulterated version) there is something a bit wrong when you have a chance that an amnesty bill that that has been passed by a legitimate elected government could be deemed unconstitutional by a Constitutional Court that sees nothing wrong with an military junta taking power by coup and then writing themselves an amnesty into the constitution.

I don't know the answer , other than the Senate block this Bill and the PTP see sense and and put through the original unadulterated amnesty bill through, but I do know the answer isn't the democratic party in its present shape or form.

How could the Constitutional Court reject the amnesty given to the junta? It's written in the constitution.

Shall I put it another way for you to get past your "pedantic defense" you always descend to. ( disclaimer - "always" being a figure of speech and not to be taken literally to avoid lots of ball achingly pedantic responses) )

Despite what you think of the bill, there is something ironic in people who are demonstrating against an amnesty bill that are hoping that the Constitutional Court will find unconstitutional despite it being passed through parliament by a legitimately elected government when they took no notice whatsoever of an illegal coup resulting in the military junta ripping up the existing constitution and writing a new one with an amnesty built in specifically for for the participants of that coup.

[rametindallas]

It's more than apparent that the main issue driving the Democrat Party-led anti-amnesty bill protest is hatred and fear of Thaksin

I completely disagree. Speaking for myself and most of my Western educated Thai friends and acquaintances, we neither hate nor fear Dr. Thaksin. We didn't mind so much he used his power over tools of the State to further enrich himself; all politician do that. Dr. Thaksin's war on drugs that saw thousands of extrajudicial killings by the police were troubling but that didn't cause us to want him expelled from power. The problem is: Thaksin has, in the past, made moves that are considered undemocratic and dictatorial. He has stymied and blocked NGOs from their watchdog duties, he has restrained freedom of the press with outrageous lawsuits against reporters who reported the facts. He amassed personal power equal to some past military dictatorships and many of us suspect he wants Thailand to become a Republic with Dr. Thaksin as its first president. This is unacceptable,

Many of Dr. Thaksin's supporters don't have a clue of what he has done, in a broad sense, and only know what they are told: Dr. Thaksin paid off Thailand's debt to the IMF from his own pockets, the million Baht village fund came from Dr. Thaksin's own pockets, the 75 Baht health care program was Dr. Thaksin's idea (it had been promulgated by the Democrats but the 1997 Crash ended that). Dr. Thaksin visited villages and passed out 1000 Baht notes to everyone around. With the Patron/Client situation that was already in place for hundreds of years, Dr. Thaksin installed himself as the new Patron and promised everything.

This is not a battle based on hate or fear of love. it is a battle based on the old guard not wanting to be displaced by the new guard as represented by Dr. Thaksin. Dr. Thaksin has, in some regions of Thailand, cleverly created a new cult of personality to replace the 'Institution'. He has portrayed himself as the new benefactor, the new protector of the poor. The problem is, Dr. Thaksin is dishonest and deceitful and evil to the core.

Not sure if that was a tongue in cheek post or not. You in essence say that every thing he did was OK.

You say

Dr. Thaksin's war on drugs that saw thousands of extrajudicial killings by the police were troubling but that didn't cause us to want him expelled from power

How many extrajudicial killings would it take for you to see it as wrong? Not some thing to be allowed any Prime Minister even if they are a Shinawatra?

the article states

The vast majority of so-called progressive and intellectual reds have become disillusioned with the ruling Pheu Thai Party and Thaksin. They blame the ousted and fugitive former premier for this self-serving, grand-bargain attempt to have himself exonerated in exchange for granting blanket amnesty to those responsible for the almost 100 deaths during the Abhisit Vejjajiva administration's crackdown on red-shirt protesters in 2010

."progressive and intellectual reds". Now that is among the leaders for joke of the year. Or they are putting the bar for progressive and intellectual pretty low.

Any one that is progressive and an intellectual would never condone any of Thaksins crimes.

Thank you for your critique. In 2002 when the anti-drug crackdown was taking place, the stories were tricking in (English language papers only for me) so the full extent of what was happening was not apparent. I read some news stories of some pretty outrageous excuses by the police for why this or that person was killed (A handcuffed prisoner in the custody of six officers was shot dead because he 'went for their gun') but really, that stuff also happens in the US. Non of us could know how extensive the killing was when it was happening. Later when it became known how many died, there were so many other things happening that it seemed too late to get worked up about it (I'm sorry, that sounds so callous as I write this), Looking back, it is a little overwhelming to think of all the negative news concerning Dr. Thaksin's transgressions and his deflections/denials. He was like a steam roller and seemed unstoppable. Even while he was active PM, only a tenth of the bad things he was doing was known/reported in the English language press. My Thai friends and acquaintances had lived through worse rulers than Dr. Thaksin and I, at the time, was a naïve visitor. Yes, it is true that they were/are inured to corruption. It is only when the 'Institution' seemed at risk that they considered he had 'crossed the line'. I apologize for not being clear that my view of those extrajudicial killings, once the scope was realized, were an atrocity. How many did one have to know about to lay it at he feet of Dr. Thaksin? Since extrajudicial killings take place regularly, I guess it is only when that number far exceeds the average. At the time I was only in Thailand three months a year and did not read Thailand news or go on forums when not in Thailand. My perspective then was much different than now.

[fab4]

It's more than apparent that the main issue driving the Democrat Party-led anti-amnesty bill protest is hatred and fear of Thaksin

I completely disagree. Speaking for myself and most of my Western educated Thai friends and acquaintances, we neither hate nor fear Dr. Thaksin. We didn't mind so much he used his power over tools of the State to further enrich himself; all politician do that. Dr. Thaksin's war on drugs that saw thousands of extrajudicial killings by the police were troubling but that didn't cause us to want him expelled from power. The problem is: Thaksin has, in the past, made moves that are considered undemocratic and dictatorial. He has stymied and blocked NGOs from their watchdog duties, he has restrained freedom of the press with outrageous lawsuits against reporters who reported the facts. He amassed personal power equal to some past military dictatorships and many of us suspect he wants Thailand to become a Republic with Dr. Thaksin as its first president. This is unacceptable,

Many of Dr. Thaksin's supporters don't have a clue of what he has done, in a broad sense, and only know what they are told: Dr. Thaksin paid off Thailand's debt to the IMF from his own pockets, the million Baht village fund came from Dr. Thaksin's own pockets, the 75 Baht health care program was Dr. Thaksin's idea (it had been promulgated by the Democrats but the 1997 Crash ended that). Dr. Thaksin visited villages and passed out 1000 Baht notes to everyone around. With the Patron/Client situation that was already in place for hundreds of years, Dr. Thaksin installed himself as the new Patron and promised everything.

This is not a battle based on hate or fear of love. it is a battle based on the old guard not wanting to be displaced by the new guard as represented by Dr. Thaksin. Dr. Thaksin has, in some regions of Thailand, cleverly created a new cult of personality to replace the 'Institution'. He has portrayed himself as the new benefactor, the new protector of the poor. The problem is, Dr. Thaksin is dishonest and deceitful and evil to the core.

Your last sentence of your post is entirely accurate, however as for "Dr. Thaksin's war on drugs that saw thousands of extrajudicial killings by the police were troubling", I am unsure how the extrajudicial killings (murder) of 2500 people could be labelled as 'troubling'. It is akin to stating that 'the earthquake that devastated Japan a couple of years ago was nothing more than a little rumble, what's all the fuss about'! It always sets you up for a fall when you decide to speak for 'others'. Labeling the murder of 2500 people as 'troubling' but the desire by Thaksin to be President as 'unacceptable' displays a very skewed view of morals and ethics. Your post would have been just Dandy without the first para. IMHO.

As an aside the estimated number of killings is quoted as around 1300'ish as this quite sensible investigation concludes. Still a lot of people but not 2,500 deaths

google: "investigative journalism into controversial thailand", search site for "drug wars"

Sorry, no, out of the 2,500 deaths 1,300 were thought to have nothing to do with drugs.

Precisely, the "2500" figure was total homicides reported by the police - the figure of 1329 was the number of drug related deaths. I you had read it you would have found out quite rightly that, using your figures it would have to be assumed for the period used that no "normal" homicides would have taken place which is obviously a ridiculous situation. The "normal" rates for homicides in 2003 were 400 a month, not drug related, just "normal" killings.

You are assuming

1) that there were no non-drug related homicides in Thailand in that period, and

2) all drug-related homicides where extra-judicial

which is plain nonsense.

So try reading it again or ignore it, it's up to you.

"I don't want to read it - it doesn't concur with what I believe"

[rametindallas]

It's more than apparent that the main issue driving the Democrat Party-led anti-amnesty bill protest is hatred and fear of Thaksin

I completely disagree. Speaking for myself and most of my Western educated Thai friends and acquaintances, we neither hate nor fear Dr. Thaksin. We didn't mind so much he used his power over tools of the State to further enrich himself; all politician do that. Dr. Thaksin's war on drugs that saw thousands of extrajudicial killings by the police were troubling but that didn't cause us to want him expelled from power. The problem is: Thaksin has, in the past, made moves that are considered undemocratic and dictatorial. He has stymied and blocked NGOs from their watchdog duties, he has restrained freedom of the press with outrageous lawsuits against reporters who reported the facts. He amassed personal power equal to some past military dictatorships and many of us suspect he wants Thailand to become a Republic with Dr. Thaksin as its first president. This is unacceptable,

Many of Dr. Thaksin's supporters don't have a clue of what he has done, in a broad sense, and only know what they are told: Dr. Thaksin paid off Thailand's debt to the IMF from his own pockets, the million Baht village fund came from Dr. Thaksin's own pockets, the 75 Baht health care program was Dr. Thaksin's idea (it had been promulgated by the Democrats but the 1997 Crash ended that). Dr. Thaksin visited villages and passed out 1000 Baht notes to everyone around. With the Patron/Client situation that was already in place for hundreds of years, Dr. Thaksin installed himself as the new Patron and promised everything.

This is not a battle based on hate or fear of love. it is a battle based on the old guard not wanting to be displaced by the new guard as represented by Dr. Thaksin. Dr. Thaksin has, in some regions of Thailand, cleverly created a new cult of personality to replace the 'Institution'. He has portrayed himself as the new benefactor, the new protector of the poor. The problem is, Dr. Thaksin is dishonest and deceitful and evil to the core.

Your last sentence of your post is entirely accurate, however as for "Dr. Thaksin's war on drugs that saw thousands of extrajudicial killings by the police were troubling", I am unsure how the extrajudicial killings (murder) of 2500 people could be labelled as 'troubling'. It is akin to stating that 'the earthquake that devastated Japan a couple of years ago was nothing more than a little rumble, what's all the fuss about'! It always sets you up for a fall when you decide to speak for 'others'. Labeling the murder of 2500 people as 'troubling' but the desire by Thaksin to be President as 'unacceptable' displays a very skewed view of morals and ethics. Your post would have been just Dandy without the first para. IMHO.

I won't rewrite history to cover for my Thai friend's and acquaintances' expressed opinions at the time. it was what it was. At the time they didn't seem too outraged by the deaths of 'drug dealers'. I was in Thailand for only three months during 2002, just when the drug war began, and the extent of the killing was not known to me, or them, at the time. I was the typical, selfish foreigner on holiday and Thai politics and government action were not my concern in 2002. At the time, I experienced no outrage nor did I hear any from my Western educated Thai friends and acquaintances nor any criticism of Dr. Thaksin's policies from my many Isaan friends; my GF at the time was from Yasothon. What I wrote was a history of the moment as I experienced it and not meant to minimize the evil or offend the reader. Of course, now that the truth is known, it is one of the many reasons I believe Dr. Thaksin is poison to Thailand. BTW, I still haven't heard even one Thai express one tenth the outrage at the extrajudicial killings as I hear from non-Thais. Your mileage may vary.

edit to define nationality of friends and acquaintances.

Edited November 5, 2013 by rametindallas

[Thaddeus]

^^Oh bugger, I picked the wrong number by mistake.

So, only 1,179 in a reported WOD were thought to have nothing to do with drugs.

That makes it so much better doesn't it.

An these were people shot by the police, not other homicides.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Thaddeus

[Pi Sek]

Well I hope she knows that all of her yellow friends (to her face) look down their noses at her & whisper she's a whore behind her back, because she has a falang husband.

do they really ...could you tell me who they are so i can tell her...i see your still a boring predictable twa-t...but i forgive you..

Self denial is understandable.

??? please say what you mean i dont understand that thank you ..

What a truly disgusting couple of posts by "Rich Teacher". I don't want to have to read this **** when looking at a political discussion forum. <deleted>, how old are you?, 14 or what?

[Baerboxer]

you may be correct fab4,but my wife is there because she detests corrupt filth, dems included..not everyone should be tarred with the same brush dont you think..i admire her conviction to do this instead of sitting on her arse doing nothing but blah.blah

But that's the point. The people leading these demos are not doing it for your wife, or democracy, or anybody else out there. They are doing it to keep the status quo.

Whatever you may think about the bill (I support the original unadulterated version) there is something a bit wrong when you have a chance that an amnesty bill that that has been passed by a legitimate elected government could be deemed unconstitutional by a Constitutional Court that sees nothing wrong with an military junta taking power by coup and then writing themselves an amnesty into the constitution.

I don't know the answer , other than the Senate block this Bill and the PTP see sense and and put through the original unadulterated amnesty bill through, but I do know the answer isn't the democratic party in its present shape or form.

How could the Constitutional Court reject the amnesty given to the junta? It's written in the constitution.

Shall I put it another way for you to get past your "pedantic defense" you always descend to. ( disclaimer - "always" being a figure of speech and not to be taken literally to avoid lots of ball achingly pedantic responses) )

Despite what you think of the bill, there is something ironic in people who are demonstrating against an amnesty bill that are hoping that the Constitutional Court will find unconstitutional despite it being passed through parliament by a legitimately elected government when they took no notice whatsoever of an illegal coup resulting in the military junta ripping up the existing constitution and writing a new one with an amnesty built in specifically for for the participants of that coup.

Interesting if the 2006 military action in removing an illegal usurper of the PMs office could be considered an illegal coup. They weren't removing a PM, just the previous PM who had resigned, left, come back and was refusing to go?

I agree fair point on the irony of this bill. But, that's due to one man manipulating it to his own ends, to achieve amnesty for himself from a conviction and serious outstanding criminal charges. To further this, he stirred up charges against the opposition leaders, which he hoped to use as a bargaining chip, to remove their opposition to his plans.

I would support the original version - but not a bill that allows a convicted criminal fugitive to whitewash his criminal activities, and those of his clan, under the pretense of politics. The Dem leaders have been charged and should face the courts. It's for the courts to decide if they have been investigated and charged in accordance with the law, and if so, proceed to trial.

The thing that is ironic is the choice facing the Thai people going forward. Vote PTP and be controlled and robbed by the ruthless Shin clan or vote Dem and be continually downtrodden and exploited by the elite HiSo Thai Chinese.

Hobson's choice.

[fab4]

^^Oh bugger, I picked the wrong number by mistake.

So, only 1,179 in a reported WOD were thought to have nothing to do with drugs.

That makes it so much better doesn't it.

An these were people shot by the police, not other homicides.

And further on we have

The police said that themselves as the BBC reported:

…only 1,329 Thais died over drugs, arguing that the other 1,300 killings had nothing to do with the illegal trade…

Police General Sant said that based on the inquiry, 72 people died as a result of extra-judicial killings.

COMMENT: If 70,000 people were arrested, is this not evidence there was not a de facto shoot to kill policy as some have claimed? If the homicide rate doubled from 400-800, the 1,329 drug-related deaths figure starts to be a more accurate number than the 2,275 figure. What about the Thai Police’s statement they were only responsible for 72 deaths? Why have those figures never found their way into all the newspapers? Ok, because it doesn’t paint Thaksin as sufficiently evil enough.

NOTE: I disagree with the BBC’s use of the word extra-judicial killing it is a translation of วิสามัญฆาตกรรม which actually equates to justifiable homicide. Now, obviously police claims of justifiable homicide/self-defence should be investigated to see if there is any substance to them, but it is not the same as extra-judicial killings which has different connotations.

The figure of deaths over the years has been inflated and wrongly quoted by the Human Rights Groups (which have never been Thaksin supporters) and others, including posters on here, and definitely with only one thing in mind - to further blacken Thaksins name.

[rubl]

The fact that the House in the form of Pheu Thai party MPs and a few hopefull have pushed through a piece of legislation within TWO days of 'no deliberations allowed for the opposition ' and with controversial changes put in by a Pheu Thai led commision before, doesn't make it real democratic.

Still, even then the Constituation Court can (still) be asked to comment on the bill. That's still in the constitution. The move to have a (government) controlled vetting commission to 'screen' requests to the CC is not completed yet.

So it's ironic that these anti-government protests attract Thai people from all political and social directions, red-shirt Saturday on Ratchaprasong again, again in anti-government form.

PS the 1997 constitution was not ripped up, most in the 2007 version is either identical or more clear as legal experts have said. Only the article on coupleader amnesty is a bit of a blott on it (although understandable). With the move to have this article removed it's understandable that government coalition partner MP general Sonthi voted for the blanket amnesty bill. Just to be double sure I

How could the Constitutional Court reject the amnesty given to the junta? It's written in the constitution.

-- insult removed ---

Despite what you think of the bill, there is something ironic in people who are demonstrating against an amnesty bill that are hoping that the Constitutional Court will find unconstitutional despite it being passed through parliament by a legitimately elected government when they took no notice whatsoever of an illegal coup resulting in the military junta ripping up the existing constitution and writing a new one with an amnesty built in specifically for for the participants of that coup.

Edited November 5, 2013 by rubl

[rubl]

The figure of deaths has been deflated over the years, by TRT/PPP/PTP spokes people, supporters and a handful of TV members. Just to bring a bit more shine to St. Thaksin the Innocent's armour.

The figure of deaths over the years has been inflated and wrongly quoted by the Human Rights Groups (which have never been Thaksin supporters) and others, including posters on here, and definitely with only one thing in mind - to further blacken Thaksins name.

[hellodolly]

But that's the point. The people leading these demos are not doing it for your wife, or democracy, or anybody else out there. They are doing it to keep the status quo.

Whatever you may think about the bill (I support the original unadulterated version) there is something a bit wrong when you have a chance that an amnesty bill that that has been passed by a legitimate elected government could be deemed unconstitutional by a Constitutional Court that sees nothing wrong with an military junta taking power by coup and then writing themselves an amnesty into the constitution.

I don't know the answer , other than the Senate block this Bill and the PTP see sense and and put through the original unadulterated amnesty bill through, but I do know the answer isn't the democratic party in its present shape or form.

Back pedaling are you.

You don't know the answer and are unwilling to change the present government.

In other words you still back them and all there doings. Back peddle all you want but we know you now and what you stand for.